Coates and Kanye | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]

0:52 Are Glenn and John part of the “Intellectual Dark Web”?
8:16 The Starbucks incident and other racist affronts
15:25 John: Microaggressions can’t keep me down
24:33 Glenn says his ideological opponents know they’re holding a losing hand
33:27 Glenn: Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote a “racist screed” about Kanye
43:36 What was Kanye trying to say about slavery?
50:39 Trump as rapper
56:15 Has Trump done anything for black Americans?
Glenn Loury (Brown University) and John McWhorter (Time, Columbia University, Talking Back, Talking Black)
Recorded May 10, 2018
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[@EdwardMandellHouse]

I love Glenn, but when I heard him say to John "I'm going to give you the last word" I knew John wasn't going to get the last word.

[@jamesclement8985]

EdwardMandellHouse Loves to hear himself talk, doesn't he?

[@JustThinkingOutLoud]

Like. Two smart people talking.

[@KAIZORIANEMPIRE]

they are gay

[@KAIZORIANEMPIRE]

and not very smart either probably white supremacist leftists that pander to logic and reason

[@elizabethbennet4791]

lolwut

[@KAIZORIANEMPIRE]

@Critical Black Race Hippo lol they both made it to high levels of success as professors in great universities. Their IQ is atleast 127 at minimum. That's much higher than an average of 85 for the so called Blackman. That's in the top 3% regardless of race.

[@krapfantasy]

@@KAIZORIANEMPIRE hahah you sound like you're intellectually insecure yourself. You probably should be.

[@bertrandrussell894]

Never stop guys. You both are a true pleasure.

[@Judel100]

You two are my intellectual idols.

[@vanKrapfen]

I've had a few drinks, so let me just say, I love you guys!

[@melaniefafard8238]

As a new listener and a republican I have to say I love listening to you all nice critical thinking with open minds. Thank you

[@Bornearth75]

Although I don’t always agree, I absolutely love you guys. Your conversations are energizing.

[@YogGroove]

Its called the intellectual dark web. Its a compliment. You guys are refreshing and wonderful.

[@delailama736]

It's actually the international dork web....

[@LOLCoolJ]

I always learn so much from watching you two. Perspectives I've never considered. Thank you.

[@0xyartes]

@ 39 min mark lol at Johns “is it over” and Glenn’s laugh.

[@jimmylemessurier332]

YOU ARE BOTH GREAT MEN. THANK YOU.THANK YOU.THANK YOU.

[@agentorangechicago]

Once again speaking truth to false notions. Thanks guys.

[@j.c.anderson877]

I was waiting for this.

[@johnkalanik1526]

I went into the Starbucks on Monument Circle in Indianapolis. I asked to use the restroom which remains locked unless the barista "buzzes" you in. I asked to be let in, and they would not because I had not ordered anything. I had planned to come out and order, however, I did order first, and they let me in the restroom. I had on a sport coat. I am white. Had I been black, would that have been a micro aggression?

[@rickhaack3811]

You guys, IMO, are part of the Intellectual Dark Web. Love your conversations and I hope to see more of you in the IDW lineup/tour. Keep sharing, please.

[@sodapop83]

when these people will be called part of the intellectual BRIGHT web? and the other morons the dark ones?

[@potterbugs]

Please keep talking about what you're talking about even if it's tiring. You guys are about to blow up in circles outside of academia and your conversation needs to be heard.

[@sergiocorreaasmar]

I can't understand why Glenn is so offended when people generalize, when he is constantly generalizing what "his opponents" think. Also, just like "his opponents" he uses anecdotal evidence to back up some of his arguments. I guess this is what we call tribalism. *And it comes from both sides* (wrongly assuming that there are only two sides).

[@ark8949]

But there are just two sides. Either racism is the first order explanation to the subordinate status of disturbing amount of African Americans or it is a secondary perhaps tertiary explanation. Each side will have to mount an argument or arguments. All one needs to do is understand the other side's argument and respond. But since the other side consists of a lot of people each with a slightly different version of the argument one has to distill the essence of all their arguments into something that can be said in 3 minutes. Do not confuse tribalism for debate. Tribalism is picking a side , ignoring evidence, logic and reason for the mere sake being in good graces with the fellow tribe members. What your comments evince is a false sense of impartiality.

