GR86 RTV Engine Failures Pt.2: Q&A session with a former Subaru Master Tech

2022 GR86 RTV Engine Failures Q&A session with a former Subaru Master Tech
#gr86 #enginefailure #brz
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The content of this video is available for informational and educational purposes only. It is not intended to be a substitute for the professional advice of a mechanic who has personally inspected your vehicle, nor does it create a relationship of any kind between the CM Autohaus and you. Every situation may be different, and CM Autohaus does not make any warranties, whether express or implied, as to the accuracy, fitness, or applicability of the information or automotive parts portrayed in this video to any project and makes no guarantee of results. CM Autohaus and any sponsors of this video will not be liable for any damages related to personal injury, property damage or loss of any kind that may result from the use or reliance on this video and/or any automotive parts represented in this video. You are using the information and automotive parts portrayed in this video solely at your own risk.

[@jasonm.1370]

I really wanted the gr86. After watching your videos there’s no way in hell I’m getting a loan to buy junk. Thank you so much for your information.

[@CMAutohaus]

I think the bigger problem is how Toyota USA is poorly handling the issue. I have personal conversations with GR86 owners who now want to sell their car and have open cases with Toyota USA, and they have been told by reps that yeah "you should sell your car if you feel that way"

[@Bones12x2]

Sounds like a bit if an overreaction. Its certainly not ideal but also not some crazy issue to overcome.

[@jasonm.1370]

@@Bones12x2 major engine failure is real. Oil starvation is no joke. From what I understand rtv is used throughout the engine. People are just seeing it when they drop the pan. I will wait till they fix this issue before making a purchase, if they take too long the z makes killer power with a tune. I don’t think dropping a pan to clean a filter multiple times to save a new engine is for me. At least not on my car.

[@Bones12x2]

@@jasonm.1370 The Z is nearly twice the price for the premium version (which is the only one to get if you actually want to drive the car hard). So not a valid reference. But I get your point. For some folks it is a bit worrying... but this is a pretty easy oil pan to drop。 So for someone lioe myself that is going to track the car and has plenty of experience working on Subarus. Dropping the pan a few times until the problem goes away isnt a huge deal. I have a car in order but won't get it until spring time. Maybe I'll be lucky and they will resolve the issue in my engine. Either way, ill drive it for a week or so, drop the pan, then do it again after a couple thousand miles and go from there.

[@69fcortina]

@@jasonm.1370 BMW, Mercedes, and other manufacturers use RTV extensively too. A very fine bead on well machined surfaces. This is a problem of application, not the technology itself. Done properly, the engines are much less likely to leak- gaskets and seals readily degrade over time. Subaru just needs to change what they are doing. The real problem is oil starvation, something that may be intrinsic to boxer engines unless carefully designed.

[@240TechGuy]

Unfortunately in our local auto-x group, we are now seeing the new 2022 WRX's getting major RTV in the oil pickup tube (they were doing oil pan baffles). Looks like whatever the new process Subaru is doing, it is not working well.

[@CMAutohaus]

Sincerely appreciate the feedback. Really unfortunate to hear as Subaru has such as loyal customer base, yet you guys are getting let down.

[@Justforfun-ek7et]

The WRX FA24 has the same issue with excessive RTV plugging up the oil pick up tube. I haven’t heard of any engine failures, yet.

[@Techcensorshipbot]

If this is such a worrisome issue, I'm not sure why they wouldn't just post a recall and get it done. that RTV replacement will cost them a lot less than replacing engines you'd think anyways.

[@716Flat4]

This is a big concern still unfortunately. Still an issue on the 2023s unfortunately. Now Subaru is only about 90 days away from having 2024s on the lot without any official acknowledgement of the issue or any solution offerings. As a person who is getting ready to buy a new car and wanted a WRX, this is a deal breaker. It is almost certain that this is a far more common issue than we are aware of yet as the failure rate and discovery rate pre-failure combined seem to imply an issue that isnt isolated to something like a silicone supply refill...eg, the RTV issue only occurring for the first few or last few meters of silicone bead in a given supply container. The fact that it seems to be common makes modding an all or nothing proposal...what a damn shame as this VB seems to be the most capable engine in a wrx in many years if ever. IDK what to do...i see Subaru already putting some 2024s out on their other models...i am like 90 days out from needing to buy...Subaru is gonna lose my business over this and I hate it.

