What is the "black experience"? | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter [The Glenn Show]

[@M2Capital01]

As a current black undergrad student from an impoverished background these men have changed my life.

[@alfarouqaminufor3892]

Reading Thomas Sowell, Glenn loury, John mcwherter Is very liberating.

[@heewee6608]

WHAT? RAMEMBA DA White man is keeping u down sell out shoe shiner lol kidding good 4 u kid

[@timflelter5566]

@@heewee6608 racist

[@flowstategmng]

Glenn Loury is an absolutely astounding orator. I constantly find myself in awe at his vocabulary and gravitas. Spectacular.

[@benkakanfo1577]

Okay, I need to listen to these lads more. signed - child of an educated class Nigerian. Class discussions interest me.

[@k3nn3thinatl]

I could, and do, listen to these two brilliant gentlemen talk for hours and hours.

[@donarkell]

You guys are great. Always look forward to hearing your discussions.

[@jeremybentham5037]

Thomas Sowell's three questions: Compared to what? At what cost? What empirical evidence do you have?

[@devoteeofgeorgesmiley7184]

Doc Sowell has two introductions to his three questions: 1. Where's my money? 2. Did you stash it in the appropriate offshore dummy bank accounts as so ordered?

[@ib3scope]

Devotee of George Smiley What do you mean by 'introductions'? As, say, a preface for the following three? Care to elaborate, at your leisure.

[@deathbycognitivedissonance5036]

@@devoteeofgeorgesmiley7184 Your remark is exactly why these things never get solved.

[@dancedoctor2]

You guys really have made me realize how I've been failing in maintaining rational distance in political topics as well as civility and charity for the 'other side', so thank you.

[@xmikex902x]

When John raises his eyebrows after a fierce rant/statement by Glenn. Lol this is easily one of my favorite podcasts out there, and I drop what I’m doing to listen to these when they arrive.

[@ianstikeleather4523]

"I want you to get mad at me" - glenn is preaching.

[@RotemEren]

The Glenn show at 1080p? Like Dylan gone electric!

[@workinprogress008]

Love the energy you guys bring. :)

[@robw1945]

One of my new favorite podcasts. Glenn and John keep up the good work!

[@benjaminperez969]

If Prof. Loury could get as many interviews with Bill Maher as Michael Eric Dyson has, if for every minute of Real Time air time that (the three-named) Michael Eric Dyson has had Dr. Loury could likewise have, then that could help well-meaning white liberals think more deeply about how very often shallow white liberal thinking on race/racism/blackness/anti-blackness too often really is.

[@karlmarx809]

Benjamin Perez Bill Maher has had plenty of black conservatives on. Give it a rest.

[@benjaminperez969]

Troy Barnes, I might be mistaken (I've seen each episode of Maher's show-indeed, I greatly enjoy his show; in fact, I'm a fan), but I'm pretty sure that Maher has never conducted one of his one-on-one interviews with a black conservative. Yes, he sometimes has one on his panel. But that's not the same thing. And that's what I mean by "interview."

[@nicmart]

Black conservative and Black intellectual are not the same.

[@benjaminperez969]

Sometimes they are, and sometimes they are not. (Thomas Sowell is both; Larry Elder is the former but not the latter.) Food for thought: "White liberal and white intellectual are not the same."

[@nicmart]

I entirely agree.

[@polybian_bicycle]

Thank you Glenn Loury for this piece and for reinstating the position of a person, such as myself, that believes in the universality of humanity that is being hounded literally a racist online for holding it.

[@inotaishu1]

That is what I am puzzled about as well, what is this „black experience“ or the „black perspective?“ Or at the very least: is it something positive? Because of what I experienced so far this “experience” and “perspective” seems to be based on nothing but constant anguish, fear and hatred.

[@patricktoday4391]

Let’s get these two Gents on Rogan

[@GoCanes2001]

Joe Rogan would be completely lost with these two. He’s a moron.

[@patricktoday4391]

GoCanes2001 While that’s probably true the episode won’t be about Rogan. It’ll be about the other who need to hear them. Rogan would just be the vehicle

[@GoCanes2001]

Patrick Today Now that you mention it, to get more people on to these guys, yeah, I agree. I didn’t even know about them until like a month ago. I’ve been binge watching as much Glenn Loury as I can and I’ve ordered a couple of his books. I absolutely love that dude.

[@kellz1953]

I adore you two and am a loyal listener/watcher of your dialogues.

[@glennloury3677]

Thanks, my friend...

[@philibusters]

