CNC Build Ep 1: What is the Best CNC For You? Why I bought Avid CNC vs Phantom, Laguna, Shop Sabre

I bought an Avid CNC - the 4896 Pro with a full 4' by 8' table. I spent over $20,000 buying this machine, and I still had to build it myself! Why did I choose this CNC router over Phantom CNC, Laguna Swift, Grizzly, Shop Sabre, Baileigh, Camaster Stringer III, Legacy Maverick, Grizzly G0895, or a Tormach 24R. I looked at them all, and these are the reasons why I went with Avid. The bottom line: it comes down to what I want to do, and the price. If you are considering a new CNC machine, the first one for beginners, a big one for more advanced operations, or production work, then watch this video to get some of my opinions on why I purchased what I did. What is important to me may not be important to you, so carefully consider all your options! This video is geared towards DIY, creative artists, and genuine woodworkers. If you are just cutting 2D shapes on plywood..then still watch it, as I have some ideas for you so you don't buy the wrong CNC!
One specific thing I forgot to mention in the video: I was targeting a machine with a 4'x8' cutting area. I want the ability to cut a full sheet of plywood - but this has some caveats, which you may realize when you see how I setup my machine.
Nick's Video: • Which is the Best CNC ...
Jay Bates Vertical Work Table: • Avid CNC Ep3: Vertical...
CNC Build Playlist: • Avid CNC Build
Ep 1: What CNC To Buy - • CNC Build Ep 1: What i...
Ep 2: Welded CNC Table - • CNC Build Ep 2: How to...
Ep 3: Making an Avid CNC Precise: • CNC Build Ep 3: How to...
Ep 4: How to Tram a CNC: • CNC Build Ep 4: How to...
Ep 5: Automatic Tool Changer: • CNC Build Ep 5: How to...
Ep 6: ATC Tool Rack Build - • CNC Build Ep 6: Automa...
Ep 7: ATC Setup in Mach 4 - • CNC Build Ep 7: Custom...
Ep 8: ATC Tool Heights - • CNC Build Ep 8: How to...
Ep 9: ATC Post Processor Setup - • CNC Build Ep 9: ATC Po...
Ep 10: 3D Printed Dust Boot - • CNC Build Ep 10: Print...
Ep 11: Improving the Avid CNC Table - • CNC Build Ep 11: Impro...
Ep 12: CNC Spoilboard - • CNC Build Ep 12: Make ...
Machines Considered:
Avid CNC: www.avidcnc.com
Phantom CNC: phantomcncsystems.com
Legacy: lwmcnc.com/maverick-4x8-mtc/
Grizzly: www.grizzly.com/products/griz...
Laguna: lagunatools.com/cnc/swift-ser...
Baileigh: www.baileigh.com/cnc-routing-...
Camaster: www.camaster.com/cnc-routers/...
Stepcraft: www.stepcraft.us
No machine could really do everything I wanted to do within the price range I wanted to pay except the Avid! I did think about Stepcraft, as I could have bought a 4x8 machine for around the same price as my Avid, but I thought I could build something better (more powerful Nema 34 vs Stepcraft's Nema 23 and 3hp max ATC spindle). Stepcrafts ball screws are more appealing for accuracy, which is also really important to me. I could go into so many more details about other things I considered: servo vs stepper motors, motor size, drive details, rack and pinion, helical gears, belt driven vs gear driven -- there are so many things to consider. Hopefully this video will help you make some decisions on your own.
Corbin Dunn
www.corbinstreehouse.com // blog
www.corbinsworkshop // CNC Files, STLs, products available
References: Screen shots and references are used under "fair use" for teaching and education about CNC machines.
Dovetail cutting video: • CNC Project: Using Dov...
from ToolsToday - I've bought lots of bits from them over the years!
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:14 What Are You Going to Make?
1:55 Vertical Work Table
3:01 The Spindle
5:58 Gantry Height
7:40 Rotary Axis
8:36 Full Display vs Pendant
9:56 A Full PC
10:52 The Work Table
12:39 Machine Build
13:27 Steel Frame Table
14:02 Money, Money, Money
16:09 Other Options
#cncwoodworking #cnc #avidcnc

[@CorbinDunn]

I'm super interested to know what you all think. What machine did you buy? (Or are you going to buy?) And why?

