Cliffe Debates An Atheist On God’s Existence (FULL DEBATE)

Join Cliffe in a riveting debate as he engages in a discussion with an atheist on the existence of God. Watch as they explore philosophical arguments, scientific evidence, and personal perspectives in this thought-provoking exchange. Clips sourced from ‪@givemeananswer‬ ​⁠ . Check out their channel for more great content! Subscribe for more and comment what content you’d like to see next! #cliffeknechtle #Jesus

[@V.R250]

This young gentleman is so respectful and humble. God bless him..!

[@FaithThreads]

🙏

[@ynglingen-qd1iw]

He clearly has an open mind and is willing to ask question and also learn from it. He doesn't have to agree, but he has the pillar stone of showing understanding and respect. A great example of how to act when debating.

[@danlopez.3592]

He clearly did not understand what this religious guy was saying. When have you ever seen anything begin to exist? Like really begin to exist.

[@trellgold6998]

He's debating whether God is real not gender or pronouns 😂😂

[@danlopez.3592]

@@trellgold6998 pronouns exist we have no evidence God does

[@k.g.5221]

Anyone else like this kid ? He’s genuine

[@jacobforster566]

Really seems like he is searching for truth.

[@niknik6718]

Finally, a calm conversation about religion between a Christian and an atheist

[@Saint.Broseph]

You should watch some of Christopher Hitchens debates.

[@Mattropolis97]

What a cringe thing to say. They’re literally everywhere, you just don’t look 😂

[@Saint.Broseph]

@@Mattropolis97 Remember, only a Theist can interpret/clarify what they bible meant and use straw arguments.

[@PlumpClump]

hahaha

[@ernestlovesguitar]

If only more Atheists could be like this boy....he's so humble

[@Alpha_1_Edits]

Most atheists arent fooled as easily

[@DavePennicott]

You need to check yourself.

[@larrycarter3765]

Why should atheists have to be humble?

[@ernestlovesguitar]

@@larrycarter3765 everyone should be humble..this world would be much better place

[@GiorgiChkhatarashvili]

Same can be said about christians

[@ToadMan9000]

Much respect to this young man, and thank you Lord for giving him ears to hear.

[@jerrylong6238]

Yes thank Zeus for that.

[@lilbrazilian6902]

⁠@@jerrylong6238you misspelled Jesus.

[@niknik6718]

@@jerrylong6238 zeus??

[@robertbozic467]

​@@jerrylong6238no thank hades

[@cliftongaither6642]

​@@lilbrazilian6902 jeebus. there yuh go, fixed it for yuh.

[@tknciliba4743]

This Preacher is precise and caring, some us let our emotions get the better of us. I don't see how you can take God out of this Earth and Life, millions of species, millions of cells in our eyes to see Him yet some don't. He is the Author of life.

[@Abzero-mx2pb]

@@neilfletcher1841 in fact, god even makes sure we know this in isaiah 45:7. but we already knew he's evil from when he killed everyone on earth and forced a small group of people to reproduce through close incest before causing multiple wars.

[@tknciliba4743]

@@Abzero-mx2pb Good thing 4 u. I work for an optician so I can get you glasses to really see Him.

[@tknciliba4743]

@@neilfletcher1841 Lol 😂😂😂 what planet are you from? Stalin Hitler They killed more people than God ever did from Genesis to Revelation. Infact just one of them alone killed more people than God. The flood was Judgement of sin & He had mercy on us because He could have totally annihilated all of mankind. Second chances. 🙏🙏🙏 do you not belt your kids depending on the crime they have committed? Are you a 5min break parent?

[@tknciliba4743]

@@neilfletcher1841 Atheists: Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong murdered more than 100 million between them. During Noahs days there weren't even a million people on earth. Funny logic, you point 1 finger at God and you have another 3 pointing back at ya. 🙏🙏

[@Abzero-mx2pb]

@@tknciliba4743 no, thanks, I have 20/20 vision.

[@lesliefuller1456]

There is no debate. God exists solely in the minds of people with faith.

[@baldmista1907]

Exactly

[@mild-ep1rm]

It is as stupid to deny everything you hear as to agree with everything you hear. Your reasoning is flawed

[@lesliefuller1456]

@@mild-ep1rm why is my reasoning flawed? I don’t deny everything I hear. I only ask for evidence, no one has provided any yet.

[@mild-ep1rm]

@@lesliefuller1456 First of all,absence of evidence isn’t evidence of absence. But If you really struggle with evidence then let me provide you with eye witness testimonies that have seen a man dead and then seen him risen FROM the dead. If you want even more you can read the whole New Testament and the sources that back it up historically.

[@lesliefuller1456]

@@mild-ep1rm 😂😂😂😂😂 eye witness testimonies are the single most unreliable source of evidence on the planet. Verifiable proof is what is required. Where is it? There isn’t any. Thousands of people have tried for thousands of years to provide it, so far no one has succeeded.

[@FlowLikeWater429]

I was an atheist for many years, and if I had met Cliffe debate our lord and savior I would have absolutely been blown away

[@verko5292]

Well, I definitely am blown away by Cliffe...way more away from the religion than I ever was before.

[@Chase-vi1kh]

Start slower ​@verko5292 We have faith you'll figure it out. Some are late bloomers that's okay :)

[@verko5292]

@@Chase-vi1kh Oh I have surely figured it out long time ago...having imaginary sky friends doesn't do much for me - living the reality is what I stick to.

[@TerminatorCFC]

@@verko5292me too 😂

[@IAMJ1B]

I am so amazed at How IQ u guys have!Its mind blowing​ me 😂

[@yomer355]

05:45 this is how you talk to short people

[@nerfasauryt8828]

This is awesome! A healthy, nontoxic debate between two people who have very different beliefs.

[@camthomson3260]

If god can be eternal so can the universe/multiverse. End of story.

[@APIAlchemist]

The Universe possessing some of the qualities of a God is apparently outside of the realm of possibility for theists.

[@Mattropolis97]

@@APIAlchemistYeah but then you get those morons who act like they’ve had a revolutionary idea and follow that up with the conclusion “therefore the universe IS god 🤯”. If we’re calling the universe god then we’re no longer talking about the same thing. Words mean things for a reason

[@APIAlchemist]

@@Mattropolis97 But we also have to appreciate that language is always evolving and that words change their meaning over time. This is called Semantic Shift. It makes debates much harder than they should be a lot of the time.

[@tylerhamilton7058]

Science proves that the universe had a beginning therefore it can never be eternal. Only what caused the universe is eternal

[@APIAlchemist]

@@tylerhamilton7058 The Universe as we know it now started with a Big Bang, yes but The Big Crunch theory shows how in theory at least, the Universe could be eternal.

[@paulmarcil6221]

It is not a riveting debate. Cliffe cannot debate because what he says is so illogical. God is eternal. Why? Because he is. Can that not apply to the universe? No. Why not? Because it had a beginning. Did god not have a beginning? No. Why not? Because he is eternal. The circularity makes one dizzy yet Cliffe seems quite happy with that. The young man has the wisdom to understand that it is useless to discuss with Cliffe.

[@Ojs1875]

Number one comment. First thing I picked up was this.

[@Christus-totalis]

Modern cosmology indicates the universe had a beginning. The bible does as well. Cliff is making an prime mover argument see Aristotle. There must be a unmoved mover in order to start any motion. "An infinite regress of causation is neither possible nor necessary. Consider that you can never get to the end of an infinity, and for the same reason, we could never get here via an infinity of steps. Another way to look at it is that each step in a chain of causation takes time, no matter how small." here is a good vid on this kzbin.info/www/bejne/hGe4iGZ_otNomJo

[@vancekenemer9010]

But if the kid thought Cliffe was a blasphemer why did he stay to listen and debate. There is no actual proof but evidence is in the bible

[@dandelion1239]

The universe is a creation. The sun is exactly positioned so it doesn’t burn up the earth. Gravity works& is precisely as it should be. A person’s body is not a jumble of out-of-order parts…your nose isn’t at the top of your head…hence you don’t drown in the rain. Intelligent design…by God…who is eternal. Simple.

[@penuelodiaka6359]

God is eternal. He must be eternal. Existence cannot possibly come from nothing. Why? Because there is nothing there. Absolutely nothing. If there is nothing, then there is no energy or cause to cause something to exist. There is literally just nothing. But if God exists, and He is eternal, then that makes sense BECAUSE eternity indicates that He has always existed and always will exist. He himself doesn't have a beginning. That might be hard to imagine, but think of the number line from negative infinity to positive infinity. It doesn't have a beginning...there is no "first number" or "start" to the numbers from negative to positive infinity. In the same way, God does not have a beginning, he has always existed and always will. He caused the universe to exist

[@miapedersen9576]

I love Jesus❤

[@scottmoore3113]

Until proven otherwise: Logic rules, religion fools.

[@IL1keDirt]

It's logical to believe that there was a god, or some intelligent mind that created the universe. Logic.

[@Trumpulator]

​​@@IL1keDirt Even If so, who cares?

[@Nickersons-Theme]

​@@IL1keDirtits logical to think some few thousand year old man is floating around the sky after making humans from one of his ribs? 😅 yes very logical.....

[@mild-ep1rm]

@@Nickersons-ThemeSince you are giving a really poor and misguided explanation of what actually happened without providing any context,why would it be wrong of me to say “ Evolution says we came out mice because we are 98% identical in DNA?” See how your logic is stupid?

[@Nickersons-Theme]

@@mild-ep1rm Many many animals share some form of DNA, humans are after all also an animal. There's at least PROOF that we share dna with animals. There's no proof of this mystical man who can see everyone and everything. Have some common sense.

[@HonestlyCurious-bp4gv]

0:16 "Order and design do not come out of chaos by chance." Cliffe is going to have to pin down what he means by "chaos". Chaos actually speaks to how difficult something may be to predict due to the number of factors affecting it. That is to say, we cannot easily predict complex outcomes. Order regularly emerges from chaos (like the collection of matter into stars and planets due to gravity). The system is too complex to predict exactly what stars or planets will form from any given nebula, but we can predict that stars and planets will form.

[@spacecoastz4026]

And who made that gravity, the motion, the energy, and the matter?

