Is Your BRZ or GR86 a Ticking Time Bomb? ft. TheTopher and Jubbal & Cars - ZCT #35

BRZ/GR86 OWNERS ASSEMBLE! Let's discuss the risk of blowing your FA24 engine, whether you should be worried, and what you can do about it.
In this episode of Zygrene Car Talk, we're joined by fellow Gen 2 owners and track day enthusiasts, ‪@jubbalandcars‬ and ‪@TheTopher‬
Follow me on IG: / zygrene
Email me if you'd like me to review your car: [e-mail]

[@CMAutohaus]

Thank you for the shout out Zygrene. As a friend and small business, I sincerely appreciate it! Speaking and working on cars from a HUGE amount of Gen2 owners, here's what I've gathered regarding the Oil starvation/ RTV leading to engine failures issue: It's a combination factors. High volume oil pump, smaller sump capacity (1qt less than FA20), no oil baffling (sustained high G turns), RTV blocking the pick up, internal oil system design (MotoIQ did an article on it where the main/rod bearings are non primary for the oil system, good reason we see so many bearing failures/rod knock) One other thing to factor in is how Toyota vs Subaru deal with warranty claims. Subaru by far is way more forgiving - during my time as a Subaru dealer tech, I've seen how easily Subaru will cave in to "good will" a warranty claim or buy back a car that doesnt really have an issue. Here are some personal examples Buy back: 60,000 miles Impreza due to multiple warranty issues (normal Subaru quirks) Buy back: Subaru Legacy the owner states the sunlight sensor would not turn his headlights on "fast enough" Good will: WRX 15,000 miles clutch failure. Clutch job parts and labor got good willed. Keep in mind this car had bald tires, little to no brake pads, and a body shop receipt that said the car had been in an accident with frame damage.

[@ruturaj47]

I am glad I have the Subaru version after reading this.

[@NDEEZMiata]

Wasn’t my experience with my first gen BRZ. They barely wanted to do anything with blatant issues….

[@shawnconary6810]

CMAutohaus does great work. Super consistent reporting

[@CMAutohaus]

@@shawnconary6810 Thanks James Bond. Sincerely appreciate it. As a small business making the RTV videos is really taxing, but I know it helps the community, especially the data collection

[@sshah2545]

Hate to say it, but in Canada dealers are entirely unforgiving. If they can't charge you for it, they're not interested in helping you. $165 CAD / $120 USD for an OBD2 scan to pull codes, before quoting you for the maintainence itself

[@TheTopher]

This was fun! Thanks for having me on, gents. Also, just to clarify on Liqui Moly - I put a bottle of MoS2 in the BRZ after every oil change - it's a nice cheap safety net if oil pressure drops or there's a couple seconds of starvation at high-g.

[@Datsun510zen]

Hey Topher, I saw this and thought you guys might be interested. It's a pretty good scientific analysis of the oiling issues of the BRZ. kzbin.info/www/bejne/anvOZoqKjNSkqpY

[@zonk6125]

Thanks for coming on as a brand new owner I learned and enjoyed it!

[@BeanyB0b]

Thanks for getting together and talking about this. Having bought my ZD8 mostly to have fun and to learn to drive fast, it's been pretty stressful to watch this saga unfold. As you all said, there are risks associated with tracking any car, but the frequency of catastrophic failures in the media has been concerning for me. With the internet being the way that it is, people love to present speculations about the root cause(s) as fact (RTV, oil pan baffling, oil temps, driver error, etc.) with very limited information - but ultimately even if there is an unusual number of failures relatively to other commonly tracked cars, owners collectively cannot make an accurate and sound conclusion based on the existing data points. So it was nice to hear some more level-headed people talk about the situation. Something that I'm very curious about but I think none of you brought up is the spec racing series for this car run by Toyota. The GR86 Cup cars have full aero, slicks, race suspension, etc. My understanding is the engine/oiling system is lightly modified, including an oil cooler and different oil pan, but I don't have many details. If you guys could somehow figure out what they've changed there, it would be super helpful, since that info isn't public as far as I know. I assume they wouldn't risk having multiple cars blowing up every race, so I'd love to know how the manufacturer thinks it's best to modify the car for racing. Unless they all just get frequent engine replacements, in which case idk... I'll probably just sell the car. lol

[@hhaste]

Search GR86 prototype baffle testing and you'll get a couple really informative videos on what is happening and why. It's only on big, right hand turns with high G forces like on a road track. An aftermarket baffle/oil pan/pick-up tube will fix the issue, once one is finally figured out and produced. There really isn't any worry about street driving or even auto-x with fast turns, mostly just the road tracks. No clue why Toyota/Subaru haven't implemented this fix on their new cars, they know it's an issue. It's something that has happened to all boxer engine cars, up until a certain point.. then they fixed it. Not sure why they didn't use the fixed pans/baffle on this car..

[@aaromon43]

company: advertises sports car driving at 10/10s on a track customer: it broke, help? company: surprised pikachu face

[@johnsong763]

Thank you for making this video! Not everyone has the money to pay for a new engine on a new car

[@stevemartegani]

For reference to Subaru, I had a 2018 STI Type-RA (I've had a BRZ in the past too) that had 4th gear go out on its first and only track day with 4k miles. Warranty was denied, mostly due to the AOS and 91 octane tune I had. But they did actually help with paying for almost all of the claim ("Good Will") when I had the dealer call SOA for assistance.

[@MarkJCarruthers]

19:25 valid argument. On the flip side the BRZ has a "Track" button making a suggestion to enthusiasts of track days.

[@GR_FIRERARIZZ]

This is a great video. Sad to hear so many cases of blown tracked engines makes me worried about mine. Im doing my 7th and 8th track days at Sonoma this weekend. I have oil cooler, RS4 tires and I am tuned on ethanol with a few bolt ons. So far the car has 22K miles and i do changes every 4k miles and i use motul 5w30.

[@hhaste]

Search GR86 prototype baffle testing and you'll get a couple really informative videos on the subject. It shows exactly when the oil pressure drops. Eventually, an aftermarket baffle/oil pan will be made that completely fixes the issue but until then, I personally wouldn't touch a track with it.