My thoughts on the topics below: 00:00 Does John have “light skinned” privilege? : I think it is a good question. As a white person I am not in a great position to have gather data, but my instinct is that it may have some influences at the margin. 08:33 Why marrying out-of-race is a loaded issue in the black community : I worked at Wal-Mart when summer after my sophomore year at college. I saw a lot of black men with white women. Both the black men and white women were working class poor (though their living conditions were nowhere near inner city tough). In this poorer working class atmosphere (Great Mills, Maryland) which was mixed race (at least in certain neighborhoods) with a lot of black, white, and Asians, I felt I fit in less because I was middle class and in college, rather than based on my race. If I had wanted to date an black or Asian girl it would have been hard for me because I didn't have the social etiquette down, not necessarily because of my race. In fact, base on my experience (although its fairly limited), working class communities that are fairly mix are more accepting of interracial relationships than middle and upper middle class neighborhoods. This, despite the fact, that these neighborhoods probably produce 100X times the non-PC race comments that an upper middle class neighborhood. In fact, I can relate one story of a working class white guy (Wal Mart employee), who told me a racist and ignorant story about black people, then after telling me the story went over to a group of black people and hung out with them. His story dealt which went into some detail was about black people being lazy and living off of welfare. But back to my original point, I am not sure marrying out of race is a huge issue for parts of the black community. Definitely for the black intelligentsia, but maybe not for everybody. 25:58 How anger at structural racism becomes blinding: I am not going to criticize Tricia Rose because I think being human is to be blind. If I am completely honest, when I hear Tricia Rose talk, I don't think I probably give her a fair shake. Granted I think there are differences between Tricia Rose and myself and it goes to a different point John often makes. For a certain set of people including Tricia Rose anti-racism is a religion. My views on race in my opinion are not a religion. Yuval Noah Harari in his book Sapiens, which I highly recommend, talks about non-theistic religions. He doesn't use the example of the anti-racism movement, but I think if you use Harari's criteria (and he does set out a criteria), you could easy fit the anti-racism movement under it. 33:27 John: What makes black oppression in 20th century America unique? : It is not a unique scenario, but there have been ethnic groups that have been oppressed out of existence before. So my question to John is even if blacks are not in a unique situation---does it matter if they are being oppressed. John makes it sound like every other ethnic group has prospered, but that simply is not true. How about Native Americans for example. 42:08 Why identity built around victimhood is the modern way: I have read "Between the World and Me" and watched "Get Out". "Between the World and Me" was meh. It is probably not as bad as John thinks, but it wasn't deep either. Coates tried to be reflective and deep. For the most part I thought he was honest. "Get Out" was okay too but I don't think it deserved the monster accolades it received. I thought a show that really was deep was "The Wire". Definitely would recommend that one! Glenn and John talk about underdevelopment all the time--yet they never talk use "The Wire" to illustrate their point which is a shame because The Wire really helped me conceptualize the disadvantage that people in inner city communities face! Shame on Glenn. Shame on John. I have found that it is difficult to talk to a black person about race when there is substantial disagreement in your positions. My impression is its a moral issue for black person and it makes it hard for them to compromise. Compromise and reaching a synthesis of two views isn't that hard for me on race because the subject matter is not as sensitive to me and definitely not as morally imbued. The risk of debate is not that great for me, if somebody disagrees, it will annoy me a little, but won't bother me that much. Its different for some black people--just a more sensitive subject. 55:20 Roseanne Barr and the significance of punching up or down Roseanne's comment were indefensible. She deserved to be reprimanded. No question about it. That said, there are other people who deserve to be reprimanded.

[@michaelcasey7057]

I like John. Glenn however is becoming one of my very favorite people. I've been reading/listening to him for some years. I still have almost no idea what he thinks. Except perhaps that the proof of this pudding must be in the eating. One thing I feel confident about is that he knows what he thinks. Although he is speaking extemporaneously, the content of his speech is not occurring him in the moment. His is a voice that must be heard.

[@just_another32]

Plus he is excellent at playing devil's advocate and very entertaining in doing so!

[@markcounseling]

I love these guys so much

[@kkampy4052]

I have so much to do but I cannot stop listening. I think it does a great disservice to kids to tell them they cannot succeed in this country because someone out there will to let them. Tell them you can do whatever you want and that you may run across people who might try to get in their way.

[@patrickdonovan5507]

Great content always! I also enjoy looking up various vocabulary I run into.

[@codex3048]

"people with three names" -- funny!

[@libertywilly2417]

I need cliff notes gentlemen..but I do enjoy the conversations.

[@xmikex902x]

More viewers, plz. Great conversation, as usual, guys.

[@mikegray8776]

Tricia Rose. John is absolutely right - the woman is anger on a stick. Anyone doubting this should watch the full 90min KZbin video following Glenn’s Boston article about the Michael Brown/BLM fallout (circa 2016). Search for Watson Institute Loury Rose. She sits on a panel in opposition to Glenn’s position with 2 other protagonists. Her demeanour throughout is barely under control, as she hardly listens to any opposing views, and fusses constantly with her hair and her notes, whilst presumably rehearsing the next stream of bile. And even then - as now - gentleman Glenn maintains his civility and dignity, and refuses to return her abrupt personal attacks. An utterly intense, dyspeptic and irredeemably humourless individual.

[@GamingBlake2002]

I think there are two key potential problems with victimhood mentalities: 1) If you believe that you're constantly at risk of being persecuted, no matter how unlikely that is to actually happen, you risk unnecessary paranoia, at best, and a potential grandeur of delusion, at worst. There's certainly an attractive element of being (or, at least, looking like) a victim, since the value of your opinion will be elevated in the eyes of others as a correction for the alleged unjustice enacted against you, even if there was no such injustice and your claim to victimhood is baseless. 2) You can justify being nasty to other people under the guise of "punching up." While there are certainly _many_ valid instances of punching up, if the only people you interact with on a day-to-day basis are ordinary, everyday people, you're not punching up, you're punching across, and not even thinking twice about it. If you think that makes you a valiant underdog whose "fighting the system," you are deeply confused.

