Keys To A Dream Software Development Setup

[@codetothemoon]

Ok many have been asking for my QMK/ZMK configs, here they are: Corne - github.com/Me163/keyboard_layouts_qmk/tree/master/corne Iris - github.com/Me163/keyboard_layouts_qmk/tree/master/iris Kinesis Advantage 360 - github.com/Me163/Adv360-Pro-ZMK Glove80 - github.com/Me163/glove80-zmk-config Chocofi - github.com/Me163/zmk-config-chocofi I'm not making the Piantor available quite yet as setting it up was a bit of an oddball compared to the rest and I'm not sure if I did it right. But the layout I use on the Piantor is identical to the one I use on the Corne.

[@kennethbeal]

Nice, thank you! Really like that you and Primeagen referenced each other. :) I bought a CharaChorder a while back, which has posts that your fingers move up/down/left/right; so, a LOT less moving to different "keys." Practiced a bit; it's in storage now, looking forward to trying it out again after the move. Years ago, I "invented" (in-head) an upgraded videogame controller. It'd be somewhat the opposite: it'd have "wells" you insert your fingers in, and could then register up/down/left/right, and also pushing down, so 5 operations per finger. Never got around to building it. Feel free! :)

[@brianfox340]

Unimportant questions on your Glove80 layout: Numbers across homerow is interesting. It's there a reason you prefer that to a number pad on one hand centered on homerow on your second layer? It's not something I've tried. Do you play computer games at all? If so, how do you work around that? (I have a "standard" layout shifted to put WASD with the D on the normal F key to keep my hand on homerow and minimize remapping for games on my dactyl manuform for instance) You're making me consider trying a keyboard with those low profile keyswitches now.

[@Microphunktv-jb3kj]

lol if i would use neovim or smt like that, i would literally bind motions to use wasd ... hjkl is so awkward, one of the reasons i never bothereed with neovim much , just configured vscode as much as i could to my own liking either with custom hotkeys, settings and plugins maybe its because i have 85layout havit keyboard, it doesnt seem to be standard layout, where keys supposed to be... i misclick a lot, and caps themselves seem smaller than standard... anyone know good mechanical keyboard wich has nice sized caps ?

[@oscardiggs246]

I came to the comments specifically to ask for this. Thank you!

[@Lisa-hk8ht]

Is the piantor ready yet? D:

[@Danielo515]

Every time I see anyone going split ortholinear I regain faith in humanity. You reaching up to the glove80 really impressed me

[@codetothemoon]

thanks! yeah really happy with the Glove80 so far, I love the other boards featured in this video too but the Glove is hard to beat

[@kylehart8829]

It's a very interesting choice to go for a huge keyboard, usually people go smaller and smaller since the whole "ergo keyboard" endgame is mainly about reducing finger movement. Most people find out how insanely useful layers are and never look back. The one thing I haven't dropped yet is the pinky column. I may try a layout that doesn't use the pinky columns since I'm already using home row mods, and since I can just yank the keycaps off of the corne I might at least give it a try.

[@Danielo515]

@@kylehart8829 the thing is that the glove80 allows you to teach a lot of keys with very little finger movement

[@Rengah]

@@kylehart8829 I personally just ordered a Glove80 after trying it. I've been using 36 keys for quite a while and even though the Glove80 has so many keys available, I'll probably stick to the 36 + a bit. So will probably not use almost half of the keys on it. The curve on it though, that's what makes it special and from what I tested.

[@slowcreep6978]

I've been looking for a smaller form factor split columnar keyboard with 1.5 u modifiers. Unfortunately, it looks like I have to go with a larger form factor like an Ergo Dox or a Moon Lander, but they go for $200 plus dollars and I want to be able to hot swap in custom switches. I have some Holy Panda Franken-switches that I need to put in something. I'm literally thinking about using CAD software to just make my own board.

[@Maxelya]

One year ago, having switched to vim, I decided to go one step further and try out a Ferris Sweep v2 (34 keys) with a custom layout and put my mod keys on the home row. I liked the elegant minimalist design. It's so comfortable to work with it, I'm never going back to a traditionnal keyboard, ever.

[@stoicfloor]

I've been using a plank but now I'm ready to get a chocofi keyboard. Thank you so much for such a high quality video and awesome introduction to these next-gen keyboards!

[@codetothemoon]

nice, the Chocofi is fantastic! Thanks for the kind words!

[@jijiDwuv]

Add worked 😂

[@KennethBoneth]

Really high quality video. Pacing and script was on point

[@codetothemoon]

thanks so much for the kind words, glad you liked it!

[@yrtepgold]

This video is on par with a Project Farm tool comparison video. Super well done. Great research and presentation of each keyboard, as well as your journey.

[@codetothemoon]

thank you! I hadn't heard of Project Farm, will have to check it out

[@yrtepgold]

Yeah I bet you'd enjoy it. He compares a lot of products (primarily tools in the same category), with most of the projects coming from suggestions in the community. He's like a one man consumer reports resource.

[@GetAnAndroid]

I recently got a ZSA Moonlander, I've been very happy with it so far. This video has given me some great ideas on new layers and macros to try. Thanks!

[@kylehart8829]

The moonlander is actually great for trying smaller layouts too since it has hot swap. You can just rearrange things so you can see roughly how a corne or iris feels, and if you're morbidly curious you can try even smaller stuff. Or you can just drop the number row, whatever you want to do.

[@rondYT]

I’ve been using ZSA Moonlander for half a year or so, and I still have no idea how to properly use the red thumb key lol

[@jacekkurlit8403]

@@rondYT According to ZSA with your index finger

[@brianibbotson6492]

@@kylehart8829 this is what I've done, effectively turned it into a ZSA Voyager by removing 9 keys and the red thumb key on each side. In the long run I'll probably get a Voyager but this works for now

[@jakubwojciech1]

I have KinesisAdvantage2, Moonlander and now, you have convinced me to buy Glove80, just bought it, and can't wait for delivery :)

[@codetothemoon]

congrats, really happy the video helped - report back on how you like the Glove80!

[@hicamajig]

Happily been using Corne for bit over 2 years now. Love it.

[@codetothemoon]

nice, the Corne is fantastic! Absolutely worthy of being an endgame board imo

[@ejazahmed4609]

This is such an incredible video. I have been looking into purchasing a split keyboard and this video is huge help. Thanks a lot!

