Colorado Civil Air Patrol Crash 23 Nov 2024

[@wunderfuel]

Thanks for covering this accident flight , Juan. I knew Susan. Condolences to family and friends of all concerned. I live about 20 miles south from Storm mountain. Weather on that morning was clear and crisp. Next to no wind along the east side of the mountains. Until about 10:00. I was busy hanging steel, and hoping I could finish before the wind kicked up. Conditions in the mountains can be hard to predict. Make sure to leave yourself a way out.

[@i.chase.clouds]

I'm an instructor for CAP and a public affairs officer out of a different state. I don't speak on behalf of CAP in this comment. However, all of our newer aircraft (and including the 182T in question) have data logs they should be able to pull from the G1000s. Hopefully in conjunction with the witness in the right seat they can use this data to help figure out what happened.

[@erickborling1302]

Stall speed increases with bank angle as you know. The turn was made without enough airspeed. Small recips cannot climb into a box canyon and make a steep turn. Leeside downdrafts are a known hazard. We hate to say it but the indications are pointing to pilot error.

[@AureliusR]

​@@erickborling1302You have no idea what happened in that cockpit. Wait until the reports come out, and don't apportion blame.

[@slates010]

@@erickborling1302airspeed isn't the same as ground speed. I think the data is going to prove this isn't a steep turn stall. It doesn't even look that that anyway

[@triple777kodiak]

​@@erickborling1302..."We hate to say it..." Whose we? If in fact you're 'a pilot' then you should know better than to speculate at this point or any point on this downed AC and crew. Wait for the final ruling from NTSB, that's their job, not yours or we. Have a nice day

[@firstielasty1162]

It is the comments section of KZbin, people will speculate, and discuss possible reasons. We don't have to hold our breath and then nod in agreement with the NTSB. With limited information available from many GA accidents, the humans that work there are doing some speculation also...at least in this case, they will have the survivor's account, which we don't.

[@VuurwapenBlog]

Ten years ago I was flying a 180hp RV8 in the Sierras, into the wind. I was thousands of feet above a ridgeline and realized I was headed straight for it because the downdrafts were so strong (2000fpm). I turned away, climbed several thousand feet higher and made it over no problem. Flew to Truckee, where I intended to land, and crosswind was 50 knots, 20kts more than I’d ever landed at. Decided discretion was the better part of valor, turned around again and flew back to my departure airport. Boring flight (but very pretty)

[@pplusbthrust]

Enjoying the scenery from way up high above all the trouble and strife.

[@thomascarlin2844]

He who flights and runs away lives to flight another day

[@CatDaddySteve]

Sierra are infamous for mega downdraft

[@muskyelondragon]

Wisdom, I salute you 🫡

[@Danyulll370]

Where was the home airport?

[@ronsflightsimlab9512]

I'm a CFI and pilot for this organization. Thank you sir for being so respectful. I hate getting in to someone else's cockpit. As a right seater, I see people, GOOD pilots, make mistakes all the time. That's why we train. I see myself as well, but not perfectly. As Teddy Rosavelt said, 'It's not the critic'

[@workingguy-OU812]

Something I held myself to when road motorcycling was to take a different motorcycling course every two years. When held to another person's (and group's) criteria, despite being considered a great motorcyclist by fellow riders and friends, it was surprising what little egresses I made (that I found while taking the next course) from previous training. The same holds for all of us, I'm sure. I think that with piloting, someone can develop very impressive skills and habits while at the same time losing good practices in one or a few smaller areas; trainers - and even friends - can be reluctant to scold/teach/be-forthright with a 10,000 hour pilot who had flown seemingly everything and landed everywhere. Likewise, when a pilot has quite the resume, that pilot knows that they hadn't made mistakes in the past, but that doesn't preclude them from making those small mistakes as the years go by.

[@HeyNiagraFalls]

Teddy Roosevelt. and you what? practice so you don't make mistakes? Can't even spell.

[@robstewart5995]

@@workingguy-OU812 I would be extremely surprised if this is pilot error. She is highly experienced and would appear to be current. Commercial pilot, Certified Flight Instructor, CAP Mission Pilot, belongs to a flying club, flies frequent CAP SAR missions, Colorado native. If I deployed to CO to fly a mission, I would have a 90% confidence level to be an AP in her back seat based on her resume. We will soon find out the facts.

