Climbing How To: Multi pitch bolted anchor belay set ups

[@FlatOutFE]

I think a video of how you belay the leader from a multi-pitch bolted anchor would be good.

[@realrocksrhyming8910]

I attempted my first multipitch today, it was unsuccessful but it was a good learning moment... i need to do more homework. our anchors were messy and I was inefficient. in many aspects of multi pitching, its a completely different game than single pitch.. im humbled by today

[@jimcross730]

Love it. Every day a school day. Thanks for showing the various options.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you liked it!

[@MichaelKudlatheInterested]

​@@JBMountainSkills Do you have anything on multipitch communication? It seems to me like yelling is unreliable, tugging on the rope is potentially dangerous. Radios can be cumbersome, but they work well. What's your approach?

[@Lambda25]

Really unsure about the last one, both people being secured just through a single loop of dyneema with an overhand in it... I understand its top roping your second so force should be low but that's a lot of trust in a bit of dyneema. You might be redundant to the two bolts in the rock but otherwise that's a single point of failure. What happens if the bottom bolt fails and you and your second shock load that dyneema sling?

[@bker5376]

He wouldn't shockload the system if that bottom bolt failed, i think in practise the clove hitch on the top bolts meant to be tight, which would mitigate any shockloading.

[@logiconabstractions6596]

Dyneema sling' MBS is ~20kN. Even a fall factor 2 could not generate those forces on the sling; even it if did, pelvic fractures and internal bleeding would be your bigger worry. So the sling isn't going to break. To use this technic, you must be 100% confident in the anchor points. If you are not, then yes a "proper" anchor is appropriate.

[@_noirja]

yeah but put an overhand in it and it halfs the strength of the sling

[@srowhani]

@@logiconabstractions6596 yes and no, that’s the assumption for a factory new sling

[@logiconabstractions6596]

@@srowhani If your sling's strength has degraded, that would be because of 2 options: 1 - exposure to some chemical that degraded it 2 - visible cuts/wear that weakened it I suppose a 3rd option would be leaving it out on the rocks on some projects for a full season (UV rays do degrade dyneema over long periods of exposure, such as a full season out). But leaving aside fairly dumb use of dyneema (e.g. weathering it out on a project), that leaves 2 options. In both cases, the sling should be retired and not be on a harness anyways. If one climbs with slings that aren't at MBS, the issue isn't the knot in it, the issue is climbing with gear that should be retired.

[@jamesshilling1332]

great video, sliding x with limiter knots...might as well make it a quad, then you can utilise both strands of the sling for something.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Yeah I think sliding x style is probably a bit superseded by the advent of the quad style stuff.

[@Alyogyne1]

Your method between ca. 9:00 - 10:00 could be improved by using a bowline-on-a-bight, to create two loops at the master point (increases redundancy with respect to the sling). As well, you could tie a much smaller loop at the master point, to reduce the amount of upwards movement that is possible for the belayer when belaying the leader on the next pitch during a big lead fall (which may make the difference between the belayer hitting something above the stance or not). The second point is also a reason why the sliding X with limiter knots, or belaying off the harness, is not a great idea when a belay point snug off a super solid anchor can be used. I see now - listening to the end - that you mention this method. Not sure why you wouldn't use that, given that you prepare the anchor sling on the ground - it takes no more time on the climb. Check out what they do in the Eastern Alps: kzbin.info/www/bejne/en7Cq2OwmLd8maM Thanks for the great videos - please keep them coming. cheers

[@JBMountainSkills]

The reason for showing the overhand method is simply because the setup will be new to a lot of people watching and I prefer to teach new things in as simple a way as possible. I do prefer the bowline method, but not that many people regularly use a bowline, so for me it is a next step method, maybe it leaves me another video to do!

[@Alyogyne1]

@@JBMountainSkills Yeah, I get that. I just don't want to stop there myself :-) I must admit that it (simplicity) is probably the reason why I still tie in with a rethreaded figure 8 to my harness, instead of a round turn bowline, which apparently doesn't lock up so much after a fall - just too hard for everyone else to check me when everyone else is used to the figure 8. Funny about the bowline, though. I knew that knot at least 5 or 6 years before ever encountering a figure 8 - depends on which activities you do before coming across rockcraft, I suppose.