[@dazealex]

I have a split key board for over 8 years, never tried it... Ergo team gave me one. Now I gotta try it!

[@qangeldratsch9643]

Wow, this video has been quite interesting. I dont think that I will use a split keyboard ever, but those home row mods sound so good. Thats right up my alley of keyboard optimization. I will definitely try that one.

[@codetothemoon]

they are worth a try! it frees up so many other keys that you can then use for other purposes. one other approach I just thought of for those that want to make even less heavy handed changes (no pun intended) is to keep the mods where they are, but have them serve other purposes when they are tapped as opposed to held. Just a fleeting thought. Theoretically you could use both approaches at the same time...

[@brianfox340]

Homerow mods are the truth, and I think everyone should try them. I'm also a big fan of split keyboards for comfort. You don't have to go non-staggered or non-flat if you don't want to change too many things, but I'm never going back after making a dactyl manuform (similar in design to the Glove80 shown, but 3d printed).

[@TehKarmalizer]

Got the Advantage 360, and it’s so nice for my wrists. Much more comfortable to type. I really like the keywells and the staggered heights. Wish I would have switched to a split form factor years ago.

[@tedrose]

Great video. thanks for digging into the details!

[@codetothemoon]

wow thank you so much for the support! Really happy you got something out of the video!!

[@steveruqus2680]

Amazing. Efficient, effective, informative and fast. Well done

[@codetothemoon]

thank you, glad you liked it!

[@marcusrehn6915]

I've spend so many hours researching keyboards. Ended up with the sofle(corne + number keys). It's a great starter board for those of us who could not commit to only 3 rows. Super expensive to get it imported here to Sweden, but totally worth it! Having vim arrow keys is just the best!

[@codetothemoon]

Sofle looks really nice! and YES re: vim arrow keys! amazing to be able to use hjkl to move the cursor around in non-vim programs with a layer key pressed

[@kylehart8829]

Definitely try dropping the number row, Sofle is a great one to get since you can try those smaller layouts without committing to them. Worst case scenario you hate using layers so much and revert, but it's worth trying for sure.

[@azidoazide7039]

I have a sofle too. Having the knobs for scrolling volume and zoom is awesome.

[@blaze9872]

I ended up buying the piantor after a month of looking through options. It should be here in a month or so, and I'm excited to try it out. I wouldn't have known about it without this video. I think it is the fewest keys I could go to without previously using a next gen keyboard.

[@codetothemoon]

nice, congrats! I personally love the Piantor - there will definitely be a learning curve but it will be worth it 😎

[@chjayakrishnajk]

These keyboards are really cool. the way you explained every keyboard is very good

[@vedanthinorn]

While I appreciate the information and will definitely take a look at the glove80 as a starting point. I just do not understand the keyboard minimalist things for software devs, 99.9% of the time typing is not my bottleneck it's thinking about what I'm doing, also I can't be alone in having a very physical muscle memory that doesn't like key locations switching purpose (AKA layers) same reason I don't like virtual desktops and do like many, many monitors. I think I'd consider the glove80 split 3 ways with a numpad and extra keys on the sides for little used functions. I swear that I'd prefer to have no overloading on symbol keys at all

[@codetothemoon]

I think the underlying premise of what you're saying is the assumption that the intent of minimalist keyboards is to reduce time spent typing, which I don't think is really the case for most folks. For me (and many others) it's primarily to increase comfort, which potentially might mean the ability to be more productive (but not because of an increase in typing speed). Regarding layers - you're already using them - the Shift key is essentially a layer switch 😎

[@Googlrr]

I'm a bit late to the party here but figured I'd toss out my thoughts. I used a Planck for years, only 4 total rows, with the Colemak layout. I got this point brought up a ton over the past decade about typing speed. People rightfully mention that the boost in typing speed isn't really fixing any bottlenecks and likely isn't worth the learning curve. Based on only that metric they are correct. But I think my reasons for switching go past WPM, efficiency, or even productivity. For me I've always felt like the keyboard is a prohibitive layer between me interfacing with my PC. There's something about being able to control every key, minimally and efficiently, that makes it easier to keep my flow when working. Not sure if you've ever used VIM, but I felt the same about that for a long time. Why would someone learn this stuff? Typing was never my bottleneck when programming, why do I care if we're selecting and moving text slightly faster. It wasn't really until I dove in and started using it a bit that I understood that speed wasn't really the point, it was being able to turn my thoughts into action in the computer with less friction. Anyways thats random thoughts on it. Definitely not for everyone but I think even if no one ends up sticking with it theres some value to trying out some crazy layouts and seeing how it feels. Worst case scenario you find out you were already using your best layout!

[@babybloc]

It totally makes sense to me that for some people having all the keys laid out whether visually or individually would be really important - because brains work differently In the shift key that makes capital letters and other things you can see of you look, is different than a layer change that changes everything into a bunch of invisible characters We do use layers every time we type shortcuts with the mod keys. Ctrl + A is one key in a whole layer triggered by the Ctrl key. But we don’t think of it that way The minimalist keyboards have barriers like this. And I really see where some maple just would never have any benefit from that You don’t really talk about the ergonomically reasons a lot of people seek out split keyboards and wrist issues making people want tenting and such. But those are a whole other thing that kind of don’t give some people a choice eventually

[@brianfox340]

I agree with you to an extent. I'll never understand super minimalism, but my keyboard has 64 keys, which is WAY less than a standard keyboard, but was comparatively easy to transition to, and makes my keyboard easy to use for things like gaming. I still use layers, sometimes for things like a number pad and arrow keys on my homerow so my hands never really have to move around the keyboard.

[@eye.of.thestorm]

6:28 Thank you so much for showing this! After watching the video I looked it up and it's a game changer for me!

[@HalfMonty11]

glove80 truly is the endgame. I love mine.

[@BigToinE976]

From the POV of someone who wants more than 70keys, I agree its the best, while I think it can be improved. - The 8 upper pinky keys are unreachable, the curvature radius of the pinky columns contour is greater than the others (for esthetic reasons I guess), while the pinkies are shorter so the curvature radius should be smaller ! - The 6 innermost thumb keys are a pain to reach, it is necessary to stretch the hand sideways or move it entirely. I think that the thumb cluster should be shifted a bit below and outwards to make all thumb keys easily accessible.