[@j.c.anderson877]

My guys!!! Back at it again!!!

[@annarboriter]

I usually stop listening to videos with shouting due to the cringe factor, but this discussion kept me focussed and appreciative.

[@No_Avail]

That certain "inability to hear" your counterpoints and take them as they are articulated, hits the nail on the head. Another case of storytelling or meta-narratives trumping facts and reasons on the ground.

[@thomassimmons1950]

Two great Americans!

[@realityweasel8461]

God damn, Glenn goes on an epic rant for a solid twenty minutes

[@jenningsbradford2448]

I call it Glenn's version of Bill Cosby's Pound Cake speech.

[@kellyowens1868]

Not an odd choice of words, for a person, who calls himself a weasel. KOut

[@devoteeofgeorgesmiley7184]

Well, like Mr. Jello, Doc Loury has a criminal record of abusing women.

[@kellyowens1868]

Instead of a bridge with an ogre under it, It's a bowler hat with a troll under it. KOut

[@masterllama321]

It is the Glenn show, after all

[@Anonymous6225]

At the end talking about Joy Reid's comments: there seems to be a thing today where people are completely unable to be content with who they are unless people around them are either silent or vocally supportive of how they live their life. I think once upon a time it was more acceptable to be able to just shrug off what people think if you can see that you aren't physically hurting them, harassing them or they aren't physically hurting or harassing you.

[@burleybater]

That right there. "You're going to force me to lie! To make yourself feel better. Grow up." My dish pan hands are applauding as you speak. Sure I can say, as a (whatever the hell I'm supposed to be) but decidedly hetero, that I am a rabid fan of Douglas Murray. I have not the slightest twinge about his preferences, because he is infinitely more interesting to me regardless of what he chooses to do behind a private door. And there it is. And at the risk of signalling virtue all over the godamned place, I was also that weird kid who read James Baldwin at the age of 11 (my mother left his books lying around the house) and who of course avidly read all the naughty bits first, and when I got tired of that, went back to the beginning of the book to find out what it was all about - and even though I did not understand it then, some understanding began to grow inside of me. Moral, ethical and aesthetic preferences are nuanced within human experience in possibly more variables than stars in the sky. Tyrannizing over that is a big job, but apparently someone has got to do it. I say nuts to that, and gracious good luck. I recall a child's meltdown over desperately needing to be just liked - let alone loved. The skin does grow thicker with age. And nothing in life can weird me out quite the way somebody can, not only trying to read just my thoughts, but the beating of my truest heart. That kind of tyranny betrays a pure psychological crapstorm. Mercy.

[@AnthonyDavidsound]

Look forward to these every week or whatever your timeline is lol

[@karennorris7880]

Professor Loury, I’ve written about this before (My support for Colin Kaepernick’s protest) but I’ll just add a little bit to my earlier points. First of all, the countries with the strongest, or most vibrant, democracies in the world, USA and France, also have the strongest tradition of protest. Secondly, protest is the very essence of freedom. Yes, we are Romans in Rome, if life is only 80% good, and we see or feel an injustice, why wouldn’t we have the right to protest for that other 20%? It is more harmful to try to take away someone’s right to protest, than to counterprotest. We don’t have to agree with the protestors, but much bigger and much more important than our agreement, is the individual’s right to protest as he or she sees fit, as long as it doesn’t impinge on someone else’s freedom. This seems personal to you because you think Kaepernick is saying something about the state of blackness in America that you don’t agree with, and here you are exercising your right to counterprotest. That’s fine. Did you begrudge people protesting the Vietnam War, or the Feminist Movement or the Pro-choice and Pro-life protesters their rights? Why would you wish to curtail the rights of athletes? You note that some white athletes also joined in and I confess, I bought some Nike gear myself in solidarity. If you don’t have freedom of speech, then your freedom is worthless and you might as well live in a totalitarian country. Note: I usually buy Under Armour workout clothes, they’re much, much, much better. The one pair of Nike shorts I bought fell apart. ;-)

[@SvenErik_Lindstrom3]

"You are a citizen of Rome. IN ROME!" :D Brilliant!

[@russelld2925]

Not enough people are watching this. These conversations should be required listening in every grade school of the country.

[@ridesharegold6659]

I just googled John. First hit was his wiki page, 2nd was "podcast", 3rd was "parents."

[@mentalmachete2273]

Probably one of my favorites from the Gods, even with the malfunctions.

[@cassandras7399]

It’s just a pity that skin colour is such a hot topic for political reasons atm; I thought 20 years ago we were getting past this, and enjoy your discussions; thank you and kudos.

[@jackdeniston9326]

We don't need to beat or neglect our children

[@tmjmccormack]

I want to “watch” but I don’t see the point in uploading video that doesn’t work. Am I missing something? All choppy and hard to watch.

[@vfwh]

14:35 I'm pretty sure that the extent to which the "shouldn't marry outside the race" trope exists in Asian and Jewish communities is not rooted in an internalization of inferiority.

[@newmediarules]

If you asked some Asian men about the mentality of some Asian women, they would disagree with you.

[@vfwh]

I get your point.