[@maddogtungate6740]

I got the 4x8 Avid for the same reasons you did. I also talked with Nick from Phantom.

[@CorbinDunn]

@@maddogtungate6740 Awesome! I'm sure you'll be happy with the machine..mine has been awesome, and super flexible with things I want to do with it.

[@maddogtungate6740]

@@CorbinDunn I am also interested in the steel frame you built. Is it that much better than the aluminum?

[@CorbinDunn]

@@maddogtungate6740 Yes it is a ton better, but I am only basing that on what I've seen about the stock aluminum tables and discussions with people on the internet about it. Check out videos 2 and 11 in the build series -- particularly 11 (I'll link to it) because I made my table better with more supports, and that brace helped more than the weight. I've heard people have gotten really sturdy aluminum tables by attaching MDF on the sides to create a rigid box. Even so..mine is heavier....and heavier is better for reducing chatter. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZuog5yaZrCrppYsi=1UbiK6YNgGFb0-Wc

[@maddogtungate6740]

@@CorbinDunn Thanks buddy!

[@jeffweiss2131]

Great report, thank you for taking the time to do such a good job of your analysis.

[@CorbinDunn]

Thanks!

[@christophermussel5783]

Thanks for the info. I'm working through this decision process myself. I really appreciate it.

[@CorbinDunn]

Cool! I'm glad you found it helpful....it was a tough decision on my part. I've been using the Avid for quite a few months now, and it is solid.

[@InspiredCraftsman]

I was seriously looking at avid and was set on the pro 4896. I stumbled across a shopbot prsalpha 60x96 with 4hp spindle used for $9,000. I bought it having never run a cnc. I contacted shopbot while setting it up and they were prompt and very helpful. I can't say enough about their customer service. I built my own vacuum hold down system with 12 zones and it's great to use. Great video on what worked for you.

[@CorbinDunn]

Cool - sounds like you got a good deal! I've heard great things about ShopBot; our local maker space has one, and I know the guy who helped set it up.

[@Human_OU812]

Nice video Corbin. Well reasoned and many of the same reason I got my Avid.

[@CorbinDunn]

Thanks Jason! I've been pretty happy with the machine. The ATC is really a game changer.

[@FergusonBoatworks]

I bought a shop sabre and wish I didnt. I got the Rc8 which is there lower budget machine, added some options. When I had issues I was told I bought the wrong machine and I should lower my expectations. I spent north of 35k to be told oh well, I literally told them I could have got a Avid for a fraction of the costs and it would cut better. My shaepoko 3 had a better edge finish and its a belt drive v wheel machine. All that to say you made a good choice.

[@CorbinDunn]

Damn! I'm sorry to hear that. I was hoping that the Shop Sabre base machines would have been at least as good as an Avid.

[@hotshoestudios]

Very helpful video. I'm still undecided. So many options now

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah, it is a tough decision! I would love a ball screw machine for more precision. I might have more heavily looked into the Stepcraft with an ATC, if I were to do it again. Or maybe not...so many options!

[@hotshoestudios]

Yeah and that doesn't even begin to consider resale value. I was looking at a ShopSabre but is 2x the cost of the Avid. Looking into an Axiom 4x4 now@@CorbinDunn

[@lowrider9367]

Nice Video. We are looking at getting a CNC for work & we are looking at the Phantom. Now I am off to check out the Avid as well as some other machines you mentioned. You are spot on with the ATC. I have 2 CNC machines at home & all manual tool changing. VERY TIME CONSUMING as well as the risk of not resetting your Z after changeout.

[@CorbinDunn]

Cool! there are so many options these days that it is easy to get lost on what to buy.