[@workingguy-OU812]

@@robstewart5995 Well, there's that. I guess we'll find out. A Colorado native would certainly recognize the downdraft potentials. Perhaps she turned into the wind because of the loss of power?

[@jimjab3631]

Well you should as we all know there are good pilots and bad pilots plain and simple.

[@David-vf9de]

I've been a member and a Captain in CAP since 1994. I was based in CA for a few years and was a CAP instructor for mountain flying. I can guess....nothing wrong with the airplane as CAP spares no expense to make sure the planes are kept at the highest standard. One of the things CAP teaches is wing overs in box canyons. I'm no longer active per se but still a member. CAP requires a lot of their pilots to become Mission Pilots and Mountain Qualified. I don't want to second guess, but looking at the ground speeds is a concern. RIP and thanks to the CAP for all the incredibly dedicated people who give of their time freely including search and rescue, assist with forestry service, border patrol, and other duties. I hope Juan will take us through the final findings of this crash.

[@TheMaximac]

First class dissemination Juan as always. As a retired pilot, back in the day worked as a pro photo operator, I can clearly remember fatigue setting in after about an hour coupled with the weather and ad libbing of the camera person, very nearly lost it on more than one occasion. You have many followers here in UK, your pearls of wisdom and forensic eyes are much appreciated.

[@dennism8346]

Thank you for showing just how fast a turning stall develops using the Tabernash crash as an example. Wow. We were flying until we weren't.

[@Mike7478F]

Note how tight the turn was!! Panic possibly

[@cub6zt]

I flew into and back out of Erie around that same time that day. I came in from the west at around 15,000 and had a 50-60 mph tailwind with some turbulence as I came down off of the mountains. I spoke to another pilot who started to try and fly out west over the mountains but turned back after encounter 2,000 foot per minute sink rate next to the mountain.

[@cortezchris2405]

A friend of mine was flying about 25 miles south of there around that time and he said the winds were 50 knots out of the west over the mountain tops.

[@Dr_Kenneth_Noisewater]

That could explain the super low groundspeed. It might also explain Sue’s inability to get back over that ridge. Kinda sounds like a possible rotor encounter. I didn’t know her well but Sue was well known when I was last active back around 2009.

[@michaellauer3397]

As a high(er) time, helicopter and Super Cub/Cessna 180 pilot, I’ve spent most of my career “looking for stuff on the ground”. Cattle, goats, sheep, coyotes, cats, pigs and people. You always ask good questions and when you asked about AOA(angle of attack) instrumentation my first response was no. I was wrong. The way you asked the question was if it was a part of a solution… a resounding yes. At least in a training Aircraft, where people who are going be flying at low altitudes receive a more intense “angle of attack training”. I lost one of my best friends January 29 this year to a low altitude accident. He was also a high time pilot. Complacency and distractions at our “age“ may be our biggest killer. Maybe a type of “overconfidence“ somewhat different than the 250-1500 hour pilot. Thanks Juan. The awareness you bring to the table makes us all safer.

[@johnemerson1363]

I have flown C-182s on CAP searches over the High Sierra Mountains in both summer and winter weather. On a couple of missions I was unable to get into certain canyons because they were too narrow to turn around in. I scared the hell out of myself more than once because of turbulence and wind sheer. More than once I only flew two of us because of problems with low and slow flight envelopes. In the 1980's I remember a mountain flying instructor tell us students that mountain search flying was almost as dangerous as aerial combat or being a test pilot. I learned to agree with that assessment.

[@6by6by6]

A neighbor’s son flying a 182q with his girlfriend and his best friend all 28 yrs old flew to close to Three fingered Jack peak in Central Oregon in 1994 crossing over in the same direction as the prevailing winds that day, the moment they crossed over the mountain they entered a strong downward wind that pancaked the aircraft into the snow covered slope killing all three instantly.. I’ll never forget the site of that aircraft’s wings and tail looking as if they had simply float down and settled into the snow.. when in fact the inertia combined with the sudden stop was so violent it put the front two through the windscreen and ripped the rear seat out of its mounts.. The mountains are no place to be complacent about the winds..