[@zarkonesmall]

Endgame: The mythical beast of keebs hobby

[@EmileNani]

I was curious about the corne and was leaning towards that to start my nextgen keyboard journey. After watching this, I think the Kinesis and the glove80 would suit me better. Thanks for the video man!

[@codetothemoon]

nice, really happy you got something out of the video! I don't think you can go wrong with any of those 3 boards - they are all fantastic.

[@redheadsminecraft]

really appreciate the time and effort put into this video .

[@brionnoxeh]

every piece of content you produce is a home run!

[@codetothemoon]

thank you!

[@saulocodes]

Having that money spent on keyboards deserves at least a like & comment 😅

[@codetothemoon]

hah thank you so much! 😎

[@Hearrok]

So if you are a dev and you have extra keys that you don't use for typing. Build macros on those keys. Like write out default function/class structures, logging, etc etc. Saves a lot of time

[@abc33155]

That’s what snippets in your text editor are for. And you can navigate those with Tab to fill in the blanks in the templates.

[@Hearrok]

@@abc33155 your assumption is that everyone is working in proper text editors x) haha i wish... working in cloud solutions/on web based systems. You don't get the fancy text editors to work with :D

[@harleyspeedthrust4013]

i have a lot of vim keybindings for that stuff. leader + one or two keys to do something quickly.

[@iaries]

thanks for the summary of most of the ones I was looking at, good comparison

[@codetothemoon]

thank you, glad it was valuable for you!

[@unknownceres5714]

Insane how loud those "silent" switches are

[@codetothemoon]

the video gives a somewhat distorted perspective, as I had to substantially raise the volume on the Iris clips to capture the nuances of the sound. In reality they are considerably more quiet than all of the other boards I use in the video

[@ya64]

I got a Lily58 as my first split board and I'm quite happy with it. It took an adjustment period but after a month or so I'm quite proficient with it and I don't see myself going back to a regular keyboard ever.

[@codetothemoon]

nice, the Lily58 looks like a great board. Reminds me of the Iris but it looks like the Lily has much better thumb key placement. Definitely with you on never going back to a regular board!

[@seanmichaelpe2357]

@@codetothemoon got mine recently too, to be honest the leftmost and rightmost thumb keys are a little awkward to hit with your thumb depending on the combination, but otherwise it's a great board.

[@johnzzon]

I've been looking into split keyboards and I'm glad you seem to have confirmed that Glove80 is a great choice, it's the one I'm leaning towards.

[@codetothemoon]

It's a great one! If it's in budget it's a great first one to try. If you already know you like chocs then it's a no brainer imo

[@s0nspark-public]

Down the rabbit hole I go! I ordered a Piantor after watching this vid - I've wrestled with touch typing ergonomics for a lot longer than necessary, it seems.... I'm going to give Colemak-DH a try while I'm at it, - this should be a fun journey!

[@codetothemoon]

nice! it's a great board. I haven't made the leap into Colemak myself, but I got to about 50wpm on the home row keys and it does feel really nice. I've also heard anecdotally that learning it on an ortholinear board might make it easier for the brain to transition back to qwerty on a traditional board. No idea if that's true, just something I've heard

[@Kappu_ch]

This dude is just good at typeing hands down. The fact that you can adapt to the different layouts like that is kinda crazy.

[@clutchmadness]

I respect your commitment.

[@codetothemoon]

Thank you!

[@EduardoOriveVinuesaEdorka]

Here an user of two cornes, (one MX and a choc), Happy to know about other compact kbs and even happier about the home row. Great explanations and video as always.

[@kdcadet]

Personally i enjoy my ergodox moonlander a great deal. Thank you for spending all this money and more importantly time to bring us this roundup!

[@codetothemoon]

nice and thank you! Cornes are fantastic. hopefully this new awareness doesn't turn into a money pit like it did for me 🙃

[@EduardoOriveVinuesaEdorka]

@@codetothemoon nope, not from you, but a money pit for sure. This is my second corne and planning to buy and build a new kit sooner than later. Thanks for replying! BTW your Rust contents are great.

[@Nick-ti9rz]

What is your preference and the major differences you’ve noticed between max and choc?

[@Nick-ti9rz]

Mx and choc**

[@kyedav]

Actually a really good informative video. Although I couldn't help but notice the "H" and "G" key were the wrong way around on the Corne v3. I just couldnt unsee it haha

[@codetothemoon]

thank you! yes they are indeed erroneously swapped - funny, somebody pointed this out in a previous video I made with this board and I neglected to fix it. another reason blank caps are great - no need to worry about such a thing 🙃

[@rickdg]

I’d like to go deeper down the rabbit hole, but I’m afraid of not being able to use a laptop anymore. It’s great to just have a single device to carry around and do some work.

[@rdom9680]

This is an old comment, but I switched to a split keyboard, this is my experience using a laptop/normal keyboard now. I rarely use a laptop, but when I do I pick up typing within a minute or two. I imagine that using both helps keep muscle memory and will cancel out this transition delay. This seems to be consistent from what I read about other people's experiences. I would take the following with a grain of salt because I'm not sure how many people experience this. The only issue I've come across using a laptop is that I get some wrist pain quickly when I go back to a non split keyboard, although I'm positive it has to do with not using that layout for a long time.

[@damienhottelier7755]

Thank you. Just ordered a lily58 and this gave me somehow a preface of my future spendings (and lengthy explanations with my wife why this is such a necesssry expense 😮)

[@codetothemoon]

nice, welcome to the rabbit hole! My wife has definitely rolled her eyes at me more than once after glancing at my keyboard collection...

[@betagroobox]

- Doctor I have a problem, please help me. - Sure thing, please take a seat and tell me everything - Hold on, let me take my 78 split keyboards that fit perfectly in my pockets - Oh, I see....NURSEEEEE!

[@codetothemoon]

it seems plausible that keyboard addictions may steal the spotlight from more severe ailments....