[@lawrence575]

I’m going to echo what others have said thanks for this information it helped me be firm in my decision for the avidcnc👏👏👏

[@CorbinDunn]

Thanks!! I'm super happy with the Avid - I love the customization I can do to it...and it has been really precise and accurate for CNC woodworking. I'm sure you'll like yours too!

[@timcrist8612]

Corbin, thanks for posting this, AND posting a link to the alternate view. Just FYI. I live in MT and just got a quote on a Phantom Shadow48 with vac from my visit with them at AWFS. One thing that also impressed me at that show was the guys from Fanuc were in the booth talking and pointing twice when I was there. We cannot read anything into that other than it seemed they were impressed. Shipping was $6000 from NC. That took the total to North of $30K. The machine is super solid and fits my needs, but I wonder if Avid might be a better stepping stone. I am also intrigued with the rotary CNC on the Avid as I have a use to make tapered legs instead of buy them custom. Thanks for putting this together.

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah, it is really hard to swallow adding 25% to the cost of a machine just for shipping! I've seen been pretty happy with my Avid, but it does take a lot of DIY work. I'm still planning on making my table more rigid by welding in some more steel. Other than that...it has been working great for me doing part time projects (most of what is seen here on KZbin). You can get an Avid for probably half the cost of the Phantom...but they really are hard to compare at those price points.

[@cncwoodcrafofficial]

Great job

[@markhamilton8765]

Very clear well thought out information - thank you! NEW SUB here.

[@CorbinDunn]

Thanks!!

[@thewoodologist8176]

Awesome video! Love my avid

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah! Mine has been holding up great. I've got some improvement ideas to do for my table pretty soon.

[@joshpit2003]

Yikes, that shipping price difference is huge. I got my Avid mainly so that I could fit it through my door and into my basement.

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah, seriously! They also don't give the exact quote until the machine would be ready to ship in a few months...so it was a little nerve racking to get a $4-$5k bill for shipping after waiting two months for them to build the machine, and then decide that I wouldn't want to go for such a high shipping cost. And $1k to rent a tele handler (with delivery), but I might be able to move such a machine with my Bobcat loader (although it'd be iffy and on the edge of what it could do). This made me realize I should consider other options that have lower shipping costs, as the extra money could be spent on the machine and not just moving it from one place to another.

[@timtan7258]

I have an Avid 6x12 waiting for me to assemble. I did not buy the leg kit and the electronics. Just a legless table with the gantry and rack and pinion. Decided on the Avid because it can be bought piece-meal. I plan to just use a basic Bosch 1612 router to start off with and when I have enough hours under my belt and air setup properly, to the CNC Depot spindle for quick change. Whether I go rotary or even to the ATC or not remains to be seen. I am a serious hobbyist so I can afford to take my time. Love your honest opinions about how and why you decided on what you did.

[@CorbinDunn]

Awesome! I'm sure you'll love the machine. I did a video on welding my own table - check it out in case you want to do something similar. I'm planning on beefing it up some more in the future. I also know some people make tables out of wood, and it works quite well for them.

[@NSResponder]

Every time I see the UI of one of these machines I think that the world really needs Mac and/or iOS-based CNC. That's probably a four or five man-year undertaking.

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah! The UI is written in Lua, and can be customized. The language isn't too bad to work with. I've already done a bunch of rework to make things easier and safer to avoid some mistakes.

[@poppatapir9924]

Great video

[@CorbinDunn]

Thanks!

[@zackbridgman]

Where the AVID has the leg up is you can add ATC at any time. That’s not the case with all the other machines

[@CorbinDunn]

That's another very good point; you can start smaller and build up when needed.

[@dwightbauer6705]

About 6 years when I bought My Large CNC (4x8), I got an Importers license for a couple of hundred dollars and Imported mine directly from China (2 lasers and the CNC), when you order from Cina you need to spec all the componets or they will add cheaper componets to save them money. but doing it that way I saved well over 50% ( it was a 60 to 75 day process begining to end) also I thought it was very smart of you to create your own platform, but you mentioned sitffening it , my machine has 4x4 steel like yours but also has runners from leg to leg about 6 inchs from the floor. also I keep my spindle water cooler and my dust collector underneath it.

