Clean Wehrmacht Myth: Necessary? feat. Prof. Neitzel

[@aww2historian]

Pr. Neitzel is incredibly observant! Please include him and other skilled professors in future videos!

[@lolbrigader]

Always high quality with him in it

[@EvilGNU]

Mr Neitzel is actually sorta famous for an historian in germany. Has worked with mainstream media before and contributed to several lets say "better" documentaries. Awesome guy tho and excellent academic work he puts out.

[@kristian2353]

Yes, brilliant guy! Very interesting interview.

[@austint7533]

@@EvilGNU he’s in just about every ww2 documentary out there. I immediately knew he was talking about Sonke from the title

[@bjornodin]

Isn't that supposed to be Ph.D? Not that I really care 😉 He manages to be incisive and critical, without coming off as arrogant. He is a compendium of all things military for a narrow period, but possibly the most violent and complicated we've been through on this 3rd rock in orbit. I'm most impressed with his impressive knowledge of the zeitgeist in multiple political spheres and how he traces it to our times! There are massive plots and conspiracies afoot here! They will shape their future into what we have now, and hope the outcome is peace and prosperity. For the most part, I'd call this one a success!!! Europe is prosperous, so is the US and for some reason the biggest enemies are now integrated into the "west". And then a short guy, this time without a stage but bald and with a giant chip on his shoulder thinks...if I could steamroll a couple of neighboring countries, then they will think I'm a cool ruler, a slick operator! And no one will dare mention that I'm short and bald.... 🧑‍🦲⛈️🌪️☄️☠️

[@Ralphieboy]

When the German Bundeswehr was created in 1955, they had to adopt a ruling that no former Waffen-SS officers could serve, only former Wehrmacht. This led them to promote the idea that the Wehrmacht was "clean" and that the SS was solely responsible for all wartime atrocities.

[@patriciabrenner9216]

Which was false. They were all criminals.

[@Seriona1]

Well they didn't have much of a choice. East Germany had zero problems recruiting any former solider into their ranks. West Germany at first tried to have a fresh army with no ties to SS or Wehrmacht and they realized that this was basically impossible and thus had no choice to accept Wehrmacht.

[@wyattpeterson6286]

Is there a book about that?

[@bigbadladnamedalasad7071]

@@patriciabrenner9216They were all criminals? For serving their country? It must be that anyone in Germany was a criminal then, hence why we bombed even the cities and citizens into rubble. I still find it interesting how every Allied country shunned and stood against Germany when they were in need yet complain and cry about how horrible Germany was when they invaded them. Like maybe it’s not a very good idea to be hostile and threatening towards a wounded and cornered animal. It might just bite back. Nevermind all that, lets just stick with the traditional narrative that Germany was 100% at fault and I’m sure nothing bad will happen again 😅😂 Just remember that history always repeats itself, just take a look at Russia. Don’t forget that they asked to join NATO in the nineties, yet were firmly rejected. Hmm…..

[@patriciabrenner9216]

@@bigbadladnamedalasad7071 Yes they were. They were criminals. I am happy German cities were bombed, not happy that any German survived. They were all either murderers and thieves or accomplices of murderers and thieves. As to Yeltsin sending a letter, ROFLOL

[@ajdintabic3516]

I love these pop-ups to videos when prof. Neitzel says something. 15:15 "They [nazis] didn't disappear, they didn't fly to the moon", and V2 video pops out xd

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

I couldn't resist, since the V-2 video should have a moon nazi joke in it, if I remember correctly.

[@PalleRasmussen]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized never change Bernard, you are an excellent fellow.

[@ns7023]

Oh, a Saturn V rocket (Op. Paperclip) would have been awesome as well

[@theconeezeanemperor1619]

Such a shame there wasnt a second Iron Skies movie. Such a shame.

[@chrisagnew2923]

I got a chuckle out of Bernhard referring to West Germany as 'Regular Germany'.

[@krautreport202]

In contrast to Diet Germany.

[@meanmanturbo]

Well, from what Neitzel said in the video that was how the East germans viewed it as well.

[@baltulielkungsgunarsmiezis9714]

@@meanmanturbo At the time yes. But these days many say; "Who would have guessed that the eastern side was the sane one."

[@infernosgaming8942]

East Germany was Germany Zero, as in the amount of industry they had after the Russians took it all.

[@SK-tr1wo]

@Ярослав Л SLAVA UKRAYINI

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

*"I felt a disturbance in Reddit, as if 6 million Wehraboos suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced"*

[@theodorechill]

Fred Leuchter says otherwise.

[@bushyrho1674]

Mr. Lincoln we share the same interests because I have been replying and seeing your comments very frequently.

[@generalfred9426]

r/ShitWehraboosSay redditors: Ah yes victory

[@jameshenderson4876]

@ By putting him in a concentration camp? Sounds like your style.

[@caryblack5985]

@@theodorechill He is a holocaust denier.

[@pRahvi0]

First you say the Germans in WW2 were not superhumans. Then you tell there were atrocities committed outside the SS. And finally, you give us proof that former supporters of Nazi regime could also support democracy. What is this? It's almost like real people are complicated beings and the history full of nuance.

[@darthcalanil5333]

I can hear TIK screaming in applaud

[@kyledonahue9315]

The only reason you would say that is because you yourself are a Nazi. I am very smart, as you can see (sarcasm).

[@Vilamus]

I really hope there is something in the building of the FRG that can be used today. Obviously, good people were duped into supporting the Nazi"s but rather than call them out, a few myths to big the people up were created and...it worked. West Germany basically bullshitted itself to being a better country than Nazi Germany and...it worked.

[@jic1]

@@Vilamus Fake it 'til you make it.

[@useodyseeorbitchute9450]

​@@kyledonahue9315 Already a Nazi? So fast? As far I remember what the media said, practically everything was a pipeline in to becoming one.