[@pointeplusplus]

This is my favorite keyboard explanation video I've seen so far! It's the one I'm going to send to my physical therapist so he doesn't have to listen to me ramble and gush over keyboards. I've been just getting into mechanical keyboard and I had a similar religious experience when I bought my first upgrade to the Womier SK71 recently. For maybe about 8 months I've had my eye on the glove80 but haven't been able to bring myself to get it. And then very recently I find out the "unsoldered" version isn't hot swappable, just sans switches soldered in. Nuuuuu, not my perfect grail/endgame keyboard gone off and made me go back to square one. I was really interested in the pro red linears since I have some finger joint issues, but if they end up being too light I'll bottom out and it'll be worse. At that price point, I really wanted to get to try out different switches and if I ever need to lube them I'm not down to solder them all. I'm a little torn and I'm considering buying something like the glove80, iris, or moonlander which all aren't exactly what. I want... and going off the rails and going full dactyl manuform mode. I think for me per-key RGB is a must to help show a layer noob like me which layer I'm on and where the keys are on that layer. I'm trying not to lose too many keys at once and I'm not even sure if I'd do better with the regular switches or the choc. If only Best Buy were full of these and I could stroll down and give them a try 😅

[@studxmuffin5641]

Thank you for this video! I'm a little while out of college & decided I wanted to invest in a quality keyboard as a software engineer since I use it so much awhile ago. Well now, Im going to order a piantor to take a leap of faith to help with wrist pain and a better typing experience since Ive never been fully comfortable with QWERTY

[@codetothemoon]

nice let us know how you like it!

[@studxmuffin5641]

@@codetothemoon I’m about 5 days in now and loving it so much! I have dropped from ~90wpm to 15wpm but I was ready for that. I do however look forward to typing everyday now & I can’t say I’ve ever felt excited about typing before now. Can’t wait to master this board.

[@codetothemoon]

@@studxmuffin5641 sweet so happy to hear that you like it! that sort of drop in speed is quite expected - you'll get back to where you were faster than you think 😎

[@studxmuffin5641]

@@codetothemoon Hi again! So I'm awhile in now obviously and this is fantastic. I swap freely between this piantor for programming and my normal board for gaming and I am so happy. Biggest thing honestly is I feel like a total badass when I use it, absolutely fills the 90's hackerman mecha-pilot fantasy and I couldn't be happier.

[@crebafurros]

I have a corne but I'm in love with the charybdis nano, the one without number row, 6 columns (just as the corne) and with a trackball. It has a curved dactyl form but it's so expensive and hard to get!!

[@codetothemoon]

I'd been eyeing the exact same one and would love to try it as well, but as you say they seem really expensive and tough to get ahold of!

[@proper_noun436]

i use the charybdis 4x6 and i couldnt use anything else

[@goatofdeath]

I've loved ergo boards since the original off white/grey Microsoft Natural keyboard that I used for a very long time. My first foray into split boards was the Kinesis Freestyle RGB. And what really got me to find it was a RGB. At the time I was using a black MS 4000 and the only thing I didn't like was not being able to see the keys when I had my room dark. I kept looking for an ergo RGB board now and again until the Kinesis finally showed up on the scene. I liked the board overall and being able to do a shoulder width split and tenting was just awesome. Still a staggered board though. It wasn't until a few years later that the ergo world took off and like you, my number of boards has grown. I got a ZSA Moonlander, which I really love, and that was my first experience with columnar and QMK. Like you, I hooked a lot of my layers to hold down home row keys and that's completely changed how I interact with the computer for the better. It makes it kind of hard to use a normal keyboard now, like on my laptop. It's like I forget what a lot of the combos for certain shortcuts are now because they are just baked into the layers I created, which is awesome. Hold down F to change my right hand to arrow keys and other cursor movements like home, end, move forward word, move back word, is just awesome. The Moonlander lead me to splurge on the Planck EZ Glow, which I like for completely different reasons and has almost the same layer setup as my Moonlander. Then the Voyager came out, which I'm using right now and is my first experience with Choc switches. I really like the Voyager. And I'm waiting on a Dygma Defy to show up. Crazy how expensive a keyboard hobby can get. Not as bad as rediscovering Lego as an adult, but still pretty bad.

[@lowmagnet]

I'm actually upgrading from an ergodox I built to a glove80, so this video was interesting to me.

[@codetothemoon]

nice, if you're willing definitely report back on how you like it!

[@pioneer_1148]

You got into the rabbit hole. I started off with a refurbished Corsair K70 and now I'm writing this on a mountain everest keyboard with lubed and filmed holy pandas switches and pbs keycaps. It's an amazing keyboard but this is the hobby you want if your thing is loosing money.

[@hikatashi]

I've been transitionning to split keyboard since two month ago. And I'm loving it ! Bought the Voyager zsa, it small enough to take everywhere, beautifull and pretty reliable. It takes some time to configurethe layout to your liking, but once it's done there's nothing that will make me come back to a traditionnal keyboard

[@st0ox]

ESC at its usual position is still the most satisfying key to slam. Change my mind!

[@codetothemoon]

oh man - how often do you need to use escape in your daily workflow? I can see its default location being satisfying if you're using it a few times per day - but if you need to use it a ton (such as when using vim) having it immediately to the left of your left pinky feels luxurious

[@st0ox]

@@codetothemoon yeah good argument. But can you imagine, I am a keyboard enthusiast with a self built and very expensive keyboard, but I don't use Vim ^^ I have a pretty heavy ego shooter past, so I just like to use my mouse for coding :D

[@codetothemoon]

@@st0ox lol 360 no scopez in VSCode?

[@st0ox]

@@codetothemoon yes but jetbrains

[@SimGunther]

$40 full sized Chrerry MX Red mech keeb from 5 years ago still going strong 💪 The key to making it perform like a $400 keeb: Space Cadet like mappings through karabiner and xmodmap

[@codetothemoon]

nice! stick with whatever works best for you! I hadn't heard of Karabiner - looks like a great way to customize the layout of boards that don't themselves allow for customization

[@bradd5961]

Great video. We need to see more of these types of videos . I would add two very important things. 1. The corn keyboard now comes in low profile version. 2. I think very aggressive pinky staggers are a mistake. The corne is more ergonomic for sure... The very aggressive pinky staggers cause you to pull down your pinky further which is quite unnatural when done repetitively. Again great video.