[@sergiocorreaasmar]

Amara Katabarwa so for the sake of a podcast he is ignoring how complex humans and societies are. I agree that what he argues can be true for *some* people, but not for all.

[@ark8949]

You are right that human beings are not electrons and that describing a one is not describing all. Apart from very basic and boring facts about humans everything else is complicated and one quickly begins to rely on arguments that have a statistical underpinning and this is all we have left. But anyways, the statements we argue about usually apply to some people and not all. So for example when some one argues that blacks have higher crime rate per capita than whites they are not making a statement about all blacks or all whites and so it is missing the point to argue that society is complex and that not every black person is a criminal. If we decide that we can't make any remarks that are not true for everyone then we should all just shut up. This is a pet peeve of mine i.e people deciding that statements that are true on average should not be said because one can find exceptions. This attitude sounds high minded and progressive but in the end becomes anti-intellectual because it makes even the most rigorous parts of the social sciences impossible forget about podcasts.

[@postpaal]

He's not arguing out of offence...he's proposing it's counter productive...and holding his community back.

[@sergiocorreaasmar]

Amara Katabarwa that's not what I am saying. The high crime rate example is a fact, no doubt about it. However, the important issue is to understand why is that the case and what to do about it. That is where we can't put everyone in a box.

[@sifridbassoon]

I love watching and listening to you two guys.

[@tercerocastero]

Wow! Enjoyed this discussion immensely. Just started listening to you Glenn and love you and John together, how you play of each other and sharpen each other is so wonderful. Can wait to start catching up on your other videos.

[@MMSShake]

You guys are awesome, thanks for doing this show

[@jeremyreagan9085]

I love both you Glenn and John. You gentlemen are so rational! Please mention 19th century authors like William wells brown and relate their thoughts to the present debate over race relations today.

[@FountainPenHighwayman]

When Bulworth was mentioned, I had to go look for it to appreciate the reference, and am resuming the convo. To anyone reading this in 2020, well worth watching. It's a movie that could scarcely be made in this hyper sensitized identitarian landscape. The jokes and the political statements in the movie still hold up. More relevant than ever in most cases. Thanks Glenn and John for having these illuminating discussions. Black leadership needs a real revolution

[@dlaryous]

On Starbucks... a quick play-by-play: Two men walk into a coffee shop and one of them asks to use the bathroom. The manager denies access based on company policy. The two men remain in the restaurant without purchasing anything. The manager asks the men if they want to buy anything, and they refuse. The manager then asks the men to leave, and they refuse.The manager has two options at this point: A) do nothing and essentially give up any authority she has as manager, basically handing the keys to these two men, or B) remove the men. Of course, she cannot physically remove two grown men on her own, so she will need to ask for assistance. I've never been in a Starbucks that has a security guard, so her only option is to call the police. The police arrive and ask the men to leave--once again they refuse. The officers have the same two options: A) do nothing, in which case they might as well turn in their badges because they no longer have any authority as police officers, or B) physically remove the men from the premises. In both cases the undesirable decision B seems like the only option (especially for the officers). My question is: At what point in telling this story is it necessary for me to mention the race of characters in order to better understand what happened here?

[@dlaryous]

This is precisely my point. It is unclear whether race played a role (and we have every reason to think that it didn't), yet the story made national news, Starbucks threw their employee under the bus, and millions of dollars will be lost/spent on shutting down thousands of branches and enforcing mandatory "diversity training." For some reason John and Glenn, who are usually so clear-headed about these matters, jumped right on the bandwagon. Should I ask, if you were going to an important business meeting would you show up in your sweats, risk ruining the entire thing by not spending 1 dollar on a cup of coffee/stick of gum, then get yourself arrested by refusing to obey the commands of a police officer? In my opinion these men were exhibiting strangely narcissistic, entitled, and anti-social behavior.