[@just.a.simplejoe]

@zygrene - owned my 21 ND2 and after numerous events, canyon carving (touge driving) and 2 dozen road trips all over the US... I've had almost no issues. Most things I've run into are minor hiccups at best. I'm modded almost to the max for the platform but still NA no force induction yet. It's saddened me to see the issues on the current gen 86/brz. As a long time viewer of your channel I hope you guys find ways to get passed the current issues for tracked cars. Currently at 34k miles on my ND2 btw and I drive the car very spirited.

[@didierleurquin3693]

Thanks for this one, guys. I think you hit it on the nail. It's not that much an RTV issue, as it is a lubrication issue when tracking these cars. Slightly grippier tyres, like the PS4S, on stock suspension, or coilovers with stock tyres should be OK. But coilovers and grippy tyres will generate too much G-force in the corners, starving the oil system. And this: G-forces are shown on the dashboard in certain modes, meaning that the dealer can see how much lateral G's owner pulled on the track. So use common sense, and be careful !

[@ruturaj47]

What if I run PS4S and milder coilovers like ohlins Road and track? Asking because that's what I was planning to get, all stock right now.

[@didierleurquin3693]

@@ruturaj47 , Hi Bro. I ran Ohlins and Michelin PSS on an MX-5, a few years back. The lateral G limit difference with stock was massive, so I wouldn't risk it on a BRZ/GR86. Also, the stock suspension on the twins is really good, so I'd spend my dollars on tyres, exhaust and brakes ...

[@ruturaj47]

@@didierleurquin3693 thanks bro, I was thinking about coilovers because of few reasons, I wanted 15mm drop, 3° camber and less understeer than BRZ is set for and slightly more comfort on daily. Do you think just the PS4S without coilovers might be too much?

[@didierleurquin3693]

@@ruturaj47 , actualy my GT86 had a KW V3, 15mm lower, but still OEM tyres. That could be an option, or otherwise, and much cheaper, OEM suspension and PS4S in 225/40/18. Would not go for coilovers, plus sticky tyres, too much G-forces for the engine...

[@ruturaj47]

@@didierleurquin3693 thanks, I have been thinking about PS4S in 225/45-17, wasn't so serious about getting ohlins, now would just drop the idea entirely.

[@DaytonPruet]

I owned a Honda CRZ EX 6MT and it was pretty fun to drive. The curb weight on them are around 2650-2740 lbs depending on trim and trans.

[@Tofuisyummy]

To confirm, once a repair order is opened at a dealer and closed, it is then part of the dealer network and every dealer will be able to see it. 35:30

[@dadhats]

weird to see the Topher's face after only watching his pov videos lol

[@burningreaper333]

I was thinking the same lol

[@charliebrowned]

I think it's worth keeping an eye on the Toyota GR86 Cup cars that add a bunch of supporting mods to an otherwise stock (internally at least) FA24 engine. From the specs various sources reference I did not see a mention of any conversion to a dry sump oiling system, just an oil cooler. An article written by NBC Sports talking about the racing series and the cars specifically points this out: "The cars mostly are customized to help manage the heat - the stock versions aren’t designed to handle the oil that sloshes around in the high-speed left- and right-hand turns on the road and street courses of the GR Cup schedule". Hopefully from the cup cars both Subaru and Toyota can collect some R&D data to improve future iterations of the street car. I think overall this hurts Toyota's reputation more given they are the brand people think of for reliable cars and I am not surprised about the rumors that they would move to an all Toyota platform with the 3cyl turbo hybrid setup.

[@charliebrowned]

Super Taikyu is another racing series to keep an eye on where the Twins are prevalent in the ST-4 class and both Subaru and Toyota running cars in the ST-Q class to experiment with synthetic fuels. Toyota's entry is notably different using a Toyota 1.4L 3 cyl turbo rather than Subaru's FA24. Not sure what setup is allowed in terms of engine and supporting mods (like oiling upgrades) for this series. Also: the comment that went popular here by a person claiming to be affiliated with one of the teams in the GR Cup North America series describing engine failures by their own team and other teams is no where to be found anymore 🤨

[@ioannisioannou7518]

Informative. Y’all have increased my stress level (again) for sure. I’m a bit with Topher on the merits, even if closer to Fenton’s driving style. PS4’s on stock suspension is good fun, whereas a cup 2 on more aggressive spring rate with couple degrees of negative camber up front prob asking for it with wet sump. More proof how this chassis punches well above its weight. Still too early and anecdotal but definitely smoke there as more cars have been sold and higher mileages recorded (anyone been updating that spreadsheet which was floating around documenting all the FA24 failures?). For now, 5w30 every 3k (keep doing the blackstone analysis and measure silicone as well) oil cooler and fingers crossed. I love the car so much already. Such a sucker punch issue but not gonna freak as well. Keep these videos coming guys!

[@ElectricusTus]

This is why I plan on sticking with Primacies for my first gen. Thank you for the podcast! Love your videos dude!

[@sunnyvalentino]

Here's the list of NEW track and auto x friendly cars under 50k and their negatives. All are solid picks (just calling out the mild compromises) 1. Miata. Best choice but better for those under 6ft or short in torso. 2. Camaro 1LE package. Terrible visibility and high consumables 3. Golf R. Little soft and artificial, detached feeling 4. Elantra N. Wheel hop is terrible, esp in wet or uphill 5. Corolla GR. Needs some aftermarket diff cooling for longer track sessions. No sliding 6. CTR - Difficult to source. FWD for those who want throttle drive If you want to spend more (under 100k) C8 Z51 is perfect out of the box, Supra is nearly perfect but needs some stiffer springs, and Cayman is also solid (if not a bit clinical for my tastes). CT4V BW apparently good but dunno much about.

[@iheartgs400]

Better off looking into K Series Honda manuals like 8th/9th Gen Si, RSX, TSX or even the Fit.

[@876yuugt]

C8 is way too heavy. And you forgot the Evora. It doesn't have cheap mcpherson struts all around like a Cayman. Supra is at around 40K nm/degree of torsional rigidity.

[@sunnyvalentino]

@xyz777 agreed, clarified Supra (suspension/springs). Evora is absolutely amazing but not new, Emira over 100k. Disagree on C8, it's track ready and does long long sessions with no issues

[@Zygrene]

Dude. You summarized all those cars perfectly.

[@sunnyvalentino]

@Zygrene haha. Just a middle aged techie and car guy, modding, enjoying and blowing money on too many cars up here in Seattle since 2005. If I had invested the money in the markets I'd be with more 💰 but less smiles

[@swifaz]

So, it sounds like the best preventative measure is to kswap. 😂

[@iheartgs400]

Buy a blown 86/brz 1gen and swap it for K24

[@ryanmattson1735]

I'm not shocked, Subaru engines aren't known for being super reliable.