[@justinmathis8078]

@@newmediarules depends on what you mean by “Asian”

[@Bolaniullen]

i like these shows they are very informative and i feel like i'm learning a new perspective a lot of the time when listening. But please for the love of god someone donate some decent microphones and teach these old farts how to set up a proper streaming setup. Streaming equipment sounds a lot more expensive than it actually is, you don't have get something from the top shelf for it to be many levels better than those corded iphone earbuds keep the shows coming ! // well wishes from sweden

[@buddinganarchist]

Why is Loury avoiding Cornel West? We need that debate.

[@karlmarx809]

buddinganarchist What specifically would the debate be about?

[@deathbycognitivedissonance5036]

That would be amazing.

[@petitio_principii]

I do agree with many things said here, but it steps a bit into a somewhat of a denier area. Majority-black schools even have classes on how to deal with cops, instructing them to be calm and non-confrontational and whatnot. It's somewhat hard to always phrase things in a balance between "there are awful structural and historic factors making things harder for blacks", and "individual responsibility matters", that does not sound like too neglectful of such factors, or denier of individual responsibility.

[@buybuydandavis]

They're missing one bit on racial double standards. They keep projecting racial double standards to make sense according to some universalist calculation, when the simpler explanation is the *lack* of universalism; the differing standards come from baseline racism of in group preference and out group attack.

[@joebednar6269]

99.98% of police officers do not fire their gun in the line of duty each year. Police use of force is an entirely different issue.

[@j94695martin]

As a listener who has only recently found you guys, I find the race issues quite interesting. I have been waiting decades for these issues to sort themselves out. No luck there. I see a black friend on Facebook who shares anything that underscores America's hatred of African Americans, and it seems that he and the other AA friends commenting are successful people but they frequently point out the racism of Trump, America, whites, and cops. I agree there is racism, but not every bad thing is a result of racism. And I worry for his beautiful granddaughters being raised to be victims and see the world through that lens.

[@karlmarx809]

Carla Denes But if you repatriate somewhere else you lose all the power associated with the American government. If you look at the demographics, whites are becoming a smaller and smaller percent so racial dynamics are going to change whether some white people want them to or not.

[@j94695martin]

Carla Denes Slavery was a product of pretty much every nation. Far more Africans went to the middle east but almost all died. Sorry you are consumed with hate for the nation that has done more for freedom than any nation in the history of the world.

[@vinceguaraldi2412]

Carla Denes “Ultimate separation from white people” lol you’re a white hardcore conservatives wet dream. I hope you feel better.

[@thebobsagetguy]

Carla Denes sorry no 40 acres for u :(

[@Priapos93]

Law enforcement has more targets than just POC, Glenn. Ask hippies and punks, and check if it goes double for people at the intersections. A black man who gives off the right social signals may even have better odds, depending on the bias of the police, but that doesn't make the policing just, in aggregate. Also, we get a video every few days, and sometimes for a few consecutive days, lately.

[@petitio_principii]

"Black experience" sounds like what could be part of a prog-rock band name, with mostly black musicians. Maybe "

[@agentorangechicago]

McWhorter around 29:00 says that Tricia Rose and her type of mindset is over represented in academia, especially as she goes on about the “unfettered whiteness in Santa Cruz.” Do others find that true? Here’s where Rose says that: www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/07.10.03/rose-0328.html

[@markbrownner6565]

am always surprised that there isn't a black athletes organization (nfl, nba, mlb) where they are pooling their resources for the betterment of their communities...and that idea could be expanded to the arts (actors directors musicians dancers)...where are they..??

[@edpowell4697]

Do please do a show on economics and linguistics. Maybe there's a new interdisciplinary field of economic linguistics. Just something other than race.

[@Loch1210]

“ And yes I married a white woman” All I need to know

[@liedersanger1]

Why the f don't you get someone, maybe even someone other than the three names, whose viewpoint is not yours, to engage with you? A serious question. Lowry works himself into a lather, and to me is very persuasive, but never meets any equally thoughtful inverse energy, and I suspect it is out there. Its but like listening to someone shouting into a wind tunnel. With a little whispering from McWhorter. Lowry usually paraphrases the other side, but Id like to hear them respond to his full challenge.

[@Lew105]

If you look up any male public figure or celebrity on google, the first autocomplete word is almost always "wife".

[@kellyowens1868]

+ Louis Konig + Is that a rephasing of the old, "Behind every good man, is a good woman.?" Please excuse the patriarchal preposition, but I think that is usually cast. Perhaps beside is a more accurate, less sexist way to look at it, but the intersectional feminists, need the oppressive positioning, to validate their existence. I bet they would prefer, "Underneath, or below ....every good man,...." KOut

[@Lew105]

It's just funny because Glenn got a good laugh about it as if it's unique to John, but they're both missing that it's probably the most common follow-up after the name of a public male figure. I believe your interpretation is correct regarding the phrase!

[@kellyowens1868]

Thanks, I forgot when I was trying to figure out, what you were on about, that with John, there is always, for blacks more than whites, I think, the complicating factor that his wife is white. Something that's not going to be found in the first sentence, or probably the first paragraph, of a basic bio. I think the recent casting of the genders as oppositional, oppressor/oppressed classes, by the radical feminists, & the cultural marxists, belies the traditional married couple, that has been the fundamental unit in this country, for the vast majority of it's history. Even after divorce has become all to readily available, those who divorce tend to remarry. I don't think it's for the home cookin', because few ladies these days learn how to cook more than the basics, and certainly don't relish {pun] it, for the most part. KOut

[@gamalielyoung8182]

explain the warrants in Ferguson MO Glenn ... I dare you to pull on that thread!?!!

