Preliminary hearing for James and Jennifer Crumbley (Feb. 24, 2022) -- Part 2

[@candicehiles729]

Their defense is clearly “no, the parents didn’t do anything to stop it but none else did either” they’re grasping at straws

[@caterinawilliams998]

Correct, it's not going to fly

[@bthny7955]

These questions the defense is asking the counselor, make the parents look even worse.. even more out of touch!

[@rebeccamesser2850]

These defense "lawyers " are asking questions that lead right to the culpability of their clients! I commend them for convicting their clients!

[@sirvilhelmofyonderland]

It’s obvious a horse wears the pants in this family

[@jamiemiller7316]

You know you're a bad parent when your only defense is that the school didn't do anything either.

[@braindirt7499]

How can this be a fair trial when lawyers are inept? Still, corrupt Karen who keeps defending the negligent staff at Oxford high seems to be winning. She met with the incompetent counselor prior to him taking the stand. She knows he commited gross negligence and misled the parents when he said Ethan was suicidal not homicidal.

[@braindirt7499]

@@jamiemiller7316 if Hopkins had said to these parents Ethan was homicidal instead of suicidal, then things would've unfolded very differently. Hopkins is a trained professional who failed to do his job. He failed these parents, failed Ethan, and everyone at Oxford high. Part of his job as school counselor is to prevent tragedies like these and keep all students safe. He should be facing charges, but for some reason corrupt Karen is letting him get away with his negligence and culpability.

[@markgado8782]

@@braindirt7499 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️ Keep assuming numbnuts. He didn't know about the unlocked gun. He didn't know a lot of things the parents knew. Your argument falls flat on its face.. Like you when you step on your numbnuts... 🤦‍♂️

[@marymary20]

He is the defense attorney treating this gun store clerk as an expert on state and federal gun laws? She is not. She should call her own handgun law expert to get all this stuff on the record.

[@candicehiles729]

@Charlotte Ferrari-Girault absolutely. But I bet it’ll be hard to find someone else to defend you

[@ritamariekelley4077]

I wondered why the judge allowed this.

[@darkness2520]

Perhaps the attorney was trying to show that the gun seller was not an expert on gun laws, and because she sells guns, she should be. That raises the question of how the gun seller may have made a mistake somewhere along the line. In a jury trial, that possibility might shift some of the blame onto the seller, and off of the parents. That one possible mistake would probably not be enough by itself, but if during the trial they pointed out several possible mistakes, it might cause doubt in someone's mind, and they only need one person in the jury to have doubt, for their client to be acquitted.

[@sweetpeas8206]

Mr Hopkins, bless you. I wish I had a school counselor like you. My life would be very different if I had a high school counselor that cared as deeply as you do. You did the right thing for Ethan but unfortunately his parents were too self absorbed to listen. I pray you do not feel guilty for the deaths of the students that day. Place the accountability where it belongs: on the backs of those parents and Ethan. PLEASE keep working in your role. No doubt you’ve made a positive impact on many young adults.

[@newhorizon4066]

- Oh Lord please help us! Yeah, and that will assure we get more shootings at schools that employ such incompetent push-over. He cared more about a mentally unhinged kid with murderous impulse than the fact that that kid was allowed to mingle (with backpack unchecked) with other kids while all the evidence was showing that he was itching to use his new toy (gun) on other people? This counselor and the dean should be accountable for their big time failure/incompetence. I hope the victims parents sue the pants off these two.

[@Prof_K7]

@@newhorizon4066 Extremely WELL said! I absolutely agree and anything else deduced from his testimony is downright incompetently insane!

[@lindatroyer1396]

I feel these two people should never have had a child, they ruined his life , every one should have parents who will do everything teey can to protect him!😢😢

[@lavyap676]

I hold the school accountable too. Someone should have asked if the family owns guns. They should have searched his things at school in the presence of the parents. More than the drawings the text is alarming. It indicates that the boy has intention to do something bad. And there already have been so many school shootings in US, isn't it obvious to check the bag?

[@lavyap676]

If I am a killer why will I tell the counselor that I intend to cause harm! How stupid to just believe what the killer said blindly!

[@justanothersmith6012]

Before this case is over, I predict James Crumbley will want to get separate counsel. Jennifer Crumbley keeps trying to make eye contact with him & he’s not so much as glancing at her(that I can see). Also, the prosecution is making her out to be slightly worse than James. That may be a strategy they’re using to get one to turn on the other, or that may be me reading too much into it.😬

[@candicehiles729]

Yes! I’m not going to be surprised when he gets a separate attorney for the trial. These lawyers are digging their own graves. I would get new counsel by now 😂😬

[@Wildoleander1]

I agree with you 👍🏽

[@bthny7955]

Now that this case is going to trial don’t be surprised if mom and dad get public defenders unless they can come up with the money to pay these lawyers ..

[@mccombs93]

I was thinking the same thing!

[@LarisseMontrose]

I thought they already had separate counsel. I think the blonde is the husband's lawyer and the brunette is the wife's.

[@bellavita3097]

What a wonderful counselor he was more worried about Ethan‘s well-being than his own parents.

[@elizabethbennet4791]

i noticed that too!!!

[@newhorizon4066]

Are you a family member of the (counselor) guy by any chance? Otherwise you should go get your head screwed on straight. Do you want your kids to go to a school that employs such incompetent push-over. He cared more about a mentally unhinged kid with murderous impulse than the fact that that kid was allowed to mingle (with backpack unchecked) with other kids while all the evidence was showing that he was itching to use his new toy (gun) on other people? This counselor and the dean should be accountable for their big time failure/incompetence. I hope the victims parents sue the pants off these two.