[@HonestlyCurious-bp4gv]

@@spacecoastz4026 “And who made that gravity, the motion, the energy, and the matter?” I think you’ve missed the premise of my reply; My position is that order can come from chaos, where “chaos” means any incomprehensible complex system. That aligns with the notion that none of what happens is guided by a “who”, as your question alludes to. It’s a curious position to suggest that “order can’t come from chaos” or “the properties of the universe can’t come from nothing” while also asserting a fundamentally complex being that is both ordered and has no origin. Of course, the correct answer (for the religious or atheist) is that we don’t know how or why certain properties of the universe are the way they are. We currently have no way to determine answer to that question any more than you could explain the mechanism used by a god to create a universe (and “spoke it into existence” is insufficient as we have no example or evidence that this is actually how the universe came to be). And to put a different perspective on your question, if I see an extinct volcano, I don’t ask, “Who made that large hill?” There are lots of examples of things we observe that weren’t made by any being, but are just the result of well understood, natural processes. In contrast, if I find a device that looks like things I’ve observed humans make, then I consider a human has made it (the watchmaker argument). I know a watch has a maker, because I can observe examples of humans making watches; there are no examples or observations of a universe-maker beyond effects that are indistinguishable from unguided nature.

[@spacecoastz4026]

@@HonestlyCurious-bp4gv I didn't miss the premise of your reply, I just don't agree with it. Chaos is what made the Grand Canyon. Sure you can call that result "order", but that order also came about from things that God created and put into existence. *It’s a curious position to suggest that “order can’t come from chaos” or “the properties of the universe can’t come from nothing* I think its an unreachable and unreasonable concept that "nothing" can create a universe, which includes order and design...and life. *there are no examples or observations of a universe-maker beyond effects that are indistinguishable from unguided nature* Which mean that nature is your god. As written in Scripture: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man- Romans

[@HonestlyCurious-bp4gv]

@@spacecoastz4026 “Chaos is what made the Grand Canyon.” What do you mean by “chaos”? There is a well-known geological process that led to the formation of the Grand Canyon (erosion). Erosion isn’t not considered chaotic. The chaos you may be referring to is merely the aspect that, were we to observe the land before the Grand Canyon forming, we couldn’t accurately predict exactly what it would look like. However, we could predict that a massive canyon would form. “I think it’s an unreachable and unreasonable concept that “nothing” can create the universe…” I am not asserting that the universe was created or that it definitely wasn’t created. I made clear that we do not have any evidence to tell us why or how the universe is the way it is. “Which mean that nature is your god.” You may have to define what you mean by a “god” in this sentence. I have observed religious people redefining words like this (like calling science a religion) to sound profound, but they don’t check whether it is a coherent expression. My general understanding of a god is that it is sentient and has some capacity to communicate with humans (in an intelligible form). In that sense, a god is very much the antithesis of nature, as I define nature as being explicitly mindless and uncommunicative. This is to say, for your sentence to mean something to me, you’ll have to clarify how mindless nature can somehow be labeled as a concept that I’ve understood to explicitly mean a sort of mind that may be interested in nature but is more interested in human behaviours. “As written in Scripture: … For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen…” This is the epitome of religious thinking, in my eyes. Being told that “invisible attributes are clearly seen”, and being so keen to go along with the story that you refuse to acknowledge that it’s a blatant contradiction. While you may offer a mitigating explanation, my point is simply that it is poorly worded, and signals a kind of trickery or deception that normal communication doesn’t employ. You might say it is describing how you see the attributes everywhere, but it doth protest to much when it specifically calls them “invisible”; That is to say, the author(s) knew it isn’t clear that what we see is “His… attributes”. This passage aligns with what I said in my prior reply: the evidence for a universe-maker is conspicuously indistinguishable from the unguided nature we see. If it were guided, I’d expect it to be apparent (like the Grand Canyon inexplicably shaped like exact passages in the Bible or a Bible prophecy saying earth will get a 2nd moon next month and it shows up). In any case, I want to say that I appreciate you engaging this with the thoroughness you have. While we may be going back and forth on this topic, I do want to acknowledge that it means something to be willing to reach out to people that may not understand you in the hopes of better mutual understanding.

[@spacecoastz4026]

@@HonestlyCurious-bp4gv And I would leave it with these two questions.. Which really is more logical and plausible, that everything around us came to be without God...all on its own by some "force of nature" which nothing created....or GOD created Creation? And secondly, did Jesus exist? Did Jesus, the Son of God come to this earth as an atonement for our sins, so that the perfect righteousness of God the Father could be satisfied, and thus those willing to come to Him could have eternal fellowship?

[@JN_frothy]

This is just like believing in the tooth fairy, no proof

[@TheKantele]

No, it is quite different. People who have a mature belief in God do not believe in the tooth fairy.

[@JN_frothy]

@@TheKantele but it’s still the same thing, no proof for either

[@TheKantele]

@@JN_frothy Of course, there is no proof in the sense of mathematical proof - such as the proof of Pythagoras's theorem or proof as in chemistry predicting the outcome of mixing two chemicals. However, there is the enterprise of examining hypotheses that 1) proposes the agency of God and 2) proposes the agency of accidental random elements/forces(?). The fine tuning of the universe and the complexity of living creatures can reasonably be regarded as evidence [not proof in the mathematical sense] of an entity capable of complex operations and design - a grand masterful designer.

[@IL1keDirt]

@@JN_frothy Evidence and logical that there is a god. I don't see evidence for the tooth fairy nor logic. They are very different.

[@MaxQuagliotto]

4:32 - it's not "you have an 8th value" in the subtitles. It's "you have INNATE value".

[@Alex-d5j]

Yea subtitles on many videos on youtube tend to be like that it seems😅

[@anti-yarkk0]

He's so respectful and humble, imagine what christianity could do for him and make of him. He's going somewhere if he lets the Holy Spirit in.

[@facialburn4290]

Which god? Thor? Zeus? Allah? Apollo? Jehovah? Set? Ganesha? Loki? Let me guess: "The ONE true God", which just happens to be YOUR God. Convenient! Where's your demonstrable n falsifiable evidence for your God?

[@RichardMizenko]

There's only one God who showed himself to mankind Jesus Christ. There's only one God who loves you so much that he died for your sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day.

[@mild-ep1rm]

The one with the most evidence backing up what he said.(which of course is Jesus Christ). How about you stop trying to act intelligent and start actually thinking a bit.

[@facialburn4290]

@mild-ep1rm Christ may have existed. However, where's this demonstrable evidence you speak of that shows that he could perform magic n was the creator of the Universe? Lemme guess: eyewitness testimony n the Bible?

[@mild-ep1rm]

@@facialburn4290 He did exist and there is proof backing it up. The fact that you are ignorant of that is irrelevant. • Tacitus (Roman historian, c. AD 56-120) mentioned Jesus in his Annals, describing how Emperor Nero blamed Christians for the Great Fire of Rome in AD 64. Tacitus noted that “Christus,” the founder of the Christian movement, had been executed by Pontius Pilate. • Josephus (Jewish historian, c. AD 37-100) wrote about Jesus twice in his Antiquities of the Jews. One of these references (known as the Testimonium Flavianum) describes Jesus as a wise teacher and mentions his crucifixion under Pilate. Your guess was ill informed…

[@mild-ep1rm]

@@facialburn4290 About his divinity, yes it’s eye witness testimony which is credible and has been considered credible for the last 2000 years.

[@moez2424]

All God believers are like "I don't know why, therefore God exist".

[@IL1keDirt]

Slightly right. You left out a few key details though. We are only believing what is logical to believe in. And it seems like humans have no damn clue, so I would like to take my chances being with a kind, loving, forgiving, almighty god. What's there to lose.

[@eddyeldridge7427]

​@@IL1keDirt Your intellectual honesty, for a start. When you choose to believe something fir bad reasons, it opens you up to believing other untrue things. Which can and does result in harming you and others.

[@oreally8605]

Remember the atheist formula: Insult God insult Christians insult Christianity = they win the debate. "Show me how to make a Chocolate cake without sugar, cream, or chocolate. Now go ahead. That's how they sound. To try and discredit The Bible then ask us to debate. Makes zero sense. That young man is miles ahead of the typical atheist. He was willing to listen...

[@jerrylong6238]

Atheism is just not believing the theists claim, nothing else.

[@guii5041]

@@jerrylong6238 They are just pointing out that a lot of people who are atheist tend to fit that stereotype when debating with a christian, but yes you are correct atheists don't believe on what theists claim.

[@Thadd107]

That's good to know. Thanks. I will remember that 👍

[@RobertJ.Williamson]

Are you aware that hundreds of millions of people live in nations where leaving the state religion to become an atheist is punishable by death? This was true in with Christianity in Europe for more than 1000 years. After all the torture and oppression I don't think you get to act like atheists are the negative ones.

[@Trumpulator]

Thanks for letting us know that atheists hurt your feelings.

[@danlopez.3592]

When has anyone seen something begin to exist? I mean, literally begin to exist. Not materials just changed around and given a new name.