[@Bornearth75]

Amen, amen, amen. Like, subscribe, share, go to patreon and become a patron. 💖

[@hejla4524]

It would have been interesting to discuss out-of-race marriage more deeply and the sort of pressures John and others have felt. I suspect that most of the criticism has come from blacks rather than whites. Given the Joy Reid controversy, it would have also been interesting to look at black anti-gay sentiment and how prevalent it is. Although John 'adores' Joy Reid (55:48), she didn't just attack gays only once, but repeatedly in her blogs and seemed keen to 'out' various celebrities and politicians. If this wasn't enough, when caught out, she claimed she had been hacked! kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKracn-urdx-b68 For a critical look at her journalism including her famous fake lynching story from 2015, view this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/mYbIgp2wbN6Vm80

[@ellalella1]

I think John underestimate how many who would google if he has a wife just because he is intelligent and attractive. I admit it, I could have done it but I don't remember doing it.

[@bad444]

A lot of what these men say is great and need to be hear. But just because they have a life of privilege to ignore racial inequality in treatment as the case from starbucks. I too agree that not all act against a black person is racist and social media make the problem over blown. But we should not sit on a tall horse and act as if black people in a country that had to change laws and the constitution to recognize black folks humanity is some virtuous place after 1965.

[@vinceguaraldi2412]

Sometimes I wonder why Glenn constantly switches between “African Americans” and “Blacks.” Maybe just out of habit?

[@ib3scope]

Vince Guaraldi 'Blacks', in terms of the race, writ-large, 'African-American', as pertaining to the specific ethnic subset of the black race, with a broadley homogeneous culture and genesis (debatable).

[@marleyjanim5033]

What's that painting above gleen?

[@ssevkin]

Looks like an Indian tapestry

[@adaku75]

Issues must be put into context. The issue specifically of John being married to a white woman is highly complex. Most sane people will say the black community is weak. Whenever a community is weak, one of the main institutions that must be reviewed is the family. The black family is weak due to male incarceration and the black man's lack of loyalty to black women. BM date out at double the rate of women. So of course black women and even some black men would have an issue with black men dating out. It is most certainly understandable for anyone from any ethnic background to fall in love with their friend or colleague from another ethnic background. But it is disingenuous to overlook the context of BM dating out especially dating the group of people who enslaved us. I am very happy to report that some black women are waking up and understanding there is no loyalty from most black men and they should indeed date and marry the person with the best character from any ethnic background. And more importantly, we are learning there is no longer a black community to fight for or be loyal to.

[@kellyowens1868]

Isn't the black community weakened by a culture that forsakes the power, the family brings, {73% out of wedlock births, & that raise is mirrored in welfare dependent whites as well.) When the State assumes,and is allowed to replace the strengths tradition families have. This includes the government, [THE STATE] use of the police, to instill discipline, because the family has dirupted by the support the STATE PAYS. There is never a free lunch.. KOut

[@kellyowens1868]

40+ currently. I hear that at a point in the late teens,or early 1920's, the OOW rate for blacks, was lower than, that of whites, although i've never seen the real figures on that one. I found it noteworthy, but not shocking in the least. The rough OOW rate for both races then, was below 20 % .If I could ask everyone a question, or an opinion on something. Every birth, is an individual, personal story, regardless of race. Many factors, personal, & national effect every birth. Some correlate the growth of the welfare state, with the break-down of the family, because the time lines run in unison, for most races. It just struck me that another factor for births, effects things as well.. Roe v. Wade, and legalized abortion, is at this same starting line, and ironically "The Pill." Do you have any opinions about how the O-O-W! rates might be affected by easy access to abortion today I guess it's a thought experiment. It's a world like ours, except abortion has never been invented, but all other things, birth control innovations, cultures, racism's irratic fluctuations, the civil rights movement, LBJ's "Great Society"programs, O.J, Rodney King + the riot, hispanic population increase, etc. etc. Everything else remains that same as it has been, it is medically impossible, to abort the fetus beings, in this other-world. Do you have ant thoughts on the OOW! rates? The personal,effects, or thinking that might play out, and why, etc. If you would like to go into any detail, you have a unique perspective, that I as a male, can onlt imagine. Would there be more marriages, or less unprotected sex, for example, or would the reactions be different among the races, and why? Thanks if you reply, or don't, I am only looking for a fuller understanding, and have no agenda, but a better country to live in for all. KOut

[@Gymbending]

I think it's criminal to tell kids that they were enslaved. Telling them that slavery existed should not be focused on American history without the context of African, Asian and European slavery. It's a reason that blacks tried to disassociate themselves with slavery after the civil war. They wanted that to be the past and not become their identity. But since the civil rights movement and the race for reparations, you have privileged blacks crying about slavery and mistreatment when they barely have any stories of white discrimination. They have to intellectualize it and nitpick in order to make a case. I'm from Mississippi and I have one story of racism and it had no effect on my life.

[@karlmarx809]

Nika D We want to save the black community so that when we point out that black people are being disproportionately profiled and killed by police, white conservatives can't point to the crime statistics and tell us it's all justified. There are many reasons to want to improve the standing of people who look like you in society.