[@user-vw8uu8dg7g]

He believed him , he actually was the one who went & got his bag pack that was left in his class . He got it & didn’t check inside.

[@newhorizon4066]

@@user-vw8uu8dg7g And he didn't feel (even without searching/opening it) the weight or the content of the backpack with a gun and ammo inside? He is stupider than a bona fide idiot, if such thing is possible.

[@tiffanyritter9468]

@@newhorizon4066 while I understand where you’re coming from, I understand why the counselor didn’t. Looking back, I’m sure he wished he would’ve. You can’t blame him. Blame the damn parents. 🙄

[@zyrosqrd2552]

Let's talk about this brilliant defense attorney, who was able to deduce that 2 different teachers who co-teach a class are actually Separate people! She must have graduated at top of her lawschool class.

[@johnlamphier3515]

defense was larry nassar's lawyer

[@thetruepatriot7733]

@@johnlamphier3515 seriously?

[@johnlamphier3515]

@@thetruepatriot7733 the one for the mother.

[@user-vw8uu8dg7g]

@@thetruepatriot7733 no she wasn’t, I watched the whole larry trial

[@johnreed3405]

@@user-vw8uu8dg7g Yes she was. Shannon Smith was Larry Nassar's attorney. Do a Google search for Shannon Smith Larry Nassar Jennifer Crumbley

[@pattydonohue5452]

The Defense attorney was sarcastic in her cross examination of the Counselor. Everything she asked had already been asked. What was the point?

[@thebadhombre9917]

To put the blame on the consoler and not on the parents. They’re trying everything to put the blame on others and not on the parents

[@otrinity8381]

its a strategy, shes trying to trip him up so the parents look better in their horrible negligence.

[@katemb72]

Even the fact that the school counselor told the parents that Ethan had suicidal ideations, you think that alone would have made them lock up that gun, change the pin to the gun safes, and made sure any gun in the house was inaccessible to him. Wtf were they thinking? And to not pull him out of school to seek professional help, or even just take him home, spend one on one time with him until mental help could be received! Dad is a doordash driver, so am I, you make your own schedule!! And mom should have put work on the back burner for the day. She had no problem sneaking out of work to have her affair though 😤 They also need to be charged with neglect on top of the involuntary manslaughter charges! Their lawyers stated that prosecutors are making them look like the worst parents in the world...nope, James and Jennifer have proven already that they are smh. Horrible!

[@KatJ3st]

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt!

[@newhorizon4066]

"...you think that alone would have made them lock up that gun, change the pin to the gun safes, and made sure any gun in the house was inaccessible to him. Wtf were they thinking?" -No, I think that their real intention was that the kid would use the gun sooner or later - on whom or what didn't really matter. Otherwise the trouble they went to purchase the gun as gift to him, take him shooting practice would have been a waste of time and money, wouldn't it?

[@angieholguin244]

"I'm not a mind reader!" Yes love it! The counselor is so beyond irritated and annoyed with the Defense and so am I! The counselor did his job and there is only so much he can do when the parents don't seem to even care.

[@FlyingArmbar317]

The defense was laying the groundwork to show he is as responsible as the parents and I agree with the defense. His negligence played a hand in this event, no doubt, and he should be seated right next to the parents since the prosecution is going down this slippery slope of charges.

[@user-vw8uu8dg7g]

The guy had his bag pack and didn’t check!!!!! He stupidly trusted the shooter. A dog can call parents , that’s not where the intervention ends.

[@newhorizon4066]

Are you a family member of the (counselor) guy by any chance? Otherwise you should go get your head screwed on straight. Do you want your kids to go to a school that employs such incompetent push-over. He cared more about a mentally unhinged kid with murderous impulse than the fact that that kid was allowed to mingle (with backpack unchecked) with other kids while all the evidence was showing that he was itching to use his new toy (gun) on other people? This counselor and the dean should be accountable for their big time failure/incompetence. I hope the victims parents sue the pants off these two.

[@LarisseMontrose]

Well, he or someone in that office should've searched the boy's belongings, but it's hard not to feel for the guy. Some of the things the defense was asking wouldn't be appropriate for a school counselor to do. Like asking him if he'd read Ethan's journal. You can tell all this is weighing on him. He made a mistake, but he doesn't need to be made to feel guilty for the parts he couldn't have done anything about.

[@newhorizon4066]

@@LarisseMontrose Of course it's easier "to feel for the guy" as he's still alive. A bit harder isn't it to feel for those who ended up dead because this guy did NOT do what was NECEssary and WITHIN his power to prevent the killings. Such as calling the police or the CPS when the parents refused to take their problem child home. He and the dean were probably bullied by the parents and manipulated by the kid and ultimately allowed him to carry out his plan. "He (the kid) claimed he understood..." and therefore you (the counselor) believed he understood? What a moron, go back and get some basic training for your so-called profession.

[@reneewilliams3829]

He is an excellent loving counselor. He was spot on and every school need more like him

[@newhorizon4066]

Yeah, and that will assure we get more shootings at schools that employ such incompetent push-over. Are you a family member of the (counselor) guy by any chance? Otherwise you should go get your head screwed on straight. He cared more about a mentally unhinged kid with murderous impulse than the fact that that kid was allowed to mingle (with backpack unchecked) with other kids while all the evidence was showing that he was itching to use his new toy (gun) on other people? This counselor and the dean should be accountable for their big time failure/incompetence. I hope the victims parents sue the pants off these two.