[@CMAutohaus]

Its what makes a Subaru...a Subaru.

[@CMAutohaus]

Also hey....."they lived...."

[@hhaste]

They can be, if you take proper care of them.. but most of the young kids that came over from the Honda scene don't do that. They think they can beat on it, like they do their Honda's and it'll be fine but that's not the case. You have to pay to play with Subaru's. You have to do the interval maintenance's at specific mileage, you have to keep an eye on oil pressure, you have to check your oil every time you fill up.. You *HAVE* to have dyno tunes done for every little modification you do that affects air or fuel, like intakes or downpipe etc.. there's preventative maintenance that needs to be done and when you don't do it, they go to shit. On top of that, the engine design and stock oiling/baffle system is not a good combination. They can starve, if you take high G turns, as all of the oil will go to one side of the engine. It can be fixed with aftermarket parts but most people don't know that. They take their stock oil system Subaru on a track and it blows up because of the starvation and they just go "$%^@$ POS Subaru" and blame the car, when in reality, it's the owner.

[@DOOMLORDHOKAGE]

​@@hhaste Everything you just mentioned is why they aren't reliable in comparison to other brands

[@thaydathroeun8678]

​@@hhaste what aftermarket parts fix oil starvation during high g?

[@kgthegreatone943]

I think 0w20 is to thin of a oil for tracking your car

[@knz5893]

0w20 is absly water for performance use

[@supergt86]

Yup, I learned that the hard way in Gen 1. Don't let the epa choose the oil for you, especially for tracking. Interesting why the US owners' manual only recommends 0w20, but the Japans owners' manual, you can use 0w20, 0w30, 5w30, and 5w40.

[@ruturaj47]

I am running 5w30 but wonder if Subaru would deny warranty because of it.

[@pascutia]

I absolutely hate 0W-20 oil. If there’s any sort of aggressive driving happening, you gotta switch it out. The fuel economy benefits of 0W-20 over 5W-30 are extremely negligible.

[@CMAutohaus]

Track/canyon customers of ours are all running 5w30

[@Veyronp87]

this is such a huge issue for this platform. the main appeal of the Toyobaru twins is that they're track friendly with their balance, lightweight, and cheap consumables.

[@pv4083]

Subaru makes fun street car engines. Not necessarily track motors. The other manufacturer to use the boxer engine in Motorsports application is Porsche and you know how much R&D went into it and how much they cost.

[@grwlngbxr27STi]

I put a Jackson oil cooler, Koyo rad, and mildly upgraded brake pads to start tracking my 2023. It's been fun and has no problem staying cool, but it did puff on restart after the first session at a track with a long carousel. So did the other 2 BRZs in my paddock that are running wider 200TW tires and the same cooling mods. We're looking at AOS and catch can options, and maybe an Accusump.

[@pstoppani]

That's very interesting/revealing! Seems like the AOS could be the best option for these cars. Ingesting oil through the intake can easily destroy an engine.

[@silligilli25]

Great podcast felt like I was a fly on the wall to a great car convo and was able to follow. Just remember all these problems are solved by just getting a s2000 😂

[@gardenclaw82]

Fairly new to Gr86 ownership and i'm more fast road/ rare track use driver. More data is now available and it seems shallow oil pan vs boxer engine and where the oil pick up is located are more of a factor than the RTV. Causing big oil pressure drops in high G right hand turns. For an easy low cost low level of protection improvements in preventing oil pressure drop in high G corners were seen by overfilling by about half a litre of oil.

[@j.3854]

One thing I find amazing is how most folks dont realize how much potential these cars have on track with suspension/tire mods. Watching your and other on track clips shows *insane* grip. And confidence. The risk of engine issues is worth it imo. What other car does what this car does at this price point? None. It is in a class all its own.

[@milesfathi]

Miata, Elantra N, 4 poper muscle cars, many excellent used choices.

[@j.3854]

@@milesfathi convertible - fwd - all one thousand pounds more - maybe a cayman (then you factor in reliability and maintenance). like i said, in a class all its own. Miata maybe nears it.

[@bananaoligarchy8754]

You asked what other cars do performance this well at the price - you can't just dismiss answers to your question offhand because they do it differently (heavier and more powerful, fwd, etc).

[@newwavetheo]

@@j.3854 Miata is right there with the BRZ/GR86 in outright speed and can beat it on handling alone. There is no substitute for less weight, period. Rigidity isn't the greatest because it's an open car compared to a fixed roof car (if you really want to find something to complain about), but the Miata is actually pretty darn ridged as far as convertibles go. Go drive a Mustang/Camaro convertible and you'll see how bad those are.

[@shinn43]

@@newwavetheo stock for stock BRZ vs nd2 miata is pretty close, but when suspension mods are accounted for the Miata's wishbone front vs BRZ's mcpherson strut makes the biggest difference.

[@Tomas-x6f]

Liqui Moly MoS2 Anti-Friction Engine Treatment (300ml Can) - Liqui Moly LM2009 Is what they are referring to, FYI.

[@DC5Brandon]

I vouch for those Australian brakes. I used those with Dot4 brake fluid, Hawk HP+ pads, steel braided lines and running 215 tires on my RSX at Road Atlanta with a brutal braking zone on the back straight. No overheating or fade after 20 min sessions on a hot day. Interesting though, I upgraded to 235 width with lighter wheels years later at the same track and had smoking rotors and pads after coming off the track. I think the extra tire mass or unsprung weight maybe was the culprit.

[@izzy9022]

I have DC5S and got a set of RPF1 in 17x7 +45 (stock wheel size) and they weigh 14.8lb and the Advan AD09R tires weigh 22lb for a 36lb per corner combo.. made a gigantic difference over the OEM 17x7 @ 22lb each. Most people go wider for their tires and wheels without fully utilizing the previous size @ the stickiest tires they can buy.

[@hatteras33]

Only 5 mins in, but talking about G's, this is why I put in the tomei baffle plate. It seems to help, but not eliminate pressure drops.

[@coldvaper]

Subaru motors scare me, I know people with foresters that use them to cart round kids and just regular stuff and they still loose their engine with lower miles sub 100k. I won't even consider buying a gr86 or BRZ because of they have subaru engines.