[@UltimateCowBoyCat]

@@karlmarx809 Take away gang culture and teach values to your black youth.

[@pepsilamar3320]

church!

[@SteveMG500]

How much is the McWhorter/Loury "platform" on race accepted by or agreed upon (broadly speaking) "the" black community? Yes, there are all sorts of views on race and economics and politics among black Americans. There is no single view on such matters. But if we were to present the McWhorter/Loury "platform" versus the Coates/Dylson "platform" to black Americans and they voted on which agenda best represented their point of view, which side would win out? Again, I understand I am reducing complex matters to a sort of bumper sticker view. But I'd be interested in how black Americans, as a broad group, view the two worldviews.

[@jenningsbradford2448]

Interesting, maybe. Relevant, nope. It doesn't improve the position of black folk. We're still at the bottom. It's simply back and forth intellectual banter. McWhorter/Loury writes a book. Coates/Dyson critiques it (at times personally attacking the authors) and vice versa. It's circular and nothing changes as far as the black community is concerned. Just an intellectual pissing contest.

[@kellyowens1868]

+ Jennings Bradford, or anyone else who wishes to weigh in? + Both sides, as you put it, claim to identify the problems, and the causes, roughly, of those problems accurately. They ate not mutually exclusive, per se'. Which side to think more accurately assesses the problems, & their root causes? or do you see a more dominant causal factor? KOut

[@karlmarx809]

I don't think Coates is speaking to a black audience personally. Dyson certainly is. I honestly don't know enough about Loury or McWhorter.

[@kellyowens1868]

+ T B + Aren't you the young man who claimed I had nothing of substance to add. I least you were upfrontt enough, unlike most leftists, to admit, "I honestly don't know enough about Loury or Mcwhorter." Naturally that didn't give you pause, before you made your random personal insults, about folks that do. Thanks for your "added" wisdom though, and your unsolicited advice on what "others" should be doing. You are an intolerant, tolerant fellow, indeed. KOut

[@AstroSquid]

Asking the chat. Is black power white guilt?

[@petitio_principii]

A higher rate of abortion among black people is the wrong thing to point as a problem, as it's certainly avoiding things getting even worse, even if ultimately it's also symptomatic of something that is not really good.

[@karlmarx809]

Petitio Principii I think that was Glen's point. He's not upset at the abortions themselves but at what they represent. Symptom of a much larger problem (assuming his numbers were properly adjusted for socioeconomic status, of course).

[@bw3240]

I understand what you are saying but if each abortion leaves an emotional and mental scar upon the woman then would that not add to the issues of building up the family? Not carrying that trauma leaves room for far more productive characteristics.

[@ellalella1]

I think that most people regardless of race rather avoids a pregnancy from happening at all than have an abortion even though this abortion may be what is they deem as best at the time and isn't traumatic for the person. If you have good access to free or cheap birth control and knowledge how to use them properly people don't have as many abortions. If there are a lot of abortions in a group there is often a lack of access to birth control or knowledge how to use them or how to access them. If there are lots of abortion in the black group in the US that would suggest that is at least part of the problem.

[@gamalielyoung8182]

also explain the gun trace task force in Baltimore, MD Glenn? since you brought up those two cities ... y’all brothers are a little outta touch!?!!

[@kellyowens1868]

That technology is widely used in many cities, & has been for decades, What is your point, and why is Baltimore your example. All I know about Baltimore, is that it has a uniquely skyrocketing homicide rate, not seen in most other cities, over the last couple of years. Do you think that is explained, by the fact that they didn't have the "Shot Spotter" technology, like other municipalities do. It seems all cities should want any technology, that helps them prevent/combat/ reduce, violent crime, No? If not, why not? ...and why not Baltimore. Being in touch, should give you a perfect perspective. KOut

[@ElectronFieldPulse]

Do you just look for instances of possible racism and try to defind your whole life by them? That is a mental problem for you to deal with.

[@jshyoungblood]

Glen, as a black man with an advanced degree living in affluent neighborhoods, I can attest that it is NOT hysteryia, I am routinely followed, stopped and was even arrested after refusing (finally) to provide my id to a cop on the street. DUDE, you talk about empirical evidence but you dont do the work. I have never once heard Glen provide any empirical data that he researched himself in the field. You rely on the flawed numbers from a flawed system. My experience is across multiple areas and two states. This is where you lose on Cotes also. He says, "sure, I can behave as I am deserving all the privilege and rights of my social economic peers but a fool with an AA degree, a badge and a gun can end my life without repercussion. My body isnt safe." You may have been lucky enough to not have a system shock racist encounter where you feared for your life but once you do it changes you. So as you speak I just say "ok, ok brotha" and watch. And soon, watching from abroad.

[@frankiedehockie]

The occurrence of things do not explain why these things occurred. And Glen you tend to make that error. Example, high abortion rates between blacks and whites can simply be explain by the difference in access to contraceptives between blacks and whites. Those with higher access to contraceptives will have lower rate of abortion. To prove that the difference in abortion rates is due to cultural, than you have to also show that both groups have same and similar level of contraceptives.