[@BeRightBack131]

I dunno. This guy FAILED to actually give the parents a true and correct copy of Ethan's math paper. He told the parents he thought Ethan needed counseling, but did not seem to stress enough that the combination of 3 different incidences in 2 days was actually cause for alarm. If the school counselor called me to the school and said my kid is sad because he recently lost a pet and a grandparent, but those drawings are actually just part of his future goals of an artistic ideas, then I might not be overly concerned either. That is literally what he's testifying to on the stand, that Ethan explained away the pictures etc as an after graduation artistic career goal. The educated and trained counselor believed Ethan when he claimed it was nothing to worry about, and he was only sad because of the recent passing of a dog and a grandparent. If Ethan was able to make a trained professional believe the drawings etc are nothing to be concerned about, , imagine how much easier it would have been for Ethan to fool his parents.

[@Prof_K7]

This counselor is negligently incompetent!

[@adriannedelacy2100]

I do not believe this is "excellent loving councillor".....this is a man who failed to do do his job, who knows he failed, who was going to "follow up the next morning"......Had he been a diligent professional and carried out his duties responsibly this whole awful situation would have never happened. Ethan's demeanour and actions on the day was enough to convince this councillor of the need for immediate mental professional involvement.....but when Ethan's parents failed to take Ethan home with them, this guy just directed Ethan back to class. As he keeps repeating, he wanted to be sure Ethan was safe - surely he should have also been concerned for the safety of every other person in the school. I agree with the defence attorney's scepticism when she questions this councillor about his faith in the response Ethan gave when asked if he was a threat to himself or others. A true professional would not solely rely on the answer he received from Ethan. Ethan's backpack was brought to this fool's office.......backpack containing a telling journal and a firearm. No, not an "excellent loving councillor" .....the words TOTAL BLUNDERING IDIOT come to mind! He failed in so so many ways.....he might deny this fact but he will have to live with it. I have no regard or sympathy for such an incompetent weasle of a man as he squirms and tries to justify his non-action . Go get help today or maybe tomorrow for your son! Period. Yeah right! Great advice - MINUTES later and FOUR young people are DEAD! Now this "loving councillor" is insisting he did all he could. COULD DO BETTER SIR!

[@newhorizon4066]

@@adriannedelacy2100 The meeting with the parents ended abruptly with Jennifer asking "Are we done?" That tells us all we need to know about the behavior of this counselor. A pushover who was afraid to do what he needed to do. Instead had Jennifer told him to march in front of a firing squad, he would. Because of his passivity 4 kids died, more if mother and son had spent more time on shooting practice. He should be charged with accessories to mass slaughter, but as the prosecutor has mentioned, the laws are there to protect these incompetents!

[@tiffanyritter9468]

Ethan was CRYING for help!! I can’t believe this evidence!! Left him alone everyday. Laughed at him. Ignored his texts when he was alone. ALONE ALL THE TIME!! Besides, what parent doesn’t check their child’s phone randomly to see what they’ve been doing?! Especially knowing they have a journal!! Do you know how it feels to have 1 friend?! I have a 13 yr old who has been bullied in school, has very little friends, low self esteem and didn’t want to live anymore. After moving away from family, he’s been feeling lonely. I broke down when he kept telling me how his days were at school and how he felt about himself. I’m the one that thought everything was ok! If he were to hurt someone, after KNOWING what he told me, I would blame myself!! I tried blaming the school but it comes down to the parents. It changed his life around after seeking therapy, which then referred him to a psychiatrist. Parents have to be PRESENT with their children. Ask them how they’re doing. Ask how their day was. All 3 of my kids have been in therapy after my sons mental breakdown just so they ALWAYS have someone to talk to in case they don’t want to come to me. These parents did NOTHING!! They didn’t even TRY!! I’m so sorry for the loss of these teens. I can’t even imagine the pain they’re going thru. This hits home for me because I have a child with mental illness and these situations CAN be prevented. Hats off to the parents who actually get involved with their children AND their teachers. Sending LOADS of prayers for our future parents. Change needs to happen.

[@coldchillin8382]

Ikr. What parent doesn’t check their kid’s room periodically especially their journal

[@EM-tg4ft]

True but the counselor should have notified police, they should have checked his bag (his parents) or even school officials. Because the bag was given back to Ethan by a school official without checking it. maybe had someone check it this wouldn't have been an issue.

[@lf9341]

My heart breaks for Ethan just as much...:(

[@tiffanyritter9468]

@@EM-tg4ft agreed! I’m curious if they need suspicion to search? Even then, his drawings should’ve been a huge red flag to his parents!

[@kam0406]

You are doing your job and not being neglectful. Ethan's parents were woefully neglectful. Possibly criminally neglectful.

[@thetruepatriot7733]

Nobody can predict the future and hindsight is always 20/20 but the school and the parents are to blame here. There were two separate incidents involving a gun, the first was researching the ammunition and the second was the drawings... why didn't the school search his locker and backpack? A five minute search would have prevented this... schools have a right to search students backpacks while on school property. The school was also negligent in this case.