[@grahammckinna1070]

Love it. I've been ravenously devouring and digesting the content here for a little while now. Plenty of little tweaks and tips have been much appreciated, friend. One bit jumps out at me here around the 9 minute mark. Rather than clipping that extra bit of sling up and out of the way, it looks like you've got enough to bring that leg of the clove back to the first contact point and throw another overhand in, giving you a second strand in your master point. Sort of a "we have the material in the system already so why not use it" type deal, right? May not always have enough material left on that second leg though, depending on how far apart the bolts are. Cheers! Again, absolutely loving the content here. Thanks for all you do. About to go buy me a shirt.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you've been enjoying them! I think with that setup you already have a master point so I'd probs just stick with that, but there's always alternatives! Hope you like the t shirt if you ordered one :)

[@JoeKunsch]

not a huge fan of the last one with the single strand of sling for the master point. I am sure it is fine if it is 5.easy and the follower is likely to not fall. options! love that saying now. great video!

[@drqazlop]

Ya, where-I'm-from, that'd be a no-no

[@mountbeckworth1]

Just a query, if I might. Your sling seems to be dyneema, and therefore has no stretch. On a multi-pitch, if the leader fell, you would be lifted up, shockloading the system. Or if they fell before placing any gear, the force would be downward. Is that ok?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Good question. If there’s no gear v close it would be pretty normal to clip a part of the belay as a runner to mitigate this. If what you say did happen, whilst it’s not ideal, there is stretch in the system from the rope, slight belay device slippage, knots tightening. The slings being high percentage Dyneema wouldn’t worry me.

[@1M0dem1]

dynamic properties don't change much from using nylon slings or using dyneema slings or even using the climbing rope for the anchor. The way you create dynamic properties into an anchor is using the rope to get off the belay and clipping gear. The more rope you have out on the pitch, the less of a fall factor you take. You could build your anchor with the steel cable as long as you're using a dynamic climbing rope to climb off that steel anchor.

[@jeremyballard7461]

On the last example could you clip your guide plate into the loop in the sling above the overhand and below the clove hitch to give a little space?

[@JBMountainSkills]

I guess you could. It feels like in practice it might slip around a bit and also create a wide angle pull though.

[@brunoortiz1049]

How do you clove in to the anchor if there is no belay ledge? Or just hang on to the anchor and clove one handed?

[@chriswiles8617]

Would you use smaller screwgates especially the ones attached to the bolts ?

[@simonlpoisson]

You better use a dynamic sling for the anchor bro ! Dynamic !

[@JBMountainSkills]

No need. There's loads of nice stretchy rope between the climber and anchor 👊

[@simonlpoisson]

@@JBMountainSkills You're not taking into account a bolt that could fail. Your sling will brake in that case

[@JBMountainSkills]

@@simonlpoisson that’s why you have the redundancy and will equalise the sling if concerned. A bolt failing will not cause enough shock to break a sling in these set ups, and again where’s the weight coming from? The end of the ropes, you or your mate, the ropes dynamic, so it isn’t static only material in the safety chain.

[@simonlpoisson]

Feel free, I think that's really important to have your anchor made with dynamic rope, it's safer. The old school does it with static sling, yeah that's true but it's less safe. I see no reason to do it less safe

[@stephenevans2518]

@@simonlpoisson I'm not aware of any dynamic climbing slings, or do you mean use an old bit of rope? Nylon slings are still far from "dynamic"

[@xcvelo]

another nice video JB, I like the keep it simple approach. Do you have any concerns about knotting and therefore halving the strength of the sling? Both the belayer and following climber are on the same sling.

[@JBMountainSkills]

Glad you liked it! I don't have any concerns, 11kn is still strong, but.... I think on my next trip that involves multi pitching with bolted belays I might embrace the Quad...

[@bradyrussin6292]

What would you recommend for a belay device when top belaying between the BD atc guide and petzl reverso? Is one significantly better or is it more of a preference?

[@JBMountainSkills]

There's really not much difference. It's a tiny thing but I prefer the orientation of the ATC in guide mode, but that really is a minor thing and purely personal.