[@alexrain1188]

The only good thing about this GR86 mess is that we at least know the issue and it is not just random breakdowns. Thank you for your honest answers.

[@CMAutohaus]

Glad you found this video useful! Im not longer a dealer tech so no need to hold my tongue!

[@TheJacobshapiro]

My guess is the “fix” will come in the form of Subaru quietly improving its automated manufacturing process at the engine factory so fewer big gobs of RTV will be sticking out and dissolving/breaking into the oil. It’s a shame they’ve handled it so poorly for the people who have already bought the cars, though. I wanted one of these but now it looks like I’ll be waiting a year or two.

[@aygwm]

It needs a class action lawsuit

[@ericcoombs]

Great video Ezekiel! Love you videos! I’m a new Toyota enthusiast. I bought a 2020 Toyota 86 with a M/T. Thank you for all the cool content! You should share the cars you have on a video!

[@CMAutohaus]

Thanks for the kind words an support. I'll have to find a way to get all 3 of my car in one spot

[@camryds]

Great educational video!

[@CMAutohaus]

Thanks for the support as always J!

[@seekerofthetruths]

GM has been doing the same thing with more RTV seals. I was told by an engineer that it is definitely a cost cutting move but it is still a better seal than you got on old small blocks back in the day necause the massive thickness of a gasket was largely intended to make up for the crappy manufacturing tolerances. Modern CNC machinery is orders of magnitude more precise so only a thin layer of sealant is needed to prevent the fluids from seeping out. In theory a perfectly machined engine would need no sealants or gaskets unless the metals being bolted together had too different of a thermal expansion rate.

[@davidcassidy2731]

My 2013 GT86 spun a bearing at 64,000 miles no valve spring recall carried out I was told by the Subaru specialist who rebuilt the engine that there was a lot of silicone throughout the engine.

[@crowntug]

I have a friend with a frs that had a similar issue at a little over 100,000 miles. Seems like it was also an issue for those engines, at least during the 2013-2014 years, but at a much lesser extent.

[@ericcoombs]

I play it safe.. 5k or 5 months.. Motul 0-20 full synthetic.. and new oil filter every change…. I love my 86

[@CMAutohaus]

You should be fine with the 2020. Most all the bugs got fixed by that year.

[@freytheviking]

Awesome vid! Would love to see a Part III as we get more data. Also, super curious about why the turbos don't fail @ the same rate!

[@CMAutohaus]

Glad you found this video useful. Yes I am super curious about the FA24DIT and surprised no one has chimed in about if it has the same RTV issues or not.

[@The_D0C70R]

Beautiful Eight-Six in the background, looks mint. Seeing it makes me want to go deliver tofu

[@DarthVader-1701]

That Panda Trueno is beautiful.

[@markshrivastava9634]

Had a 2015 FR-S. 8k miles, RTV plugged up the oil control valve. 11k miles, same thing, Toyota tore the engine apart and found more RTV. The 2015+ certainly had issues.

[@rappervipervevo7397]

Thanks for the great video Ezekiel, love the content! Maybe you could bring on Dexter as a guest and ask him what he thinks of the 3rd gen 86?

[@CMAutohaus]

Ahahaha! You are obviously a fan!

[@gamermicha3l]

That sky net ending lol! Ty!

[@CMAutohaus]

Lol glad you liked it!

[@icecactus11]

Should’ve teamed up with Mazda or Mitsubishi with the 4b11t

[@billshoe22191]

Such great information. Thank you for answering these questions. Learned a lot

[@CMAutohaus]

Glad you found this useful!

[@duffman2686]

Love your channel homie, thanks for all the info 🙏

[@CMAutohaus]

Hey! Sincerely appreciate your support!

[@crowntug]

Thanks a lot for all the useful knowledge!

[@CMAutohaus]

Glad you gained from this video and thank you for the kind words!

[@Ripperx121]

Thank you for this video. I am not super worried but I am going to pull the pan after 10k.