[@ogg5949]

I totally agree with you but it appears we may be the minority with this thinking. I think everyone is afraid to accuse the school ppl cuz it would start us down a slippery slope? But I don't see any valid excuse for why the school didn't search him and why they didn't keep him separated from the other students and classes. It seems so common sense to me that a search and separation should be at the top of the to do list in a situation like this. I don't think the counselor is a bad person, he just made a fatally bad choice that day. The teacher also should never have allowed him back in class. She should've raised bloody hell insisting that he be removed. And the principal should've taken control and kept that kid heavily monitored and separated for the day. Just so many ppl had a chance to speak out and never did; many students knew this kid was a time bomb- many even told their parents. Such a preventable tragedy.

[@newhorizon4066]

No need to "predict the future," what we have here is what the prosecutor claimed the "foreseeability" of a crime - in this case mass shooting. The counselor didn't feel (even without searching/opening it) the weight or the content of the backpack with a gun (heavy metal) and ammo inside when he handed it back to the kid? Lord help us. By allowing him back to the classroom they practically put everybody lives at the school in danger. I would sue even if my kid came home safely from this incident. Failure to take action in light of the "foreseeability" of a crime.

[@krissyrific]

Does anyone want the defense to be less annoying? Is that fair?

[@MamaBakerElisabethBaker]

LOL!

[@t6l9k47]

Yeah. Her study course must have included Legally blond. 🤗🤷🏻‍♀️not to make light of the situation. Sorry about the losses but these people all had a responsibility but they all failed this kid. 🙁

[@krissyrific]

@@t6l9k47 😂 legally blonde?! that’s giving way too much credit. It will be interesting to see the parents next move after this disaster we’ve seen so far. (They would have been better off with court appointed attorneys.)

[@zyrosqrd2552]

"You are aware that teenagers are capable of lying? " Appropriate response, "As are adults, Including and especially parents And attorneys, Trying to obfuscate , and avoid taking responsibility for their actions".

[@xeno4746]

The defense lawyer accuses the counselor of possible shortcomings but that doesn't absolve Ethan's parents from their responsibilities. They knew there was something wrong with Ethan (his requests for help, his journal, they said Ethan was weird etc.) and they completely ignored it in my opinion. Gave Ethan a gun as they found him "weird". Even after the school talk, she said she was worried but wanted to take him to riding lessons in the evenings (while Ethan didn't like horses) instead of talking to him at length and discussing and seeking help. Why did Ethan have no health insurance while they spend a fortune on the horses ?? W.T.H. were these parents thinking ?? It seems they didn't take Ethan seriously at all.

[@twylah9047]

Both these people that call themselves PARENTS... should both go to prison.

[@lf9341]

I hate them so much.

[@pepperm3466]

lol dad was a doordash driver and could barely make it to the school to see about his sons weird behavior and had to rush back to work? lol what a joke.

[@ere4449]

Right! And he could have taken him along with him. He was just driving in his car for his job. It's not like he had to go into a place of business for his job. When I was a kid I rode along with my dad when he delivered pizzas all the time. He could have taken him out of school that day. Sad!

[@pr3ttylady812]

Since he wasn't working,he could have homeschooled his son.

[@braindirt7499]

He showed up for that emergency meeting as well as his wife. Ethan lived in a relatively good home. He had good grades, no behavioral problems at home nor school, not a gang member, not a drug addict. Corrupt Karen has been selling the bs that the parents are bad, because she's protecting the school. She wants to direct focus and anger towards the parents to use them as scape goats for negligent Oxford High staff.

[@braindirt7499]

@@ere4449 it was the staff at Oxford high who had the authority to allow Ethan back to class, or not. This negligent counselor failed these parents when he said Ethan was suicidal not homicidal. Of course the parents couldn't possibly believed Ethan was suicidal. He wasn't! If this joke of a counselor had done his job and said Ethan was homicidal, then I'm sure we wouldn't be here talking about this tragedy.

[@pepperm3466]

@@braindirt7499 clearly you have not heard the testimony of his journal or the testimony of his friend talking about Ethan begging his parents for help because he was having mental issues. So there were issues at home which his parents ignored that's why they've been charged and are now going to trial. Because enough evidence was presented to hold the parents accountable for not getting their mentally ill son help even when he begged them for it instead they bought him a gun. I agree the school should be held accountable but the parents should also be held accountable. If there is a zero tolerance for violence there should be a zero tolerance for anything depicting violence as well. Maybe they'll make that a new rule at the school. Even depictions of violence should get you kicked out of school immediately.

[@luisfernandomontejano8090]

everytime i see all these court videos i really want to pursue a degree in law, seems easy to obtain if they give it to these bozos

[@lynnegackstetter2779]

This man sounds so caring about Ethan. You can tell just how hard it was for him even now because he truly cared for this young man.

[@newhorizon4066]

Are you a family member of the (counselor) guy by any chance? Otherwise you should go get your head screwed on straight. Do you want your kids to go to a school that employs such incompetent push-over. He cared more about a mentally unhinged kid with murderous impulse than the fact that that kid was allowed to mingle (with backpack unchecked) with other kids while all the evidence was showing that he was itching to use his new toy (gun) on other people? This counselor and the dean should be accountable for their big time failure/incompetence. I hope the victims parents sue the pants off these two.

[@newhorizon4066]

@@johnlamphier3515 Yeah, there's not much he can do beside sitting there and letting the parents intimidate him and the youngster manipulate him ("He 'claimed' he understood...") to the point where he couldn't even dare to imagine that the backpack that he was handling to the kid might have contain something suspicious ie dangerous, in light of what the drawings showed. When the parents refuse to take action, then you (the counselor) need to. A single phone call would do - but he wouldn't lift even a finger. Sending the kid back to the classroom at that point is endangering the lives of everybody inside the school. Beside, you can feel the weight if not the content of the backpack WITHOUT opening it when there's a gun ( heavy metal) and ammo inside. But by then his mind already made up okay there's nothing to look here, so move on. Indeed it went bang bang. 4 families losing their loved one because of his mis-step. It could have been 14 if the psycho had aimed right.