[@timduggan1461]

This reminds me of an experience about 30 years ago. I was on an Alaskan cruise, and one "shore excursion" was a glacier sightseeing flight. As a current airline pilot, I asked to sit right seat in the Cherokee 6 that was used. It went well, the pilot was an F/A for Alaska Airlines building time as she hoped to get hired to the Flight Deck. Good pilot. About two weeks later I read that a similar flight, same cruise itinerary, had stalled and spun in while trying to get a better look at wildlife. A tight, steep turn for a "view", accelerated stall. It was NOT the pilot that I had flown with.

[@buffaloj0e]

Juan I hope all this crash reporting doesn’t weigh on your conscious. Thank you for your amazing ability to make it understandable for us regular folk, stay safe out there.

[@pi.actual]

Those groundspeeds tell me that the winds were probably higher than your guesstimate and on the lee side of the ridge they might have got trapped in a sinker. It looks like right after they crossed the ridge they made an immediate 180 and tried to get back across to the south but couldn't make it.

[@garybaldwin1061]

Or she let the airplane get too slow. Her out after the 180 was lower terrain to the west but she turned right into higher terrain.

[@randym7511]

I'm going with your assessment. I think they crossed the ridge and the plane plummeted and they had no way to recover. I've had it happen but barely made it out.

[@DJG37S]

@@garybaldwin1061I’m with you. If you watch the first half these were professional photographers. So that means they were probably slowing down to get good photos. Guarantee you she was not paying attention to her airspeed.

[@danielreuter2565]

Yeah I think so too

[@danielreuter2565]

They should never have been out there with so much wind

[@sandhill9313]

Every fatal is a heart ache, these are very local to me so bringing a tear

[@ericcurry1119]

I flew as PIC for Civil Air Patrol for about 10 years or so when I was younger. We would often fly low and slow while looking for downed aircraft. It was super fun and exciting but there is a high price to pay for any mistakes.

[@maximfdrv]

That day, it was very windy. I flew that night from KFNL to KBJC and it was very bumpy. Mountain flying could be very dangerous especially in high winds

[@icare7151]

Greetings from Colorado Springs, CO. Flying many times in the same model, it is underpowered in the area and weather conditions and area they were flying in as significant up and down air drafts winds and with 3 people in the aircraft they were way underpowered. Appears to be yet another classic Colorado Rocky Mountain high altitude Winter weather underpowered small plane crash.

[@rayfletcher3683]

You do realize gliders without engines fly safely in these conditions? There is no underpowered airplanes just a lack of knowledge and experience. No amount of power will ever make an airplane safe

[@WilliamLanders-q2e]

I was an 18 year old kid with a new PPL back in 1965 , I checked out in the Cessna 182 at the Longmont Colorado airport in 1966 ,I flew about 25 hours in that bird loved it what a hot rod for a high school age kid to fly,but my check out instructor warned me that with 230hp you can still get into a bunch of trouble in the rock pile west of Longmont on a windy day,glad I listened to his words of wisdom.

[@TomYouAreDoingItWrong]

I was a new CAP Senior Member in my first year of USAF service as an F-15 Crew Chief at Nellis AFB in Vegas, having transferred to the Clark County Composite Squadron (CCCS) from my Cadet squadron in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, in 1982. CCCS had an O-1 Birddog Vietnam era airplane as our primary SAR and orientation flight aircraft, along with a Citabria; both airplanes were tail draggers. Lloyds of London was the CAP's insurance provider, and was demanding that we transition away from tail draggers. CAP National was obtaining Cessna 172s, and we got one of those and had to give up the Birddog and the Citabria. The Old Head pilots were quite displeased with this development because of the mountain terrain SAR missions we had to fly. The Birddog performed marvelously in the mountains because of its slow speed and thick wing camber making it very maneuverable in box canyons. The complaint with brand-new 172s was that the aerodynamics, especially of the vertical stabilizer, was great for higher speeds, but hardly ideal for slow speed SAR missions in mountainous terrain. I can't help but wonder about that experience when looking at the sweep of the vertical stab on this 182. These photography missions are very similar to SAR missions, and we can see how difficult it would be to locate this aircraft in dense tree foliage. I live in the Seattle/Tacoma area now, and the Navy recently lost an F-18 in the mountains near Mount Rainier. It was several days before the aircraft was located due to adverse weather, but the same challenges remain for SAR crews needing to do low speed work over challenging terrain.