[@CMAutohaus]

Glad you found this useful. Yes, absolutely recommend pulling the pan to at least check.

[@andyjonas3698]

I have besides my GR86 a BMW K75 motorcycle with 100 000 miles. When took the oil pan down this winter to give it a clean, to my suprise it was full with.... you guessed it RTV! The engine on the bike works flawfless, good compression and no oil consumption. After that I stopped listen to alarmist and armchair mechanics about the danger of RTV in the pan and just enjoy my car. How many engines have been destroyed due to RTV clogging the pickup on the GR? Answer me that please...

[@20mmRainFPV]

Question 1: if you had a mechanic drop the oil pan and replace the RTV, would this fix the issue? If not, is there a way to fix this issue without having to keep dropping the oil pan to check? Question 2: If you were in the market to buy a Gen2 BRZ/GR86, would this stop you from buying the car? Great video bud!

[@CMAutohaus]

1. There is NOT a way to fix this issue without having to keep dropping the oil pan to check. We need to see long term if RTV will continue to accumulate in the oil pick up after an initial cleaning. 2. This issue would NOT stop me from buying the car. I think the car drives and feels greats. It just had the excessive RTV quirk, so if I personally owned one, I drop the oil pan every 10k miles.

[@20mmRainFPV]

@@CMAutohaus thanks bud I appreciate the response and help!

[@AwsomeAdogFilms]

Great work informing about the RTV issues and questions. I just have one for you, what is going to be a good maintaince routine for a daily driven GR86/BRZ?

[@CMAutohaus]

Check your oil and coolant levels between oil changes - full at all times. You can never change oil too early or too often. Oil filter inspections and black stone oil analysis seem to be most effective. Despite being a modern car I tell customers you need to treat Subaru's like an "old school" car as they have their own quirks and required maintance

[@gamermicha3l]

Wow thank you

[@UninformedProduction]

this was awesome ty for the answers

[@CMAutohaus]

Glad you found this useful! Look forward to a pt3!

[@Bones12x2]

Has anyone like IAG etc talked about making an aftermarket pan that uses a rubber seal instead of RTV? I have an 07 sti with their oil pan and that has a groove that a seal sits in and doesnt need RTV or a flat gasket? Would be nice to use that as a replacment. I gjess there would still be other rtv issues in otber areas but at least that eliminates 1 and makes it easier to pull on and off to repeatedly check over time.

[@CMAutohaus]

Agreed. A company needs to step up and make some sort of gasket for easy service.

[@vmfan96]

Great Video on the topic. I am a real fan of Subaru because of their Rally heritage. But the direction they are heading with the, latest design choice of the WRX and this RTV issue has me losing hope for Subaru.

[@CMAutohaus]

As their market share got bigger I think they neglected their core audiences in favor of sales volume. Sucks, but thats kind of how capitalism works.

[@ngwilliam2534]

Gotta give you a subscribe after seeing how kind you are to reply all the questions that your viewers have. Thanks a lot and keep up the good work!! 🫡

[@CMAutohaus]

Sincerely appreciate the support! Just doing my best for the community.

[@dougrodriguez4977]

22 wrx engine also suffers from the excessive goop, I’ve seen the videos on KZbin about it.

[@Aether52]

The new WRX has the same issue though idk how big the issue is on the WRX. Someone's brand new engine already blew up due to RTV clogging the pickup and spun a bearing. Only heard of one incident so far but they're still very new so idk if more issues will pop up after some time has passed.

[@stephenschenider4007]

Do you work at a dealer?

[@jonobar327]

I just did my first oil service for my Subaru BRZ 2022 at my local Subaru dealer(Al Khoory: UAE, Dubai) There I mentioned the problem of silicone excess that's been appearing lately for some Toyota GR86 2022 and the service advisor told me the following: "We are aware of silicone issue but no need for worry since production of Toyota GR86 2022 and Subaru BRZ 2022 are different, and that's why we haven't seen the silicone issue with BRZ 2022 so far" You thoughts?

[@CMAutohaus]

Thanks for sharing your experience. We need a real source to verify if the engines are made in different plants instead of what people are "hearing"

[@gamermicha3l]

Those gauges in the end at the track do you have a how to video about your set up looks really good thank you!