[@kellyowens1868]

+ frankiewhatever + The access to contraceptives argument is a canard. In the wake of AIDS, condoms became ubiquitous, and virtually free. A large box of generic condoms, can be purchased by the sexually active, of either gender at nominal cost. If the the sexually active have the agency to have sex repeatedly, don't they have the responsibility to prepare for such activities, personally. 5 minutes of agency at the Walgreens, or the CVS, is not to much to expect. To imagine that wide swaths of the populace have significant hurdles to acquiring condoms or more ongoing forms of birth control is condescending, and inaccurate. It reminds me of the democratic party's contention that large numbers of POC have some impediment to getting photo/voting ID's. An idea the most blacks,[The real people, not political activists.] find ridiculous, and incredibly condescending. The activist left have abandoned the idea, once advanced by the mainstream democrat party ie Hillary, et al., that abortion should be rare. They have gone so far afield, as to sound like the are advocating for many more abortions, as if that is their goal. If you read this far down, I wonder what your thoughts are on planned parenthood, for they are the great state supported, purveyor of long running birth control, in addition to abortive services. Obviously PP is not found in every medium, and large city across the country. I'm not sure how many locations they operate, and how many of those offer the mammogram, services so widely touted by abortion proponents. Do you know? KOut

[@karlmarx809]

Kelly Owens I noticed that you right wingers can't stay on topic and before long you start rambling and ranting at the Democrats about other random issues. It is harder to get contraception (birth control, IUDs, etc.) when you're poor. These are considerations to be accounted for when making these assessments.

[@kellyowens1868]

If you set aside the personal attacks leftists are relegated to, & deal with the ideas, I will gladly "stay on topic". [maybe when I'm done with you, you could explain , in what way, I have left the subject unattended. KOut

[@kellyowens1868]

+ Troy not really Hellen + I admire you knowledge of women's reproductive options, and the hardships, some, who are below the poverty line, may face. Women, and specifically poor women, are indeed fortunate to have you to speak for them, on this issue. You seem to be the type of ALLY, that any group of fortunate, feminists. would be lucky to have taking up for them. While I would NEVER consider myself an ally of fortunate feminists, on any level, like yours, I wonder if you are the true ally of women, you purport to be. Unless things have changed dramatically, as they see to these days, in regards to sexual encounters, I thought responsibilities for birth control, and family planning, are shared by both partners, to one degree or another. You seem to absolve males of any responsibility, sexually, emotionally, and financially as well. Unlike some folks, who may be new to these sections, I refuse to assume that your gender plays any roll, in such an oversight. This is not the venue to assail the character of a respondent, even one who seems to relish in such intolerant behavior. Call me old fashioned, but a male partner should provide AT LEAST half of the financial burden, if not all of the financial costs, for the birth control , they have both decided is best for them. Given the choice, NOW, ....don't you agree? Is it your claim that an unwanted pregnancy is a less expensive option, for a woman without the means to spend on birth control. That is a picture, you have painted for us, I would rather not spend much time admiring, as you seem to. It is my impression, in fact, that the vast majority of women, who are in poverty, have access to medicare benefits, and federally subsidized birth control, as well as other women's health needs, through that program. Likewise the federal funds provided to Planned Parenthood, are meant to offset the costs these women, face, since none of those funds may be spent on your preferred outcome, the termination of an unwanted pregnancy. What kind of a womens ALLY advocates, as you seem to do, for a choice, that is no choice at all. So if women find themselves with out the means to provide birth-control for themselves, and their male partners not expected to meet their responsibility for being sexually active, you leave these women to choose between the option, & costs of costs of terminating, an unwanted pregnancy, or carrying the child to term, regardless of her emotional, social, or financial situation. I hesitate to advise anyone, what their best course of action is, unlike some in this thread, on behalf of ALL the women of america, rich or poor, strong or without power, of all races and religious beliefs, this may not be a subject, that NEEDS YOUR INPUT, if you would pardon my expression. You do not appear to have added much of substance, but frighteningly few alternatives for women, and their birth control options. ps. I hope this was as on topic as your male privilege allows you to be entitled to. Men! With an ALLY like you, women don't need as many real enemies. KOut

[@Bopcity1]

I truly appreciate the verbal dexterity exhibited in this discussion but I'm nonetheless astonished that these two worldly black guys are so determined to dismiss volumns of scholarship detailing the lengthening legacy of slavery.

[@opensprings]

McWhorter and Loury are both book smart and professionals in their respective fields, but these two gentlemen are NOT worldly, and their conversations give that away

[@ULTD8]

28:10 unfettered b/w ness

[@haakoflo]

Hypothetically, if all minority people had all their children with a partner from the majority population, all racial tensions would be gone in 2-4 generations. This is true for both America and South Africa.

[@karlmarx809]

And this is called eugenics

[@kstar2020]

Are you saying if everyone was white there would be no racism?

[@jed52]

kstar2020 Look at Obama and tell me again what you think the world would look like if everyone was racially mixed. White is not what I see.

[@ellalella1]

@@karlmarx809 It is only eugenics if you are forced to do it. While I am not advocating for this I could see it as something that is encouraged but not forced just like how some countries do not make vaccinations obligatory but instead make it free and easy to do so and advocate for vaccinations but people are allowed to say no. If countries are positive towards diversity, mixing cultures, operating in two or more cultures and finding common grounds between cultures that would probably lead to more marriages between current groups. I agree too that this would not make everyone white, dark pigment is dominant so most would be some level of brown.