[@genozp2328]

I love the arguments and conversation here, especially the respect and thought-provoking material given by all sides, however, there is one thing I think Cliffe and I disagree with, or at least to an extent depending on how he defines it, and it definitely doesn't go with most scientists, though I would say it actually does align with science. Evolution isn't actually as proven as people think, and it doesn't necessarily have nearly as much evidence, or even as much backing as people think. At least, it doesn't have evidential based backing. One of the biggest problems with modern evolution and evolutionary theory is that, almost every reason, from each generation's childhood, that was used as evidence and major breakthroughs in the theory of evolution has been disproven, and virtually every scientists supports the theory, and doesn't give any pushback or even challenge it, which means quite frankly until it gets serious scrutiny, it has once again become an extremely ignorant theory based on sheer assumption and faith without evidence. The theory of evolution alone is proven wrong, at least from a scientific perspective without the necessity of God, due to irreducible complexity, which the early evidence given by Charles Darwin as a flaw was the eyeball and the functions it has, and I would also argue even down to skin and how it interacts with hair follicles, blood, blood types, blood vessels, different layers of skin, individual muscles, bones, arteries, the heart, a lot of the stuff can't actually be reduced all that far, and the few parts of this that can be reduced, it can't be added out of order through millions of years, it would have to be added relatively instantaneously or at max within a single generation to be able to function properly. Macro evolution does not actually hold any water anymore, even if you use it from the Christian perspective of God initiating evolution As a form of intelligent process, the actual evidence of evolution is not only lacking, it doesn't make sense even from God's perspective unless every step of the was its own individual miracle. Microevolution is a fancy word for adaptation, which has been proven by Charles Darwin and many others from the same bird across different areas and other such similarities. Adaptation is relatively normal, your average human who decides to become a hard worker after being a scholar or at school and learning guitar is going to have rougher hands and calluses, this is not the primary evidence towards microevolution, but this is an example of adaptation, as it doesn't just come from scabbing. Other examples include Darwin's birds He studied on an island. We have abundance of proof and evidence for adaptation and microevolution, but we don't actually have any evidence whatsoever towards macroevolution, which is the main concept of evolutionary theory. Evolution doesn't actually explain anything, and even when you look at the charts for evolution, pretty much every species has come into existence ny instantaneously, not over millions of years otherwise we would be finding fossil records of the in between transition fossils and not just predecessor and descendant. In fact, if that were the case, we should still be seeing more in between species today, those in the middle of adaptation where is very clear, yet we can't actually point to any of those except for those that are in the same species family in the kingdom of animalia, and though scientists say that those have evolved similar, that's not what they're trying to say. There are many things about today that do not make sense in terms of evolution, especially when you take the fact that evolution should be the adaptation long-term to change to meet a higher standard or better quality, or on rare occasion a worse quality if there was a temporary reason to believe it was better, from the body standpoint, yet there are many things even just about the human body and the human mind that don't make sense as an evolutionary theory. Evolutionary theory simply just does not hold any actual sense of evidence, and in my opinion, it takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does to believe in God, especially when you consider believing the Big bang was something initiated from nothing and by nothing to create order and design also takes a respectable amount of faith I don't see many have in actual religions. The scientific standard of evolutionary theory, and especially of Big bang theory, particularly in cases where one believes in the non-existence of God and simply scientific processes naturally, and even more so when you have people who believe in the concept of living in a black hole or multiverse theory, these are all things that take far more faith and have far less evidence than even some other religions beyond Christianity, and Christianity and Judaism actually do have a massive amount of evidence to convince their case unlike some unfortunately accepted scientific theories that are promoted by scientists and religions. Follow the evidence, not the people telling you their conclusion.

[@victorvolobuev507]

I feel similarly, big bang and evolution lack in any solid evidence just conjecture upon conjecture, but ask some questions and they fall apart like a sand castle in the tide. The theories are to simple to explain our universe, and too difficult to believe as probable or plausible cause.

[@genozp2328]

@@victorvolobuev507 The thing is, and to be fair my parents and I actually disagree on this part religiously and scientifically, but I actually don't think the Big bang theory has a significant problem if you think about it from a religious perspective, it just has a massive problem if you think about it from a naturalistic perspective. All powerful God saying let there be light and creating the cosmos sounds pretty equivalent to Big bang theory, and in fact the original Big bang theory was actually created by a theistic creationist, and fought by Albert Einstein because it implies a creator, it's the illogical scientists who later championed it as if it actually denied God when it actually proves it. Saying all the matter and energy that would ever exist in the universe existed in the area of half the size of the head of a needle, eventually turned erratic, and then exploded to make the universe as it is, over billions of years, which is more or less the naturalistic scientific Big bang theory, that doesn't actually answer the question they want you to believe it does, and it's completely illogical. I have heard some people saying that the expansion of the universe and gases and matter combining and reacting over time to make planets and galaxies is a form of evolutionary theory, apparently, which I don't agree on that definition and personally I believe in a timeless God who could survive well over trillions of years, I actually do believe in old earth personally, so though I disagree on the means, I mostly agree with science when it comes to space, just not the reason. I disagree with evolutionary theory because I think that makes a lot of leaps and logic, But the Big bang theory actually think is a pretty good one, just not the way they look at it naturalistically. That said, I should also point out that while I do agree with science when it comes to most things regarding space, I am also going to immediately admit that we haven't been anywhere or studied any significant majority of space, everything we have is based on assumptions which are based on 20 more assumptions, which is fine so long as you recognize there's no stability in the theories other than educated guesses. We don't actually know how old a star is, we've only seen two stars go supernova, we know Beetlejuice is going to eventually, and we know one is going to this year in a dual star system, allegedly. Though I roughly agree with it until for the notice, the ages and overall million and even billion year processes of celestial bodies are complete conjecture. I do think the fact that so many scientists look at those as if they are completely proven are just as religious in those scientific theories as any religious person, if not more, honestly. I somewhat admire the faith of a scientist, ironically.

[@victorvolobuev507]

@@genozp2328 i used to believe evolution and big bang was possible, because i never asked any questions. So, although I believed in God, I assumed that scientists, using science can find the truth. As I studied Christianity, i came to the realization that man is fallible and corruptible, often times more so than man would admit to himself. I learned about logic and reason and realized the claim that “everything can be explained by science” is horse manure. Who uses science to study things like math, justice, afterlife, faith, greed, pride, patience, language, God or no god etc? Generally, science can be used to study the physical domain, but thoughts feelings and ideas, if based on science, will only find grey brain matter, and electrochemical signals bouncing therein. Synapses in the brain, firing away explains human thoughts and ideas and feeling, wow that’s the biggest scientific fail i heard of. Sure it explains some things, but it cannot explain the metaphysical, for example the eye is an amazing apparatus that allows us to see, there are nerve endings that travel from the back of the eye to the brain that send signals to the brain, which the brain, then interprets into a reflection of the thing in front of our eyes. That’s great, but where is the tiny man inside that looks at the picture, acknowledges and understands it and acts based on what he sees? No, according to science, there is nothing beyond the physical world, that cannot be measured and tested…. Personally, it seems the metaphysical is much more expansive than the physical. Otherwise, why do humans study philosophers like Plato? If pure science is to believed, then Plato must have been taking some serious does of psychedelics to come with his theory of the shadows in the cave. If he was just nuts, why do humans even thousands of years later study him and other philosophers today and his ideas today? Are we all that crazy? Personally, I like Socrates. But Athenians sentenced him to death by accusing him of corrupting the young and impiety. Which is weird, because he didnt commit any crime, such as theft, murder, adultery, rape or fraud or any other deed detrimental to his society. All Socrates really did was to ask the question, does he know a thing enough to be able to truthfully understand at as is reflected in reality and he found that he had limits to his understanding and he found other people’s limits of their understanding, and when he showed people, “look, you don’t understand reality as well as you thought you did” that caused peoples’ egos to deflate and they thought ill of him. No, science does not have all the answers. Far from it. Any way, imo both Big Bang and evolution theories are flawed and cannot be proven by science. The limit of Big Bang is not that, given enough time, space, matter and energy, a random explosion can occur to create the universe as we know it. Hey, no problem, I am happy to hypothetically give the theory all those things, except order. Random means chaotic. So are explosions, and bangs, those are also chaotic and random. Now, is there any experiment that we can devise to show us how structure and order can come from chaos? Many people have attempted this, but logic tells us that order cannot come from chaos, that would be a contradiction in terms. This is my only question for Big bang theory, to give at least one practical example where this is possible, it can have eons of time, infinite masses of singularities, and incalculable amount of energy and randomness up the wazoo as it wants. What it can’t have is intelligent design, or laws of physics and biology and math, because those are not chaotic or random in nature. And I find that Big Bang falls grossly short of it’s attempt to explain the universe as we know it. On a practical note, let’s say I bought all the parts of a build-it-yourself car. But instead meticulously following the instructions and putting the car together, I decided to just pile up all the parts and add dynamite. Bang. Let’s say i have all the time and money in the world to create a limitless supply of car parts bunched up together and adding various variables of energy, not just dynamite, i could use heat, electricity or controlled radiation. Is it possible that at some random point, the energy added to the car parts pile that it can put together the car in proper working order? No? Why not? Because chaos does not produce order. And i submit anyone scrutiny, that it appears that the universe we live in has a law, that chaos and randomness has nothing to do with order and structure and the universe is infinitely more complex and intricate than the design of even the most expensive, newest tech, latest car. Evolution has the same flaw + how can inanimate matter develop DNA which is a book of instructions for even a single celled organism? Nope. It’s gonna take a whole lot more faith than i have to believe those theories are even getting close to anything factual resembling our universe as we know it.

[@mirandahotspring4019]

What a lot of nonsense! Evolution is probably the best supported and best understood of all scientific theories. We know more about evolution than we do about gravity! Does that, in your mind, mean gravity doesn't exist? Evolution is supported by practically every field of science. God however fails every scientific examination! About 5 billion years from now, the Sun will become a red giant and engulf the inner solar system, and Earth will be gone. And from that point on, the core of the Sun will cool to a white dwarf and eventually fade away. So much for the finely tuned universe your god made. All over the world there is science. It is not different science for different countries or cultures, it is all the same science, in fact identical science. Science text books are the same everywhere. But all over the world there are many different religions, with vastly different scriptual texts, fairly clearly delineated on national borders. How does a universal god only appeal to about a quarter of the world's population? Why are there nearly as many Muslims as there are Christians? There are over a billion Hindu! There are Buddhists, Taoists, Shinto, hundreds of different religions worshipping different gods. If a god was a universal reality there would only be a single religion, or a single one with minor variations, not many vastly different religions!

[@oggyoggy1299]

No, you’re wrong.

[@martinsoukup562]

Cliffe talking about science is making people dumber.