[@xsuperbmentality]

When you belay for the second pitch do you keep the device on the anchor or move it back to your belay loop?

[@JBMountainSkills]

Normally it would go on my tie in loop.

[@atticus900]

@@JBMountainSkills Interesting. Any particular reason why you wouldn't continue to keep the device on the anchor? I've seen people switch their belay device from anchor to belay loop when switching from belaying from above, to belaying from below - but I haven't really understood why its done that way.

[@TknJn]

Alpine guide mode has some potentially dire consequences if deployed for lead belay. well worth researching the for why of why not!

[@The.dr.awsome]

Could you explain the clip it and flip it that gives you redundancy on the sliding x at 5.56

[@JBMountainSkills]

Clip and flip is nothing to do with redundancy. A sliding x is redundant if a bolt fails. Where it falls down is the extension if a bolt fails.

[@mikecallaghan7943]

Great videos when this covid is over will certainly be booking a course. 👍👍👍

[@JBMountainSkills]

Give us a shout anytime :)

[@mikecallaghan7943]

@@JBMountainSkills will do when all this is over👍👍👍

[@JBMountainSkills]

Want to buy me a coffee or the boy a dog treat?! www.buymeacoffee.com/jbmountain

[@Mr96danwright]

when your second reaches you and gets ready to lead the next pitch, do you take the belay off guide mode and clip it to your rope loop and lead belay as usual?

[@Alyogyne1]

Personally I use a Munter hitch (& carabiner) directly off the master point so that (1) I don't need to change the belay if swapping leads, and (2) I keep the potential upwards movement to a minimum if the leader takes a big fall. It's quicker than changing the belay plate from one position to another. When dealing with solid bolts, the forces that can be applied to the anchor (which is the usual reason given for belaying off the harness) are not going to be a problem (for the anchor).

[@gary_c2376]

@@Alyogyne1 hello, maybe I'm not imagining this correctly but how would you get the dead rope into the breaking position whilst belaying a leader on a munter?

[@BatuYangHidup]

@@Alyogyne1 but bolts can be deceiving. Could be deteriating on the stem of the bolt that you can't see. Why not just swap from guide mode to belaying off your rope lope? So that a big leader fall is safer. Just a thought. Also munter hitch, kinks the rope. So if you don't want that, belaying from the rope lope with a belay device is a better option.

[@Alyogyne1]

@@gary_c2376 Pull hard on the Munter... Perhaps you get slightly less friction if the brake strand is not parallel to the climber's strand, but there is no magic "parallel" brake position, unlike the "down" position with an ATC (with the "S" shape of the rope through is is quite important). Test have been done by - I think - the DAV to examine the forces on the anchor taking a lead fall. The belayer is hanging from the anchors, the Munter is attached a bit above them (i.e., directly on the anchor). The brake strand therefore can't be parallel to the lead strand, but I'll have to look over the video again to check. They have a cartoon (see link below) with this illustrated (no specific mention of brake strand orientation, but it seems clear that parallel is not achievable). www.alpenverein.de/bergsport/sicherheit/standplatz-fixpunkt-oder-koerpersicherung_aid_32096.html Edit: I found the link to some actual tests using dropped dummies conducted by a French alpine school. They show people holding lead falls without problems using a Munter hitch (named the Italian hitch in that video), brake strand down beside the body (rather than parallel to the load strand): kzbin.info/www/bejne/m6K9gqF5fNFlaqM

[@Alyogyne1]

@@BatuYangHidup I was assuming (as I think JB did in the video) that there was no doubt about the bolts in this example. If there are doubts, I'd be adding whatever I could to the anchor until I was satisfied with it, but that's not always possible. If I was still in doubt about the anchor I probably would belay off the harness. The rope twisting, in my experience, isn't a big deal (talking single rope, though - doubles may be different). I'd rather avoid getting pulled into, e.g., a ledge above the stance, than worry about rope twist. If there is a danger of a light belayer being pulled into a ledge above (edit: I mean an overhang above the belay stance), the belayer could get hurt and even lose control of the belay. In that scenario I would consider it safer to belay from the anchor *especially* if there is a large fall possible. But each situation is unique and requires judgement - I'm not trying to sell one best method here, just giving an opinion. Climb safe everyone.