[@dlaryous]

I didn't mention your first paragraph because it had nothing to do with the question that I originally posed. I can think of many reasons why one might want to consider race in a specific situation. I was asking at what point in this specific story is it necessary to know the races of the people involved -- everything was done by the book, the only people that deviated from their role were the patrons who refused to patronize the restaurant they were in. The race variable only enters the picture as a consequence of assumptions that need not be made in the first place. Unless, of course, you are sure that a white person has never been kicked out of a restaurant for loitering, or arrested for trespassing and refusing to leave.

[@dlaryous]

I get it, this situation could have involved prejudice. *Every* situation could potentially involve prejudice. Perhaps the manager wouldn't have called the cops if the two men were women. There's no evidence to suggest that she is not a rabid man-hater! Considering everything was done by the books, though, it'd be pretty silly to fire her and break out the placards and lawsuits. In fact, I think it'd make sense to give her the benefit of the doubt in this situation. I lean the direction I do because I'd prefer to live in a society where we don't crucify people based on: "well, we can't prove that she wasn't a racist." If someone thinks race was involved in this situation, the onus is on them to provide evidence.

[@jengleheimerschmitt7941]

learning sharin You are precisely representing the problem at hand. By your thinking, any situation where something unfortunate happens to a black guy, the burden of evidence is on someone else to prove that they are not racist. You are making a mockery of the civil rights movement. You are making identitfying real racism impossible because you conflate racisim with, well, pretty much everything. In order for a society to function there has to be some general presumption of good will, or everything will devolve into conflict. Those assholes at Starbucks were being entitled assholes. You don't demand to take up space in a crowded cafe and refuse to buy anything.... and then to stand down the police? Did Rosa Parks refuse to pay the bus fare? Were the lunch counter sit-ins refusing to buy their own lunch, or demanding free sandwiches? You are making a ridiculous overreach and do not deserve to be taken seriously.

[@prestonstroud3878]

Sydney Bell an interesting thought on the example of being mistaken for the AV guy... It's said that there is no other reason besides race that he'd be assumed to be a tech guy... What if the person running the event had just told the lady at the front that the AV guy was running late and wassupoosed to be there any minute? Having a bag might indicate you have gear too. Plenty of AV people dress to match an occasion at a given conference or meeting or whatever.

[@nicmart]

I posted the following on the talk page of the Wikipedia entry for Ta-Nehisi Coates: "It is not permitted to include accusations of his racism because it runs in opposition to dominant ideology of Wikipedia editors. “ It was reverted (removed) within two hours by "Malik Shabazz.” You aren’t even allowed to mention criticisms of Coates, and so there is nothing by his critics in the entry itself. Of course Wikipedia is a sham.

[@kevinstamper400]

Y'all are the best!!! Wow please continue to push forward!!!! I absolutely love your alls take!

[@petitio_principii]

Loury is so immensely generous in his Kanye West's psychoanalysis.

[@marykornegayjohnson8818]

What a learning experience

[@manutdfan4321]

You two are a delight keep up the great work

[@Guedingen]

This is electrifying. I think they should have stopped at 26.00, because Glenn said a lot which John needed to reflect on. It's pretty much par for the course with you guys. Many thanks.

[@thehoodservative]

The bluff question raised a good point and my fear of leftism. When you win the argument on facts they won't see it as a lost debate. They'll see it as being defeated by a type of evil. This whole thing does have a quasi religious air to it.

[@postpaal]

Great episode as always... interesting and entertaining... you should have your own TV show!

[@ArtworkAnon]

Great talk boys. Always love yer perspectives.

[@Jennifer-bx8ns]

Thank you for having an open conversation about race. It's this kind of conversation that will save America. We need you guys. And because you're discussing this is a civil, respectful, intelligent and unemotional manner, that DOES make you part of the Intellectual Dark Web. Glenn and John, have you considered going on the Rubin Report?

[@danielkrienert2382]

When people started mentioning the "intellectual dark web" I thought that Loury and McWhorter were definitely part of it.

[@sergiocorreaasmar]

So Glenn is comparing Trump's racism with an early 1960s president's one. Such a good use of historical context! And he was complaining because people bring Jim Crow and slavery to nowadays discussions. Oh please!

[@mayainverse9429]

still don't understand how Trump is a racist. he has done more for blacks int his country in a year than Obama did in 8.

[@sergiocorreaasmar]

Christian Gerber really? Source?