[@CorbinDunn]

Cool! I've heard mixed reviews on people importing machines; some people (like you) seem to have had great success, and other people have had a nightmare of an experience. What company did you get the machine(s) from? I am in the market for a laser at some point...

[@dwightbauer6705]

I oredered it from the blue elephant factory, they packed it up and put it in a shipping container , loaded it on the ship...From there a I got an impoet company to do my bidding at the port ( getting thru customs, and moving it to the port closest to my house in northeren kentucky (louisville) once it cleared customs in Louisville you must pick it up fast after one or two days they start charging you yard rent. I found a tow truck company in Louisville with a tilt bed truck and had them pick up the cnc from the port and bring it right to the fornt of my garage where they tilted the bed and sat it down right at my garage door then I took four of the furniture dollys from harbor freight jacked up the crate and used my lawn mower to pull it in the shop and uncrated it. same with the two lasers.@@CorbinDunn

[@CorbinDunn]

Thanks for the info@@dwightbauer6705 ! I have heard about blue elephant, and they do seem like a good direct to consumer company from China.

[@NSResponder]

Would be interesting to see you take on some traditional Japanese joinery with that machine.

[@CorbinDunn]

Definitely! I've got a book on japanese joinery, and it is on my mind to see if I can machine some complex stuff.

[@NSResponder]

@@CorbinDunn The basic keyed scarf joint would be fun, and the really advanced things that go together like puzzles could be amazing. Things that would take a week of hand work could be done in a couple hours of coding and an hour of machine time.

[@velocityacoustics]

Great video. Do you do this as a hobby, or a business? I was thinking about getting into CNC and i live close to lake tahoe as well. It would be really cool if one day you could show me your setup.

[@CorbinDunn]

It’s a hobby business. I’d like to make money with it, but my main goal is to at least break even. My KZbin channel and selling some woodworking items is all I do these days, but I don’t do it full time, as I watch my 5 year old a bit and I like doing other stuff (snow sports, MTB and climbing). If I wanted to focus on it as a business I would have to focus on commissioned items, whereas I prefer to make things that interest me. It can be hard to make money with a CNC - I think a lot of KZbinrs claim you can make a lot but in reality it will not pan out; it really depends on what you are doing. If you are a cabinet shop and you aren’t using a CNC then you really should get one. You are welcome to come by my shop! I can show you my setup and answer any questions you might have. Send me an email.

[@cokimi1301]

Hey I see you printed some awesome covers for your Y1 and Y2 motors. Any chance you might share those stl files for a fellow avid 4x8 owner? I Like your videos, I learn a lot. I got mine just a year ago. Cheers from Amsterdam

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah! I found them in the Avid CNC Facebook group; I didn't make them. I'm not sure who originally made them. Send me an email and I'll send you the STL. corbin @ corbinstreehouse dot com.

[@kimbye1]

What puzzles me most about Avid is the steppers they use. No closed loop, no clearpath. I wonder how much there's to gain in accuracy by upgrading to closed loop steppers or servos? My machine came with generic Nema 23 steppers, swapped them with Clearpath and I think it's a world of difference.

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah, that's a good point! I bet they would increase accuracy and repeatability -- and let you know when something goes wrong to avoid a bigger problem (losing a step).

[@craigmartin6826]

The gantry hight on my LAGUNA 2 Elite 4 axis rotary is over 12 inches. The LAGUNA is made in texas mine was a 100 thousand. An I can haul all my stuff no size matters.

[@CorbinDunn]

Sweet! Laguna's got some good machines that are super rigid even with a 12" gantry. I do wish I could afford a $100k for a CNC ;).