[@Abzero-mx2pb]

ignoring the atheists nervousness in debate, cliffe made some seriously stupid points. right off the bat cliffe is completely wrong, order does in fact come out of chaos as well as chaos out of order. "how do you get something from nothing in evolution?" you dont. where the hell cliffe and his followers get that idea is beyond me. we dont have any reason to believe the universe came out of nothing in the big bang model. christians all believe that though. im too bored to keep going

[@autisticphaglosophy7128]

Jews did this

[@ALE-vs9zp]

Christians agree that the big bang model came from something, God. If the big bang is the beginning of material existence, God caused it because something cannot come from nothing. Intellectually speaking there must be God because again creation started at some point, and creation indicates a creator. And on your first point, order absolutely does not come from chaos, there are exact opposites, you must give an explanation to how it is honestly possible that order can come from chaos

[@Abzero-mx2pb]

@@ALE-vs9zp what? christians do not agree on the big bang lmfao. most actively deny it. they do, however, argue that the big bang must come from something IF it were have happened. your concept of the big bang is skewed, its not the "beginning of matter", its simply the rapid expanse of the universe(in laymans terms). we do see it being the start of time though, which means asking any questions about a "before the bigbang", are nonsensical, as well as any cause-effect(because a cause is temporal). quantum physics shows that quark-antiquark pairs "pop" in and out of existence, so it might be possible for something to be "uncaused", although im not sure exactly how it works as i am not a quantum physicist. the only honest answer to the origin of the universe is "i dont know". order can come from chaos; within an open system. our universe is a closed system, meaning there is no external energy to it. our planet is an open system, which means that we take energy externally(the sun) and are sustained until that energy source depletes. this is how we can see order from chaos.

[@dailydoseofnumerology5891]

Pain is how we make rational thoughts. If we feel physical or mental pain we tend to stop doing whatever it is that is hurting us.

[@ssajdak]

Is it rational for me to say I'm never going to workout because that's painful to my body? Pain is a feeling. But not all painful things are bad or irrational to continue.

[@danlopez.3592]

Basically, we don’t know. He is just asserting that everything that begins to exist must have cause with giving no good proof.

[@christophersamueldearlysih262]

​@@科 If that's the case, then why is the universe expanding all the time without a cause, because all force needs to have another force push it right? If the universe was here all the time, then how do you explain the universe expanding? It must have a beginning point right, like a big bang. But a big bang needs something to make it, because all beginnings need a cause.

[@ballaboi9183]

@@科 yep thats what I thought as well he condradicted himself no one created the universe it always was . I just think it's stupid how while there are trillions and gazillions of planets and stars people on earth think they are the center of it all , they create all these religions and beliefs as if ''God'' created it all just for them , to follow a cult and live by the bible.

[@user-fj4dg2wm6z]

​@@科bro Ur comment makes no sense

[@AJK1DD]

If there is no cause then there is no objectiveness in morals, and anything goes. There's no meaning and it doesn't make sense. Didn't you hear him? The non rational can't give reason to the rational. It doesn't add up. Can a balloon create an AI? No, but we, who have reason, can. It won't be perfect, since we aren't, but it'll be reasonable enough

[@oldjoseph]

Does universe have an end?​@@christophersamueldearlysih262

[@crispinswainstonharrison9042]

Religions are transient. Christianity is fairly new. A newer one is Islam which looks like it’ll overtake Christianity soon. In 10K years there will be new ones that dominate.

[@lettus143]

i love these intelligent minds earnestly seeking truth, asking questions they actually want answers for. may god bless and watch over them. bring them home! cliffe is such a good advocate for the most high.

[@croqsieur]

I appreciate people like this student. They’re respectful and reasonable with genuine hearts and open minds to seek answers for what they do not understand. Not like those who immediately get triggered by the mere mention of God.

[@seantaylor4095]

I’m thinking of writing a book “How to convert Atheists to Religion - A beginners Guide” and wondered if you had any advice? Remember people, this is about winning hearts and minds! This is what I’ve got so far: Chapter 1: How to mock science for the absurdity of claiming the universe a) has a beginning and/or b) has no beginning (is infinite), whilst proclaiming the obvious truth of an infinite God, with no sense of irony. Chapter 2: How to mock the legitimacy of science, using selective pseudo-scientific ideas, whilst proving God through the scientific principles established in any given holy book of choice. Chapter 3: How to mock science for having scientists with contradictory views, whilst explaining there is only one version of God (albeit it with thousands of different interpretations and contradictions). Chapter 4: How to mock atheists for having no concept of good and evil because they have to decide for themselves, whilst theists fully understand good and evil, because it’s whatever their God tells them (otherwise known as the ‘suicide bomber justification’). Chapter 5: How to mock atheists/scientists for not being certain about things, which is clearly a far inferior position to hold than the absolute certainty of truth that we hold as theists. Chapter 6: How to mock atheists/scientists for believing in evolution, because everyone knows that the world is only 6500 years old and you can’t possibly grow a man from a fish. Chapter 7: How to mock scientists for their concept of evidence, which seems to involve repeatedly and empirically testing claims to establish predictable outcomes, as opposed to the far superior documentary evidence of second hand witness accounts of first century peasants. Chapter 8: How to mock atheists for denying the power of prayer, when God clearly prioritises the faith healing of middle class Americans over the less deserving starving African masses. Chapter 9: How to mock atheists over their disrespect of our religious leaders, who are perfectly justified in covering up any form of corruption or criminal behaviour within their ranks, because they are Gods chosen ones and beyond reproach. It’s only in draft form at the moment, but any more ideas on how we can convert these lost souls, or alternatively remove these godless creatures from the face of the earth, in the name of god’s love, would be much appreciated.

[@corywhitebread6519]

Sadly atheists dont believe in a god because they require evidence to prove such a thing exists. You can mock them all day long, but without proving your claims and using circular logic by only referencing an ancient old book is not going to win them over. The proof for evidence lies on the person making the claim. We atheists dont make claims we keep searching for evidence and so far no one has been able to prove a god let alone any specific god.

[@oatcake9996]

We have fossils much older than 6500 years old 😭 Educate yourself on the *theory* of evolution 😭 Explain how 2000 year old eyewitness testimony is better evidence than constant testing using logical methods 😭

[@onyx2187]

this gave me a chuckle

[@petritdauti]

This is a lovely joke, and this made me laugh. Please don't fall into the trap of hating people though. We are all clueless, whether we cling to God or to science or to pseudo intellectual nonsense, nobody knows the full truth about the universe. Let's find out together, and then help others find the truth ❤️

[@seantaylor4095]

@@petritdauti Of course, I completely agree with your sentiments. This is only meant to be satire (although it is meant to be pointed) and I don't hate anyone with honestly held religious convictions. I respect peoples right to believe whatever they like as long as they don't try and impose it on others. I do however have a strong dislike of religious institutions that exploit and manipulate people's desire to seek hope and find comfort in the world. Just as I have a strong dislike for clairvoyants who exploit people's emotional vulnerabilities, but not the people who go to them looking for peace of mind.

[@two-toneblue4872]

"(FULL DEBATE)" Nine minutes. A real deep dive into the topic.

[@APIAlchemist]

Man, they are on the street 💀

[@palawanhomeprovider]

Don’t disturb God, he is busy watching wars.

[@Julesjones-n5l]

Matthew 11:28. We cannot “disturb God” because God wants us to give our burdens to God. God loves you !

[@i_love_ujesus7228]

Humans create wars… its a sin issue not God’s

[@FantasyAimonsters]

​@@i_love_ujesus7228 pretty good way to blindfold the eyes of yourself and to make yourself in a false illusion that God exist.

[@mattopartaik]

@@FantasyAimonstersoh yeah all the world wars were created cus God said so, what a fuckin ridiculous argument, wars are man made, we broke Gods law, and man did wars, atrocities and evil.

[@Mattropolis97]

@@i_love_ujesus7228But god created humans right? If he’s “all powerful, all loving and all good” this universe would not exist as it does. Look up “the problem of evil”. It’s the biggest piece of evidence the Christian god does not exist. It takes free will and all those nonsense excuses you all preach into account too I promise

[@benitogenitojr8122]

Better to Think about GOD that can Give Eternal life with Great Something than Thinking about Death as the end of life and nothingness.

[@NotTheMaestro]

If you randomly sampled all the words in the English dictionary, eventually you’d get The Lord of the Rings.

[@larrycarter3765]

and.....?

[@NotTheMaestro]

@@larrycarter3765 tell me you don’t understand without telling me you don’t understand

[@portalingstudiosgaming7705]

​@@larrycarter3765 And this dude explained the start of evolution better and simplier then I ever did.

[@Elurin]

I think perhaps another way to phrase it, is that God, the creator, is an intrinsic property of reality, apart from time or space or the universe or multiverse (if we have one). Would it be fair to say that two conditions are possible: either matter/energy is an intrinsic property of reality, or God is? Both should be equally valid, from a scientific standpoint. But modern scientists (most of them) want to zero out the "God" possibility.

[@jonathanauffarth5646]

"Primordial soup" 1:02

[@Suriraa]

He's referring to abiogenesis. But Cliff bringing that up was irrelevant because abiogenesis is independent of evolution.

[@n9879]

If God is eternal and doesn’t have a beginning then it is perfectly acceptable for the exact same reason for the universe to be eternal and does not have a beginning. Moral values are valid in the particular human framework that we are looking at, they can be different in another framework and there is nothing to stop that whether you have absolute morals or not, someone might have different morals than you.

[@allanlee9520]

Religion answers everything to some. Forget logic and accept God, goddesses, angels, fairies, and all other spiritual hocus pocus. Science and theoretical evidence is real whether anyone believes it or not. You can show and prove a theory up to that point until more further data is needed to finalize it into fact. Not beliefs.

[@zeppa]

As a Christian, I 100% agree with you. Science is an amazing branch of knowledge that has helped advance our society in so many ways. I don’t think that any Christian would disagree with you. But as a Christian, I believe God created science as a means by which to code the universe.

[@jacoblee5796]

@@zeppa The problem with your line of thinking is god is answer for everything, making god an answer for nothing. You speak of science in such a respectful way but do you know how many times science has proved god or Christianity wrong in the past? Once upon a time the Church taught that Earth was the center of all things, science proved the Church was wrong. People used to think storms, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, ext were all caused by god/gods, science proved them wrong. You know what's never happened once? A religion/Christianity proving science wrong.