[@Matt_The_Hugenot]

"Possibly I could just continue..." Please do, I could clear a few months in my diary to listen to Professor Neitzel.

[@JimFortune]

"They didn't fly to the moon." That's what they want you to think.

[@charlesaugust8671]

Although American I was getting cognitive dissonance hearing "FRG" and "GDR" instead of "BRD" and "DDR".

[@gamecubekingdevon3]

15:20 "they did not fly to the moon" ---> *iron sky would like to know your position*

[@TheRealMathewcane]

LOL xD

[@ErokLobotomist]

Dr. Neitzel's book, Soldaten: On Fighting, Killing and Dying was one of the most eye opening WW2 reads of my life. So well researched and written. I've watched a few of your videos with him before I realized the book I've had for years was written by him. Check it out if you haven't already! This is the first time I've heard anyone mention the Post-WW2 Austrian military. Very interesting. Especially in the context of how the Wehrmacht liked to keep social groups together. Austria had a ready-made Army in the aftermath of WW2 with great levels of experience and unit cohesion.

[@tillp2671]

A very interesting video. I never thought of the necessesy of the myth. But I would say that it is important to „fight“ against the myth today. Because today it can become dangerous.

[@KokenyRichard]

It is "dangerous" until you don't understand the essence of politics and political ideologies or who the national socialists really fought against. They fought against the rothschilds and the klaus schwabs of today.

[@SdM45]

The wehrmacht weren't clean, just less dirty than the SS. And even if they were, it's not like the SS invaded all of those countries by themselves. Someone had to pave the way for the Einsatzgruppen.

[@ananthu8534]

the same way the British empire is "Clean" for Indians and Africans 😅

[@rick7424]

​@@ananthu8534Whataboutism is a fallacy.

[@dimasakbar7668]

Last time i was this early, Japan still buying warships from Britain

[@chrisgibson5267]

That makes you about 150 years old. Hats off to you old timer.

[@JagerLange]

Thank you, the both of you, for putting this set of conversations together. Very informative.

[@onetwothreefour3957]

last time i was this early poland was still further to the east

[@WWSzar]

To be fair if you go even earlier Poland had almost identical borders to its modern ones

[@onetwothreefour3957]

@@WWSzar yup. but i was never that early, no need to stroke my ego that hard

[@WWSzar]

@@onetwothreefour3957 my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined

[@lordyaromir6407]

I mean, the trade of mostly rural east for the highly industrialised west seemed like a profitable one, even though it was forced on them.

[@onetwothreefour3957]

@@lordyaromir6407 also it's great revenge against germany ;)

[@ThePhantomStarfish]

I love the three arrows video on this topic. You see a lot of people defending the wehrmacht, sometimes nazis and sometimes people who are just ill-informed by school or the history channel. Thanks for making this video.

[@filmcameras4evr45]

Three Arrows' videos are very good overall imo. The video on this topic especially so as I feel its something most overlook

[@ThePhantomStarfish]

@@filmcameras4evr45 Love film cameras as well as military history.

[@walesdoesntsuck6635]

Three arrows is a communist degen

[@Hy93Ri0n]

@@walesdoesntsuck6635 I think you mean based as fuck

[@ludwig4851]

Sadly there are historic inaccuracies in his video, he is not a historian and he often interprets events in his on way so you shouldn´t accept everything he says at face value.

[@Hammer332]

Big fan of Prof. Neitzel.

[@gavinparmar1316]

first of all, I want so say I have been an avid fan of Professor Neitzel's work for many years. The Professor always provides an unbiased detail of past events. He also shows how these events have coloured the later years' views that we now hold. This interview is a perfect example of the aforementioned statements. Second, I would like ask the professor if he will, sometime in the future, release an English translation of his book 'Deutche Krieger?'

[@NickPoeschek]

After the war, it seemed like all sides agreed to moved on from the events of the war. For example, while there were investigations into things like Unit 731, I was surprised how few Japanese soldiers faced any accountability for what they did. I’m sure many of the perpetrators ended up dying in combat later on, but there’s something chilling about unknown numbers of people who participated in the organized rape and slaughter of hundreds or thousands at a time going home and then living out the rest of their life with no accountability. I guess all sides largely put it all behind them as quickly as they could though, I’m not sure how else, say, a French company could do business with a German company in 1950.

[@v4enthusiast541]

Unit 731 got away with it because of a deal with Americans that they share their research in return for immunity. It was after this that Americans realized that Unit 731 had basically learned nothing useful, but a deal is a deal.

[@101jir]

The process of Japanese and German re-integration with the rest of the world was a very interesting thing indeed, especially when compared side by side. I always get the impression, comparing the governments and comparing interviews of soldiers from each nation, that each found itself in quite the inverse situation. In Germany, Hitler predicted that if Germany lost the war, it would be in ruins again (or mostly if it didn't go to war at all). In the end, after the war Germany was indeed in ruins. Even though it was indeed _because_ of starting the war that this occurred, I think it was very easy for a lot of German soldiers to fall into post hoc ergo prompter hoc thinking. They always seem so defensive of their actions and, while they won't say it, even their side when interviewed. But their governments were setup by the US and USSR to try and prevent Germany from ever being this way again, so it very aggressively hunts down anything that begins to suggest an association with the Nazis (as far as I know by reputation). Something that has been argued is counterproductive (something I agree with to some extent, but is beside the point I would like to focus on). Japan, on the otherhand, found itself in very much the opposite situation. Not being a western nation I suspect might have been one of the reasons we were careful about modifying its government, so as to only do what we thought was minimal and avoid giving Japanese soldiers any reasons to resist surrender. Unlike Germany, they weren't split up between powers but turned into a(n) (initially defensive) bulwark against communism in the Pacific. The soldiers were told the US would do terrible things if we managed to make it to the home islands and that they must defend their families. Instead what they received was the post-war economic "miracle." What a shock this must have been to the soldiers! Being told such things about the Americans, only to realize it was either they, or their comrades in arms them that were committing the worst of the atrocities. I notice that interviews with Japanese airmen (what I mostly watch, when I can find them) frequently show them almost in tears over the whole thing. Yet to the government, I think American lenience was misinterpreted. Probably part of why I think these soldier interviews sometimes seem to feature them speaking very negatively about their own government. I don't know much about Italy, but my impression is that much of Italy is just proud they killed Mussolini themselves.