[@sergiocorreaasmar]

So unemployment is low because of Trump? You should see the whole data series since Obama took office.

[@obo2999]

Sergio Correa Asmar Trump is a racist because they don't like him. They don't need proof. The word means nothing anymore.

[@joemalik575]

"They are rapists." "all have aids" "shit hole countries" "politically motivated ingrates" “I think I might have more Indian blood than a lot of the so-called Indians that are trying to open up the reservations.” “Miss Housekeeping.” “Oh, look at my African-American over here. Look at him.” "you have to take out their families" "very fine people"

[@CodyLDaniels]

There needs to be some kind of crowd fund raising to get both of these guys on as many of the top popular podcasts as possible, I'd donate for sure. The playing of devil's advocate is wonderful when either of these men do it. Trying repeatedly to reinforce arguments they clearly don't agree with is one of the things that makes them so great.

[@rnicole846]

I've been wondering if we are all believing a false idealogical goal that it is possible to live in a world without racism or other types of prejudice. Maybe this is contrary to human nature and all people have various prejudices that effects their behavior.

[@jonron4942]

Glenn Loury is the man.

[@christiansgrignoli3351]

This was hilarious.. getting the reaction..haha

[@heimdallsgate6141]

You guys are definitely I.D.W.edit.(listened to your last three shows together in a row just now)

[@DefSquadFan]

I like how John McWhorter at 39:16 had a mini stroke.

[@philibusters]

My thoughts: 0:52 Are Glenn and John part of the “Intellectual Dark Web”? Not really. Glenn and John have built a decent following, but its not like the dark web. Lets break that term down "Intellectual"--Glenn and John are intellectuals, so there is no issue there. "Dark" John was recently on the Colbert show and Glenn has decent visibility. Granted their views are not that well publicized, but dark is too strong of a word. "Web"--there really is not a web involved. Glenn and John have a following, but other than KZbin comment sections like this, we don't really interact with each other and definitely don't mobilize into action like the dark web does with the very far right. 8:16 The Starbucks incident and other racist affronts I once heard John say he has only experienced racism a half dozen times or so. However, if you listen back through the 6 years he has appeared on the Glenn show he probably has cited a dozen or two dozen incidents in which he has experienced microaggression. The Starbucks incident, the gym incident in NJ, and the hotel incident that occurred in my current town of Newport News are all examples of injustice in the world. Society still has a ways to go. But society had come a long way. If 1865 represents slavery and one end of a continuum and the other end of the continuum in represented by a society in which race plays a minimal roles in the opportunities people have than society has finished a good bit of the trip while still having some ways to go. 15:25 John: Microaggressions can’t keep me down Good for John--though I don't quite believe John that the microaggressions don't bother him. I think to use a term that Glenn likes to use John is "bluffing" to some extent. That said, John is tough enough and mature enough that despite microaggressions and the annoyance he may or may not feel, he is still able to be productive. 24:33 Glenn says his ideological opponents know they’re holding a losing hand I think Glenn is just flat out wrong on this point. When Al Sharpton lied about the police officer he was bluffing. By contrast when Coates writes articles he believes it in my opinion. I think he really thinks the U.S. is filled with racism. He has been trained to find it everywhere. Glenn is sympathetic to conservative Christians and would never say that the fact that they see God everywhere makes them insincere. I am an agnostic who leans towards atheism, but I don't doubt for a second, that those Christians are being sincere even if I think they are mistaken. If I am not convinced that they are harmed from their mistake, a lot of purpose driven people that I really admire are devout Christians and I think they get some of the purpose from the fact that they really believe God has a special plan for them. 33:27 Glenn: Ta-Nehisi Coates wrote a “racist screed” about Kanye My big problem with Coates is that he ignores the great suffering of the poor blacks in inner cities and instead focuses on identity issues like the relationship of the black community with the police and microaggression. He is very middle class and not empathetic. I pretty much know that Coates wouldn't give my opinions on race as a white person a second thought because I am a white person. In the same way that Glenn often hesitates to call Trump racist, I don't Coates is malevolent towards white people at all. He'll be the first to tell you that his focus is not on white people, that is not what he thinks about--which is pretty much the same criticism Glenn and John have of Trump with black people--he just doesn't care. Granted Coates probably does care about white people more than he would like to admit. In fact his disdain for white people even seems a little fake--if you really didn't care wouldn't you be out trying to help poor black communities rather than telling us how f'ed up we are? The thing is Coates is for the most part a good decent person. To use a term that is very popular now, he just very tribal. 43:36 What was Kanye trying to say about slavery? I think Kayne was trying to say that African Americans continue to live in mental slavery. That said, he didn't define mental slavery and it was just really sloppy. Because he was so sloppy, nobody can really defend him, because there is no way to know for sure what he was trying to say. 50:39 Trump as rapper Sure. Makes sense to me. 56:15 Has Trump done anything for black Americans? He has taught them some perspective. They no longer think George W. Bush is a modern day version of Bull Connor. To any linguist fans out there, why does it feel right to use the term African Americans in some contexts and blacks in other? Is there an implicit rule that I just cannot decipher. I don't know what that rule would be, but I just know some sentences seem more natural with one or the other.