[@ronaldorivera4674]

You say science and theoretical evidence is real, do you know what and who gave rise to modern science and the scientific method? Let me give you a clue, it wasn't atheism. You really believe that the ones responsible for providing us with the tools to do science thought of science the way that you do, that it's either science or belief in God? I'm sorry to disappoint you, they wouldn't agree with you, in fact they would tell you, you have no understanding of what real science is. How about you try studying the very thing you're attempting to champion ( the rise of modern science). Look into people like Copernicus, the one responsible for giving us the heliocentric model for our universe and Francis Bacon the one who gave rise to the scientific method. Tycho Brahe the great astronomer and imperial mathematician who produced the most accurate table of astronomical observations, and so many others. Study the issue before regurgitating everything you hear, clueless.

[@wavemaker2077]

It's funny that you talk about theoretical evidence. I assume you are an atheist. As an atheist, you must believe that life came from non-life or abiogenesis. There are already countless lab experiments done about abiogenesis. Not one became successful. Not one scientist was able to create life from non-life. If you are a rational and a logical person, you would accept by now that abiogenesis doesn't happen. Theoretical evidence points to abiogenesis as not happening at all. If life didn't come from non-life, then a creator God created life. That is the only other option left. There is no third option. So if you believe in science and if you believe in evidence, then you have to believe in God. Unless you have faith that abiogenesis might happen someday.

[@dexio8601]

It's all hocus pocus until you have an experience, when you experience a love x 1000 any earthly love it goes from hocus pocus to very real real..

[@apelkeyvtpc1]

He can logic his way to "God is eternal and has no beginning/end" but can't apply the same logic to the existence of the universe. Humans not fully understanding the timeline of the universe does not prove the existence of god.

[@davidplummer2473]

Lots of gripes in here about Cliffe's claim that order can't come from chaos. Maybe a better way to put it is to ask, does disorder have creative power? Is entropy the cause of the upward pressure in biology toward ever more complex organisms? The examples I've seen so far in here if order from chaos are like claiming that water miraculously takes the shape of a bucket when poured into a bucket -- and therefore, given enough time, it will form itself into a world-class ice sculpture that can do your taxes and has hopes, fears and dreams. Disorder has no creative power in a universe where entropy is king. That pressure toward organization has to come from elsewhere.

[@matheusazevedooliveira8222]

But order cant really come from caos. If it did, then it wouldnt be chaos, but rather order. Those are conflicting terms

[@Wmeester1971]

"Disorder has no creative power in a universe where entropy is king. That pressure toward organization has to come from elsewhere." That is a really ignorant statement. Low entropy from the sun can create order from chaos. That is how plant based life such are trees get the energy to grow. This is why snowflakes are forms when entropy decreases and crystals form when material cools down. You're just parroting creationist misleading creationist slogans.

[@BrianBadondeBo]

Order may be a stopping point along the way from one disorder to the next. Taxes and world class ice sculptures aren't eternal things. And even if this wasn't the case, that the perceived order means there must be a conscious agent manipulating the universe into its course, it really calls in to question the moral character of such a conscious agent- because it seems the health and well-being of life is somewhat of an afterthought

[@88Padilla]

He's debating with college students so that's why their questions are pretty basic and predictable. They're also the easiest crowd next to high school students to mislead. Perfect for recruiting.

[@88Padilla]

​@@matheusazevedooliveira8222 that's perceived chaos and perceived order. If you can claim that it is all order, you can also claim that it is all chaos. There will be periods of chaos and order that alternate between/follow each other. If you have a box filled with perpetually bouncing balls, there will be periods where some appear to be bouncing in a pattern or in sync with each other before the trajectory of one collides and breaks up the pattern. That is what order and chaos looks like.

[@Miraak1868]

I have been atheist sine age 19. I am atheist now at 80. Atheism all the way.

[@jp22344]

Without even watching a second of this video, the title is very misleading. No meaning debate happens in less than 9 minutes. Be honest and call this what it is: a discussion or interchange or conversation. It has no resemblance to a debate, by the sheer length of it alone. It is not uncommon for people to misuse the term “debate “ even with the best intentions.

[@jokertrees7035]

This literally fits the definition of debate, look it up

[@InfoSphereExploration69]

I'm a Muslim and you helped me understand the cosmological argument more clearly, thanks a lot.

[@hisrighthandsaves]

Christian here. Just as an atheist didn’t become that way without human influence, the same can be said about a Christian. I don’t think atheist ever think about that. Or if they do, they don’t acknowledge it. People teach other people and influence them. There is an arrogance to atheism. I know I once was one. Then I move to agnosticism, when I let my intellectual pride go. What a atheist really claims is, they have all the evidence in the world and prove that God does not exist. Some of the brightest people in the world that were atheist, most of them spend their entire life, decades trying to convince others that God isn’t real. I have heard every irrational argument supporting why they vehemently hate religious people. Probably the best was, a Christian(s) told my family they were going to hell, and my family was living in fear, so I’m on a mission to dismantle Christianity. I actually don’t believe that is true. This individual has a huge following on different online channels. Listening to him, you can tell he has a lot of hurt, and that he is fighting hard to keep himself convinced that there is zero possible of a higher power. It shows you that people care too much about what others think of them, and others opinions. There’s a lot more I could get into.

[@awoj51]

You cannot prove or disprove non- existent, invisible, beings.

[@loggothedoggo]

@@awoj51 true, but you can seek the overwhelming evidence of him being real.

[@brianherndon1209]

Problem is no God has been proven let alone proven to be eternal

[@APIAlchemist]

The mental gymnastics he goes through to reach that conclusion is real.

[@thomasvannieulande5470]

“ an atheist will say a rational mind comes from the non rational. That doesnt make any sense.” Your right, your statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. A rational mind can absolutely be created from a non rational mind do you what that is called? EVOLUTION!

[@verko5292]

God revealed himself as eternal? One has to be smoking something really powerful in order to believe that.

[@EnoughSaid-bw9pk]

but... there is no proof, just saying.. so..

[@SomeKid974]

Religion is all about faith, you need to take the very reasonable evidence and come up with a belief based on that evidence.

[@arsstv]

Cliffe immediately ran off a cliff in the first minute after he said that order can’t come from chaos. Because it sure as hell can. So yeah, try harder, because you still fail miserably.

[@Chidds]

Demonstrate that the universe came into existence.

[@spacecoastz4026]

Demonstrate that the universe is eternal. Evidence points that it had a beginning. There is no evidence that it's eternal. Even basic logic says that that is unreasonable.

[@Chidds]

@@spacecoastz4026 Time, as we know it, is built into the fabric of the universe. Therefore, there can be no point in time when the universe has not existed.

[@spacecoastz4026]

@@Chidds That is why the very first verse of the Bible explains its. In the beginning (the start of time), God made the heavens (space) and the earth. Think about that...God gave that wisdom and understanding to a man thousands of years ago.

[@Chidds]

Other ancient myths have better creation stories.

[@Rahner79]

Big Bang cosmology proves that the universe had a finite beginning. There is no evidential model that supports that the universe is eternal. The universe is measurable from its background radiation and is demonstrated to be 13.7 billion years old give or take 200 million years.

[@carolknapp2824]

Cliff debates Matt, poor cliff

[@PlumpClump]

where? need to see that...

[@mirandahotspring4019]

How dumb can it get? Cliffe argues that claiming a universe comes from nothing is stupid, then happily asserts his god made it... from NOTHING! Saying it comes from nothing is a straw man anyway! We don't know for sure where it came from. The Big Bang wasn't necessarily the absolute beginning of everything, it was just the beginning of the universe as we know it, a point our current knowledge of physics allows us to see back to. It was a stage where sub atomic particles fluctuated in and out of existence. The current hypothesis is that a singularity of almost infinite heat and density rapidly inflated and created the first sub atomic particles. The Big Bang. But our current understanding of physics does not allow us to see back further than this rapid inflation. In fact we can't see back beyond the Planck Epoch. Anything prior to this is purely conjecture. But as the First Law of Thermodynamics states that energy cannot be created or destroyed; it can only be converted from one form to another, we can conclude that the universe existed in a different form or state prior to the Big Bang. Perhaps as a ball of pure energy. Then he goes on to straw man atheists claiming atheists say their rational mind comes from the non rational and mocks it. I've never heard any atheist make that claim! You know your biblical cost for lying Cliffe!

[@martindj1988]

“How dumb can you get?” And how ignorant can you get?

[@mirandahotspring4019]

@@martindj1988 Probably as dumb and as ignorant as the idiots who believe Cliffe's bullshit! That's about as dumb and ignorant as its possible to get.

[@kidNamedEedd]

@@martindj1988 bro did not read allat

[@davidsheriff9274]

The whole thing is disingenuous anyway because the preacher is making a case for deism, but he is a Christian preacher, so his job is to convince us of a theistic Christian world view.It's a classic Motte and Bailey fallasy. He doesn't want to make the argument for Christianity, because he knows it's ridiculous on any scientific or rational level, so he reverts back to the safety of a more palatable reasonable argument, (that can be easily scientifically disputed as you say), but at least it doesn't involve a virgin birth and a guy coming back from the dead.

[@IAMJ1B]

God is everything. We need to make from something god did from nothing. Now u got it

[@sailorush]

Bro is SPITTING straight FACTS

[@majmage]

Are you serious? So if I claim the order/design of the cosmos was caused by a leprechaun, then you're just going to blindly believe (A) the order/design I vaguely mention exists, and (B) it was caused by leprechauns, and (c) so that proves leprechauns? That isn't "facts". It's a baseless assertion.

[@TheKantele]

@@majmage Are you serious? A leprechaun? God is omnipotent and omniscient - a leprechaun is not. Even in fantasy, a leprechaun has very limited powers.

[@majmage]

@@TheKantele Do you understand that if an argument can be shown to be illogical, then it can't be evidence? My explanation shows why Cliffe's argument isn't logical. The type of error is called "fallacy of bare assertion". Just a fancy way of saying that Cliffe is saying something is true for no reason. (He isn't presenting logic or evidence. He's just saying (A) order/design of the cosmos exists, and (B) God caused it.) Which took us to my counter-example of saying leprechauns caused it. It's an equally good argument. (Meaning: it's not a good argument. *It's a terrible argument.* That's the point! It's illogical. It's saying something is true without evidence. Nobody should respect arguments like that.) Well my argument doesn't call Cliffe wrong for no reason. I've explained my reasons, based on logic.