[@fazole]

Red China was the enemy and Japan was suddenly an ally after the war. The US and some other nations fought Red China in Korea and there was no interest in creating sympathy for Red China over Unit 731 or the Nanjing massacre; especially since Japan and S. Korea were needed as part of the communist containment strategy of the US. The Cold War caused a lot of atrocities to be ignored or covered up.

[@101jir]

@@fazole Put far better than much of my rambling.

[@v4enthusiast541]

@@MrSloika- Von Braun took us to the moon, Unit 731 just had fun injecting bubonic plague into people.

[@leondosendepp585]

Love those Videos, richtig interessant, kaum jemand geht so ins Detail

[@colefulton6209]

Prof. Neitzel is my favorite guest you bring onto the show! Very wise man

[@madaro504]

I was a touch critical of the last 2 videos... I think this one is the best I've seen from this channel.

[@garnix5612]

"Nazis" and "Moon - V-2 Video recommendation pops up I am cracking up xD

[@nomobobby]

I was disappointed with my recommendations. Its a messy list of historical documentaries, BGM and music I'd listen to lately.

[@SpiritOfMontgomery]

@@nomobobby Afghan Dan turns to Deutsche Dan

[@clazy8]

Fascinating account of the myth and its function. Great interview!

[@ivankotan4993]

At the beginning of the vidoe prof. Neitzel rises his hand suspiciously high to greet us. XD

[@jurisprudens]

Don't tell to the German government. They are going to ban raising hands too high.

[@pointlesspublishing5351]

Thx to these videos, i bought this book to myself for christmas. Really looking forward to read it.

[@nothankyou7357]

I think a larger and more important factor in the acceptance of democracy on the part of West Germans was not the 'clean Wehrmacht' myth or the puffing up of Wehrmacht achievements, but instead the presence of tens of thousands of foreign troops combined with the looming threat of the Soviet Union right across the border. Radical right-wing politics had been fully discredited by the Nazi experience, just as a politically powerful military had been utterly discredited in Japan.

[@patnor7354]

You misspelled national socialism as right-wing politics...

[@Etzelsschizo]

@@patnor7354 what?

[@treyriver5676]

as an American, I often heard the Tiger and T34 were the best ... with a little bit of research I know know that the Tiger was built for very narrow use and when outside that intent often had a lot of issues (transport being high on the list) and that the T34 is no better then the Sherman and in some ways not as good. Both Grandfathers visted Europe on the "American plan" France with the 3rd Armor and Italy via Salareno (36th)

[@orign4l]

The soccer thing made him true German.

[@robfl100]

I'm honestly not sure how the "professional super army" and "clean wehrmacht" myths are connected to each other, other than the fact that they're both wrong. Having a high tech army with cool tiger tanks has nothing to do with whether or not the army was involved in war crimes

[@looinrims]

It’s how they looked at themselves, it’s somewhat a continuation of the WW1 “undefeated field army” myth

[@HSMiyamoto]

So "The Clean Wehrmacht Myth" and the "Wheraboo" myth come from the same source!

[@Waterflux]

West Germany's experience with reintegrating ex-Wehrmacht officers and ex-Nazi bureaucrats is not all that surprising. South Korea experienced something similar after 1945. Its new Republic of Korea Army was dominated by Koreans who used to be Imperial Japanese Army officers. Ditto for the police. Civil service was no different. Meanwhile, North Korea suffered some 'brain drain' between 1945 and 1950. The North Korean communist government nationalized industries inside North Korea and carried out land redistribution as soon as it took over, resulting in exodus of former landlords, industrialists, and other professionals. Interestingly, this exodus further polarized the two Koreas as South Korea gained an influx of North Koreans who were right-leaning. Ironically, despite this 'brain drain' North Korea actually enjoyed better quality of living than South Korea until the 1970s. (North Korea was more industrialized than South Korea due to the former's proximity to natural resources like iron and coal. South Korean industrialization did not skyrocket until the 1980s.) I need to double-check, but I think as many as 2 million North Koreans might have fled to South Korea. By the way, one of those who fled was Jeong Joo-Young, the founder of now globally famous Hyundai Group. Overall, these North Koreans played important role in South Korea's eventually economic rise.

[@OchotaJack]

Reminds me Heinz Reinefarth - butcher of Warsaw who lived well in West Germany. He was even elected as mayor of his city and MP to local parliament. And regarding right wing movement in Germany. I had an occasion to take part in lecture by German ambassador to Poland. One of my colleagues asked why there is so hundreds of neo nazi groups in Germany. Mr ambassador who happen to be former head of BfV (counter intelligence office) answered that it is caused by all federal efforts not to let them unify into single party ..

[@cobraferrariwars]

I cared for a man who was there, and this was his situation: "If you said anything against Hitler or against the Regeirung, it was up against the wall by sundown." and, "We were not afraid. They [the officers] blew a whistle and, if you didn't do what they told you, they shot you." And, "I sat in front of the company. They stood five or six men against the wall and they shot them. After them came others. I see everything, the dead, high and low." Further, "In Russia, you must be correct. If you complained, they put you up against the wall and killed you." And, "They hung or shot the partisans against the wall, also deserters with a cannon." How would you or I have acted if we knew we would be killed if we did not immediately follow orders? My friend didn't fight for the Fuhrer. He fought for his own survival, terrified of his own officers and of the Soviets. Look at the casualties in Pzjg Abt. 559 and Kampfgruppe Das Reich. What do I care about today's narrative? We should care about the truth. If we don't know the truth, how can we stop this from happening, again, in our own countries? To make things more difficult, we have our own lying MSM to deal with.