[@DuckDogYoutube]

I’m in the Civil Air Patrol. We are still and have been mourning the loss of the great members lost in this crash.

[@robstewart5995]

I am an aerial photographer in cap and also fly right seat. As a mission observer. As you point out, Susan Wolber is highly experienced, a commercial pilot, a CFI, a native of fort collins, belongs to a flying club, and flies a lot of SAR missions for cap. In cap aerial photography, we don't fly slower than 90 knots, and no lower than 1000 ft AGL. Cap does a superb job of maintaining the aircraft all by the book and maintenance schedules. Based on what I see so far with speeds and altitude, I would place an odd mechanical failure as a high probability, with the engine failing to develop necessary power. The witness will certainly clarify all that

[@jlvandat69]

The apparent ground speeds shown towards the end of the flight are deeply concerning. As Juan noted, even when incorporating a possible 20 knot headwind, her airspeeds would be well below 60 knots at times. Something is not right. Perhaps the data is flawed? But assuming these ground speeds are generally accurate, it's obvious something was very wrong in the final moments of flight. One possibility not discussed in detail is the possibility that lee-side conditions with a 20+ knot wind may have caused significant rotors, which could cause the very erratic changes in ground speed. If the plane encountered those conditions at relatively low altitude, all bets are off and they were at the mercy of the winds which could have easily forced the plane to stall or simply be forced into the terrain. Too early to have any confidence in this scenario.

[@dukebeach1]

Absolutely. CAP would not allow the crew to go “Oh look. Let’s take a picture of that over there!” And then do that odd maneuver at the end. 1000 feet AGL is Bible on all SarEx. They were headed back from their mission and something happened at that turning point. Mechanical failure or medical issue. Maybe looking for an opening to crash land. Tragic loss.

[@robstewart5995]

@@jlvandat69 The rotor condition is certainly high on the list considering the speed of descent. Recollections of the Steve Fawcett crash. Given that her recreational and CAP flying is all in the local area, Susan would be highly aware of the unique and hazardous mountain flying conditions, however things can happen fast to the best.

[@jlvandat69]

@@robstewart5995 Yes, rotor activity is currently the simplest explanation based on flight data, but we'll know much more after hearing what the survivor and NTSB has to say. Very tragic. Flying is incredibly demanding......some days you could get away with several oversights, then the next day, under the 'right' conditions, one or two minor errors and you're a headline.

[@Spartan136]

As a low hour Civil Air Patrol pilot myself, I really do appreciate these videos on understanding what happened and how to possibly avoid situations like these in the future. It’s always sad to hear news like this, and I remember having quite a few questions when the email from our national commander came to my inbox.

[@studiogconceptions]

I was going to fly just east of Ft. Collins that same day until I checked the weather. Like others had pointed out, the wind on the ground was low. However, the winds aloft were very strong and there was a SIGMET for turbulence. I scrubbed my flight and then later saw news about the crash.

[@philipcobbin3172]

Back in 2005 at Oshkosh the FAA showed a video of a fatal in the Wind Rivers range recovered after the AC lost for a few years was found and lo and behold, a video camera on a tri-pod. Video goes all the way to full power hanging on the prop before stall spin into inverted....presenter played it in lead up and an would stop and ask the audiance....escape to the left....or right...let's see what they decided. When I watched your video of the Colorado stall spin I thought he fubared up turning to the right when the terrain view would suggest an escape to the left....if it that wasn't doable the CFIT would likely have been doable without the loss of control. You only have to drop your guard mountain/terrain flying....once.

[@tondog54]

Is that the hang on Ronnie video?

[@nightsailor1]

Sad news. Important news. Respectful news. RIP Pilot.