[@CMAutohaus]

The gauge holder I made myself. I have oil temp (sensor in oil pan), oil pressure (sensor in sandwich plate), and water temp (sensor in upper rad hose)

[@joesisler3411]

I asked my toyota dealer about the rtv issues today, and they didn't know anything about it. I'm suprised the dealers arnt at least notified of the issue going on.

[@CMAutohaus]

Not a surprise. Everytime there would be a new TSB or tech tip, it would just "show up" no real announcement or fanfare

[@biffbastion301]

I think they are trained to say this. I was aware of the oil dilution of cylinder walls that Honda was having in cold weather for 2017-2018 MY as we have a 2018 CR-V. I asked the SA about this and he acted like he had never heard of it before. It was all in the news and everything way before I even asked him. You are telling me no one asked him about that? Get real.

[@invertedv12powerhouse77]

from what i understand the 1 quart every 1300 miles is for the FB engine. the guys i know with the FA20 dont really burn that much oil in double the distance if at all. my 2018 brz at 60 000 km loses practically nothing in 6000 or even 8000km ( i only reach 8000km once on an oil change lol)

[@jameslovett8697]

All this RTV stuff is causing me to overlook buying one of these. Local specialist stores near me quoting $660 to clean it up - which is probably fine if its a one time thing but this seems to be a necessary routine maintenance item........

[@CMAutohaus]

You're better off with a BRZ. People here locally are having to hire lawyers to have their GR86 engine failure warreny cases resolved. Subaru has historically been far more leinant with warrenty claims.

[@anthonygreco8285]

I’ve been following these videos to hopefully hear the good news that it has been resolved for the 2023 Model Year with “insert production date here”. Or, Toyota and Subaru creating a recall, technical service bulletin at a minimum. I’m curious how different the Subaru BRZ and the GR86 are in a amateur/professional racing environment. Part of me wants to order direct from Subaru because the ordering experience and the Subaru technicians working on a Subaru. But, there is something about the GR86 besides the bumper that intrigues me. Maybe because I’ve found a shade of blue I actually like? Beats me.

[@CMAutohaus]

I personally prefer the look of the GR86. But the BRZ has a few nice differences like alum front knuckles and warranty claims seem to be far easier than with Toyota

[@anthonygreco8285]

@@CMAutohaus, I would love to have a complete comparison. There’s more to the story that either brand isn’t making it known to the public.

[@MrSpamfriedrice]

Hey, Ezekiel! I'm out in the east bay and might hit you up down the road to clear out that RTV! I just got my 2023 BRZ. Is there a certain amount of time you'd wait before clearing that stuff out? Also, if I get a short shifter or mods like that do you do installs? Thanks! Oh.. and subbed!

[@CMAutohaus]

Hey JP please send business inquiries to [e-mail]. We tell customers to wait at least 2000 miles (Or a few track days) before removing the oil pan to clean the oil strainer.

[@shahrukhbakar3248]

Ezekiel, since you used to work for Subaru, do you have any contacts for field service reps to push this fiasco of an issue up the ranks? Do you know how far up the ranks this issue has gone? Does Subaru/Toyota corporate know about this issue?

[@CMAutohaus]

Subaru doesnt really car about their technicians in my experience. My contacts who were so nice to me as tech, dont answer my emails now.

[@Icejones00]

Nice work

[@ernestoperez8876]

I have a 2022 Subaru wrx I can just imagine how much rtv I have at 9k miles.

[@xcastel6234]

If only they would drop the b58 or even a b48 into the GR86

[@Talasas]

10:21 Something to consider here is that Kaizen is possibly what got this issue here in the first place. Being that there is a myriad of benefits on the manufacturing side for using rtv over gaskets you can see why you would use it but it also lacks a whole lifetime view of the engine. Improving in one area can cause big problems in other reducing the overall net benefit (as with your airbag example). Kaizen is a sword that must be wielded carefully and with consideration.

[@CMAutohaus]

Great insight. I'll have to add this to part 3.

[@crowntug]

I'm not so sure about that, Toyota is the most well known for applying Kaizen. And yet they haven't gone to applying RTV onto major engine components. And that's despite them manufacturing many more engines, and therefore being able to save a lot more from switching to RTV.