[@ayli9]

It was interesting to learn about the role of this myth in shaping and gluing together the BRD society. And an interesting info for me about the blaming approach and officer corps of the DDR

[@ananthu8534]

the same way the British empire is "Clean" for Indians and Africans 😅

[@darkknight6432]

Jesus Christ the Whataboutism unlike the Wehrmacht nobody denies the claims that the British Empire committed any atrocities

[@darthcalanil5333]

Man, I love listening to Prof. Neitzel. If he's ever going to do a public lecture or something like that at the Panzer Museum Munster or some nearby place, I'm definitely going to be at the forefront in attendance. edit: Munster not Münster

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

Munster not Münster, this is really important, because else you end up somewhere completely different. It happens rather regular, doesn't help that google maps changes to Münster all the time.

[@darthcalanil5333]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Big ops 😅. I have the Deutsches Panzermuseum Munster bookmarked in Munster, and another different museum also bookmarked in Münster. I guess that's why autocorrect changed it. It's only a 300 km error. Who's counting XD

[@grizwoldphantasia5005]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized That's rather cheesy of Google.

[@Unclemork]

I'd like to hear more about the history of the East German army. How were their doctrines and philosophies different?

[@freezer20cm64]

I am recently watch this video about GDR army kzbin.info/www/bejne/j4fcZp-Pnppqfac

[@freezer20cm64]

But in this video they say that GDR army continued wermacht traditions and try not to be "socialist" army.

[@jurisprudens]

@@freezer20cm64 Yes, I also noticed the discrepancy. They probably retained the look, but did not retain the spirit.

[@jurisprudens]

@@matztertaler2777 What kind of book is that? A combat manual? Or a day-to-day manual?

[@jurisprudens]

@@matztertaler2777 For sure, the lies repeated over and over becomes truth at some point... ps I am Russian myself ;)

[@maciejniedzielski7496]

@Military History 06:40 if you watch archive films of Volksarmee for example of Guard changing in East Berlin - they kept in contrary some elements of even Prussian tradition 🎶 uniform elements etc.. So I don't agree that they completely broke tradition however what Professeur says states that West German Bundeswehr was more like with some Wehrmacht's nostalgie and a bit continuity and East German army wanted to be at least ideologically new socialist army. Very good interview by the way explaining "clean" Wehrmacht myth

[@maciejniedzielski7496]

Check that last Guard Changing 1990 kzbin.info/www/bejne/g6i2iq1uZ9BkgaM

[@petermarckhgott9908]

Imagine a run down historic building: GDR gutted it but kept the facade, FRG put some cladding and new paint on it.

[@BoomVang]

I rode a plane flight next to an uncommunicative German vet of eastern front. He only angrily repeated to nobody in particular "I never brought my horse into a church!". I interpret this as probably he was ordered to things against his ethics, but this was one gesture within his control to show respect. Leaving a horse out in a blizzard can risk it to be stolen or eaten after all.

[@ludwig4851]

Interesting how much attention the clean wehrmacht myth nowdays gets when it was already cleared up 30 years ago in germany. Side note i wish for youtube to implement a feature that you are not allowed to comment until you watched the video, why do people ask questions or comment about topics that are answered in the video that is fucking irritating.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

1) well, a lot of people still don't know. 2) yeah, I know that problem with people commenting rather "interesting" things.

[@procinctu1]

Thank you Sir! That was an amazing presentation. We should all look to understand one another rather than rushing into unnecessary conflicts.

[@stefanschlesinger9118]

Da schau ich als Deutscher zwei Deutschen zu, die Englisch sprechen. Awesome :D

[@futfutfut]

Ist Bernhard nicht Österreicher?

[@Suchtel10]

@@futfutfut Macht das nen Unterschied? Österreicher sind auch ethnisch Deutsche, auch wenn sie in einem anderen Staat leben und ihr Deutschtum leugnen um sich vor Hitler zu drücken

[@futfutfut]

@@Suchtel10 Ach ja. DARUM bin ich auch Ösi. Weil ich Angst habe, dass die Welt erfährt, dass Hitler auch einer war. Stimmt. Genau so is das.

[@1südtiroltechnik]

@@Suchtel10 Du musst unterscheiden zwischen Deutsch sein als Staatsform und ethnische Deutsche. Österreicher sind Österreicher, keine Deutschen. (Nation) Sollen wir alle Leute die im heutigen Österreich leben gleich setzten mit den Germanen? Wie kannst du Österreicher Deutsche nennen, wenn die mehrheitlich von den Bajuwaren, Kelten, Slawen, Rätern, Norikern abstammen? Sind Norddeutsche ethnisch verwand mit Bayern? Diese ganze Einteilung nach Nationen geht mir so aufn Sack, da kommt nur Ärger dabei raus. Ich kann die Mehrheit der Kärntner und Tiroler auch ethnisch Italienisch machen, da das alles zur Römerzeit zur Region Italia gehörte. Geht aber nicht da die Nation Italien erst seit weniger als 300 Jahren existiert!

[@tjb7284]

@@1südtiroltechnik Norddeutsche sind ethnisch mit den Bayern vermutlich so nah oder so entfernt verwandt wie die Bayern mit den Niederländern oder Dänen. Mit den Oberösterreichern bin ich als Niederbayer natürlich wesentlich näher verwandt. Historisch-politische Entwicklungen ergaben, dass Leute, die nur wenige Kilometer entfernt von mir wohnen und den nahezu gleichen Dialekt sprechen, einem anderen Staat angehören.