[@mayainverse9429]

Trump has done more for black americans than Obama did in 8 years. I really don't understand the hatred of trump by blacks. as far as I am aware he has never said a single bad thing about blacks. and even other races for the matter. the one and only group he has a issue with is ILLEGALS. perfectly fine with latino legal citizens. but I mean I guess that plays into what you said about mental slavery. the overloards call Trump a sexist racist islamaphobic homophobic so they all believe it and take it in. you are a African American if you are actually from Africa. its pretty stupid calling someone an African American if their ancestors are from Africa because if you go far enough back 100% of the human race comes from Africa so that makes no sense. also there are white people who immigrated from South Africa who are vastly more African than 99% of blacks in this country.

[@Sinner-man]

funny story as a manager i got a customer complaint that this crazy white supervisor was making fun of a black employee and she wanted him to be fired. She heard him speaking like an African so she was appalled. I had to explain that he grew up in South Africa all his life and had only been in the states a few years. He had to come talk to her for an extended length before she would concede that he "might" be African.

[@philibusters]

I do not agree that Trump has done more for black Americans than Obama did. Trump's main claim to helping black people is that black unemployment rates are hitting all time new lows. However in terms of the economic prosperity over the last 8 or so years that culminated in these numbers, the majority of it occurred during Obama's tenure. In terms of other things, I think Obama did a lot more for black people. He did the race to the top initiative which resulted in about a dozen states initiating much needed reform that helped struggling schools (including schools that were predominantly white and schools that were predominantly black). Compared to Trump he had more black people in prominent positions. He pushed criminal law reform designed to make the law more equitable for different offenses. He had some failures. I don't think he really was able to improve the race conversation. If anything the conversation got more dumbed down and now Ta-Nehsi Coates and others with similar views have kind of shaped a lot of the narrative. When Gates was arrested outside his own house, Obama invited both him and the police officer who arrested him to the White House for a beer with the intention that both parties can talk and explain what they are seeing. Now Coates and similarly minded people don't see any room for discussion or conversation---they want to have a one sided competition and one sided conversations may feel good if you feel you have been aggrieved, but they don't actual solve a lot of problems.

[@philibusters]

In terms of your dislike of the term African American I understand your point, but don't agree with it. I don't agree with it because everybody understands that when you say African American you are referring to somebody who likely can trace back between 30% to 100% of their DNA to sub-Saharan Africa. African American is technically two words in the same sense ice cream is two words but it really at this point in our brains is one word. And just like ice cream is not actually "ice" (unless it got melted and refroze) African Americans were not born in African, but when we conceptually think of African Americans we think of just one concept--a black person in the U.S. Read John McWhorters book Words on the Move for a dozen examples of the where two words equal one concept in our language. I don't have any issues with the term black Americans either but I will point out, if one applied the same logic to it that you applied to the term African Americans the term will also flunk the test. For example John McWhorter is brown, not black. He is probably somewhat bi-racial. For the sake of argument lets say he is 22% of European ancestry and 78% of African ancestry. I use those numbers because according to the NY Times writer Nicholas Wade that is the median in the African American community. The thing is John's children will be around 60% of European ancestry and a light biege color, yet we will likely still call them African Americans or black for the most part (though they will also be called bi-racial). In other words terms don't have to make literal sense as long as everybody in society understands what a person is referring to.