[@Prof_K7]

@@newhorizon4066 I agree...this counselor is negligently incompetent.

[@mostimportantmegan]

"Is that fair?" "Is that fair?" Just ask yes or no questions jesus christ

[@jesussaves7973]

Megan you can really leave Jesus Christ out of this statement please

[@mostimportantmegan]

@@jesussaves7973 no

[@jesussaves7973]

@@mostimportantmegan well oh woe to you. So sad. Do you know that “one day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord of all “. Even yours and mine.

[@mostimportantmegan]

@@jesussaves7973 Bahaha no

[@jesussaves7973]

@@mostimportantmegan 🙏

[@WakeupMs.McBride]

The defense attorney seems unprepared

[@Curlyloxau]

The Counsellor is exceptional at his job.

[@JBfromFL]

The parents NEVER stop and think, "I wonder where the semi auto handgun we bought our 16year old is?" Maybe we should check. Unbelievable.

[@heleng1901]

The counsellor care more than his parents. The defence team are trying to defend the indefensible!!!

[@elizabethbennet4791]

dang these teachers should get paid more- the GOOD ONES!

[@nonmihiseddeo4181]

(1:00:06) Anyone can lie about anything at any time. Particularly in a healthcare setting, the system doesn't work, if the providers think their patients/clients are lying, or if the clients think their providers are lying. Providers assume the person to whom they're providing care is being truthful and that they have a vested interest in being truthful, so they can get help. Clients believe the providers are truthful about what they can do for them. We can't go around second guessing each other! For Jennifer's lawyer to try to make it sound like this school counselor was negligent, because he took Ethan at his word, is laughable. It's desperate, grasping at straws. EDIT (1:14:36): Now she's getting to where I'm at with this counselor. When the parents refused to 1) Take Ethan off school grounds and 2) Get Ethan professional help on an urgent, if not an emergency, basis, the counselor should have called CPS and let them handle it.

[@esthermarcen7587]

400 students for counselor wow that a lot.

[@kam0406]

It's not really a counselor for mental health. His main responsibility is just to make sure kids apply for college and have enough credits to graduate. We really need a well trained mental health professional in place in the schools. Mental illness rates gave skyrocketed.

[@esthermarcen7587]

@@kam0406 totally agree with you.

[@pattydonohue5452]

This Counselor seems genuinely caring and professional. He's got a very hard job. God bless him.

[@SunsetGuitarist]

His testimony I think really reveals how sneaky and manipulative Ethan really was leading up to the shooting. He knew all the right things to say to get sympathy....

[@BA-ef4pr]

Counselor was not inquisitive to 1. View video 2. Get parents to communicate 3. Search backpack 4. Report suicidal traits 5. Report to cps when parents pushed back about ethan going to see a professional immediately

[@justanothersmith6012]

@@BA-ef4pr Ethan had been practically invisible at school right up to the two days that ended in the shooting. He wasn’t a troublemaker . He didn’t stand out. His parents had not been called to the school before. He was respectful & responsive. Not having any prior engagement with Ethan’s parents, the counselor really didn’t know what he had on his hands. CPS wouldn’t necessarily consider this as neglect unless it was an ongoing issue. We were foster parents for 17 years so lots of experience. That doesn’t mean I agree with them, but knowing the caseloads and issues they deal with, a parent not immediately taking their child to get mental healthcare would not rise to the level of immediate intervention or a neglect case unless the child had already engaged in self harm or harming others. The counselor didn’t know Ethan tortured animals or that he saw demons at his home. He did what he could in those few hours. I do think Ethan should have remained in his office that day, however.

[@newhorizon4066]

Are you a family member of the (counselor) guy by any chance? Otherwise you should go get your head screwed on straight. Do you want your kids to go to a school that employs such incompetent push-over. He cared more about a mentally unhinged kid with murderous impulse than the fact that that kid was allowed to mingle (with backpack unchecked) with other kids while all the evidence was showing that he was itching to use his new toy (gun) on other people? This counselor and the dean should be accountable for their big time failure/incompetence. I hope the victims parents sue the pants off these two.

[@supermom8025]

The councilor cared more about the kid then his own parents smh are you serious? The parents obviously did not care at all!! This is so sad why, why couldn't they just listen and take that. Boy home and for God's sake lock those guns up properly. I just can't with some of these comments, it's all the parents fault not this counselor

[@ColorMeErin]

Everything the Parents did makes me Believe that they were hoping he'd take his own Life... But, it BackFired when he took 4 Other Lives, instead of just his Own. What Ethan did was inexcusable but, I feel, it would've been Preventable had his Parents &/or the School did anything other than the Big NOTHING that they did that Day... It's VERY Sad.

[@kerryannewalsh3447]

i had this thought as well. I think you are right and if he had committed suicide they would've gotten away with being rotten parents and people bc they could've just said he was disturbed they did all they could and there wouldn't have been a detailed investigation.

[@pattymoody2405]

OMG these two defense attorneys are a joke! They're making the Parents look guilty, which they are. The mother is doing everything she can to get the father's attention and he won't look at her for nothing. Really I shouldn't even call them a Mother or Father because they're far from it. They tried to run and leave him to fend for himself. What a screwed up so cálled family. As well as the defense attorneys 🤪🤪

[@kam0406]

There were both ordered by the judge NOT to make eye contact with each other. Mr. Crumbley is the only one following the rules.