[@Anonymous-bc4dl]

Looks like the algorithym doesnt like this video :/ I spend much time on YT and often check my sub-box but didnt see this vid until 2 days after its release

[@louisswanepoel1614]

15:17 xD fly to the moon. And then a casual pop-up for a video about the V2 rocket. Nice work Also I enjoy these interviews

[@argusflugmotor7895]

The fact that only Wittemann has flowers on his grave is so sad

[@cccpredarmy]

"Hans, are we the baddies?" (c)

[@alexknight5940]

Will Prof. Neitzel's book be translated into English? Soldaten - On Fighting, Killing and Dying was such a fantastic resource during my undergraduate military history degree, so if its anything to go on I'd love to get my hands on this new book as well!!

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

there is something in the works from what I know.

[@misterbeach8826]

As a German-American, who became a historian at a German university, I always found this topic, or this myth, one of the most influential and important for post-1945 Germany. Unfortunately, I am in a subway, so I can look it up, but I read once a book that covered the American assessment of the situation. Neitzel talks a lot about the German perception but, as we know it, the German opinion at such matters was rather insignificant to the Allies, even after Adenauer. Adenauer had even trouble to join NATO in 1955, after years of negotiations, even threats. The American position on that matter was: Germany is in this regard to be treated the same way as Japan, because of the Cold War. The idea was that eventually, over time, the "Old-Nazi" problem would disappear. On the other hand, I read once a book by the historian Prof. Jonathon House, if I'm not mistaken, who is a leading authority on Soviet military history. House said that for a long time the Wehrmacht was considered by the Allies as a "loser", post-war, of little interest to how modern warfare should be done because of course, they lost the war. So, many Wehrmacht topics were considered out of date and rather a national German problem of little interest to the Allies. This changed when the US lost Vietnam. After Vietnam, according to House, the US Army all the sudden developed a big interest in the Wehrmacht, interviewing the remaining living German generals, and studying their books and memorials -- because since the Germans fought differently ("Angriffstaktik", different freedom of command than the US Army), after Vietnam, they were indeed unsure whether the Germans, who were able to hold against an (after 1942/43 superior) enemy such as the Red Army, well, how did they do it. And so if what House is suggesting is true, then ... we can imagine what would have happened if the US Army and the Allies would have developed the same interest in the Wehrmacht 1945-1965, right? I doubt Neitzel's idea that the old Wehrmacht personnel was necessary for the Bundeswehr. The Allies changed SO much after WW2. If it would have been important to them, they would just do what they pleased to do. The German ideas played almost no role. Rather, I think that they had so little interest in the Wehrmacht and the Wehrmacht's self-perception that they left it to the Germans to handle the problems which in turn led to the rise of this myth (or historical narrative). After all, the USA did exactly the same in Japan. And it's funny that the Americans had a way bigger interest in the Wehrmacht's interpretation of the Red Army post-1945, where they learned more about their new enemy, than the methods, atrocities, and horrors of the Wehrmacht itself. (Edit: I often wondered why EXACTLY changed the Allies their mind on Germany after 1949. Common sense is that they did it because of "Cold War", but what does it mean exactly? A book I read once covered this question in the following way: If you want to understand the American perception of Germany, study the American perspective on Germany in NATO and the UN. In both, Germany has a rather strange role until today, right? You would think that Germany is a major NATO partner but it is not. A rather unpopular analysis of the 1950s is that Germany was considered by the US barely as a first defensive against the Red Army. Expandable, badly trained and equipped, it had little to no chance to survive. Even the optimistic war plans assumed that the Red Army would reach Netherlands and France before the NATO troops could even arrive. Therefore, Germany and the Wehrmacht ... might have been in the Allied eyes not as important as many German post-war Wehrmacht historians want to believe which one of the reasons why many German chancellors increased the US military presence in Germany, and therefore increasing the German-US ties in this regard, i.e. regarding nuclear missiles.)

[@jurisprudens]

It's interesting that Neitzel mentioned that the East German army broke with much more traditions of Wehrmacht. Because everyone's impression seems to have largely been to the contrary - East German army's uniform and military drill, at least, looked much similar to Wehrmacht. Unlike Bundeswehr, whose uniform was Americanized from early on...

[@volkerklass7741]

Well, the NVA did see itself as the "true heirs" of _prussian_ military tradition, especially of the liberation war period of the early 19th century, same as the GDR did see itself as the true Germany (cf. SED propaganda claiming the western sectors were "leaving the national association" by founding the Federal Republic) but that explicitly excluded the Wehrmacht. In GDR propaganda there was a continuity of liberation from the German Peasants' War via the liberation from Napoleon to the founding of the GDR. What's really interesting is the relation of the two societies had (and have) to their respective militaries: While people in the Federal Republic were very sceptical of even HAVING an army, and have a rather distant relation to the Bundeswehr until today, the Democratic Republic was a deeply militaristic state.

[@jurisprudens]

@@volkerklass7741 I remember reading one Russian political analyst, who summarized the differences between east and west Germany in this way. The traditional German “self-image” involved two coexisting parts: “German the Industrious Burger” and “German the Knight in the Shining Armour”. And supposedly, to “denazyfy” the German identity, West Germany eliminated the “Knight” and emphasised the “Burger”, while East Germany got rid of the “Burger” and put the “Knight” at the forefront. Perhaps , it is all BS, but I don’t know ;)

[@whiskeytangosierra6]

Ack, only 3 likes when I fired this up - and some clown on a backhoe dug up some lines. So I just finished watching. Prof. Neitzel really hit a point on Normandy - I asked myself what names I knew on the the German side and yup - the same two names.