[@majmage]

@@TheKantele Yeah I'm seriously explaining why *just saying things are true for no reason* isn't a good argument. Do you think Cliffe's argument is good? If you do, then my leprechaun argument is also good. The reason my leprechaun argument is bad isn't the one you mentioned -- after all you're clearly not describing the order/design-causing leprechauns I've told you exist. The mistake to my argument is *I'm just saying something is true for no reason.* That's an error called "fallacy of bare assertion". When a person just says something is true for no reason, we know that isn't a good reason to think it's true. It's not logical. So because Cliffe isn't providing evidence/logic arguing for a god with his order/design argument, *it isn't logical.* So it isn't evidence.

[@TheKantele]

@@majmage You are wrong. Cliffe's argument about God [with omnipotence and omniscience] is a much better argument than yours about the leprechaun [which lacks omnipotence and omniscience]. You will find people spending thousands of hours and giving thousands of comments debating the possibility of God as the cause for things existing. However, no serious time or discussion is ever spent proposing the leprechaun as a causative agent. The leprechaun is a very weak proposal for a causative agent.

[@maharorand507]

God doesn t have a beginning, because he is "the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the *Beginning* and the End"

[@majmage]

The entire problem is nobody can prove any god exists. By extension you can't claim to know any details about a god (like that they don't have a beginning).

[@maharorand507]

@@majmage well, it s the same process of creation as for a computer : the creator of the computer must be outside of the computer to create it. Since there is time, God created it, therefore he s outside of it, so he doesn t have a beginning, there is nothing before him.

[@majmage]

@@maharorand507 Sure but you've just run into tons of problems. 1. Does (a) everything or (b) not everything have a cause? If "a", an uncaused god is impossible, but if "b" then causation cannot be an argument for a god (because any given thing might be uncaused). 2. 100% of the creators we're aware of so far aren't gods. So by default an argument for a creator isn't an argument for a god (in fact when believers' arguments retreat to "creator" it makes their argument seem weaker, not stronger). 3. But sure, if the universe is like things inside the universe (and that may *not* be the case) then the cause would be something not made of *the universe's time/space/matter.* How does that get you a step towards a god? (You can't even demonstrate the cause of our universe is timeless/spaceless/immaterial with this rule. And you'd need to go past that to show the cause was an actual god, which you haven't presented any evidence of.)

[@maharorand507]

@@majmage Alright, i understand your arguments, but let me try to answer you in the best way i can : 1. Causality is the best answer. You talked about IF "a" is an impossible uncaused god. Therefore, if it is right, then God would be limited, so he wouldn t be God. So this is why i believe He created everything, which leads us to the 2nd point. 2. I may not understand what you mean by "creators" here, but if all creators aren t gods, that doesn t mean that gods cannot be creators. Besides, the definition itself of "God" is "an eternal, unique, judge and CREATOR being". 3. I did not say that the universe is like things inside a universe. I said that to create a universe, you must be outside of it (and powerful enough to create something that can expand infinitely -therefore, you must be infinitely powerful-). By following this "rule", the creator of the universe (which countains time, space and matter) must be eternal, out of time. And the only beings with such properties are only gods, and not anything else. We, humans, have given these all-powerful, all-knowing beings the name of gods, which leads to any supernatural beings (all natural things are considered being inside of the universe, so beyond it are all supernatural things). Warning : we cannot prove anything in life. We can only have enough evidences, may they be strong or weak, to consider the theory as proved. If you feel any doubt or counter argument, please give them to me in a respectful way, to turn our debate to a fruitful and intellectually useful ending. (I did not say you weren t being respectful though)

[@majmage]

@@maharorand507 Your response to the first point doesn't address the problem. The problem is we live in a reality where one of these must be true: (A) everything or (B) not everything has a cause. If causality is a hard rule (that's "A") then God must have a cause, and so most believers cannot accept "A" (it contradicts their idea of an uncaused god). That commits you to "B", but then if "B" is your answer then causality isn't a hard rule (not everything has a cause). That specifically applies to arguments that try to say a god is needed to cause everything, otherwise how could it start. Those arguments do this dishonest thing where they want to say causality is a hard rule (answer "A") for the first part of their argument, but they want to conclude an uncaused god exists (which requires answer "B"). So they switch answers mid-argument. To be clear, you didn't make a full argument like that (and so you also didn't make the mistake I just described), I was probably premature to even make that point about causality. 2. Agreed, if a boy grows up and sees only red cars that doesn't prove green cars don't exist. Similarly 100% of the creators being non-gods so far doesn't prove there can't be a creator god. But it demonstrates why *the word "creator"* is off topic. If you want to convince an atheist avoid the word entirely -- you either have an argument that can conclude with a god, or your argument is extremely poor evidence. 3. My example of me simulating a universe and *still experiencing time* is why the cause of our own universe isn't necessarily timeless. It's probably outside the time *of our universe,* but most arguments try to say it's "timeless". (This also sabotages their own arguments, because time is actually required to separate events; it doesn't seem possible for a timeless being to cause or do anything.) 4. *I'm asking for evidence of a god.* If you see me use the word "prove" I'm using it only in the casual sense of _having enough evidence to justify believing an idea._ Do you feel you've presented sufficiently strong evidence of a god? I feel like I've explained why the arguments I did see don't seem to reasonably get us to a god conclusion (they aren't proof in that casual sense). I definitely veered off topic a little bit, trying to pin down points I suspected you might try to make, and probably I shouldn't have done that. But many of these conversations fizzle out so quickly and there are so many important points to make that sometimes I get ahead of myself.

[@TheEnderCyclops]

I don’t see how any of Cliffe’s arguments are convincing.

[@eddyeldridge7427]

They're not supposed to be. It's supposed to provide comfort to those who already believe.

[@TheEnderCyclops]

@@eddyeldridge7427 Makes sense

[@j.whisper2379]

Cliff proving again his lack of education! Evolution has nothing to do with origins. Evolution addresses how speciation occurs.

[@BeastOfSleek]

I am a solid Christian, and I thank this man for being very respectful.

[@Nan45566]

I still wonder why some of these so called rational-minded people when they come to India, they accept Hinduism just like that. They hardly question the Sadhus.

[@Heinstein69]

It just proves that those "rational-minded" people who accepted Hinduism, weren't so rational-minded to begin with.

[@stephenw8129]

They just want to be counter cultural against their own culture. Since Christianity is the primary religion in the West, they focus all their effort against it and rarely critic other religions for fear of being considered a bigot.

[@mirandahotspring4019]

@@Heinstein69 What an absolutely arrogant thing to say! Hindu have as much right to their beliefs as anyone else is to whatever belief they hold.

[@victorvolobuev507]

@@Heinstein69 true, or as I heard someone say, they are so open minded, their brains fell out. Personally, it think what happened was that humans have free will and , by being “open minded” as they say, means that the are open to sin, corruption and fallacy, but at the same time, if one is open to corruption, how can he therefore accept reason, facts, truth and the moral law? So the Bible is proven right once again, “Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭1‬:‭22‬-‭27‬

[@victorvolobuev507]

@@mirandahotspring4019 because cow worship is called idolatry in the Bible. We are taught not to worship anything in creation. Worship only belongs to the Creator of the universe. That’s actually covered in the first two Commandments of the Ten. I mean disrespect to any Hindu and i do not wish for them to perish, my only hope is for them to desire to search and love the truth, and i sincerely believe God will give them a heart to discern between truth and fiction, fact and lie, if they so desire.

[@Suriraa]

Ok I'm a little over a minute in but Cliff has a gross understaning of evolution and cosmology even in just their most basic forms. He makes an assertion about cosmology and then cites Einstein without actually basing it on a proper premise. Also with evolution all he does is strawman what it is. Evolution is a process that all living organisms follow not a process for creating life. The fact that he bought that up is irrelevant to evolution because its outside of evolutions scope. We know evolution is a thing, but when you bring up creation of life thats more of something within the scope of abiogenesis. This is just dishonest rhetoric by Cliff. If he has little knowledge on the topic, just admit that. Sometimes when you don't have the answer to something its ok to say, "I don't know"

[@relaxmore2319]

He was talking about survival of the fittest. Meaning having babies with others and continuing the genetic pool. I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say.

[@Suriraa]

@@relaxmore2319 no, he redirected both theories into areas they don’t cover, which means he doesn’t know what they are. If you want to debunk evolution or the Big Bang, you address what it is and what it covers, not talk about a topic independent of them and use that as a premise

[@BSAWYER100]

Who made god

[@ALE-vs9zp]

God isnt made, allow me to elaborate. If accept the presupposition of God, you accept the qualities that make up god, mainly that he is eternal, immaterial, and spaceless. Eternal meaning that He has no beginning or end, He was before us, and will be after us. I hope this is understandable

[@max_trnw]

none, He created everything, the question is unlogically, if God created everything like time and so on... but its not really Imaginable for humans in 3d

[@Trumpulator]

"God doesn't have a beginning." Hearsay dismissed.

[@TROY31688]

Love Cliffe. He is awesome

[@AlexThomas-hq1dn]

2:50 how you know God is eternal

[@clarissa_v.v]

@AlexThomas-hq1dn Because God revealed himself to be so, when He claimed to be the creator of space and time, if He created time then it is clear that He lives outside of time; hence, making him eternal, in other words, having no beginning and no end. Time began when He created it. It didn’t exist before then.

[@damebanteisyiemlieh-xd9nu]

He die and he rose again from the dead that's prove that there is eternal life and he is eternal

[@Jbcampello]

​@damebanteisyiemlieh-xd9nu God is outside the realm of time, so the concept of cause and effect doesn't apply to him

[@camthomson3260]

​@@Jbcampello​​ Surely you can understand how incredibly convenient that is when you're asked to prove something. Create a person/thing that doesn't abide by all known examples of proof and existence. Meaning if you don't need to explain God's beginning/inception then why should scientists or atheists have to explain the beginning of the universe. The debate/argument is cyclical.

[@Trumpulator]

All the answers are hearsay OPINIONS - not credible evidence. Religious opinions dismissed.

[@annagattellari85]

God dose Exst.God is Almighty ❤️

[@larrycarter3765]

dose Exst ?