[@AnthonyDavidsound]

Great talk

[@mathish1477]

Mind opening!

[@StoneBearMan]

35:57 "kerfuffle" Awesome. So honored you gentlemen are appropriating my Gaelic culture. Tally-ho, Sir Knights, Tally-ho!

[@teaseaboywonder]

"Anyone who is listening that thinks I have some motives other than the ones I have stated can go straight to hell." Like him or not. Agree with his views or not. The integrity of Glenn Loury is to be admired.

[@kellyowens1868]

These guys give me a resonant sounding board, to see if my take on issues, {sometimes racial issues, as well}, is too far of base. Sometimes it's them, but it's usually me, Who's singing off-key. La la la Rey no so.... KOut

[@aidanbean252]

The masters return

[@jjroseknows777]

Scott Adams said that when he found out that his name was not mentions as a "member" of what is called The Intellectual Dark Web. He then said he was not in a hurry to get himself mentioned on that list and he also said that he refuses to call it that and instead he calls it The Free Thinkers. I like that! He doesn't want groups coalescing around anything that can so easily be characterized as some kind of evil.

[@delailama736]

My poker analogy that I think fits is it's heads up between the final two at the World Series final table and "the left" has an overwhelmingly large stack of chips and they are going all in on every hand pre-flop and unbeknownst to the person with the smaller stack ("the right" or the "anti-social justice") they have the best hand 90% of the time but they are afraid to play any because to lose one hand will throw them out of the tournament. And every time the "anti-social justice" player folds, he is losing his blinds and his chip stack is growing weaker. "The left" can lose a fair few hands and still have a chip lead. They aren't bluffing, they are bullying.

[@paulalaflamme3207]

I think what Kanye meant to say was very similar to the stuff you guys say. He was talking about holding onto the slavery thing for 400 years. Embracing it daily right now.

[@ahighhorseman]

These conversations have been a little touch of hope for me lately.

[@kkampy4052]

C'mon people, 33k views and only 719 likes. We need to do better to get the word out.

[@RCCarDude]

Glenn Loury is so fucking smart.

[@nickadt]

If Coates (et al) is losing can GL stop fucking talking about him now?

[@0r14n583lt]

I use my blackness to test the intelligence of those I encounter daily.

[@heimdallsgate6141]

TheHedge wow sweet strategy. I do the same thing but I am southern so it is called playing "country dumb" for me. When you can use the soft bigotry of low expectations against people u gain great insight.

[@jjroseknows777]

Sometimes I am shocked that what should seem most intelligent and most (hopefully) normal is almost never done. If you are knocking on someone's door why don't you say your name so that the person inside doesn't have to give her presence away to find out who's that knocking on the door at, say, 2 in the morning??!! And I say if I want to avoid an ambiguous situation where the person is trying to figure out who you are - Why not present yourself in all your raging glory,"Hi I'm John, I'm here as a panelist on the panel being held in an hour. Am I iin the right place??!!"

[@wallacehowery6414]

Loury's restaurant story: could have been a simple mistake, and I've gone into a black barbershop before, that was basically empty, and told I couldn't get a haircut. The racism goes both ways.

[@rymara1]

Doing for Americans is doing for black Americans. We are not a separate tribe. The idea that black people can't do for themselves is a lie, the evidence is obvious, look around. If black Americans want the inner cities improved we need to stop putting Democrats in charge of them. And a whole lotta taking personal responsibility needs to happen.

[@TDawg736]

LOL @ 39:25 -- sounds like Ricky Ricardo. Great laff.

[@jessiej1746]

What in the world is a toot court?!

[@blurrylights6344]

From French: tout court meaning no addition or qualification; simply.

[@jimmylemessurier332]

Yes gentlemen you are indeed members of the Intellectual Dark Web even though you may not know it. And that great movement will benefit greatly from your presence. A change is a'coming!

[@sifridbassoon]

I always wondered why I was supposed to give a s**t about what the Dixie Chicks thought about Bush. They were country/western singers (and I like c/w music).