[@ns7023]

Also von Kluge and Kurt Meyer (commander of the 12 Pz SS Div)

[@MeatGoblin88]

finally we get to see a video of the professor. the last videos was just a still picture of him

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

nope, wrong channel, this is the fourth interview on this channel on the main channel there are indeed 2 videos with a still picture.

[@dongately2817]

It would be interesting to see how the war is taught in modern German military institutions.

[@jurisprudens]

I heard that German special forces, unlike Americans, refused to kill a terrorist leader in Afghanistan as soon as they found him. "We had no right to - he did not do anything aggressive!"

[@birkli2959]

@@jurisprudens the idea of having to play by democratic rules is gladly very strong, so trying to detain and put them on trial always has priority over extrajudicial executions

[@Praxeus514]

@@jurisprudens so American forces shoot terrorists who surrender? Is that an official policy? Surely you have references and aren’t just making a knee jerk anti-American comment to compensate for something.

[@jurisprudens]

@@Praxeus514 I never said anywhere that he “surrendered”. The guy was just there, walking free. The snipers were to take him down. The German snipers found “no reasons” to shoot him outright

[@Praxeus514]

@@jurisprudens so they gave him a stern talking to no doubt. 🤣

[@leonst.7471]

I looked a little bit into Prof. Neitzel and i realized he was part of some of my favourite documentaries like for example ZDF history and many other domestic productions.

[@thomaslinton1001]

Generalleutnant of the Wehrmacht Rodolf Bamler served not with the East German Army but with the Stasi until 1962, retireing at age 66.

[@TheStugbit]

Those reflexions on Germany History you guys are doing are just very interesting. Too many things at play back then, difficult to judge all those tragedies of History that happens. But tragedies aside, it's nice to see also a political perception taking from the military/strategic points of view. We tend to think of the military aspects of wars and such isolated from the political ones, but military decisions also are political decisions in many cases. It is not simply pure objective and technical decisions going. What would also be interesting is having reflexions on the periods earlier to the World Wars. 19th century has many things to enlighten us on what happened later I guess, and it's not as often covered. 19th century was somehow a calm century on wars, at least in the West, but many things developed there.

[@johnshepherd8687]

The organization and manning of the Army not withstanding, the GDR was the successor State to the Third Reich. It's practices of control and security were identical. As a West German friend from grad school put it "East Germans did not have a change of government since 1933." You see a lot of western myth making about German military superiority with Battleship Bismarck. The Royal Navy in particular pushed the superiority myth to explain the loss of HMS Hood. Not only was the Bismarck not the most powerful battleship in commission in May of 1941, the USS North Carolina was, but the Bismarck was inferior to modern British, American, Italian and Japanese battleships.

[@tylerperkinson1677]

Do you mean contemporary battleships? Can you elaborate? I was under the impression that Bismarck was built to be more of a raiding battleship (maybe lighter armor, and sacrifices made to give it more speed and range), but that it had some superior technology and equipment in comparison with most of its contemporaries.

[@johnshepherd8687]

@@tylerperkinson1677 Your impression is based on myth. In terms of combat systems the Iowa and South Dakota classes were the most advanced. The North Carolinas were upgraded to the later class' standards. In terms of firepower, the Yamatos, Iowas and Littorios were far superior. Even the 16"/45 with Mark 5 AP rounds on the 1920 era Colorados was significantly more powerful the Busmarck's 15" guns Unfortunately for the Italians, their quality control on ammunition was poor. In terms speed both the Iowas and Litirrios were faster. Armor protection is more than just armor thickness. Placement is just as important. The Bismarck used a pre-Nevada Class distributed armor scheme which wasted armor protection on non vital spaces. The Bismarck had other flaws the left critical unprotected against peer opponents. While she very well compartmented, the Bisnarck ranks well down the list in protection. I would them in this order: Yamato, KGV, South Dakota, Iowa with Bismarck, North Carolina and Litorio all about the same.

[@tylerperkinson1677]

@@johnshepherd8687 thanks for response. So are you ranking the Bismarck equivalent with Iowa?

[@tylerperkinson1677]

@@johnshepherd8687 and what aboit operational range?

[@johnshepherd8687]

@@tylerperkinson1677 The US Battleships by far?

[@Charlisimo123]

That thumbnail though...

[@dominantasmr578]

My little pogchamp

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

@@dominantasmr578 *"Ugh, fine! I guess you are my little pog champ, come here!"* - *Adolf Hitler to the Wehrmacht after praising the SS too much*

[@AbrahamLincoln4]

When Weeaboos and Wehraboos are merged together, you get this.

[@sLiv256]

Is really great :)

[@bezahltersystemtroll5055]

@@AbrahamLincoln4 wholesome 😄

[@John.McMillan]

People seem to often forget atrocities are commited by everyone. No side is clean.

[@kleinerprinz99]

Just ordered the book and some others from Prof Neitzel; good price for Hardcover! :)

[@daveross3226]

I have been waiting 50 years for the content presented in this video. Thank you. Please keep up the great content.

[@davidmeek8017]

Excellent! Well done. Thank you! Aloha

[@Tommy-5684]

is there any indication of iff and when Deutsche Krieger will be translated in to English. i probably could reed it in german if i realy tried but i just wandered

[@bozo5632]

I wander iff you could realy reed it in English.

[@Tommy-5684]

@@bozo5632 well a number of his other books like Soldaten and tapping Halters generals have been translated so you never know

[@DarkFire515]

Was going to ask the same thing. Sounds like a fascinating read so hopefully it will be translated at some point.

[@sinaboxter]

I wonder how the 20 July plot helped this myth. Was is used in the postwar Germany as an argument to show Wehrmacht officers were anti-Nazi?