[@colonalklink14]

Cliffe Knecktle has another gospel. He redefines faith as obedience and belief as total commitment. He says it's not by works but immediately tells you that saving faith is never alone. Free grace is the only true gospel. Saving repentance is realizing that you are a sinner deserving of God's just punishment in Hell and turn (repent) from whatever you trusted in before, if indeed you trusted in anything; to trusting in the person and finished work of Christ alone for salvation.

[@victorvolobuev507]

“Faith as obedience” Was Abraham righteous? What did Abraham do that’s written about in the Bible that God attributed righteousness to him? “And he(Abraham) believed in the Lord(God promised him descendants as many as stars in heaven), and He accounted it to him for righteousness.” ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15‬:‭6‬ I added the parentheses. Check your Bible for yourself. In other words Abraham’s faith in God’s word was counted as obedience to God and therefore granted righteousness. Abraham didn’t do anything, he trusted God to hold his promise, that’s all. As for total commitment, this happens when a person decides to follow Christ, he then is baptized which is the official symbol of total commitment to God, being dead to sin and alive for good works. “Not by works” Indeed, if a person goes before a judge and he has raped and killed someone, but now he changed his ways, so he tells the judge, “i dont kill and rape anymore, I also feed the poor and hungry, provide housing, clothing and food for orphans and i go help widows with home maintenance” The judge will not pardon him and say, “oh you changed, so that’s ok, you can go. No, people would call that judge corrupt and unjust if he did that. No, the judge will say, “it’s good that you changed, as you should, and it’s good that you aid the poor and needy, as you should. But crimes of murder and rape were committed and justice requires recompense. In other words, no amount of good works can blot out our evil deeds before God, only the blood of Jesus can wash our sin away. And then after repentance and faith in Jesus, yes, good works for God will store up treasure for the believer in Heaven.

[@verdadabsoluta9756]

The fruit of your faith is obedience!

[@colonalklink14]

@@verdadabsoluta9756 You are just backloading works into the gospel.

[@colonalklink14]

@@verdadabsoluta9756 You are just backloading works into the gospel.

[@bruth6138]

Flying unicorns are real. Prove me wrong.

[@victorvolobuev507]

Are you saying, you don’t know this already? Does this mean what? Are atoms, photons and viruses radiation, justice, love, thoughts real? Maybe we should question their existence too.

[@RichLunaMusic]

They don't exist in the material world but they do in our inner world.

[@DamianForReal]

Ah yes, cause you have high quality eye-witness testimonies that document about what happened and then get brutally killed because you're getting too popular because everybody knew or heard about it

[@oggyoggy1299]

I rode one last night. We travelled at a trillion times the speed of light and blasted straight through God’s head. He’s dead. RIP God.

[@victorvolobuev507]

@@oggyoggy1299 you’re about 2k years too late for that party, the Jews at the hands of their Roman colonizers, already did that. Funny thing about Jesus, he claimed to be the Son of God in the flesh, and he has authority over death, because the wages of sin is death and that’s why we humans perish. But since He had no sin, The Father found Him worthy and gave Him all power and honor and flory so that every knee will bow to Him. And he rose and conquered death. All praise belongs to God!

[@inj_ir3301]

Надеюсь переводчик работает. Для начала - я сторонник теории цикличности, что все во вселенной бесконечно расширяется и сжимается. Происходит Большой Взрыв, вся материя во вселенной сосредотачивается в одной точке, а затем расширяется, формируя звезды, галактики и черные дыры, а затем когда одна из черных дыр становится настолько тяжёлой, то она становится центром вселенной и останавлиет частицы которые вме ещë летят из-за большого взрыва. Таким образом все опять собирается в одной точке, материя обрушивается внутрь себя и опять происходит Большой Взрыв. И рассказывая про эту теорию вопрос: "Что было до Большого Взрыва, откуда взяласб вся материя?" также некоректен как вопрос "Кто создал бога?". Процесс цикличности бесконечен, а значит не имеет начала и конца, как прямая линия в математике. Есть только одна точка - пересечение с осью, а именно та точка где находиися мы сейчас. Спасибо тем кто прочитал, надеюсь на конструктианый ответ

[@fazole]

If the universe does operate in cycles, does that negate the Creator? What is your analysis of the Fibonacci sequence found throughout nature? How does a logical geometric progression come about through random interactions in nature and even the universe? I find it very interesting that the woodpecker's tongue wraps around its brain to act as a schock absorber to protect the brain from too much shaking when the bird pecks rapidly. How can that simply evolve? There are so many similar examples found in nature. I hope this post isn't too late. Thank you.

[@josuejumalon]

God is the mos plausible explanation of everything.

[@JLWarren]

🤣

[@spacecoastz4026]

Sadly people don't want to accept that, because that would mean they are accountable to God.

[@JLWarren]

@@spacecoastz4026 That you don’t see the failure of logic in that self-validating assertion speaks volumes.

[@spacecoastz4026]

@@JLWarren You know I'm right. Once you acknowledge God, then your world-view has to change.

[@JLWarren]

@@spacecoastz4026 Think for two seconds just how insane it is to believe you actually have direct access to the mind of another person, to tell them what knowledge they possess, simply because an ancient book says you do. Then critically analyze what’s more probable: that your belief in one specific deity has given you literal psychic access to my mind or that you were indoctrinated by a cult into believing you do as a self-affirmation tactic? And how could I rationally acknowledge something as if it existed for which there is no evidence that it exists? You haven’t thought much about this have you?

[@missouritravelers]

God of the gaps is not an explanation

[@JamesJustice-rs5yc]

BIG BANGS do not create but destroys !!!!!!!!!!!! 😉

[@mirandahotspring4019]

The term Big Bang was coined by Fred Hoyle during a talk for a March 1949 BBC Radio broadcast, saying: "These theories were based on the hypothesis that all the matter in the universe was created in one big bang at a particular time in the remote past."

[@JamesJustice-rs5yc]

@@mirandahotspring4019 God Jehovah SPOKE everything into existence

[@mirandahotspring4019]

@@JamesJustice-rs5yc Yeah, from NOTHING. What bullshit!

[@THECerato]

we will never know when the universe started and we will never know its end,to the human eye its infinite but maybe reality is somewhat different

[@melvynwalker3661]

The truth is nobody knows

[@AuntyArthur]

Cliff talks nonsense every time and does not understand science.

[@greeneggsandham760]

Did you even watch the video

[@IL1keDirt]

@@greeneggsandham760 I dont think he did

[@lindabueckert9559]

I love this.. a nice calm debate without name calling and anger.

[@evildan524]

It's interesting that something can't come from nothing unless that something is god because conveniently god has always been there.

[@Jerahzz]

He’s eternal outside of our knowledge of space, time and matter. He can’t be inside space time and matter and also create space time and matter. That’s like looking at your iPhone and saying “well I don’t see Steve Jobs in here so he couldn’t have created the IPhone.”

[@evildan524]

I believe a unicorn that exists outside of our knowledge of space, time and matter expelled the universe from its bottom. How is your belief in the formation of the universe any more valid than mine.

[@Jerahzz]

@@evildan524 Were we made in the image of unicorns? Where is your evidence for such a claim?

[@schlauchmeister234]

"something can't come from nothing unless that something is god" - Straw man fallacy, as that is not the belief Cliffe expressed. God being eternal means your notion of "come from" doesn't apply. There was no "come from" moment with God.

[@evildan524]

@@Jerahzz I'm not claiming we were made in the image of unicorns.

[@Malaka300]

We need more of these types of discussions.

[@LouieSankey]

I've noticed that theists will take everything from science that suits their perspective, and discard everything from science that disagrees with it. Funny how that works, isn't it?

[@victorvolobuev507]

No offense, but you may want to bring at least one example of this. And also, where is it written that theists are right? No, they make mistakes just like anyone else, but hopefully we all are willing to correct our own mistakes and fallacies.

[@LouieSankey]

​@@victorvolobuev507 Cliff does it in the video. He points to the Big Bang and says 'that's proof of a beginning'. But that's not actually what science concludes.

[@victorvolobuev507]

@@LouieSankey sorry, but i don’t agree with Cliff on that point and will not defend it, although there was a time I also believed big bang and evolution a plausible theories. They have too many conjectures, but lack basic scientific and logical evidence. I understand the chain they are trying to make, but the missing links are to buggy and too big to ignore. Yeah, Cliffe is wrong about evolution and if he believes there was a big bang, he’s wrong there too. Everything else seems logical to me. Rationality cannot come if chaos makes the rules. Similarly with order and structure and consistency. I have yet to understand how inanimate mater became life by random chance, even if it was an amoeba. There is no hard evidence of an amoeba changing it’s DNA to become seaweed, or sand dollar or plankton or whatever it is that’s supposed to be next on the evolutionary chain of most simple organism to the next more complex. Also, how did non sentient life become sentient, is beyond me if we were to follow the evolutionary theory. Evolution can make no sense of any of it.

[@victorvolobuev507]

No to mention the primate conundrum, why are humans the only ones to have reached sentience and none of the other branches. Or why do we still have primates like gorillas and orangutans if humans are the higher evolutionary species up the chain? And branches of a tree or roots of a tree doesnt explain any of this. Because a tree’s DNA is constistent whether it’s roots, trunk, leaves or branches. The evolutionary theory of species branches and their DNA are inconsistent.

[@zacsimillion]

You do know that For the past millennial scientists have assumed the universe had to be eternal and it wasn’t until the discovery of the big bang that they have conceded the universe is finite. In fact they very much hated the evidence for the big bang because it aligned with the Bible exactly.

[@drinkwater719]

Nothing about what he is saying is rational!!!!!

[@gknight4719]

The creative mechanism for cause, is chemistry and physics!

[@ZIAFN]

Can you have chemistry and physics come from nothing?

[@gknight4719]

@@ZIAFN That question, as in why there is something rather then nothing, has never been answered! Some put a magic man "god" into the mix.what say you?

[@paulnone9984]

The only problem with that way of thinking is that if you're saying that physics and using science can Define things then you still have to explain where science comes from because if the universe was created out of nothing then science can't say that something was created from nothing. Even other famous atheists believe the universe had a beginning. So by logic, you can't have something created out of nothing by science. No science would have existed yet if there was nothing.