[@Bristecom]

Subaru has made good rally race engines for decades. And this is not just a typical Subaru engine; Toyota also had total input on the design to try and insure reliability. That's why it has the D4-S injection system for example. It's not a bad engine, it's just not a race car engine. Sadly in life you often get what you pay for, as these guys alluded to, so if you really want a reliable race/track car, you'll either need to do careful extensive mods or get a Porsche or something.

[@PocketDrummer]

It was mentioned that a baffled oil pan doesn't help the issue, but I really don't see how oil starvation could be a key issue and a baffled oil pan doesn't help. At this point, I think they're basically required on a boxer engine that's going to the track. Tomei makes an Oil Pan Baffle Plate. Assuming you don't have the RTV issue, I think this design has the highest chance of keeping oil where it belongs. I think if someone made an oil pan / baffle combo that increased the oil capacity that would be event better.

[@braun987]

I know someone who blew 3 engines. The last one was stock, no aftermarket updates. Sticky tires, instructor driver. Toyota refused to cover any of the engines.

[@holelee7834]

There's a video of a guy who had catastrophic oil starvation issues with his gr86 and he was just putzing around the track in 4th gear with brakes.

[@rogueninja1685]

Finally a comment about that guy. He was keeping the car in the 5 to 7k range for no reason at all. Literally just letting it run at high RPM through entire laps at low speeds. His oil temps were pushing 260 and he kept redlining the car. How much abuse did this car have that we didn't see? Plus he was tracking it with the AC on, lol. Toyota STILL bought him a new engine. No way I would drive my car like this. It's one thing to use revs to pull a car and it's quite another to run it up there. I guess I'm just irritated that this one video caused so many misconceptions about why it blew up

[@Datsun510zen]

For me, it makes no sense to expect a manufacturer to warranty your race car. That said, what's the point of having this capability if you're not able to use it. If Toyota is misleading the public about the BRZ or GR86's track abilities as a sales point, it seems to me they have a responsibility to recall it and fix the problem. If you mod it to be more competitive, that's on you, and I believe it should void the manufacturer's warranty. Blowing your engine is a bitter pill to swallow, so always proceed with caution. When building a race purpose track car the warranty is your wallet. Either way, it pays to make damned sure your car can handle what you're throwing at it. The old track mechanic's rule of thumb is every $1.00 spent on active go fast upgrades should have $3.00 spent on passive upgrades to handle it.

[@grantkahale8933]

Another question is does the 2022+ WRX suffer from the same issue being the same engine? As I've seen heaps of them being tracked and no issues so far that I know of?

[@brzo.]

uh ive seen 2016+ wrxs blow up randomly even while babied and driven normally, but nothing for the 22+.

[@hoywatsdat]

Very informative episode 👍🏻. If you’re gonna do more episodes over video call I suggest a external mic. You and topher’s audio was muddy compared to jubbal

[@kgthegreatone943]

I hope its not a time bomb its such a cool car

[@hhaste]

It's not, if you do the preventative maintenance. Have the RTV sealant checked and make sure that's not going to cause any issues. IF that's ok, start modifying the stock oiling system (if you plan on taking hard turns, on a track etc.) Get it tuned on a dyno, to get a better tune on it. Check the oil every time you fill up at the gas station, do the big maintenance's that you're supposed to at specific mileage, like 30k, 60k etc. and get gauges to monitor important info, like oil pressure, temps etc. and you'll be fine.

[@backroadblast6603]

@@hhasteto supplement that, go ahead and get a baffled oil pan and an oil cooler.

[@brzo.]

@@backroadblast6603 should drop oil pan and check for rtv or have a dealer/mechanic do it? i dont have one yet but hopefully soon

[@backroadblast6603]

@@brzo. I’m going to have the dealer do it when mine gets here. Some dealers aren’t charging for it. Certainly doesn’t hurt to ask.

[@NathanE808]

I want an 86 so bad, but really dont want the boxer engine...might wait to see what the 2025 rumours bring.

[@jumboshirmp]

I love boxer engines personally, but would prefer my Toyota to come with a Toyota engine. KillerB Motorsports is currently in extensive R&D for a unique oil pan baffle that does indeed remedies the oil starvation issues. They even got some customers that run track days doing some field testing now. Once the appropriate design has made it to market than no more issues. Just a cult classic car living out its years without infamy.

[@telemaster]

I've been interested in upgrading to a Gen2 car, but without being able to fit a UEL (I have no doubt they'd deny warranty over that CEL) I'm thinking about other options. I just don't enjoy the sound of the engine with the standard manifold.

[@Naah732]

You guys are definitely not the ones to worry about that. I think personal warranty is secured in case of engine problems knowing that you have a big enough audience

[@stevemartegani]

Also, Porsche has proven there is no inherent design issues with flat engine designs (but they have had their issues over the years, and cost more than a BRZ to fix in most cases lol). Subaru's engines have never been designed for the track however, and are designed for regular use. They don't include Air-Oil seperator systems like Porsche engines do, nor do they have extremely well baffled oil pans, over-designed oiling systems, or dry sump oiling systems from the factory. If you want to see what CAN be done to make these engines work for racing uses, just look at all of the rally teams and what they've had to do with the engines the last 30+ years to make them work well for racing purposes.

[@QuintonLeister]

What do you consider proof? I think Porsche has proven if you spend enough money you can engineer around issues. The engine placement in the rear is just another example. That doesn't negate the inherent risk relative to other engine designs. On a lateral corner, oil doesn't drain from the head to the pan like a V engine. A long sweeping corner on track, or even highway off ramp, can cause the pickup to suck air. That's a topic they talk about in this video. The reason modern Porsche flat engines don't have the same issue is due to a hybrid wet/dry sump or full dry sump. I love my Subaru, but all cars have pros and cons. Like you said, these are street cars and perform well in that space. They're not race cars. Also, the EJ257 has an air oil separator from the factory, but people often upgrade to compensate for track driving. Not sure about the FA engines.

[@stevemartegani]

@@QuintonLeister Inline and V engines have compromised design issues to that have to be compensated for, like inherent imbalance and gravity pulling oil down away from the head too. I've seen plenty of EA888's blow smoke during corners, Honda engines grenade on the track, and plenty of V engines including a new ZR1 die during track use. There is no "perfect" ICE engine for racing at any price. The EJ257 just has a standard PCV system same as any EJ engine, nothing at all like what Porsche includes.