[@benjamingrezik373]

the officers were probably mainly nazis but thats only like 5% or less

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

@@benjamingrezik373 from what we can tell the german officer corps was fairly anti-Nazi, but only the lower-ranking officers (led by the colonels) were to the extent they acted upon it to any real extent. the higher officers were more elitist, looking down on the Nazis more than opposing them (and of course often helping them).

[@sinaboxter]

My comment is about whether the 20 July plot was used as an argument for clean Wehrmacht myth. The replies are actually try to support the myth which was not what I intended.

[@eyeli160]

The 20 July plot was less about Hitlers war crimes, the officers did not care about those. What they cared about was that Germany was losing the war and Hitler did not want to surrender. So they tried to kill him and than sue for peace. Although it was probably used to reinforce the myth since it is incredibly easy to change the motives after the fact. (Just look at the JFK killer, he probably just hated JFK and saw an opportunity, but there are enough people who believe that he was a member of, or hired by the CIA, FBI, KGB, etc)

[@alatamore]

Great video. It’s an interesting debate for sure. So much of public understanding of WW2 is mainly fictional concepts passed down. I always felt that the western Allies let many Germans off far too lightly for their crimes during the Nazi period, but to your point those people were essential to establishing a stable, functional society in West Germany. Allowing the society to retain that shred of dignity and pride in the skill of their Army helped to bolster the nation, which could well have collapsed or required far more extensive occupation to function. Of course the necessities of the Cold War played a part in the US and UK being willing to compromise in the interest of a strong, capable West German nation and military. Thank you for this series (and I loved the add of the V2 rocket link when he spoke about the moon).

[@CarlosSempereChen]

Along those lines, I’d say our de-Baathification attitude in Iraq was responsible for a lot of the postwar governance failures there. The German model may have been a better one to follow.

[@noneednoneed5752]

16:25 ... So "we were the best army in the world and we couldn't have won if it wasn't for that fool Hitler" *Hitler in the Afterlife outraged to have to do overtime for Germany without pay*

[@elisekehle8520]

3x as many Nazis per capita tried and convicted in the DDR as in the Bundesrepublik. They took it seriously

[@LIETUVIS10STUDIO1]

This does posit a fascinating hypothesis - what if the reason Federal Germany didn't turn out like Weimar Republic, what if the reason there was no stab in the back myth, was the purposeful creation of a myth?

[@nomcognom2332]

Very interesting video!

[@SuperCrazf]

That thumbnail made me almost lose it XD

[@franksocha643]

Great discussion

[@chrishuerlimann9726]

Awesome and insightful. Thanks keep it up

[@juanzulu1318]

If the early German Republic had acted differently and exluded all Wehrmacht soldiers from the new society it might have resulted in a somewhat similar disaster like the one which was created by the US admin in Irak. The myth was therefore a necessary self deception and the less problematic solution out of two.

[@SeasideDetective2]

Sadly, I think the myth WAS necessary for (West) Germany's continuance, if only for purely psychosocial reasons. Too many people always confuse forgiving and forgetting, believing that if you can't forget, you NEVER can forgive. And if you can't forgive someone, you'll never be able to work with them.

[@maciejniedzielski7496]

07:16 Austrian Army after WWII was very poorly equiped. My aunt's husband (true Austrian fellow) told me that when he did his military service in 1970ies they still used Rudfunk from 1930ies in his company and gesungen (ils sont chanté) sang 🎶 Wehrmacht's songs by the way...

[@matthiuskoenig3378]

i mean to be fair on the point of wehrmacht songs, most are about girls back home and lack references to Nazis or their ideology for the most part. one of them was even adopted by the allies during the war (translated to english), and i know panzerlied became associated with tankers world wide to some exent(a singaporean tanker i know says they sang it when he did his national service in the 90s)

[@nepnep2010]

10/10 thumbnail

[@terrisommella720]

"Crazy madmen on a leash, or young men who lost their way?"

[@privadoentrevistas]

Most of the myth of the clean Werhmarcht was introduced by Guderian through his memories and talks with the British and the Americans. Also, it is important to remember that Manstein and Guderian were hired by Konrad Adenauer as advisors to rebuild the German Army.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

The historical division under Halder with dozens if not hundred German officers writing reports for the US were likely far more influential. Also we are talking about Clean Wehrmacht Myth in Germany for the most part in this video, so you likely did not watch before commenting, congratulations.

[@privadoentrevistas]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Actually, I did watch the video before commenting, it was great! Thanks a lot!

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

thanks, sorry for the friendly fire ;)

[@lovablesnowman]

Another excellent video. Keep them coming

[@Elfenvampir]

I got more and more respect for Professor Neizel. I had my doubts about him because of some ZDF dokumentarys, but currently i realise that they somehow placed his commentarys more in the way they want to tell the story. It seems like ZDF-history often tells the old myths, and they quote him out of Kontext.

[@flyzart8148]

Documentaries usually do that. They want to sell an idea, not facts. It is quite rare to find common documentaries which are quite accurate.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

some want to tell stories, some want to tell facts, some want to make an analysis, etc. some want to tell you what to think, some want to tell you how to think, some want you to make up your own mind, etc.

[@flyzart8148]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Yes, the latter sadly is very present on this platform, mostly being far-right and another lesser amount of the far-left. However, the thing which is for me the best example against your average TV documentary is that it will speak of Battles like Stalingrad or so as "the German came and were defeated" and show little of the effects of the battle other than "the Soviets are now winning" as if all the issues present on the Soviet sides such as food shortages, lack of resources, etc, just disappeared. They don't give the bigger picture which is what really makes you understand the second world war.