[@larrybrown1194]

You mentioned running your CAD/CAM software (fusion, vetric, etc...) off the same computer you run mach 4. This is something I always wanted to do for the same reasons you mentioned but AVID has always STRONGLY recommended against it. Have you done a lot of cutting with this set up? Have you noticed any glitches? Thank you!

[@CorbinDunn]

You probably don't want to be designing stuff in CAD/CAM while your machine is cutting. I do leave Fusion 360 running in the background while my machine is cutting; that is no problem. I've done this a bunch without a problem. Occasionally I will look at the model while the machine is running, but I try not to do anything processor intensive, like changing the model or generating toolpaths.

[@larrybrown1194]

Thank you for the reply. Did you still use the AVID utility set up program to configure your computer for Mach 4? It's my understanding that fiddles with alot of the settings for your computer like auto updates and such. Or did you just install and run mach 4 as is?

[@CorbinDunn]

@@larrybrown1194 I used Avid's version of Mach 4 and ran their wizard to do the initial setup. Since then, I've written a custom screen and some code for supporting an Automatic Tool Changer (ATC). A bunch of people with ATCs are now using my screen set. Check out the later videos for details on it. I've had no issues with updates so far.

[@ammo1033]

I run mach4 and mastercam simultaneously with no problem for more than a year now. I have a powerful desk top computer. It’s not a custom computer but the most powerful one that Best Buy had on the shelf.

[@fierceflyer5]

I considered the Avid but went with i2R CNC because I didn’t have to build the machine and they had great pre (and post)sale customer service which Avid did not. They didn’t want to answer any questions, just told me which machine I should buy which turned me off.

[@CorbinDunn]

Awesome - How have you been liking the machine? I've heard good things about them, and the ball screws are nice for accuracy. I did look at those, despite not mentioning them in the video. I opted to not get them because I wanted a 4'x8' table, and I didn't see them offering that size. I did consider Stepcraft, which has as similar build style in 4x8, and even offer an ATC. I ended up not getting a StepCraft due to the limited gantry height, and the ATC being 3 HP (which, probably would have been fine), and them using smaller stepper motors. I haven't had to contact Avid support yet; I did report some bugs in their UI and software on their forum, and they did acknowledge them. I know there is a large Avid community and a lot of helpful people, but sometimes it is essential to have good post-sales support from the vendor, so I know where you are coming from!

[@fierceflyer5]

@@CorbinDunn you’re absolutely right about i2R not having a 4x8. Mine is perfect for me and the plug and play was what I wanted to get running the day I got it. Avid had a different name earlier, I think cnc machine parts, then they changed names and machines and they exploded the cnc market. The downside was they lost the personal touch with customers. Worked out for them and a lot of KZbinrs who got their machines for free to promote them. I know you didn’t and I know Avid machines are great machines, just not for me at this point. BTW, I really like your bowls and box designs. Very unique and beautiful.

[@joshwarner5676]

What was the spindle you got and for much did it cost you? I'm looking to upgrade to an ATC setup on my router and I've been looking at the CNC depot spindle, but something a bit more powerful might be nice.

[@CorbinDunn]

I got the HITECO QD-1F from CNC Depot. You can email them and request a quote; I want to say it was around $7k (for a turnkey package), so nearly $3k more than the standard 3 HP spindle they offer. I did have to get a few more hoses, and customize the setup to be a little better than what they provided by default. I'm not sure I really need the additional power, and a 3HP spindle might have been fine for the majority of stuff that I am doing. I think if I was going to do it again, I'd probably just get the 3 HP, unless I was flattening a lot of big slabs. Avid has a video showing how their 8.7 hp motor can chew through material way faster than the 4 hp motor, and that video really made me want a bigger spindle...but I'm not sure how often I'll do something like that, and I have to take smaller cuts to avoid other issues (ie: chipout) with some of my projects.

[@NSResponder]

@@CorbinDunn Regarding tearout, I wonder if pre-scoring with a drag knife would make much difference.