[@TommySleeze]

Very interesting conversation! Quick question re: Apartheid. Is the collaboration theory a function net positive African migration to South Africa all throughout apartheid? Or are we assuming this was just a function of second class citizenry in comparatively wealthy South Africa was materially better than citizenship in the surrounding countries?

[@drumminham]

No-one has a right to a place in a private business.

[@djobokuwali4316]

The Kanye comment was designed to elicit two reactions from "slavery was a choice." The first, ringing true with conservatives is the hyper-individualistic mentality that you "pull yourself up by the bootstraps," and break off your mental chains of slavery (a great technique for poor white folks who refuse to believe they're victims in any circumstance). The second, ringing false with liberals, is that slavery was of course NOT a choice, and based on extending the analogy to present day, no, black people's oppression aren't due to some racist undertones of inherent laziness, accepting inferiority etc.

[@msorsky1]

If I were racist, and semi-intelligent, I would serve the black folk before the other folk... Get them outa' there. I think more often than not, people are just plain rude. Black white or purple.

[@gg_rider]

Loved the talk. Brief comment. I *thought* the Starbucks incident seemed staged for political effect, pre-planned. 1. Two men began by telling manager "I'm not buying anything." I doubt they would have been noticed if not. 2. The interaction slowly escalated 3. They were asked to leave .. rebellious non-paying non-customers. 4. When police asked them to PLEASE just leave, they were terrified. 5. Yet they refused to obey. That's a known form of activist protest, trying to get arrested. 6. They were immediately defended by the local white SJW in the coffee shop. 7. Still refused to leave .. or buy. 8. After they were handcuffed, there friend, the Real Estate investor who was hitting them, arrived. Was he actually a real estate investor? Or maybe a social justice warrior playing the role of Investor.

[@paulalaflamme3207]

Trump and Kanye are rhetorical clods. I'd love to hear what you're thinking about NK and Iran now? Other than Tulsi, and maybe Bernie and Warren, maybe, I don't know of any pol who would have had the nerve NOT to bomb Iran after they shot down our drone.

[@maximusgroves]

I'm very confident Kanye West's comment "400 years of slavery... that sounds like a choice" refers to present-day ideology and self-identity and not the actions of anyone's ancestors. Great conversation.

[@petitio_principii]

I see why you'd want to believe it.

[@pdumpsterful]

Kanye was exactly right. Try love!

[@danielensor2196]

I am multi tasking, watchinh you for another hour while The Great Escape is on. Steve and I will take both of you on in a mortal Combat of coolness. We win. He is room temperature. Having fully transitioned, bitches.

[@zeroun92]

The economy alone changed my opinion on him. I read his 100 day plan and immediately thought eh... Andrew Johnson didn't kill us, we could tale Trump. He's been surprising me ever since for the good.

[@theengineered1949]

Who wanna start a go fund me to get them nicer cameras?

[@keenanweind1780]

One more thing, and then we'll get to Kanye...

[@TheVietnameseDevil]

“iNtElLeCtUaL DaRk WeB” yeah, no thanks. spot the difference, kids.

[@mentalmachete2273]

This is 2018. 2020 Dr. Loury is Papa Smurf.

[@elizabethbennet4791]

huge problem in and of itself: that what Kanye had to say was the "news of the week". this troubles me as much as cops shooting unarmed black men

[@khatharrmalkavian3306]

19:17 - I love the way you put that. I kind of take that stuff as something like a background radiation of human weakness and ignorance. Someone like that gets a kind of begrudging pity from me. They don't understand what's wrong with what they're doing. I think it's something that will fade over time if we can keep the channels of communication open and cooperate with one another instead of fueling this idiotic political tribalism. Radicalizing over trivial incidents is just a way of announcing to the world that you don't know how to interact with other people. tl;dr - People suck. Expect it. Be patient. Try to be less sucky. P.S. - I should clarify that you should definitely fight against that kind of idiocy when it actually matters. Don't let people push you down based on their ignorance or etc. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying, "Choose your battles!"

[@bronxkies]

I'm struggling to understand how Trump is deeply racist.

[@jamesclement8985]

This is my first time really watching Glen (or is it Glenn) Loury. I have to ask, is he always this hysterical? He seems like he is on the cusp of breaking down. I don't think I can keep watching.