[@michrisoft]

Highly recommend the moonlander. To me, it just feels like some of the best of everything shown here. Like the Kinesis with the tenting and thumb clusters, but way less expensive, linear keys with stagger for finger length, pretty good portability with the only real downside being the need to untent before you go. Also Oryx is by far the best customization software I've used

[@codetothemoon]

I've heard fantastic things about the Moonlander. I'd definitely review one if they sent one to me, but I probably won't be buying one - I need to take it easy after the debauchery that led to this video 🙃

[@michrisoft]

@@codetothemoon Lol completely understandable. But I would definitely recommend it to anyone here looking to get into this little ergonomic split keyboard world. Super approachable starting point that you can make do just about anything you want. They even have a kit to like plug in the switch holes if you want to make it a fewer key layout

[@kdme]

wanted it too but it looks too ugly

[@DogeTrump]

the thumb keys on the moonlander are rather far away from the main key clusters compared to the other boards shown here

[@Thechatwithchad]

I’ve never watched a video that excited me annoyed me and wowed me all at the same time… When I say that I would never buy a keyboard again, I accidentally watch your video. How dare you?

[@codetothemoon]

hah! yeah, keyboards are a rabbit hole... I seem to have acquired a few more since this video was made....

[@nekoill]

My guy, our mech key journey began almost exactly the same, only I bought Defender's, and it had wireless capabilities to boot, but for a price hardly higher Redragon's device. It features 7 color backlight with adjustable brightness and where applicable - speed of the light show.

[@codetothemoon]

sounds like a great board! one thing about these next gen boards is they definitely make me jealous of the price points of "traditional" mech boards...

[@nekoill]

@@codetothemoon absolutely! They're so cheap now I was very cautious of buying mine because that just didn't compute, yet it does in fact work, and it works great. The only thing I kinda regret is that it's a 61 key board, so things like arrow keys, locks and home/end buttons are only accessible with fn key being pressed, which makes me wish it was a 64 key or whatever, but then again it makes me glad I use a lot of programs with Vim controls 😸

[@hayopapayo1717]

Code to Moon, do you feel the Glove 80 thumb cluster more comfortable than on the Kinesis?

[@seanmichaelpe2357]

took me too long to realize that the title is a pun as well.

[@codetothemoon]

I'm guessing it gets unnoticed by most folks 🙃

[@TheBigMaxYT]

I basically only like Clicky switches. The heavy glass trigger effect keeps me from making (more) typos, and it helps me to tell when I've fully pressed a key.

[@codetothemoon]

Yeah I can see that. I do think the click is a bit of a benefit to typing accuracy, just a matter of whether the noise tradeoff is worth it I guess. For me it's not really (at least in most situations)

[@TheBigMaxYT]

@@codetothemoon That makes sense. Maybe there's some way to add initial resistance without a click. Almost definitely possible.

[@piyushduggal5370]

He uses Emacs, now I know

[@kurushimee]

I've spent my remaining funds on a Piantor clone and now I'm broke, but with a nice keyboard!

[@codetothemoon]

lol nice which clone? and how do you like it?

[@kurushimee]

@@codetothemoon well, you won't know it as it's handmade by a local and the only copy is mine, but it's called Piantoruv. Technically it's like two left plates of Piantor, functionally and visually it's identical to Piantor, but it doesn't support Piantor firmware, only custom QMK

[@Male_Parent]

I went from wooting to planck to corne. I did not expect to like the ortholinear layout as much as I did. I was wishing my wrists weren't so cramped while I was daily driving the planck for a few months. So I looked at some options and the corne just spoke to me. This is coming from a gamer, not really a programmer. (I like the added functionality of being able to pocket the keyboard, love being able to throw them in my pockets and have a ton of functionality in such a small package). I can see why people wouldn't be able to enjoy 40% boards, it's a learning curve not a lot of people are willing to learn. You have to basically take the leap unless you have a friend that has one of these keyboards. There's also the fact that it's expensive if you don't have soldering experience.

[@rlocone]

Thanks for sharing, and it was very informative.

[@codetothemoon]

glad you got something out of it!

[@martinlarsson6621]

I feel like you're me, but further along the journey, I got the Q1, loved it, got the Iris, loved it, experimented with removing the top row ... loved it and started looking into a corne... Haven't pulled the trigger yet because I wanted to try removing the outer column first, and I dont want to buy two keyboards, well I do, but theyre expesive and a hazzle to buy from europe. Currently in the process of swiching to Colemak-DH, and once I feel comfortable with that I'm going to try a 36 over 42 to see if I should get a Corne, or something else. Great video!

[@gamer-gw9iy]

"dream software development setup" while the video is actually about keyboards... But I'll watch anyway !

[@codetothemoon]

*Keys* to the dream software development setup! 😎

[@gamer-gw9iy]

@@codetothemoon fair enough 😂 Have you seen those crazy CharaChorder key(?)boards? I'm thinking about picking one up and using a community config to try programming on it. Bet it'll be weird and really difficult , but who knows 😁

[@bdubs85]

For all the ppl who aren’t ready to commit to the ortho lifestyle but still don’t want carpal tunnel, I have to say that I really do like my Cloud Nine split keyboard with 10 key. Having grown up with old school mechanical Apple and IBM keyboards for many years, eventually settling on the Microsoft Natural (PS2 version) for more than a decade, unfortunately it slowly died (not to mention the fact that PS/2 is difficult to support on modern systems). I tried some of Microsoft’s “new” versions, but they were all pretty bad and not at all an improvement. I tried the Cloud Nine, and it gave me a lot of the original Microsoft Natural ergo and good enough keys/switches at a decent price. Maybe one day I’ll bite the bullet and go with a Kinesis or glove80, but not yet.

[@thelethalmoo]

Just ordered parts for an ergo travel. I like the look of the inside keys for brackets instead of having extra keys on the pinkeys

[@urzaaaaa]

I ended up with 3 moonlanders all in 40 keys configuration :) I have one at home, one in the office and one spare for testing new ideas..

[@codetothemoon]

nice! once you find a board you love, it makes a lot of sense to have multiple. Will probably wind up with multiple Glove80s soon...

[@Itzryan288]

Planning on getting the Dygma Defy

[@codetothemoon]

nice, looks like a solid board! actually hadn't heard of it until you and a few others mentioned it in the comments

[@Krigalishnikov]

I almost fell from my chair when I saw how much you spent on the Corne, I got mine wireless V3 for 65 euros all assembled with RGB, 1500mAh battery and tilted case, all I had to do was pop in the switches and keycaps, really happy how much the prices have fallen.

[@codetothemoon]

nice! I wonder if it's because prices have fallen, or I just pay a lot to have mine prebuilt. as interested as I am in building one myself, sadly it's probably something I'll never be able to do.