[@thesleepingdog4061]

The defense attorney is so inappropriate in communicating, it’s like get your words out?! get to the point? This just lingers too much and not sure where’s she’s getting at?!

[@amy-joe5772]

They have too many court cases just go to trial and get it done

[@lynnegackstetter2779]

That poor child had been left on his own from a young age. These parents are a POS.

[@mydogky]

omg that poor child !!!!really that poor child bloody well murdered mass murdered kids at his school .That little pos deserves to be tried as an adult and face the death penalty and his parents are not mind readers how the hell were they supposed to possibly know what that evil pos was about to do there is no way those parents should be held responsible, those of you who are so sanctimonious shouldn't throw stones , cos there are parents who are a damn site worse than them look at chris watts mother she thinks the sun shines out of his backside, such a wonderful quiet cautious child was her description and look at what that evil sob did .only in the U SA is there trial by media ,its disgusting even your own president thinks its ok to pre judge .That school needs to take a good look at themselves they are equipped to see signs of troubled kids those parents are not trained in mental health ,but the general consensus with you lot is let that poor child go free so he can really finish the job ,but blame and lock up his parents for those murders despite they were not present

[@lf9341]

I know. He begged his parents just to text him back . My heart breaks for him as much as his victims.

[@wyntertyme1735]

Defense is Trying to confuse the issue with this lady but she's a tough cookie. I like her.

[@annablount2977]

if they think giving that kid detention or suspension would have changed the outcome, they need just as much mental help as their client

[@1badcrow463]

Why stop at the parents ? Lock up the grandparents as well ! In North Korea his aunts and uncles would likely be imprisoned too...

[@unicornrose9964]

Am glad the USA is not like that then .that’s crazy invalid no .

[@lorikirkpatrick2653]

If the defense says, "Is that fair to say" " Is that fair", everyone should drink a sip of water. We would all be well hydrated. She drives me nuts.

[@na0mi0]

correct!

[@lynnegackstetter2779]

Fact is that schools are not allowed to go through a students backpack without cause. The student can get a journal out and show the councilor if they so choose. If another student reported to the school that they saw or were shown a gun,a knife or drugs in a student locker or backpack then they can have cause. More so if it's in a student locker. Otherwise they can't just go through a students personal backpack. Why does everyone think school worker's are the police. Hell the police can't search a car pulled over without cause.

[@LarisseMontrose]

Maybe it's just because I was in school during all the post-Columbine hysteria, but I don't think that's exactly right. They searched our things with much less reason than Ethan gave. He was in a bad enough way that the guidance counselor wanted him to be seen within 48 hours or that same day if at all possible. That by itself should've been enough.

[@newhorizon4066]

"Fact is that schools are not allowed to go through a students backpack without cause." You need cause ? in this case it's the drawings.

[@jamiemiller7316]

These parents are directly responsible for thier sons actions. He asked them for help multiple times and they literally told him to suck it up. I hope they end up rotting in jail for their actions, or lack thereof. So many innocent lives have been ruined because they could not be bothered to take care of their son. The last thing I would do if I knew my son saw demons and told me he wanted to see a psychiatrist is buy him a gosh darn gun! I wonder if they even got their son a lawyer with the four thousand dollars they took out of his bank account before they went on the run.

[@heleng1901]

Don't blame the counsellor because you are defending negligent parents!

[@haunteddreams7856]

Exactly she's trying to pin this whole thing on the fact that kids lie....... Adults lie, for all we know the counsellor could've lied about everything even the parent could be lying. Her statement was irrelevant as anyone can lie

[@deritha62kinsley77]

Always remember that Jennifer wrote a letter to the former president to thank him for his stance on guns. They are very like minded people, where everything is askew.

[@notyrmom5698]

This situation wouldn't even exist if people didn't insist on bringing yet more oh-so fragile lives into this cesspool. Do we all just need a little play-thing? Selfish.

[@blueaquarius1505]

The Counselor seems to really care for this kid. These parents have obviously failed their son.

[@newhorizon4066]

"The Counselor seems to really care for this kid" while letting other kids eat his bullets. Good job!

[@veronikakovacikova5774]

Up ⬆️

[@xxwhispersxx2856]

Unless something wild happens, the Crumbleys are definitely going to prison for a while.

[@sirvilhelmofyonderland]

According to the defense,,, it’s everyone’s job to raise , care for, Ethan OTHER than his parents ?

[@t6l9k47]

Mental health or lack of proper education? I cant stand it when parents leave their kids home alone. I can’t stand it even more the excuses of I have a life to live too or I HAVE to make money. NO you have the responsibility to take care of and raise your children. As a professional like this councilor they should have never let them leave. Time to go back to school for the counselor and does the law not state that we have a responsibility to report these incidents to police? These people failed. Gaslighted and gaslighting. That’s how we do things I guess.🤷🏻‍♀️ take my word for it. Uh um no as a parent I’m going to get the facts first. I had trouble with my son too. He thought he was going to be a gangster selling drugs and robbing people. Let’s just say he and his friend went separate ways mostly but only by choice. My son got a whole new type of education and is now a welder. A lazy welder but he graduated has a working girlfriend vehicle and a family who loves him. Point is. As a parent I paid attention to my kids. 🤦‍♀️ ps. I helped his friend as well and the two of them still talk and know each other to this day. Now my son actually thanks me and sees what mom was trying to teach him. I’m glad he recognizes things now but back then. Whew the possibilities……?