[@TheSunship777]

Can't judge the Starbucks incident based on other incidences and claim microaggression as a possible cause. How about the biases between white people in favor of blacks in a similar situation ? That particular bias is a fear of Blacks, right?. Affirmative Action, in my opinion, had a good ideal but degenerated into a fear . It was not supposed to be a lowering of standards. "Open the door and give me a chance" , yes, but stay the course, improve it, and perhaps it has but not always.

[@DefSquadFan]

37:46 was a little creepy as well.

[@samij6071]

Glenn saying JOHN talks too long??? Cute

[@danielensor2196]

Time seems more of a factor...illusion, I have been diagnosed with advanced, inoperable prodtate cancer, though no proof it is in dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones, all hear the music of our lord, oh lordy!

[@charlesekokotu]

Glenn was right, Trump is right about the economy

[@Insert639]

37:46 Oh dear! haha.

[@ChollieD]

YES OF COURSE, you guys are part of the Intellectual Dark Web. You're in this (white) guy's diet of IDW content, and your contribution is very much appreciated, professors. Thank you! P.S. The excellent IDW piece by Bari Weiss, mentioned by John early in the show: www.nytimes.com/2018/05/08/opinion/intellectual-dark-web.html

[@aaronkindsvatter9470]

lol thanks gents

[@petitio_principii]

"So let's talk for one hour about the ridiculous thing that was everyone talking about that thing for a week".

[@Unclebigcats]

37:48 Too funny

[@gremgreene2725]

Glen has to be appreciated too but my goodness John tolerates him. He can’t be fully serious.

[@ThePastrypride]

I'm surprised John has fallen for the "arrested while being black line." The video tells us nothing about the interaction between the two men and the Starbucks manager. Furthermore, the chief of police reported that the two men spoke denigratingly to the police, insulting them for earning low salaries. Is it so unlikely that when the manager told them the bathroom was for paying customers only, they gave her a bit of attitude and she overreacted? Clearly she made the wrong decision, as Glenn says. But there's no evidence this was racial. I'm not saying it wasn't. But I am saying we don't know.

[@hejla4524]

Me too. though I think the manager was simply and quite rightly following company policy. The rules are for everyone. Also found Glenn and John's examples of so called micro aggressions unconvincing. In John's case the lady could have been expecting a technician to arrive and Glenn being ignored by waiters is a common experience of all races. I think what a lot of blacks from the United States don't get is that 99 per cent of whites are not interested in or ever discuss the color of people's skin, while blacks, including the rich and well educated, are all too ready to pull out the race card when things don't go their way. Maybe we now need the term 'nano aggression'.

[@gremgreene2725]

Mcwhorter tolerates Glenn’s nonsense.

[@Nia-zq5jl]

T

[@TheVietnameseDevil]

🔺🔺

[@keenanweind1780]

Ben Carson is only underqualified for a position as HUD Secretary, as his particular expertise has nothing to do with housing. But as an eminent surgeon, he is FAR from unintelligent, although I will agree that he is less than charismatic...

[@Krazie1nyc]

Well as far as his temperament is concerned, I would imagine to successfully separate conjoined brains one would need to be as laid back as he seems to be. But yes, I agree, Ben Carson truly is a paragon. I don't believe anyone has made the achievements he has as of yet.

[@Malignus68]

Anyone else kinda get sick of Glenn Loury's yelling? Maybe I should just stick to what he's written.

[@KTravRuNEr]

He’s not yelling. He’s passionate . If you can’t handle that - go read.

[@Malignus68]

@@KTravRuNEr If you're implying that John McWhorter is less passionate because he's doesn't yell, you're in the wrong place.

[@KTravRuNEr]

J L N didn’t say a word about Mcwhorter. You read into that.

[@HistroryOnics]

Oh Glenn Loury jealousy is an ugly color on you.

[@devoteeofgeorgesmiley7184]

Another Kokaine Loury and his Trained Puppy, Johnny Mac. Another Whine Session about Ta-Nehisi Coates.

[@habeebahkolleff9721]

They are totally wrong about Ta-Nehisi Coates. Coates is more brilliant than both of these men