[@gknight4719]

@@paulnone9984 Firstly i do not know what nothing is, do you? for nothing to exist, one would have to remove time, space , matter , and all quantum interactions, how do you do that?

[@paulnone9984]

@@gknight4719 you're exactly right. You'd have to have no space, time and matter to have nothing. So therefore, something spaceless, timeless and immaterial had to create space time and matter

[@anjalE30]

An atheist is better off in judgment than someone that is religious Atheist do not believe - so they have no knowledge of the truth. And do not claim that they know the law of God BUT the spirit of religion claims to know ALL truths. And since they claim to know all truths, yet disregard the law And do not heed to the teachings of the holy spirit, But make your own interpretations, unto your own understanding And judge others by such, Now u stand CONDEMNED

[@HeatherBussardBalesAKANana]

This kid sounds so Lost. But he's Teachable. And that counts for something. I pray the Lord reveals himself to this young man.

[@Penobscot-xs6xg]

I normally don't see stuff with one view but the Bible is pure evil Deuteronomy 22:28-29 says:"If a man finds a young woman who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her, and they are found out, then the man who lay with her shall give to the young woman’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife because he has humbled her; he shall not be permitted to divorce her all his days." Deuteronomy 21:18-21 - Stoning Rebellious Sons: This law prescribes the death penalty for a stubborn and rebellious son. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 says:"When you go out to war against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hand, and you take them captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and you desire her and would take her for your wife, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall put off the clothes of her captivity, remain in your house, and mourn her father and her mother a full month; after that you may go in to her and be her husband, and she shall be your wife. And it shall be, if you have no delight in her, then you shall set her free; but you certainly shall not sell her for money; you shall not treat her brutally, because you have humbled her."

[@IL1keDirt]

You must consider that the bible is written in Hebrew and translations can be mixed up. You should also know that taking these verses out of context without breaking it down and learning deeply about it, can give you a very bad meaning and view point of the bible. Do not be fooled. Deuteronomy 22:28-29........ According to the skeptic, these verses teach that a man who rapes a woman gets to have her as his wife. The skeptic then demands that any God who would reward a rapist with the woman he rapes is wicked and immoral. Thus the God of the Bible cannot be the loving God Christians say He is. The reason the skeptic at first glance seems to have something of a case is simply because most English translations of these verses do not accurately render the original intent of the Hebrew. To be fair, this issue causes even those who are not skeptically minded some difficulty. When most English speakers hear that a person has “seized” another person, we necessarily jump to the conclusion that it is a violent action against the will of the other person. This problem has been aggravated by the fact that some translations inaccurately and mistakenly translate the word as “rape.” The truth is, however, the Hebrew word in this case translated “seizes” (tapas) can mean many things.

[@JayWalker200]

Believing in a God that was always there is stupidity! Where's the cause?😂

[@iwillsurvive6156]

You don't believe God exists? What'll you do if God exists then?

[@JayWalker200]

​@@iwillsurvive6156Will ask him why he never shows himself and why he allows so much suffering!

[@iwillsurvive6156]

@@JayWalker200 Being a believer is better than not being a believer in God.

[@JayWalker200]

​@@iwillsurvive6156How so?

[@iwillsurvive6156]

@@JayWalker200 You can't prove or disprove that God exists, however it's still better to bet on the existence of God. If you are an atheist, let's say that God isn't real, then there would be nothing after you die. However, if God is real, you, an atheist won't be going to heaven. But if you're a believer in God and follow God, you'll either go to heaven or if God isn't real, you won't go anywhere. So in conclusion, its better to be a believer than to be an atheist. This is called Pascal's Wager.

[@sisterrose6836]

Like I have heard many times before, then where did God come from?

[@38kdoncorleone]

God is eternal

[@TheEnderCyclops]

@@38kdoncorleoneWhy can’t the same be said for the universe?

[@IL1keDirt]

@@TheEnderCyclops Because the universe is expanding. There is evidence to support that. as time goes on, the universe expands, meaning it had to have a starting point(Big bang theory) .That's Logical to think.

[@TheEnderCyclops]

@@IL1keDirt Yes, the Big Bang theory. That still doesn’t prove god exists. Also there’s an idea that the universe is infinitely expanding, contracting and expanding again which I think has some merit

[@bms77]

Cliffe also doesn’t understand survival of the fittest LOL

[@user-gg8zz4cy5i]

7:58 Cliffe argues with great clarity against his own religion

[@C4rdion]

As someone who doesn't outright believe in god and has spent countless hours thinking about it, I genuinely think God is THE best written god if looked at from a fictional standpoint. Mankind from the beginning of our existence always tried to find answers for things. We are intelligent enough to be able to draw connection in everything, which is the reason science exists. But for this simple reason, God is unarguable, because God can't be traced back to anything it is eternal, there is no possible way to disprove God aside from looking at religion and the birth of christanity. Which is why most athiests and for a long time myself completely rid myself of religion, hence there is no way to disprove God himself. I hope this made some sense, it's hard to put my thoughts together on this matter.

[@Neudn3.]

If god is real, then why is there suffering?

[@WifiSavage71]

A lot of people ask that question, and it's because when Adam and Eve ate the apple that's what brought sin into the world.

[@Neudn3.]

@@WifiSavage71 Okay, thank you.

[@Neudn3.]

@@WifiSavage71 I was truly wondering

[@ldphoenix3]

Because god either doesn’t exist or isn’t loving and enjoys human suffering

[@Neudn3.]

@@ldphoenix3 I do t think he exists, because if he did we wouldn’t be living under the threat of everythribg

[@BobbyMcDonald-wq7il]

Your god is a manufactured spiritual entity, that's Deriven from the depths of infinity.

[@majm9309]

I mean they believe in nonsense, but what you said was also nonsense.

[@animalliberationCLBB]

A Masterpiece ❤ extremely Thought provoking ❤ thanks

[@Rolando_Cueva]

Before 2:20 we get an argument for Deism, and then bang! It's about Jesus all of a sudden. To be fair, he did ask for something besides the Bible. That's obviously not possible since it's a very specific God, who presumably not only created the Universe but also does all these things that the Bible claims.

[@queen.alvona]

This guy is just too good. I would pay a ridiculous amount of money to see him debate Richard Dawkins

[@stefanwikander1336]

You mean the religious one? Seriously? This is the most crazy guy and the one with the worst arguments I've seen in years.

[@APIAlchemist]

Even though he had a stroke, he would still destroy this guy.

[@socrates1285]

Statements like God has no beginning and no end is eternal is in itself paradoxical. As stated by Kant. And moral absolutes at best give an agnostic perspective of god.

[@IAMJ1B]

Hi socrates this is 21st century

[@socrates1285]

@@IAMJ1B Hey Man. I count 25 centuries just from my age alone and Perhaps the scales too are just relative !

[@IAMJ1B]

What about your "new gods"? They became old and died 😂

[@socrates1285]

@@IAMJ1B Well actually some of them wanted to accept someone as their lord and saviour before dying but they did not know whose name to call.

[@SSJGaelY0]

have you read Nietzche’s “Birth of Tragedy”? he does not like you mr socrates

[@Mattropolis97]

Sees “Full Debate” in title. Sees 9:01 video Me who watches lots of debates on this subject “????😂😂”

[@conservativeyogi]

The guys is wrong. He’s right that God is eternal, but wrong to think the universe is not eternal or has a beginning and end. Per Vedas - God is eternal, Maya (inert energy of God) is also eternal, Jeev (conscious energy of God) is also eternal. The multiple universes manifests and dissolves from and into God in infinite cycles.

[@menonjoefalcao]

Oh thanks for allowing a download which I was earnestly 😢waiting for. Goa india

[@zombiedestiny8923]

Bro this dosent make sense: why dose it have ro have a cause?

[@APIAlchemist]

Because to people like him, the only way things make sense is by thinking of them from a human scale and perspective.

[@generyan2332]

Rational and irrational comes from the mind except in your case Cliffe, where rational missed the boat. That's if I'm being rational about this.

[@bthigpen13]

His point is that you and I have rational minds because we originated from a rational being... rather than merely random atoms leading to trustworthy rational orderly thinking.

[@generyan2332]

@@bthigpen13 He hasn't proven his god with rational thinking to create rational thinkers.

[@BB-rh2ml]

@@bthigpen13Where did the original rational mind come from?

[@bms77]

Cliffe! You are NOT convincing at all dude! It’s very easy for me to see at least that all yer doing is reaching and making stuff up to justify your assertions even when they fail big time! It’s like you can’t be wrong so you make stuff up

[@humbertojimenez3475]

Paul saw blinding light and heard voices on the road to Damascus, seven years after Jesus died and ascended into heaven. Seven years ! Will you follow Jesus who said I did not come to change the old laws? Or are you a follower of Paul who showed up seven years later?

[@ronaldorivera4674]

You really believe that God couldn't preserve his word and that he would let it be corrupted by false deceivers? Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles Acts 9: 15-16, if you really believe the scriptures contradict and aren't harmonious, then you haven't read the Bible in context and are misapplying texts.

[@humbertojimenez3475]

@@ronaldorivera4674 it doesn’t matter what I believe. I’m just tired of people claiming Paul actually & physically met Jesus. I wish people would be honest and say that Paul had a blinding light and words. Be honest. Don’t mislead people. Basic theology and ethics in any system.

[@humbertojimenez3475]

@@ronaldorivera4674 just be honest and careful with your words. That’s all I ask and I don’t think that’s really too much to ask.

[@ronaldorivera4674]

@@humbertojimenez3475 What authority exactly do you possess that anyone should take your word that Paul didn't meet Jesus?, scriptures clearly teach that he did.

[@ronaldorivera4674]

@@humbertojimenez3475 When you encapsulate verses and build your theology around it to fit your narrative and don't take scriptures as a whole, you end up in error. Keep on reading in the very same chapter, what does 9:27 say But Barnabas took him( Paul ) and brought him ( Paul) to the apostles, and declared unto them how he ( Paul) had " SEEN" the Lord in the way, and that he (Paul) had spoken to him ( the Lord). Don't play with scriptures bud, if you want to debate on this, you should actually read it, not cherry pick verses you like.