[@WookENTP]

Love your channel. Especially when you dig into the hard-core, what non-devs usually don't do, like these keyboards (made a chocofi myself lately). But most of the programming concepts you touch don't rise above a senior backend engineer level. I dare you to do a DDD episode 😂 Or a deep dive into functional programming, with blackjack and monads :)

[@masterpenky]

great video! For me, an integrated pointing device is the future killer feature of any split/ergo/mech keyboard. Luckily it starts…. slowly.

[@codetothemoon]

thank you! I'm quite curious about boards with built in pointing devices as well, unfortunately i haven't tried any yet. the boards from bastard keyboards look pretty interesting (charbydis, etc), and also the Naya create which hasn't come out yet

[@clayman1980]

You might want to check out the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. It has a bunch of different pointing devices that can accompany the keyboard, like a trackball/touchpad/trackpoint (like laptops used to have). It's a split design, but not minimalistic or caved.

[@hotdog2c]

We need a link to your keymap, zmk and qmk pls :D Also have you tried using combos to replace the keys you placed on your extra pinky column? I find the use of combos to be awesome for keys like escape and backspace, at least on my ferris sweep (rust keyboard btw)

[@b3owu1f]

I'm an Iris user myself.. been building them since the rev2 days where you soldered like 300 things to each half. Took about 4 to 6 hours to make one. The latest rev8 with the solid aluminum hefty frame is so nice.. keyboard doesn't move at all. That Glove 80 looks interesting though but I wouldn't want more than the keys I have on the iris with the exception of a pointer (index) finger set of two keys on each half in the center. I got used to that layout on my Model 01 (have you checked that one out??) and liked it because to your point about less finger travel, having tab/enter and/or a few other keys is very nice. I would absolutely love to go to the 3 row keyboards.. just not sure I am willing to spend the time to learn how to remember to use home keys to shift/hold in to numbers, etc.

[@shadowxtremo]

I like that they worked for you, but I have a big beef against "ergo" keyboards. First, the home row is bs, we don't have naturally horizontal-lined same size fingers, when centering your index fingers on the home row your fingers land in AWEF/JIO; respectively, so you fingers moving one key span an area that covers 4 rows, so 3 is too little/less efficient. Also it is better for your health to move and shift your position frequently when working, instead of staying at one fixed position, which these keyboards are focused on. Sure you can move the ergo keyboards, but that is longer than shifting your body a little, and requires that you take your hands off the home row (OMG). It's nice that it works for some people, but to really reduce getting tired and avoid getting injuries I always recommend using a smaller keyboard (personally I settled on 65%) and getting a good wrist rest for both the keyboard and mouse to avoid getting carpal/cubital tunnel syndrome.

[@Monalemonly]

oh no... a new rabbit hole to dive into

[@codetothemoon]

indeed!

[@WeekendGamerTX]

Corsair K100. That's all I will ever need.

[@codetothemoon]

heard great things about that board, would love to give one a spin at some point!

[@betatester03]

I love the idea of smaller keyboards with minimal keys, like the the Corne or Chocofi, but the idea of completely retraining my 25-30 years of muscle memory while actively adjusting the layout to explore possible optimizations AND potentially losing or sabotaging/poisoning existing QWERTY muscle memory in situations where I might need to use a keyboard that isn't mine worries me.

[@francovaldes4429]

Great video bro!!! Thanks

[@codetothemoon]

glad you liked it!

[@shellbackbeau7021]

I love the sound of my keychron, but I'm excited for the delivery of my sofle later this month.

[@codetothemoon]

nice, sofle looks like a great board. let us know how you like it!

[@shellbackbeau7021]

@@codetothemoon last status update was "Moving Through Network In Transit to Next Facility June 13, 2024" So it's on a ship in the Pacific right now, we'll see how long it takes to get here, but I've got some gateron north pole silvers waiting to go in upon delivery!

[@RedSkyWhisper]

I converted to both split column staggered keyboard and colemak (and learnt vim) at the same time 10 months ago and it's one of the best decisions I ever made. I always take pleasure typing anything on my keyboard now. Now that I'm there, I really don't get the keyboard channel that stay in the old typewriter realm. I am using a keyboard that is very similar to the piantor but has an additonal thumb key in the exterior of each thumb called the claw44 (though it's only available from Japan I think).

[@EridanTheEnchanter]

Similar. Learned vim recently on a 60% keyboard that I had been using for years. Then switched to an orthlinear (like the planc) for a month before building a corne (only needed the PCB and some parts for $30). Then learned colemak, then soul-mak, and now hands-down. I added tenting to the corne and got a vertical mouse too. So many big changes, but such an improvement.

[@blaze9872]

I tried learning colemak years ago, but it was too difficult when I was switching back to qwerty to install software on other PCs. I'm excited to try it with the blank keys on the piantor now that I'm always on the same PC. I'm also in the process of learning neovim, but am holding out for making custom keymaps and learning motions until I get the new board. Any tips on ways to learn all of these things?

[@RedSkyWhisper]

@@blaze9872 For colemak, it's just practice. It took me a month to get to a comfortable typing speed. I mostly practiced on Monkeytype. For Neovim, I would say the magic is mostly hidden and you won't know what you can do until you actually see someone else do it. Watch videos of other people using Vim/Neovim, then trying reproducing. It's also important to not change the default keymaps as everyone uses them. However, if you use plugins, they have their own dedicated keys that (usually) don't interfere with default, but can interfere with other custom plugin keys, so that's something to watch out for. At some point you will ask yourself why you can't just use "A" to insert something directly at the end of the line in other editors. That's when you know you got the basics.

[@abc33155]

⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠​⁠@@RedSkyWhisperEnd lets you insert text at the end of a line and it works everywhere. Obviously, I have it on a layer on a convenient key. I guess Vim users can have their End on a modifier+a and use it with a modifier key when they are outside of Vim.

[@RedSkyWhisper]

@@abc33155 that was just one example, you can also just look for a particular word and go there directly without moving you fingers away from your keyboard with Vim. There is so much more that can be done that is impossible to just have in one comment. The other thing is "A" is end of line, and "a" is end of word. You can get where you want with less keystrokes than when using a regular editor.

[@ayu12641]

Do you miss the arrow keys on the smaller boards? I feel, moving around code will be a lot harder if they are on another layer.