[@jimf671]

I can back up what you say about finding aircraft debris in mountain conditions. It's not just snow that complicates the search for white aeroplanes either. We were on a ground search for a crashed aircraft in NW Scotland in an area where there were many outcrops of white quartz and that drove us crazy all day. Towards the end of the day, a guy at the end of the line walked into a debris field. As we walked along the ridge towards it, a helicopter came in and was hovering about 100ft above it. In spite of the proximity, the helicopter was heard on the radio asking where it was. So, based on that, one can imagine the pressure to always get in closer!

[@rexmyers991]

I was born in Colorado and flew throughout the state for many years. I learned to respect the mountains and not push a little airplane anywhere near its limits. She had many times the mountain experience I had. RIP.

[@TUBEORATER]

You make riveting investigation videos. This born investigator appreciates your detailed coverage.

[@ellend7680]

Thank you, Juan. Sad news when I heard this, and it is still sad news now.

[@WOFFY-qc9te]

Thats a long flight with a lot of decisions made, the last few minutes her track seems illogical, she may have been fatigued and lost focus. .

[@ConversionCenters]

As always, Juan, thank you for your analysis. Listening to your process is really rewarding. "low and slow" seems to feature different types of dangers in mountainous terrain and we appreciate your view. Bless those who were lost.

[@randym7511]

I agree with the "downdraft" consideration. I learned that lesson the hard way and was quite fortunate in coming out of the ordeal alive. I flew over a steep ridge after departing Kern Valley Airport (Lake Isabella) to the north. I noted that I had a strong tailwind and had a wonderful ground speed (for a C-150). As I crossed the ridge, the aircraft plummeted with the VSI pinned at the bottom. I was able to nurse the plane further up the canyon while counting fish in the river because the plane wasn't climbing. I was able to (very slowly) make a circular climb to a safe altitude and then over the mountain to the west. I arrived at KPTV with only minutes of fuel left. Lesson learned.

[@antigrav1302]

Yeah, that area of mountains is just bad ju ju IMO. About 20 years ago flying surveys for the Fish and Game, all of a sudden out of nowhere really got the crap slammed out of me flying a Bell Jet Ranger helicopter over the mountains just north west of Kernville, luckily was able to turn the ship around and get back to Kernville airport and told the biologists on board, no more for the day! Probably woulda ripped the wings off a Cessna......

[@hawkgreenway821]

Slow ground speeds mean the winds are higher than forecast, the turbulence in that area means altitude loss/gain would also be expected in the Lee of the peak with those winds. Ground speed doesn’t mean a 182 can fly at 36 knots.

[@naturalverities]

On that morning, I was kayak fishing on Pinewood Reservoir at 6580ft elevation and about 5.5 miles SSE of the crash site. I don't recall much of a breeze at the time of the crash, but an hour or so later the wind came on quite turbulently with abrupt gusts from any and all directions, eventually forcing me to shore amid whitecaps and spray.

[@naturalverities]

...actually as I think back, there were periods of light to moderate breeze in the morning that temporarily dropped the perceived temperature from comfy to chilly, but not strong and steady enough to cause significant wave action on the lake and impede fishing.

[@jiyushugi1085]

Another good example of why all aspiring pilots should be required to start with gliders and get at least 40~50 hours of solo glider time before being allowed to start on their power ratings. No glider pilot would've ever gotten into the situation above. A lady CFI in my neck of the woods had a similar crash on the lee side of a large mountain, seriously injuring herself and her two pax. So many accidents could be avoided if people started with gliders.

Interesting point and the CAP has gliders in its stable of aircraft.

[@jgmendes3664]

As a glider instructor and glider competitions pilot I fully agree with you. Gliders pilots know what to expect from mountain soaring for good or for bad...

[@geoffrobinson7293]

Thanks for the interest in this accident that is local to me. I grew up flying in the Fort Collins area. Mountains and plains. My father was a pilot for this CAP unit for many years. Normal winds over Drake are typically from the northwest. The big issue we have here are the rollers that occur on the lee side of the continental divide immediately west of Drake. As air flows over the divide at 11k to 13k ASL it rolls like ocean waves breaking. Some days you can fly into air moving up at 1500 fpm, the 30 seconds later you hit air moving down at that velocity. It is worse closer to terrain. If you are flying east, there are very few obstructions because the terrain depends. If you are flying west close to terrain generally you can easily get trapped between ridges you cannot out climb. It looks as if she was flying west, just north of a ridge between HWY34 and the Buckhorn Valley. My guess is her ground speed was low due to flying into a headwind. If there were roller air currents, you feel great in the uplift side but the downdraft that follows can push you into terrain. We always flew west with plenty of clearance then turned around to fly east with the terrain. You always have more options flying near terrain if it is descending with you. Mountain flying takes a bit more planning....