[@mikaelg5840]

We responsible gun owners lock our guns up and no one has access to the gun. I’m glad these parents are being held accountable to the fullest extent.

[@MamaBakerElisabethBaker]

Okay. So Jennifer's lawyer is great for the prosecution. She's attempting to discredit the school counselor, but all she's doing is reiterating that the school faculty cares more about Ethan than his parents do. This man is an excellent witness, and he's not letting that idiot throw him off. I truly can't help but feel sad for Ethan. His parents completely failed him.

[@braindirt7499]

The one who failed Ethan as well as his parents is Hopkins. He misled the parents into thinking Ethan was suicidal not homicidal and he only recommended therapy when Ethan should've been hospitalized immediately before ruining everyone's lives including his own. The parents should join the lawsuit against the school. Hopkins wss lazy and negligent. He doesn't care about anyone other than himself. If he had done his job and reviewed the evidence he was presented with at the school prior to the shooting, then he wouldn't have made the tragic mistake of thinking Ethan was suicidal. These parents couldn't have possibly taken him serious when he said Ethan was suicidal, because he wasn't.

[@MamaBakerElisabethBaker]

@@braindirt7499 I respectfully disagree. The fact that Hopkins took an interest in the things Ethan said and wrote shows that he was doing his job. I struggle with depression and anxiety, and the words that Ethan wrote are similar to things I used to write. Again, I know only what has been said by witnesses, but evidence shows that Hopkins handled the situation as he was taught to do, and he showed concern by asking Ethan the questions he did. I'm definitely not putting everything on the parents, but I believe they are the most guilty parties because they care more about their horses than they do about Ethan. They are guilty of letting Ethan's mental health fall to the wayside. The people I feel terrible for are the families of the kids whose lives were stolen from them.

[@marilily]

Not sure if anyone noticed but the lady next to the Judge was falling asleep 😴🤫

[@nikkimclay5474]

he did it cos mum & dad didnt give a toss, it hurt him so bad

[@markchayer325]

I pity for the parents and there son. It’s just awful, shaking my head.

[@kathleenullmann4602]

In light of the severity of this case, I realize how shallow my comment will be. But, these defense attorneys seem to be a little confused and easily distracted by their own hair.

[@newhorizon4066]

Not shallow, quite a propos indeed. Those lawyers were actually hired by the state for comic relief.

[@flower_goddess1279]

One can only imagine what went into this counselors mind once he knew Ethan was the shooter !

[@gbohn5641]

where is the audio?

[@jacquelinet8903]

Correct?

[@jacquelinet8903]

Sorry. Thought maybe I could make someone laugh with that, hard to find anything funny here.

[@Kmbstitches]

@@jacquelinet8903 Oh, I get it. Yeah, that was getting pretty annoying.

[@GIRLonMW2]

The counselor not checking Ethan’s bag before returning it to him was not why Ethan acted out, the moment his parents left without him in the time he needed them most, he made up his mind that he would have to take further actions to possible get his parents to finally care or understand what he was going through. The act was a desperate act for attention to his parents.

[@newhorizon4066]

Wishful thinking. Read his journal. It had been planned for quite some time down to the day.

[@GIRLonMW2]

@@newhorizon4066 where can I read it? People may plan something but can also change their minds last minute. Yes we all wish there was a different outcome.

[@newhorizon4066]

@@GIRLonMW2 Watch the whole prelim trial. They showed everything, texts, journal, etc.

[@sirvilhelmofyonderland]

Defense is flimsy at BEST. Trying desperately to show Jennifer and James are good parents like you and me. They aren’t. It’s insulting to good parents, even bad parents.

[@mckenna9489]

Why was part 3 deleted?

[@elizabethbennet4791]

It's rather a ridiculous argument (though this is a core tenet of how the justice system works: working every possible facet of a defense for someones behavior) that collecting and retrieving information on a suicidal or troubled person is innate to helping that person. At the point where you *already know the student is having suicidal ideation* the next step is not to collect more information but to connect him to intense therapy absolutely ASAP. The energy should only be going in one direction which is to get him therapy/meds to prevent harm to himself/others.

[@kam0406]

Mr. Crumbley needs his own defense! They should not have the same defense team! It should NOT be allowed. They made the decision to have the same defense team while in a highly emotional state. This needs to be reevaluated now. I fear there can be grounds for an appeal otherwise!!!!

[@elizabethbennet4791]

the defendant seems to have forgotten/is manipulating the reality but the teacher JUST testified in the previous examination that he was afraid of ethan being ALONE, and implied overtly that suicide occurs in solitude so if the parents werent going to be there he couldnt have forced him to go home as he could not have been monitored there, the parents being at work. wth

[@reneewilliams3829]

So is she trying to say those children at school was target practice😡🤬🤬

[@natalyperetz5784]

Looks good for the parents so far. They should be released they didn’t do anything so the school so anyone else so

[@natalyperetz5784]

Look good to the parent so far

[@kandice278]

Why does the defense lawyer act so angry??? She acts pissed off. Really??

[@willsee1404]

The lady on the stand needs a nice pearl necklace, is that fair to say? Hell yes!!