[@codetothemoon]

great question! Actually, I think my arrow setup with these boards is vastly preferable to traditional boards. I actually put the arrows on the home row, accessible via a layer key. So I don't have to move my entire hand to get to the arrow keys - I just activate a layer with my thumb.

[@hatemhesham2862]

The aggressive colum in piantor is peter than corne layout with typeing or there is no different ?? especially with pinky finger ❓

[@Raymen202]

Will you buy the dygma defy? I think that this will be a hot topic and a huge alternative in this keyboard area :)

[@codetothemoon]

looks like a solid board, I'd be happy to give it a review if they send me one but I probably won't be purchasing one - gotta cool it on the keyboard purchases after the debauchery that led to this video 🙃

[@noshut]

For someone who has extreme wrist pain and RSI issues, which is the MOST comfortable and less fatiguing to type on for a full work day? I assume it would be the glove 80 or the Kinesis? Among those two boards, do you feel that the comfort level is the same, or is one more comfy than the other?

[@RemotHuman]

The thumb is not just for the spacebar but for the trackpad as well on laptops. Thats what these keyboards are missing if you ever use the mouse. You would have to take your hand all the way off the keyboard to use the mouse, kind of negating the whole efficiency of these keyboards (if you use the mouse)

[@codetothemoon]

good point! personally i'm not very productive with trackpads, but I agree that the board/mouse transition can be a huge productivity killer. To your point, one option is to avoid the mouse (not a problem for vim and emacs users), another might be to look into keyboards with built-in track balls, like this one that I believe is currently in development naya.tech/

[@BrazenNL]

On my Dygma Raise I have a "movement" layer that allows me to control the mouse with keys. Not ideal, but for when there's no other option but the mouse it's pretty handy.

[@Ruhrpottpatriot]

Ultimate Hacking Keyboard with Trackpad module

[@naranyala_dev]

love your keyboard

[@codetothemoon]

thanks! which one though? 😎

[@JeanMaLePan]

I hate you, now! :) I had my eyes on the Kinesis for months but you introduced us to the Glove80.

[@codetothemoon]

hah! yeah the Kinesis is a fantastic board but I have a fairly strong preference for the Glove80 🧤

[@joseanmartinez]

Love this!

[@codetothemoon]

It’s all your fault!!! 🙃

[@tolem9793]

I spent a ton of money on keyboards too. Eventually settled on the UHK. Only gripe is that the arrow keys are chorded, and you have to hold another key to use them.

[@scarydoors4593]

finally someone else with a corne

[@deltics735]

I used ergo boards for several years until I discovered true mechanical keyboards and since then have reverted to normal 80%/TKL layouts (Keychron Q3 Pro, but not the SE). I spent a little time with QMK/VIA putting some regular productivity shortcuts in place, but other than that I spend most of the time on my keyboard using it to do actual work. A question that always comes to mind when watching the extent to which some people go with their layout experimentation and customisation is … how much time is spent on chasing the perfect layout (physical or key mapping) and how much more productive would it be to simply become familiar with a “good enough” layout and spend the rest of the time doing real work (and accelerating the familiarity process in, um, the process)? WPM metrics can be seductive. But PWPM is more important (Productive Words Per Minute). i.e. Words typed in doing actual work vs words typed in a synthetic WPM metric.

[@homiezurich6681]

Might be a strange question, but can you use the Glove80 lieing down (ie one to the left, one to the right of your hips)? Looking for a working from bed/couch setup, so far looking at a sweep but interested whether a glove could work or not as the regonomics shift slightly. Your feedback would help a lot - thank you!

[@codetothemoon]

not a strange question at all, i was interested in this as well. The Advantage360 is particularly good for this because of the way the stands are designed. I initially thought the Glove80 might be wobbly on a soft surface like a bed or couch, but I just tried it and it actually was very easy to type on, with very little wobble. I suspect that *maybe* using the top 2 rows might be difficult lying down, but I'm 100% sure as I don't use them.

[@homiezurich6681]

@@codetothemoon thanks a lot - good to know it might work! maybe adding a book or piece of wood underneath will make it even less wobbly (for split keyboards, i am leaning towards a z-type camera mount rather than the mini tripod from manfrotto given the wobbly underground..). might give this a go. have you tried smaller DIY keyboards?

[@grudley]

have you seen the fulcrum keyboard? it has a 5 way thumb switch which fits our opposable thumbs more naturally than keys do

[@codetothemoon]

actually I hadn't heard of this one, looks really interesting! thanks for putting it on my radar.

[@grudley]

@@codetothemoon also to get into weird input method territory, have you heard of the datahand its modern variants, the lalboard, svalboard, and azeron? And also the related charachorder?

[@ernststravoblofeld]

If you like cool keyboards, that's fine, i do too. But if typing speed is your bottleneck, you aren't developing, you're doing data entry.

[@codetothemoon]

to your point, when coding I suspect that most folks spend more time thinking than typing. despite that being the case, it seems like the ability to get your thoughts into code faster would reduce cognitive load because you wouldn't need to keep things in your mind for quite as long. But perhaps the bigger potential increase in productivity may come from improved comfort and ergonomics which may yield more hours of productivity than you'd otherwise have. Of course this is all intuition, as far as I know no studies have been done on this.

[@jasonvandermeijden7379]

I'd like to counter and say that some people think through the problems and then plan a solution before hand. At which point there is a lot of template code that needs to be typed out. This is generally where I used to dread, I used to type so slow and I couldn't do anything but type at that moment, as typing was such a bore and a chore for me. Now I am able to type a little faster 80wpm, but also I am able to think of other things than what exactly I'm typing...

[@NateB]

Less pain or thought while typing can help focus better, though.

[@NateB]

And I have gotten to the point of pain. Also, a lot of good coding comes from good writing, in which case you want more words to more different kinds of people.

[@anatoly.ivanov]

Best split keyboard comparison currently online! Question please: How does the “height” (curvature seems the same) of the keycaps influence your tactile “situational awareness” between the Kinesis Advantage360 vs Glove80? As you move your fingers back and forth, is one keyboard easier for you to get back to the home row or locate some far-away key? I speak from my own experience of “normal height” vs “flatter” keyboards. It seems to me like the “edges” and “walls” of the taller keycaps to aid as a reference on the Kinesis (non split… haven’t migrated to the Advantage360 yet). Sorry for the metaphors, hopefully I’m sorta-kinda understandable? Also, have you noticed any touch-typing speed difference between the Advantage360 and the Glove80? Thanks so much for the effort you put into buying, comparing, shooting, editing… As a film guy, I realize how much work such a condensed 13 minutes require!