[@QuintonLeister]

@@stevemartegani oh, for sure. Every design comes with pros and cons. I mention the factory AOS on the EJ because while it’s nothing like Porsche, it does have one. Obviously it leaves much to be desired. Especially, when increasing boost. The PCV system is something I monitor closely on my STi.

[@kiritowow2736]

I know 4 brz 86 onwers on track from last year Oct，3 of them already blow up lol

[@Clockwork0nions]

There is a reason why oil pans and pickups are popular mods on other cars that have Boxer engines lol. If you're tracking any car with one of them those are the first mods you should really have done.

[@fretstain]

unrelated to the RTV issue but it came up in this chat so I figured I'd bring it up. If you guys can ever find someone with an inline 4 swapped brz/gr86 that you can review, I'd love to officially once and for all hear what kind of difference the change in center of gravity makes in driving dynamics.

[@SmoOthOper8tors]

They definitely knew and sold it anyways. Very much riot worthy.

[@SGTPJ]

I love my BRZ i hope they fix these issues because i love the engine sound, but at the rate the failures are going I have settled for a Kswap or LS swap after this FA24 says good bye

[@turkicsayajin2274]

any updates ? is the fa24 still there ?

[@dylanjames2213]

Great video, guys. I'm curious, did any of the example engine failures specify what oil weight they were running?

[@colt2206]

Until this issue is fixed I won’t buy one. I want to get one later but unless this problem is fixed I will not buy one and might go with something different if it is not fixed by the time I am ready. I bought a new Forester Wilderness recently and planned on adding a BRZ in a year when Forester was paid off. Love my Forester and I had not heard of this issue at all until I started watching BRX GR 86 videos and researching them

[@chrisx5127]

Man, but I don't want an automatic Outback. If it was manual, different story. So frustrating. Miata is too small and dangerous for Minnesota, GR86 has RTV issues, and Outback is automatic. So frustrating!

[@comic0guy]

I'd love to have you do an oil analysis just to see where the engine health is at.

[@GT-RTData9]

Typical Subaru. I don’t know how they’ve been making boxers since the 1950s and still haven’t managed to get things straight. It’s just problem after problem with them.

[@bobbymobby4169]

Yup, and it's not like they make good power or sound nice either. Waste of a good chassis having subaru engines in there.

[@knz5893]

@@bobbymobby4169I tried it at autox this fa24 actually make pretty good power. But yeah I don’t know why subaru won’t just put some effort into making the engine as perfect as the chassis.

[@FATmenDRIVEtrucks]

@@bobbymobby4169 I want one with a vvti 1UZ

[@dsubversion]

A little better than rotary engines from my exp...but we still need to treat boxers designs like old cars

[@404nobrakes]

@@you_can_fuck_your_own_ass_69 no it's not. The FA24 has a gigantic 94mm bore size. The "2.4L" masks the fact that the FA24 achieves this with a big bore and short stroke. Other ~2.5L engines will usually be square or even undersquare, which makes them much more efficient. I'm sick and tired of people parroting that tidbit as if making power is difficult in the modern era.

[@peanutbutterpadre1519]

I was under the impression that all Porsches use a drysump in their boxer engines because they know about the inherent shortcomings of the boxer engine in sporting applications

[@Slu54]

They used to but since 996 save for I think the turbos gt2 gt3 and gt4rs they have "integrated dry sump" which is really just wet sump but with baffling and multiple pickups

[@peanutbutterpadre1519]

Interesting, either way that is significantly more than you get from Subaru.

[@christianherrero8053]

My worry is them saying you put other than specified oil weight in the engine and void your warranty for that

[@Zygrene]

I'm worried about this too. It's frustrating because running the OEM oil will drastically increase risk of engine failure.

[@404nobrakes]

@@Zygrene same with oil cooler, cleaning the RTV, a baffle, accusump, AOS etc. Or even heavier fluid in the trans (the factory 75W is too thin). You get penalized for trying to take care of your car

[@serpent86]

I could be wrong (I’ll check the manual) but I could have sworn it also says 5w-30 was fine. Or maybe it said 5w-20 I forget. 😅I’ll triple check it!

[@d.nakamura9579]

Hey Fenton, enjoying your videos as always. I’d be very interested in what you might have to say on ZCT about PPF. To do or not to do? Reasons why? I can’t imagine you haven’t considered this issue, especially since you track your cars. Even for daily drivers - is it worth the cost?

[@rsxtypejai209]

I have 2018 Brz ts. Daily driven. First owner. 77k miles. Done all my maintenance at the dealer. Just recently. I went to take it in for an oil change and they notice metal shaving in the motor oil. Is that common???

[@rjwagz]

I wonder how much of a correlation there is between these engines blowing up on the track and the owners not properly wearing in the engine 🧐

[@didierleurquin3693]

Plus one, on this very good question ...

[@gaivoron]

It's an engineering failure. I wouldn't buy one knowing this. Let's wait until Subaru officially addresses these issues.

[@Lord_Sneetus]

What are the odds of mine blowing if I just do spirited rural drives and occasional donuts?

[@elyssesmagcaling]

Wish I wasn’t so deep with a aero track 22+ gr86. I’m gonna sell mine for something else

[@dsubversion]

I'd buy that for a dolla!

[@alexmcrae7274]

This was a really insightful video, thanks guys! I’m in Australia and recently put in an order for a new BRZ set to arrive early 2024. Knowing these issues existed, even well before ordering mine, obviously didn’t stop me from getting one. The preventative practices that you discussed are exactly what I will be doing with my car. Infrequent track use and minimal modifications other than maybe an exhaust, etc. are on my radar. Might drop the oil pan to check the oil pickup for RTV after a couple months of driving as a check-up too. As well as using a higher quality oil like a 5W30 and regularly changing it, along with an aftermarket oil cooler, are there any other practices that you reckon will assist in further preventing any issues? And would these two practices mentioned above have a chance at voiding the warranty? I’ve seen some debate over what you can and can’t do in this space in order to avoid warranty issues. Seems you have to tip-toe a little…

[@harrybuhse8622]