[@PoorMichael6]

Great stuff! Curious what you think about having the dealership drop the pan vs yourself? If silicon is in there would that generally be covered by warranty?

[@bluelacyseo8964]

Sounds reasonable but they are not going to warranty an engine unless it fails.

[@CMAutohaus]

The dealer wont do anything unless there is a "problem" like CEL, engine noise, or low oil pressure - so not a warrenty issue. Thats why we've been proactively dropping pans and cleaning pick ups here.

[@EvilJ069]

My first car, the low oil light was worthless, by the time it came on I had less than a quart in it

[@OxiSG]

How do you recommend finding a mechanic that will know how to do this properly and won’t lie about completing the work? New to the Houston area and not mechanically inclined myself.

[@CMAutohaus]

Join your local community and ask around for a shop recommendation. Word of mouth seems to be the strongest for these type of things

[@OxiSG]

@@CMAutohaus thank you very much! Your videos are informing thousands!!

[@CMAutohaus]

@@OxiSG Glad to be of use!

[@hossak88]

Isn't it about time for an aftermarket gasket set?

[@CMAutohaus]

Calling Mahle, FelPro, ect...

[@gamermicha3l]

Oooooo they sell it 👀😱

[@CMAutohaus]

@@gamermicha3l Not yet, but I know a company developing one soon...

[@Torresmeza9]

Good thing the next 86 will be all Toyota. They’ve already made the framework for the car

[@arcelivez]

Why Subaru - correcting the repsponse in the video: No, it was the other way around actually, Toyota had the initiative and reached out to Subaru because they bought stake there. Toyota also have a history of doing this with other even less related manufacturers (same with Supra - BMW...). Why Subaru? Because they do sports cars and had pretty much everything for that (except they did strictly AWD and no RWD cars) and they produce boxer engines which was needed for this cars' low center of gravity and sportivity and basically making what it is... Also because they do great quality cars and Toyota have stake in it and are like the only manufacturer to manufacture solely in Japan (or at least that used to be the case earlier and still is for this particular model). Toyota did develop the car together, but it's still more of a Subaru and that's actually a good thing for many reasons. Indeed - for Subaru the idea of doing an RWD car was strange, Toyota was the one to convince them to go that way.

[@shaggyman8564]

PUREPOWER has a lifetime OF with a stainless steel element which is easy to change and clean. Also it has less resistance to high oil pressure meaning more oil is actually being filtered Any comments Ty for the great video And boy you so well spoken and knowledgeable for a TECH. SUB AND LIKE

[@CMAutohaus]

Thank you for the kind words and the tip on the oil filter. 2yrs of hosting multiple podcast really helped with my speaking - I am still a nervous introvert IRL.

[@RobustArid379]

What are ownership supposed to do if you own one? Bring it in a specialist? And inspect oil pan RTV? What do you do initially?

[@CMAutohaus]

My personal recommendation: Bring it to a specialist, perform the borescope and oil filter inspection. If after 3 oil changes, RTV keeps accumulating in the oil filter, remove the oil pan and clean the strainer.

[@RobustArid379]

@@CMAutohaus when you say specialist, does it means a Toyota dealership or a local mechanic?

[@CMAutohaus]

@@RobustArid379 I'd say an independent shop with Subaru engine experience.

[@RobustArid379]

@@CMAutohaus I would bring it to your shop if i knew where in California…edited. I’ll bring it to your shop. Any discount coupon to bring my car in?

[@NisSubieTechA]

I think people use too much rtv so it won't cure right and drops in the pan. I remember pulling a rear main seal after 2 weeks and the rtv was still wet in the center of the beads. I would use anaerobic types but they're expensive

[@CMAutohaus]

Robots programmed by people or AI apply the RTV. Not people.

[@NisSubieTechA]

@@CMAutohaus yeah that too, garbage in and garbage out

[@Bones12x2]

Is it safe to assume that if you occasionally check and clean the pickup of rtv pieces that over time the problem will go away as there is a limit to how much excessive rtv can exist?

[@CMAutohaus]

Too soon to tell if there is limit to how much excessive rtv can exist.