[@nonagoninf]

I have both the Advantage and the Glove80 and one of my fears was that the uniform profile of the Glove80 would make it harder to find keys. I haven't had any issues in practice though, I think (in contrast to flat keyboards) the key wells help you guide towards the keys. By the way, the curvature is definitely not the same. Eg. in contrast to the Advantage, the pinky column of the Glove80 doesn't only account for that the pinky is much shorter than other fingers when stretched, but also that this difference becomes smaller as you curl up your fingers.

[@anatoly.ivanov]

@@nonagoninf - Wow, thanks for such a detailed comment, Daniël! Now I’m even more ambivalent about the choice between the two… maybe I’ll order both. 🤷🏻‍♂😂

[@nonagoninf]

@@anatoly.ivanov There is definitely a FOMO-aspect of not trying both 😅. The Advantage360 is fine, but the Glove80 has been the better keyboard for me so far. It's also a bit more affordable.

[@anatoly.ivanov]

@@nonagoninf - OK, OK… I’ll get both, there seems to be no other way around it. Our hands are so different, even though to the aliens, we’d all look and function exactly the same. 😂

[@arth1804]

Nice collection! Be sure to let us know once you end up daily driving a gherkin. :D

[@codetothemoon]

thanks! hadn't actually heard of the gherkin - first reaction is "where do my thumbs go??" 😎

[@arth1804]

@@codetothemoon The road from "That makes no sense" to "I wanna try it" is deceivingly short. Every time I said "There's no point in going smaller" I also thought "But every time I reduced the layout was so fun, I don't use these keys THAT much, after all..."

[@biomorphic]

I'm used to the ANSI layout, but I bought my last laptop with the UK layout. I am still not used to it. Imagine if I had to entirely switch to that strange ergonomic double keyboard. I am too old for such a change.

[@health_doc]

Great video. You inspire me to try out using less keys. I always hate when programming and having to type {, } \ etc... I figure before I go out and buy a 60% keybard I just start by modding my 75% keyboard and getting a feeling of using layers in the keyboard. What software for windows do you recommend?

[@morthim]

great video and a better list of what is available than what i was able to find when i was looking into it. you might want to look into different key layouts. im using a modified version of halmak. there is a bunch of misinformation, like travel being bad. what you really want is clustered travel. those buttons on the top of the keyboard that you dont use often would be great global control for your layers. so no matter what layer you are on you can navigate to the typing mode with the push of one button. these families of infrequent buttons matter but dont fit with the current paradigm. what we really should use is space on left hand pointer, and backspace one to the right. my current loadout uses that one for all punctuations. single press is apostraphee, double is semi, double hold is colon. but while i use colon more frequently than expected, i rarely use apostraphe. so there is a small stretch for mistakes. and it would be better if we could macro in 'delete word' to the backspace. on the right hand home row of halmak is the main vowels : aeoi. on the left hand of my modified halmak is : shnt from left to right. what i noticed and changed in terms of layout is a shift from simple likelyhood to treat consonant clusters together. having nt next to one another is great. and st is also nice. also it is nice that since words have small clusters of consonants and then vowels, i can alternatively pater pressing down with one hand then the other. you mentioned wanting to avoid using the pinky, but i find it easiest cause you can use your whole hand slightly rotating it. your pinky and ring finger share mostly the same muscles so your pinky is probably more useful. but some of the layout is ucky. i have w in the pinky collum of my non dominant hand. and it is bad. also i moved the tab away which was a really bad choice. emacs is a bit over rated but the different navigation and text in modes seem nice. i put the arrows on the bottom row of my loadout is emacs layout and it is... okay. better than an inverted T. there have been solutions for navigating uis without directly using a mouse and that seems to be the bigger jump awaiting us. i started with moonlander and moving the mouse with the keyboard is painful. they have special move mouse in cardinal directions commands but they dont go to items on the screen it is just pixel adjustments. i think we need to have a new generation of more context aware boards.

[@FlameSoulis]

My path: Logitech G710+ with Cherry Browns, Keebio KBO-5000 with Kaihl Hako Violets and Chosfox x Kailh Arctic Fox for function keys, and now resting on a 3D Printed hand-wired Dactyl 5x6 with 4 thumb clusters, using a mix of Akko Jelly Lavenders and Kaihl Owl Whites for function keys, with some spare Hako Voilets on things I want more friction on. I'm thinking about building a split Planck next for portable use, though I'd really love to just build a Corne. That said, the Glove80? Looks amazing, but dear lord the price...

[@theanswerisfortytwo8481]

I'm curious how you replace the mouse with a chocify keyboard. Is there a way to drop a lenovo trackpoint on there? If you want to keep your keys on the home row, don't you also need a mouse?

[@codetothemoon]

None of the keyboards in this video aim to replace the mouse, though there are keyboards that do - I think there is a Dactyl with a built-in trackball for example. That said, I don't use the mouse at all in my typical software development workflow.

[@SimisearOfficial]

My game dev friend saw this and is in the process of building a ferris sweep, which is like the chocofi but with 34 keys instead of 36

[@codetothemoon]

nice! heard great things about the sweep, would love to try one at some point

[@reach745]

I became a software engineer just so I can have an excuse to buy fancy ergo keyboards, ergo vertical mice, ergo chair, ergo table. Ergo erthing...lofi music as added bonus

[@codetothemoon]

seems to me like you did it right!

[@holyshibby]

Thankyou for you service

[@malpern]

If you can get a review unit, I’d be curious you take on the zsa Voyager.

[@codetothemoon]

yes I would love to try one as well! pretty sure I'm going to object to only having 2 keys per thumb though.... Looks like a great board other than that

[@kylehart8829]

Have you considered a dactyl manuform? It sounds like it's exactly what you're looking for, basically the glove without the top two rows.

[@codetothemoon]

Considered it, and I'd still love to try one. The main concern for me is the height of the board relative to the height of your palms - this can probably be alleviated to some degree by using wrist wrests. Also hard to justify spending more on keyboards at the moment LOL