[@mita6010]

Thank you so much for covering this accident. This was yet another tragic mountain accident in difficult terrain. 💔 Colorado appreciates Juan Browne.

[@space_ranger2.020]

I was flying at the same time as the crash, maybe landed just before the incident. I was south of there (KLMO/KBDU/KEIK). Normally take Rollins pass from the east to do some mountain flying. A few days before I was seeing 25kts winds and 1500ft/min down drafts which got me a little rattled. That day, which felt a lot worse than the previous attempt, I just entered the foot hills and immediately turned around because it was so choppy. Id estimate it was at least 25-30kts, probably higher at the pass/peaks. So sorry to hear about the crash, any aviator lost, especially someone from my area, just devastates me. The families are in our thoughts

[@marclattoni1959]

So hard to watch. I flew a 182 S in the Canadian rockies for many, many hours over a few years out of CYBW (Springbank, Alberta). Not long after getting into a shared ownership 182 and my mountain check ride that included practicing getting out of box canyon-type formations using steep-turns into challenging terrain in mid summer, the highly experienced instructor and another check-ride pilot died on a mountain rating check ride. So demanding. So sad we lost Mitch. We all liked and admired him.

[@Toupac1029]

I thought canyon lock at first, but yeah... weather and conditions seem to be the factor.

[@Flying_Snakes]

Part of mountain flying training in CAP is to recognize when you cannot safely search the leeward side. 30kt wind means upwind side only and search leeward side when wind subsides. That amount of wind, turbulence, and DA should be an easy no-go unless a couple thousand AGL. Hoping the survivor pulls through and can shed light on what happened. RIP to the pilot and photographer.

[@nelsonbrandt7847]

Outstanding coverage of this accident. Thank you for sharing.

[@iansinclair521]

At some risk of stating the obvious -- I used to fly a good deal out of Montpelier, VT. "Mountain flying" isn't confined to the west coast, folks. Just because the distance down to the ocean isn't as much doesn't mean you don't get problems...

[@tedtessitore355]

As a exCAP flight crew member I have much interest in the analysis of this incident - and prayers up for all touched by this Tragedy.

[@PeterNGloor]

Pilots in the Alps learn about mountain flying in special courses. The downdrafts, weak engines and frequent poor visibility are notorious here

[@steve-o5600]

This exact thing happened to my CFI about 30 years ago....flying a photographer around in the Colorado mountains. Not something you ever forget. Peace to all families and friends.

[@Reach41]

Always good to review these events for the lessons to be learned, but always tragic. Thanks for the explanation, Juan.

[@rwill156]

Watching these mountain flying crash videos, kind of makes me glad that back when I got instructed and did some flying it was over Midwest flatlands.

[@putteslaintxtbks5166]

Probably would be good practice to learn flying on flat land and when have the workings down, go to learning mountain flying at that point. Seems alot of newer pilots aren't ready for the surprises that come with mountain flying and try stuff they shouldn't.

[@maxenielsen]

Ironic, perhaps, is that their departure airport is just a few miles east of the mountains. Af from the mountains to the east is almost as flat as Kansas. Of course, they were training specifically for mountain search and rescue.

[@mikeclarke952]

Her poor family, just before the holidays, forever now.

[@missyroades4533]

My dad was killed in a crash on November 20th 1967. Forever a ruined holiday for me

[@Chris-Nico]

Excellent analysis, Juan. These accidents are tough to handle… my heart aches.

[@russhustead253]

Experienced glider CFI. Two factors come to mind. Looks like she might have hit wave rotor. Also at low level your only horizon reference that you can trust is your attitude indicator. Mountains are deceiving and you can easily pitch up if you think the start of the sky is the horizon.