[@dianlajdziak9307]

Defense Atty and her condescending tone: "And parents come in and buy firearms...for their children, is that fair to say?" Witness: "NO." *CRICKETS*

[@kam0406]

The fact that Ethan's mother sat as far as she could from her son when called into the meeting at the school speaks volumes. She didn't show any warmth or concern for her son at the meeting. She was pissed off that Ethan dared inconvenience her! What a piece of trash!

[@jodaciarmani8264]

Your comment is trash

[@Usagihatika]

The defense is literally grasping at straws. She can not even speak in full sentences because she knows they got NOTHING... Honestly , how could they defend such people? They are making themselves look horrible & frankly embarrassing themselves & their career. So absurd. This poor councilor did everything in his power that he could. He did his job. Its not hos job to parent. He scheduled a meeting , met with the parents & advised them to take him to a therapist IMMEDIATELY!!! And he said " I will be following up pin 48 hours or I will have to take extra steps " . Talking about a journal ? Come on!! ( Laughs at the defense ) The defense is making a fool of themselves.

[@GIRLonMW2]

I don’t believe Ethan wanted to hurt others, it was the last act out in a cry for help and attention from his parents.

[@jennifersuzannebk5149]

I don't understand why the school allowed all this to happen.. blaming it on people who have the right to carry and can't afford taxes with out a job. the school who "failed to protect" the students including the young man who committed the crime.

[@Hooklineandsinker145]

I love it when these criminals, like this father, and people like Larry Nassar, sit there in court with their pen and pad, writing stuff down, like anything they say or think matters. Dude, you might as well just take a nap, because no one wants to hear what you want to say, nothing you write down is going to change the outcome

[@tlabang83]

Who the hell were these two bosos cheating on eachother with?

[@elanawilliams6148]

The defense attorneys voice is annoying has hell !!!! The school counselor cared more about Ethan's well-being than his own parents!

[@jodaciarmani8264]

This is outrageous! Maybe for the prosecution and these School Educators with there multitude of degrees and certificates, it’s impossible picturing what its like for a non professional manual labor. Where being employed by a company is a thing of the past and staffing agencies now control the job force. Theses agencies have no care or concern about personal anything so taking time off or leaving a shift early is the same as giving your notice.

[@karenaugustin2078]

The dad was a door dash driver. Had his own schedule. There was absolutely no reason not to get help for this kid right away or at most the dad could have taken him to work with him and talk with him. That's what any loving parent would have done.

[@haunteddreams7856]

It ain't the counsellor's fault not at all.

[@ldolan4051]

This is not resolution, those kids are gone. The Dean allowed this kid back to class? Is that not culpability?

[@jameswitt8124]

Selling your soul to become a defense attorney must be an interesting process.

[@mccluresrevenge7734]

God forbid someone defends themselves in court. Defense attorneys are the only thing keeping us free fro tyranny

[@angelapyle7301]

@@mccluresrevenge7734 wow,Never thought of them that way but, yes that is true.

[@katrinahamilton5499]

I hate when criminals all of a sudden are taking notes and paying attention to facts. Ahhh its to late now crumblys Like she the mom crumbly makes me sick to my stomach she rather meet her side dude in the parking lot of Costco and ride her pony drunk. Anyone could see her son was in a crisis boy how the cookie is crumblys no pun.

[@laurenhudgens7649]

Their lawyer is dumb. Like she makes no sense

[@lf9341]

Beyond an idiot.

[@susaneichmann7015]

Such light weight "defense lawyers"

[@celedinamaldondo1252]

Juez..america

[@lynnegackstetter2779]

This lawyer is sure trying to get this woman to prop up their own their theories. Good for her for being firm and knowledgeable about the Laws of Minor's and guns.

[@erikaivonnepadillasandoval2840]

Stop blaming teachers and counselors. It’s parents who should do a better job!

[@blkcatzette]

Check your children people.

[@mydogky]

you will have to do more than check your kids if those parents are banged up because the precidence will then be set so then any misdemeanour that your kids are involved in will give them the green light and you all as parents will have to take the can for everything they have a mind to do , good luck with that I suppose thats what they call karma for having your trials by media

[@ca819]

Is this guy still employed? He is overwhelmed with this kind of work. My god who employs a guy like that.

[@Prof_K7]

Correction.....this counselor is incompetent and unsuitable for the position!

[@cm1642]

I see the defense attorneys still suck.

[@jeanettemarietedescohalber8136]

LOCK🔒 ALL 3 OF THEM UP... AND THROW AWAY DAMN 🗝️ KEY... JUST SAYING

[@tatumlikechanning]

I feel like the parents bought Ethan this gun hoping he’d end his own life and had no idea this would be the route he’d take

[@newhorizon4066]

They did have some idea...Mom took son to shooting practice, make sure he could aim at target and shoot.

[@chase8454]

Both these parents are total garbage. They are so upset they got caught NEGLECTING their son. It sounds to me like he did this awful shooting to escape them. That speaks volume that prison for life is better than these two FAILURES in his life.

[@celedinamaldondo1252]

Articulo..190

[@celedinamaldondo1252]

Articulo 16..

[@celedinamaldondo1252]

Articulo..40

[@celedinamaldondo1252]

Ismael..arce..Ramon..artarticulo..13

[@EM-tg4ft]

He isn't a very good counselor because 11.29 his parents should have been called to the school or cps should have been involved..I think his father had more care, but I think the mother is just evil and maybe embarrassed by him.

[@celedinamaldondo1252]

Articulo..313

[@prtrinilan4357]

Woah... check out the look Jennifer C gives prosecutor at 14:14-14:16. She ‘s a nasty one! The Alpha in that marriage!