[@logibear64]

I've read a couple of books by Prof Neitzel. The problem I have with his book about "Tapping Hitler's Generals: Transcripts of Secret Conversations, 1942-45" is that he cites only a few sample conversations as proof all generals and soldiers believed and did such and such. What he doesn't take into account is that humans especially soldiers lie and embellish events they might have took part in or may or may not have witnessed. It's an all too common mistake and unfortunately makes it into history books. The best example if those that testified at the Winter Soldier hearings during the Vietnam war. Many of the witnesses lied or embellished (including John Kerry) the military service told about atrocities they witnessed or took part in. When checked out they were bogus. So I would not take any story by a soldier whether freely admitted or secretly recorded without some further research. People lie to look like a bigshot.

[@mryouben]

Danke Sönke

[@PalleRasmussen]

110th. Nothing here was new to me though, I just like Bernard and Sönke. Keep it up both of you, and merry XMas.

[@onetwothreefour3957]

this content isnt necessarily made for germans but internationals interested in germany's recent history

[@PalleRasmussen]

I am not German. It is for people interested in military history (hence the name), and it is an excellent channel. One of the very best there is, consistently objective and polite and nice; I would buy Bernard a beer any day.

[@mididoctors]

This channel gets better and burrows deeper into the truth

[@murphy7801]

French foreign legion was very busy with German speaking recruits post WW2.

[@DavidSiebert]

As an American I was never fond of the Tiger tank. To me it seemed too big, fragile, and expensive/complex to be a good weapon of war. I am not fond of the German Super anything myth. Yes German developed the V2, V1, and Me262 but the US developed the B-29, nuclear weapons, advanced radars, proximity fuses, and fire control systems. Germans developed some great subs but the US Gato class boats where also very good. The difference was that the US and UK could mass produce B-29s, Aircraft carriers, advanced fire control systems. Both sides made some really big advances but tended to concentrate on different fields. They US if needed could have started to churn out P-80s like cookies if the M-262 became a big enough threat.The ME=163 on the other hand was a great way to kill German pilots.

[@papaaaaaaa2625]

I agree. And we should always remember that A. Germany and the third Reich started military rearming and research way earlier than the USA, GB and France. Just remember that the Tiger Tank project was started 1937. At this time the USA didn't had any Armored Forces at all. Or the British Matilda II Tank, a Tank on a Budget. Same with France. And B. Germany was broken in 1938 because of the giant rearming. Germanys export dropped in these years and all these Workers and ordinary employees where "paid" with Mefo Bills, imaginary money. Germany had to start a war in 1939 because they in the end they where broken and they needed to rob and rape other countries.

[@MD21037]

There were no "⁷Clean" Armies in WWII.

[@baneofbanes]

No, but some were dirtier than others.

[@tertmade9769]

Germans, Soviets and Japanese had done the worst humanity had ever seen

[@laisphinto6372]

Wrong they did only Things with modern Tech that happened before. Do WE forget that the allies Americans werent Clean , the french and especially britain we're colonial Empires ? Do atrocities only Matter If they are europeans or asians?

[@tertmade9769]

@@laisphinto6372 No one deny Allied war crimes during WW2, I just point out the obvious 3, no one on any sides were clean, not even "lesser of all evils"

[@fabovondestory]

* cough * Der Landser * cough *

[@majungasaurusaaaa]

The only traditional thing about the NVA were their uniforms and marching.

[@od1452]

It is interesting that the people who lived through that hell decided it was enough. I remember thinking people like the red brigades were looking for something the already had.but couldn't see .. .. It could use improvement but not destruction.

[@jurisprudens]

The reds never look for the society to be peaceful and harmonious. They always want destruction of the "oppressive structures", not improvement.

[@Joe125g20]

How much did knowledge of the Treaty of Versailles and how it led to WWII put off the Allies in treating Germany poorly after WWII? Was there a significant argument that Versailles shouldn't be repeated? I know Stalin wanted to reduce Germany to an agrarian state, but the WAllies wanted to keep Germany industrial to fight the Soviets in a future war. Thoughts @Military History Not Visualised ?

[@babychuma1]

Would the two Germany's fought each other?

[@theonlymadmac4771]

@@babychuma1 of course they would have had. I was a soldier in the old ( not re-unified) Bundeswehr and it wouldn‘t have bothered me much. I had been in the GDR and other eastern bloc countries and was not impressed with what I saw. Doesn‘t matter as it would have become a nuclear war any way

[@babychuma1]

@@theonlymadmac4771 hey thanks for answering, I know the history we always planned that, I'm American, horrible to contemplate. I was kind of hoping that Germans would refuse to engage other Germans.

[@thomasvogelsinger4007]

Great video

[@polyhistorphilomath]

Great reference to Iron Sky 15:17

[@SN-xk2rl]

Neitzel is a serious intellectual and scholar. Thanks for doing these. Neitzel's comments on the GDR armed forces demonstrate the moral truth of Brecht's choice post WW2.

[@terraflow__bryanburdo4547]

Didn't the USSR provide advisors for GDR?

[@jurisprudens]

He mentioned it: most officers with experience in Wehrmacht were fired in the 1950s, and the new army was built around the Soviet manuals and tactics.

[@pieterwillembotha6719]

I think the most glaring myth of that war was the myth of the Clean Allies.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

I haven't come across it yet.

[@pieterwillembotha6719]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Are you saying that there is not truth to allied atrocities, or that people deny it?

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

That people deny Allied war crimes or blame it only on a subfaction.

[@pieterwillembotha6719]

@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Maybe it's just Hollywood then.

[@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized]

Not even there see Saving Private Ryan or Band of Brothers

[@cancer422]

Very interesting!

[@killraven123]

No one made it out of ww2 "clean"

[@caryblack5985]

Some planned murder before they went to wat. The Wehrmacht agreed to support murder squads in in the USSR in March1941 before a single German soldier entered the soil of the USSR.

[@killraven123]

@@caryblack5985 and the soviets planned to deport people who opposed them to gulags in order to work them to death in the countries they invaded, irregardless that's not the point I was trying to make. I said no one made it out of that war "clean", regardless of what they set out to do originally.