[@TheVietnameseDevil]

🍵🍵🍵🍵

[@DerekFullerWhoIsGovt]

I started ☀️ bathing..

[@saintlybeginnings]

41:20 as a woman, I will speak up. But speaking purely from a science pov- the unborn child is not the body of the woman carrying that child. He or she is a unique human that is living and should be given the same rights & protections guaranteed under our constitution. The arguments used by pro abortion groups is nearly identical to those used by proSlavery. This is no wonder since the founder & first activists that pushed Abortion were bigoted eugenics minded individuals who believed in pure race, believed in removing the ‘undesirables’ from the fertility pool.

[@ASHERUISE]

A collection of cells growing in a dark, wet sac can't possibly comprehend the difference between life and death. A human is a being with experiences, values, likes, dislikes, goals, and people to mourn them if they die. In spite of having those things, I personally would rather die than go through the body horror of an unwanted pregnancy, it sounds like a waking nightmare to me, and if forced to undergo such a thing, I most likely wouldn't come out of it as a sane, whole person. Furthermore, I know you don't like eugenics, but frankly, with my underlying health issues, it would be akin to child abuse to force an innocent person to inherit them. And really, to be completely honest, we are terrifyingly overcrowded, we've multiplied by what like 3-4 times in 100 years? Not only are we wiping everything else out, but there's so many of us that a lot of us simply don't value other people any more.

[@saintlybeginnings]

ASHERUISE - your ignorance and your dangerous definition of what constitutes life worth life if truly terrifying! All life is a collection of cells. So anyone/ or anything that doesn’t fit your definition of valuable life should be aborted? Someone who is comatose? Any life that doesn’t have values/ likes/ dislikes/ goals/ or someone to mourn their loss? Well, I mourn the loss of every child. A miscarried child is deeply mourned. Does that child have more value of life? Many who abort mourn the loss of that life (I’d not care to know anyone who can kill a child and not feel sorrow). Don’t do the deed and you won’t have to go through an unwanted pregnancy or be a murderer. But if you chose to do the deed then there is responsibility that comes w/ that choice! We are actually falling below replaceable levels which will lead to a horrific economic world crash in about 100years (per the UN population stats). No, we aren’t wiping “everything else out”, we are actually creating. As we reduce the value of the most fragile of life amongst us, it definitely because easier to devalue all life. As we don’t know sacrifice and unconditional love we definitely grow more self centered - I agree. Just as you point out about yourself- “it would be ‘body horror’”, “I’d rather die than carry an unplanned life w/zone my womb”, “sounds like a nightmare to me”- lots of ‘me’ not much for another. You’d rather die than sacrifice for another; I’d die to protect the life of my child. As society supports killing the unborn and the elderly as well as anyone who is going through a hard time and wants to give up, yes, society will continue to collapse into darkness and selfishness w/ little care for anyone else..

[@rabidfarmer9765]

Am i getting this? Some blacks dont know they are black? Somebody mansplain it to me..

[@stanleycross6000]

These two are Harlem Renaissance lost boys (no caps). Or what would Zora say? Marry white women? It has been done for a while. Is this performance meant to make the white audience feel comfy vs comfortable? Or the Mock Levin diatribe? Glenn, please take your solemn preaching to the nearest church on RI. The Black folks will follow you...notice the sentence before this one? There is a Robyn Hitchcock song for Y'all...ends in '...Save your illusions for your self.'

[@TheVietnameseDevil]

🔺🔺

[@theresadunne2284]

They have white privilege

[@UltimateCowBoyCat]

No they don't

[@conradhicks6354]

John.....you 'adore' Joy Reid?!? On what basis? Looking for black points here? Sounds gratuitous on your part and without foundation.

[@gamalielyoung8182]

I like listening to y’all for a different perspective but it’s hard to stomach this conversation ... y’all so miss the point on race or maybe it’s better to say that y’all skirt around it ... as smart as y’all seem to be, y’all certainly don’t address it ... only at the 1st quarter; hopefully it’ll improve

[@Ken-iu2zp]

Disgusting.....

[@darrenpalmer3109]

I admire their intellectualism, but they are just as confounded and angst-driven as most people are, on the subject of race. They need to call me. I could help. (lol)

[@missymiss2357]

Glenn could stand to hold off on all those big words. He could be more concise with simpler words and phrases.

[@kellyowens1868]

At least he is trying to be clear, unlike Mr. Dyson. KOut

[@karlmarx809]

Kelly Owens Why don't you go watch some more Jordan Peterson videos. You have nothing of substance to add to any of this.

[@kellyowens1868]

+Troy of Helen + Do you have an example for me, Troy, or are you here to segregate this section. There was no substance in your IUD post, but I didn't feel the need to point that out to you. I'm sure you are aware that because you underperform, you lash out at folks. I'd rather stick to issues, and ideas.... Do you have any to add. KOut

[@missymiss2357]

Troy Barnes ... I like JP too. So should I go away too?

[@hankbenson7535]

Missy Miss, you're not wrong and Glenn would probably acknowledge your point. That said, intellectuals and people who learn much of their language from books and seminars usually take their language to be part of their means of expression. It's not usually pretentiousness and it's hard for them to give up their full tool set. Many of them feel they shouldn't have to, and would request that people use their dictionaries if needed. I say this in the spirit of sharing honest views which is what this blog tries to encourage.