[@grub321]

How about a new oil pan with a access panel?

[@CMAutohaus]

Great idea. But even with the pan off, it is tough as hell to do a good job cleaning the oil pick up screen - you would need some VERY long picks or something

[@brianb7844]

Have a dumb question but isn't the 2.4 used in many other Subaru products like the Ascent, is the pickup design different? Why are the Ascent engines not having issues?

[@CMAutohaus]

Same answer I have on the FA24 in the WRX

[@MotionRRP]

Do you think a hand cut cork gasket could be used on the OEM oil pan for ease of periodic checks?

[@CMAutohaus]

Thats not a bad idea!

[@kyleSTI]

Is the RTV issue specifically focused on the brz/gr86? I have a 21 STI. Do I need to look into this with my EJ25? I’m 15,500 miles in on this car.

[@CMAutohaus]

EJ25 is a belt driven engine and will NOT have this issue. The chain driven FA engines are all at risk

[@rwirby]

What kind of wheels are those in the background on the white car?

[@CMAutohaus]

Watanabe

[@RobustArid379]

I drive Camaro so I don’t have a rtv issue

[@CMAutohaus]

Merica' wins again.

[@pugdealer82]

So is this a good enough reason not to buy a gr86 now?

[@CMAutohaus]

I dont think so. I still think it is a great enthusiast car with a good fit and finish. Its just going to have this RTV quirk, like some BMW M engines needing rod bearings every 60k or something.

[@pirihern9329]

Has subaru acknowledged the rtv issues ????

[@CMAutohaus]

Doesnt seem like it yet. My local Subaru dealer hasnt heard issues so far, but they also dont get many Gen 2 cars

[@samriijack]

I have a 2020 wrx with the older FA20DIT and have not had any problems with the engine starving of oil. It only really has 8k miles which isn't a lot but in all its been very reliable, it does make me nervous to know about this on the 86 and wonder if in fact my oil pickup has any silicone on it?

[@kdavid123186]

So subie literally ignored head gasket problem for decades, and you asking them to fix this issue is too hopeful.

[@pirihern9329]

Where does the oil go ????

[@EnhancedTrashBin]

Through your bank account

[@CMAutohaus]

Stays in the pan if it cannot get sucked into the engine

[@eric9249]

Many manufacturers use RTV to seal their engines, never an issue, the problem is Subaru sucks.

[@CMAutohaus]

Preach brother Eric!

[@RatedKwong1]

is subaru the only company usin silicon ? why is this issue ONLY on the BRZ/86? are other cars/companies not using this formula as well? im so curious as to how it only happened on the BRZ

[@redux5153]

They added too much (from what I understand)

[@RatedKwong1]

@@redux5153 yea but its a setting for the machine right? so only the brz got a change in settings? its weird to me

[@WatchingYoutubeVid]

@@RatedKwong1 gr86s are built in the subaru factory too

[@CMAutohaus]

If I had to take an educated guess, Euro cars have been using timing chains for so long now, they probably have the silicone thing figured out. Subaru has just hit 10yrs with a chain driven engine.

[@terraformingcats8175]

Have you seen any RTV sealant issues on the new 22+ WRX with the FA24F engine? I have a new WRX on order and this issue concerns me.

[@stephenschenider4007]

Damn that new WRX looks like smashed assholes. You like the look of it? Or are you just buying for other reasons?

[@rikosway]

Story time

[@pirihern9329]

Factory silicone no bueno

[@CMAutohaus]

More correctly it is the factory's incorrect/over application of silicone. Subaru 3 bond is actually great stuff.

[@ttinnovations3310]

money shift !!!

[@cyborgjoe1000]

E46 is better and cheaper and faster big facts even DK said it’s a good car 😂

[@devonswindell9735]

Subaru engines just suck.

[@CMAutohaus]

Winner winner chicken dinner!

[@EvilJ069]

How can I make the dealer take the pan off and clean it for my 1000 mile oil change? Why did they even include a back seat when not even my small children can fit in it?

[@lastname-Nm]

Old Subaru: gaskets don’t gasket properly New Subaru: 🤤🫱🧴DURRR DUHH GLUE SQUIRT SQUIRT FIXED