It's pretty general advice but from my research it's even more important on Subarus that you don't lug the engine i.e., make sure you're not flat footing it at 2000rpm or less. You'll feel it if the engine is happy or not. Also let it get up to operating temps before driving and even moreso driving it hard. Not only will it cause less wear on the engine but it will drive better too (transmission fluid takes a fair while to get up to temperatures where it starts shifting smoothly). Outside of oil starvation and rod bearings, connecting rods are a point of failure mainly when boosted. Regardless, the conrods are designed to operate best for high rpm not low rpm, hence why lugging is a bad idea. Yes you will lose a little bit of fuel economy but it's a small price to pay imo. A lot of guys recommend change of oil after break in period 1000-2000kms to remove metals and contaminants and there's good evidence to support that, but it won't be a part of scheduled maintenance. I personally did this. Depending on where you live in Aus it might not be a good idea to go 5w-30. 0w-20 does a better job protecting the engine during cold starts and cold climates. I find it takes longer for a boxer to reach operating temps compared to an inline 4, so it's not inconsequential. Adding an oil cooler can definitely affect warranty claims. It might not void your claim if the worst occurs, but it will definitely make the situation more complicated. Also dropping the oil pan is the same deal, could complicate warranty claims especially if not performed by the dealer. Personally, I feel a bit more apprehensive about track use in Australia since a lot of the track marketing was for the US. I wouldn't be surprised at all if you had to escalate a warranty claim beyond the dealership if tracking was involved. The biggest thing is don't moneyshift. They have datalogs to see how high the car has been revved and at what mileage (hence why it's good to respect the break-in period) and I believe Subaru can even see if you've taken it to a track. All that is to say: Try to play by their rules if you want them to honor their warranty.

[@alexmcrae7274]

@@harrybuhse8622 Thanks for your reply mate. I’ve definitely heard a lot about lugging the engine and is something that definitely comes down to the driver. Definitely agree that it’s worth the slightly worse fuel economy in the long run. And obviously any person who cares about the well-being of their car should let it get up to temp before any serious driving. I think it’s important to be respectful of the break-in period as you mentioned, especially on these cars, and will take your advice on changing the oil around 1-2k kms. Can you explain why 0W-20 does a better job at protecting the engine in cold temps as opposed to 5W-30? I live in South East Queensland. Have you had any issues with your BRZ and what is your advice on maintenance? As much as I think it’s a good idea to drop the oil pan periodically, it does complicate things as you say especially if not performed by a dealer. Then again, I’m not confident that my dealership would do this for me if I asked unfortunately. It is what it is I suppose. Thanks again for the advice. What’s your personal experience been like in owning a BRZ in Aus? Would love to hear more.

[@harrybuhse8622]

@@alexmcrae7274 I reckon don't sweat the oil pan unless you are really into tracking it and run sticky tyres since any RTV blockage should be negligible overall. It's when you complicate it with high sustained Gs there might be some moments for wear to occur. Very cool car. It's my first rear wheel drive car and as a young male it's certainly a liability 😂 I get the hype behind oversteer that's for sure. I have to remind myself to be careful though since I don't have the experience and driving habits needed to catch the car with traction control and stability off properly. Even if the roads are slightly greasy the car is ready to play and it's easy to underestimate just how quickly it will spin. It's a good dose of horrifying and humbling and I'm just grateful I haven't gotten involved in an accident before learning to respect the car. Unfortunately I don't have any roads that would be good to practice on at the moment, and there's a fair bit of preparation involved for a track day. If you're getting a BRZ S model the tyres can be pretty loud over bad roads and the sound system leaves a bit to be desired. I've gotten used to it now but I'm getting a 2-way speaker upgrade (aprox. $600 including labour) to fix that up. Fuel economy isn't horrendous but it's also not amazing since you're filling up with 95 at the minimum. I use 98 and have gotten about 7.9L/100km over 16,000kms with a decent amount of highway. Roughly $80 a tank at these fuel prices. I bought an axleback exhaust to get a little more noise over stock and I'm happy with it. I don't want to be a cop magnet so I got an exhaust that meets Japanese regulations which is a little quieter than Australian regulations. Any catback/axleback exhaust will give you pops and bangs on downshifts in specific circumstances just a heads up haha. I'm sure it's not a huge deal but even though gen 1 brz/86 exhausts bolt up to new cars the diameters are slightly narrower than gen 2 exhaust setups so keep that in mind when looking to buy. Other than that, the doors are long so be careful where you park. You have a button to fold your mirrors in which can be pretty useful. Don't worry about people saying the car is slow because this isn't the US. You'll be faster than a lot of cars on the road especially Qld. It's got great torque between 3000-4000rpm. Track mode can tell you your oil and coolant temps. There's also a tyre pressure monitoring screen that's made me aware of two tyre punctures already which is pretty bad luck. I did get ppf and ceramic coating which is awesome but it's not for everybody. Depends how bad rock chips bother you. I just touched up the paint from rock chips on my last car but I didn't want to do that this time around. The biggest thing that bothers me is how easy it is to scratch the steering wheel. I've already scratched it 3 times getting in and out. It's easy to do and I've never scratched the wheel on any other car I've been in. Idk what the solution is there. Careful with your keys and your nails even if they're short. It can and will happen. As for 0w-20 vs 5w-30 it's best to look that information up since others will be able to explain it far better than me. Essentially they have different optimal operating temperatures, where 0w-20 is some of the best available for keeping high viscosity during low temperatures which will be the case every time you do a cold start. The faster that oil is able to lubricate the engine the better and that's what it does well. It even does a pretty remarkable job in heat too considering, but if you're out doing track days often in the heat, 5w-30 would likely be a better choice since it won't thin out as much at high temperatures if you're reaching them. I've reached about 105⁰C on the street driving spiritedly, where 130⁰C is considered too hot. So personally, I couldn't justify 5w-30 with the sort of driving I do, nor an oil cooler since air to oil coolers can make your oil take longer to get up to temps as well. Sorry that was really long hope it was useful :)

[@alexmcrae7274]

@@harrybuhse8622 Wow mate! Thanks for that reply. Absolute gold. Really appreciate it. Loads of great info there which I will definitely remember and research more. Cheers! :)

[@anthonyalbano1932]

What advice could you give to one that’s getting their new ‘23 BRZ after waiting 13 months since ordering and turned in their 2020 WRX because everyone I met at the track was on their rebuilt WRX motor. Purpose of the BRZ was to be a roughly 10 year track car and build it further into a track car over time. This news gives me the jitters

[@Blank00]

Since last year, it has been rumored that Toyota is already working on a next gen 86. I wonder if this is why

[@Yul-Uhlu]

It's my understanding that toyota has a difficult time managing the ongoing "subaru engine" related issues. They are developing a toyota built gr86 which is scheduled to release in 2024/25 and have the 3 cylinder that's currently in the GR Corolla with some sort of intergrated hybrid setup.