[@CorbinDunn]

@@NSResponder Yeah, that's an interesting idea! The main problem with tearout / chipping is when I use a soft wood, specifically redwood. The same toolpaths don't give me a problem with hard woods, like maple and cherry. Usually I can work around issues by choosing a different tool path strategy.

[@joshwarner5676]

@@CorbinDunn thanks for the info! I definitely don't do a lot of slab flattening or anything I'm that vein really, so the extra HP might be wasted on me

[@steverb70]

Hey Corbin, I purchased an Axiom AR8 Elite a few years ago for about 12k. If your not familiar with this machine it has a 2x4 cutting area. The initial machine had an issue and the customer service was great in getting me over a new one. I have had pretty good luck with the machine up until now in which the controller has failed and needs to be replaced for 5500. Ouch. I am considering putting that money towards a new machine and working to see what my options are. I cut sign materials... wood, plastics, aluminum and even do fine work such as applique and braille on the machine so I have been pretty happy with it precision. Do you have any experience with Axiom?... and what are your thoughts on their products respectively? Cheers.

[@CorbinDunn]

Hi Steve, sorry for the slow reply! I was out a bit. I do not have direct experience with Axiom, and at the time they didn't have a 4'x8' machine, so I didn't look too much into it. They do have ball screws all around, which are great for precision, and likely a lot more precise than the Avid CNC or any other using a rack and pinion system. My best suggestion is to make a spread sheet comparing the features that are important to you, and various price points.

[@kevinwillis6707]

Thanks Corbin, did you get a price for the legacy machine?

[@CorbinDunn]

I emailed them several times but I wasn't getting any response. They used to post their base price, and the 3x5 base machine was $20k a few years ago, according to my notes. I'm sure it is a bit more than that know. 3x5 was smaller than I wanted, and the 4x8 was a lot more (I didn't write the price down back then).

[@kevinwillis6707]

@@CorbinDunn thanks

[@waheeddawodu9892]

Hmmm. Shipping wise, I would have gone with Phantom, rented a Ryder box truck and drive.

[@CorbinDunn]

That's an interesting idea! I'd have to price it out to see how that's work out. I would probably be a flight to NC, somewhere around $200-$400 from California. I've rented box trucks before...but I forget how much it was. I'd probably be at least $1k in gas. One of the tricky parts would be loading it and getting it back out: I think they fork lift it from the side, and can put it on a flat bed trailer from the side. It would be hard to slide it into the back of a box truck. Definitely an idea worth exploring!

[@MrDante195]

Hi, I have 8.7 hp spindle installed on my avid cnc pro, i am very curious to see what can this much power can do? Can you suggest me some cutting params to utilize the full 8.7 hp, I usually machine aluminium and hard wood on it.

[@CorbinDunn]

Sure; Avid's demo video showed one example for the 8 hp vs the smaller one. You can do a larger depth of cut to remove more material. That's really it. For example, instead of just doing a 3/8" DOC with a 3/8" bit, you could probably do 1/2" or more. You have to experiment...and potentially break bits to find the limits.

[@lukemiller7805]

dax flames father

[@CorbinDunn]

LOL :)

[@rambonil2]

Dude, your video has the same format, same font and thumbnail of this video kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZvVpouEr8Rsns0, looks made by the same team.

[@mavigogun]

Watch this video again- Corbin referenced the linked-to video directly as inspiration.

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah, I copied Nick's thumbnail style in jest. I was trying to make the same points, but towards the Avid CNC instead of the Phantom CNC.

[@darkstarprojekt]

Canada is feeling those shipping costs now with the BS carbon tax. Regulations and taxes drove up the cost of everything on the supply chain. I Can't wait to get back home in Utah and benefit from Capitalism again, lol. It sucks up here.

[@CorbinDunn]

Yeah, a lot of Grizzly and other imported woodworking tools went up in prices in 2018 due to a huge increase in import taxes. I definitely feel that pain!

[@darkstarprojekt]

Maybe Texas can Separate, and take everything from Panama all the way up to Alert Bay, Canada? LOL @@CorbinDunn