[@raymondvia3786]

When I was in CAP, a National Commande issued strong warning of excessive high losses and harsh language to make pilots aware.

[@rjbishop12]

Flying that low in the mountains with 25+ knot westerly winds is paramount to suicide. The downdrafts on the lee side of ridges are unforgiving.

[@shecanatakeitcaptain]

You mean tantamount to suicide...

[@UtahJohn777]

and possible turbulance

[@shecanatakeitcaptain]

Not paramount, tantamount.

[@JarheadCrayonEater]

Sad to hear about this the day I arrived in Denver to see my folks. We almost lost a very close family friend, Don Drobny, to a Cessna 182R crash in August 1988 during a S&R, here in Colorado. The pilot of that crash did die, unfortunately.

[@tuxedotservo]

7:50 Juan's sigh right here kind of says everything.

[@57Jimmy]

I recommend EVERYONE to go back to this time stamp and let that sink in to the centre of your soul. Vow to yourself that you NEVER want to have Juan sigh like this over your own flight!😢

[@QFOTO1030]

I enjoy your videos quite a bit and I look forward to them. I am out of medical however when we sold our Malibu I had about 1200 and enjoy anything aviation related. Keep up the good work and fly safe.

[@pplusbthrust]

There's up & down winds happening near the terrain that modify the horizontal air movements into vertical ones. Moving in horizontal moving air is not mentioned except for arrival times but movement through vertical moving air is called turbulence. Near the terrain it can often exceed an aircraft's ability to overcome it.

[@MichaelHainen-g1m]

Juan, excellent analysis, you and Hoover are the best, taught me a lot the last 4 years

[@skitownstreetcred]

I appreciate all of your personal investigations, theories, and professional feedback/input. I truly think that you can and probably have already saved Pilot's & Passengers lives because of what you have done throughout the years. And I thank you for that. As a photographer, who has worked in desperate S&R situations, I have to chime in. Being a photographer for an extremely dangerous profession and being the person who documents their dangerous duties day by day on the job, I cannot help but to be my own advocate and overly, extremely cautious, not being afraid to ask questions, my own research, and looking out for not only myself, but everyone else in the situation. Although, there is no room for complacency in my position, I cannot speak for all "Photographers", but I feel like, this photographer " Trying to get that special angle" isn't a fair assumption, unless you already know the full details... It seemed that all involved have had extensive experience and only time will tell, whether you point fingers at the photographer or not, what actually happened out there, everyone in that plane had their own responsibilities... Regardless, great people were lost. God bless all who were involved and may the souls of those who lost their lives Rest in Peace...

[@robstewart5995]

As a CAP AP, CAP is strict, 90 knots and no lower than 1000' AGL, Susan would have known better, especially on a training mission. Besides that, the CAP cameras have a telephoto lens. We follow the rules for our own safety and since CAP command can now follow on sorties of the ADS-B apps.

[@HighCountryRambler]

The Tabernash stall is exactly what happened to the family from Texas who thought it'd be a good idea to follow I70 West over the divide over to Moab Utah. Until a mile before the Loveland ski area they turned the corner and saw the Eisenhower Tunnel. They banked hard left, that's when they realized these single engine performers from the flatland's perform poorly at 9,000+ ft elevation. Lost the whole family about 8 years ago.

[@HighOctane-wo6cm]

If they were only a mile from Eisenhower tunnel & Loveland ski area they would have been alot higher than 9000 ft ?

[@GregHuston]

I live just 10 miles south of that crash site. I'm guessing they were taking photos of the burned area from a fire that burned in that area this summer; perhaps trying to get photos of something in particular before the storm that rolled in on Sunday. Sad to loose a members of the local GA community.

[@BackboneADV]

I live on the mountain. I was on an adjacent mountain hiking at about 8500 feet when the crash happened. First, I watched that plane fly slower than I've ever seen a plane fly. Secondly, the winds at my house (base of Palisade) were swirling all morning. They were worse where I was hiking. It's not often the winds swirl so agresively. It was an odd day for wind no doubt.

[@MaShcode]

Had a friend who at one time did a lot of aerial photography and he said it was always the scariest but most exhilarating work.