[@chrisx5127]

@@Yul-Uhlu Will it still be manual?

[@mrgizmo7975]

I would argue autox is as straining if not more straining on car than track. Throwing it side to side is more violent, you sometimes have to bounce off the rev limiter depending on course and layout. Not as much sustained high revs/heat, but def more thermal stress from going all out for a min then full cool down.

[@jubbalandcars]

Interesting counterpoint

[@rjhick1]

Good job on bringing light to this issue 👍🏽 I wish someone did this with the GT350. The engines seem to spontaneously blow up for no reason and its a hot topic. I feel like using the 5W-20 Oil might be a bad idea though because that would give Toyota or Subaru an easier way to deny your claim since its not the "recommended oil"

[@VinRZ]

Recommended oil is 0w20/5w30. 5w20 falls right between. There should be anything to worry about, unless you live in an extreme cold winter location.

[@VQSeries]

Agreed, would've loved to see something similar regarding GT350 voodoo Motors... Although I heard oil starvation was the causes - the culprit being the vibration of high revs loosening oil filter off over time. Regardless, I'd think a low-oil indicator would've warned drivers...

[@dhaug]

Average driver here, contemplating a '24 BRZ. Not intending on taking it to track, should I still worry about this being a ticking time bomb even as a daily driver?

[@user-sk4wf3ve6z]

No need to worry,just keep your maintenance up to date with regular oil checks and always allow your engine to warm up before hard driving.i have an FRS with 180k trouble free miles on it.its people tracking their cars or not doing proper maintenance that is the main causes of engine blow ups in Subaru engines

[@squareenixffost]

Been on a few buttonwillow open track days and their awesome!

[@adamleininger1387]

Sooooo I'm never taking my 86 to the track, ever. Got it. 👍

[@Blballerboy]

Not like I’m going to the dealer to buy one today 😅

[@thaydathroeun8678]

I heard the new civic type r has cooling issues

[@CDecker33]

The one video I've seen with a pressure telemetry overlay painted a more complex picture than sustained high-G turns. It was apparently right-hand turns. Any chance you could share the telemetry?

[@ericmichel3857]

So either don't push it to hard or GSPEED dry sump for FR-S or BRZ (it does retail for $4,955.75). Seems like it is meant to be a fun car, but not a full on race car, if you want to turn it into one, that always costs money.

[@chrisx5127]

But Miata is full on race car from the factory. Why is that? Mazda superior to Toyota and Subaru?

[@ericmichel3857]

@@chrisx5127 Not necessarily, these cars are not full on race cars, and they were never meant to be. All sports cars (including the MX5 require modification if you want to do serious track work. The MX5 and the previous generation BRZ/GR86 do not seem to have this oil starvation issue, but they probably do only to a lesser degree. Because full on race cars (and even high performance street cars) use dry sump oil systems for a reason. If you want to try and run with the big dogs it will require more serious modification. If you use these cars as intended, a fun sporty street car, or track it more or less stock, it seems to be fine. From what I can gather it is only when you start upgrading the suspension and tires that this oil starvation becomes an issue. That is true of most cars, if not oil starvation it is hundred other things. Apparently something about this new engine design makes it particularly susceptible to this issue and requires modification if you want to drastically improve performance. That is racing in a nutshell, you either lower your expectations, or be prepared to spend lots of money. In some cases you can upgrade the oil pan to one with larger capacity and baffles to reduce slosh. I did not see where that was mentioned as an option, perhaps there is a reason why that is not a viable with this car? I was just curious and was able to quickly find that there is a solution to this issue, it is pricy but like I said, welcome to racing. So yes the MX5 does appear to a be a lower cost option if you want to go do hard racing, but it is very small and impractical. No car is perfect, and generally the less you spend, the more compromises you will have to make. But yes, if you can fit in it and live with its practicality limitations, the MX5 is great and cost effective choice. However, in the overall scheme $5K for a dry sump is not bad, and I am sure it could be done for much less, or maybe there is a more cost effective solution? In this video they talked about the problem, I did not hear anyone mention potential solutions, which is why I mentioned this dry sump option.

[@chrisx5127]

@@ericmichel3857 You hit the nail on the head. No such thing as a perfect vehicle. Though the 2016 Subaru WRX was as close to perfect as it gets (for me), but I didn't have enough money back then :( I really like the Miata, but I also live in Minnesota where it snows 8 to 9 months out of the year. We actually call it Minnesnowda instead.

[@chrisx5127]

@@ericmichel3857 So if I want to take them to the track (eventually), how much do I have to pay to have them mod for track use?

[@ericmichel3857]

@@chrisx5127 That would depend on the car, your expectations for performance, and usage. Are you an experienced road course driver or new to the hobby? Do you want to push it to the limit and be able to keep up with certain types of cars, or do you just want to have fun and push it a bit on occasion? If it is your daily driver you really should be in the latter category. That is what's so funny when people post videos about how they kept up with or passed some random high performance car at a DE event. It is meaningless because you don't know how talented the driver really is, what shape the car/tires are in, and what there intention is, they might have been taking it easy for a number of reasons. It is nothing like actual competition racing where you can be reasonably certain the drivers have a minimum skill/experience level (even then not always, sometimes they just have a lot of money), and the car is optimized (hopefully), and they are pushing to win (again not always, if it is a series sometimes they are just there for points).

[@Crisheight]

Is this not almost the same issue with WRX STI where they need an oil baffle because the G forces in continued turns prevents oil from properly getting circulated? Y'all touched on this but also said oil baffles were not a fix (I think, if I heard right). Disappointing to see all around but hopefully it gets pinpointed down.

[@QuintonLeister]

Yes, one of the issues. Wish they talked about flat engines being the common trait between the STi and BRZ. From what I gather, oil starvation is a risk on any flat engine. The risk depends on pan design and other variables (i.e. wet vs dry sump). On a lateral corner, oil doesn't drain from the head to the pan like a V engine. That might be why we see oil starvation on cars with flat engines more than other designs. With that said, plenty of people drive cars like the STi and BRZ within their engine's intended purpose (street) without issue. My 05 STi has been extremely reliable and the reason I don't upgrade the oiling system is because it's street driven on all seasons tires.

[@DraegerV1]

A Subaru engine with oil related issues, shhhhhhocking...

[@asdowo111]

It still sucks to see that a car designed and advertised for track needs to be "babyed" because its a more cheaper car compared to the Porche's boxer engine. This car is more of a Subaru than a Toyota because of its shitty reliability.

[@thegroundhurts]

You guys do know if the dealer drops the pan and finds RTV they will cover the labor. So if you want it checked talk to your dealer.

[@adamwalker8483]

So keep the stock calipers? When installing the DBA rotors on the front?

[@andrewgriffin7271]

I have a 2023 BRZ just bought it this week, i was aware of the issue and i thought because i am not tracking it i should be ok. But i have back to back round abouts on my way home from work and i usually take them pretty hard, 1G is normal. I don't usually rev it that hard cause i dont want to wake people up so the oil temp is never really high. All that being said, what are the chances i blow my engine doing this, hypothetically of course. Please tell me it is fairly unlikely, it's literally the best part of my day.

[@dreamdrivedrift]

Definitely a real concern. Subaru just cannot make a reliable engine. That may be unfair for me to say because these are street cars and not track cars, whether they "Come with a track day" or not. We have just had better engine manufacturers like Honda, BMW, Porsche that sold street cars that could actually tolerate a good amount of track use whether that's because they had to tolerate Autobahn abuse or because their engineers were fanatical. Subaru, not so much, their cars have never handled track abuse well and have always needed substantial modification to be reliable on track, be it the EJ motor or the FA motor. I would argue (and I hate to admit it) that 30+ track days at advanced/time trial level pace is abuse and I wouldn't expect a manufacturer to cover an engine failure in that setting, just like I would pre-emptively tear down / have a motor on deck for a S2000 after a couple seasons. It's outside of expected use case and design case. For the BRZ, unfortunately or fortunately the chassis around it is just fantastic. And it's practical, interior space is decent, rest of the car is pretty good. And I just can't figure out what to replace this car with besides buying another one. I will probably sell mine before it hits 50k miles and replace it with a new BRZ....run it for another 50K, repeat. Unless I can find a better contender...there are not many new, light, RWD, manual transmission sporty cars for sub 40K.

[@lasliyanage205]

These cars are more accessible to many which means more cars sold and more cars see track work. Are we hearing all of this because of the numbers?

[@ZONE3965]

Elantra N is the answer. Only 2-3k more and actually track ready.

[@FATmenDRIVEtrucks]

When used SS 1LE go back to $30k i'm buying one

[@bhearing7681]

I check my brz oil as often as i check my 200k mile Honda Prelude.

[@pedoloverfortheages]

Sounds like what Porsche 996/997.1 owners were going through in the early 2000’s. Oil starving motors or blowing up AOS’S by just putting good tires.

[@Trisma]

What do you mean over rev the car? It has a rev limiter, unless you are downshifting at high RPM this should not be an issue.

[@RobustArid379]

I’m selling mines after this video and going to RC F

[@throker]

Questions to Zygrene: Of the track guys you know that have blown their engines. 1. I'm curious if any of them were running oil baffles, oil coolers or any other mitigating mods/steps??? 2. Had any of them dropped the oil pan and cleaned the pickup?

[@jpbacosa4079]

Cant you guys do a class action lawsuit?

[@freytheviking]

If it is oil starvation, shouldn’t an oil pan baffle fix a lot it?

[@jumboshirmp]

You’d think so, but current designs on the market only solve for vertical sloshing and not high G lateral forces on long track turns. KillerB Motorsports has an impressive design currently in extensive R&D testing. Should remedy the oils starvation issue once and for all.

[@beancheung5682]

Accusump seems to be able to fight this issue and easier to maintain than drysump, what makes you guys to opt out on accusump?

[@bpt582]

Just curious, when BRZ Boi #1 blew his engine at buttonwillow, do you happen to know which corner it let go at? Riverside or Phil Hill maybe?

[@MarkJCarruthers]

Are you talking Liqui-Moly Cera Tec?

[@RyanPine]

How do you fellas feel about drifting them? For sure gonna blow it up with all those G’s ? I see some at drift events in my area. Running stock motors.

[@Cichlid_Visuals]

a super important factor im not hearing you guys mention about these individual cases is, what oil and more importantly oil weight is being used in these cars with engine failures?

[@Cichlid_Visuals]

@@twhalen i really hope so. i wouldnt abuse these engines with 0w20, a 5w30 would be the minimum for sure.

[@shahrukhbakar3248]

Hopefully you guys can share the data with Subaru and Toyota showing the oil pressure drops during right hand turns

[@Zygrene]

Already on it!

[@chrisanderson2901]

I ran the piss out of my build 16 valve in my 86, why did they have no issues

[@tomdowning9358]

If amateurs think they can race these cars and abuse them without proper prep and maintenance, they should pay themselves. Track use needs to be learned and you must maintain your car after every track day. That is what professionals do. And also, 99% of people know nothing about racing a car, shifting properly, or using the brakes properly so that's that. I would decline all cases if there is no record of properly preparing and maintaining your car for track use.

[@turkicsayajin2274]

u explained what i was thinking so clearly thank you, this really makes me less nervous. So much people track the car and then just put it in their driveway like they came back from work 🤣 wth

[@squareenixffost]

It is enough. It is only whether Toyota and Subaru is willing to actual fix it instead of bandage. Greedy manufacture usually first response don’t care what customer thinks and depend on their field techs.

[@sunnyvalentino]

Subaru just can't make a decent reliable engine. Really sad. Another reason why STI folks are running over to the GR Corolla and getting out when they can.

[@gigi9467]

Miata is always the answer guys lol

[@iheartgs400]

Inline 4 rules over boxer all day. K Swap the 86.

[@lucianolucidi8624]

I see my mx5 2.0 ND2 RF in soul red color as a masterpiece. So .. yes I agree

[@876yuugt]

The chassis isn't stiff enough. Gr86 is 3x stiffer. I'd rather just K24 engine swap a GR

[@lucianolucidi8624]

@@876yuugt i don't notice any torsion issue on my RF when I drive it fast.

[@876yuugt]

​@@lucianolucidi8624I did. As well as in my AP2. Why I prefer coupes.

[@Mike-hk6rw]

Was waiting for one but I can’t do it,I’m a blue collar guy can’t eat that sorta loss….shame

[@koo08]

Glad I got out while my engine was still good