[@asteverino8569]

I'm not a pilot and learn so much about aviating here. Juan, with your flying history, including jets carrying many people, I figure you have ways or practices to stay alert to complacency and add correction. Thanks again for showing me what it takes to fly.

[@tiredagain6722]

CAP accidents are rare. It hasn't been a good year😮

[@motrock93b]

Yes, downdrafts are very possibly a factor in this crash. If they were already operating so close to stall speed, there wasn't much excess performance capability to counteract a significant downdraft. It's possible to determine potential downdraft areas by evaluating cloud formation, and it's possible that under the meteorological conditions displayed in this video that such clues may have been evident. I'm not questioning the pilot or making an armchair pilot proclamation, but I've experienced such situations in light GA aircraft when I was an instructor. We avoided problems by simply refusing to get near the danger area. I considered these valuable training flights for my students, teaching them how to identify and avoid such silent killers as downdrafts.

[@B1900pilot]

A very sad accident, as all fatal accidents are. Generally, the CAP has a pretty good safety record and excellent training...Mountain flying as many have stated isn't forgiving of the inexperienced or inadequately trained.

[@itlodot]

Even less forgiving as she appears to have been both very experienced and well trained. Prayers for those involved.

[@mholzer54]

Juan, Your videos just keep getting better and better. By the way, what is a Blancolirio mean in the context of your channel? I f something occurs in aviation, I wait for your analysis as you are to the point, concise yet explanations are slipped in. I love listening to you as you hit it from tons of experience, to which I nod my head.) BUT GREAT WORK! Super Holiday Wishes, Marc - (Instrument Single Engine Land,, glider, Commercial and Instrument. Also Airframe and Powerplant) [presently grounded due to high sugars and a grungy old heart that had a quadruple bypass. OH I miss flying!]

[@PCBill0622]

Very likely hit a down draft and were too close to terrain to recover. I experienced a 3,000 fpm downdraft near there (but out over the plains) in 182. In attempting to level my stall warning went off. I was at 11,000 msl when the incident began. Praying for God’s comfort for the family and friends of the victims.

[@Glegh]

36kts ground speed?? Jeez

[@zedfourme5085]

Doesn't mean much. In the mountains that could be 100kts airspeed

[@kamakaziozzie3038]

Ground speed doesn’t always translate well to IAS

[@jamescollier3]

yeah could mean hella winds messing with them?

[@igclapp]

The problem with having that slow a ground speed is that you could easily stall if you suddenly lose your headwind due to wind shear/turbulence.

[@rickgarner6269]

​@@igclapp Your wing doesn't care what your ground speed is

[@deansawich6250]

As a former CAP member during my youth, my condolences to the families and friends for your lost. Wishing the survivor a speedy recovery. 😢

[@bw162]

How does an experienced pilot make that mistake? Wonder the same thing about Steve Fossett. Just 300’ below the ridge line on a heading back to Hilton’s ranch.

[@pigdroppings]

" Hang on Ronnie" video starting at 8:13.......When I first saw the long version of the video....I thought these were local pilots that new a secrete pass thru the mountains.....but no, they were flatland pilots flying in the Rocky Mountains for the first time and there was no secrete pass and the mountain got them. The crashed plane and the video was found years later.

[@pfsantos007]

She was also a flight instructor, according to the written portion in the last part of the video. Tragic.

[@slayer6936]

36 knots and hitting down drafts at the low of air speed couldn't have been a smart choice.

[@FINfinFINfinFINfin]

JB, did you hear about the fatal accident of the pilot/plane that flew dog rescue missions (pets from natural disasters, ect), that occurred this past weekend?

[@blancolirio]

Yep...

[@Devilsmed98]

This happened about 30 mins north of me on the other side of the mountain.

[@Efraimbiplanepilot]

Avianca A320 had to do an emergency evacuation just now (19:30 EST) in SKPE Pereira Intl. Airport

[@megadavis5377]

I rarely fly anything anymore smaller than a Fairchild Merlin II or III; however, when I do commit to flying a single-engine Cessna or Piper I have to remind myself that I am (especially while flying at near maximum gross weights and high altitudes and warmer temperatures) essentially operating a powered kite with shockingly limited performance capabilities. I can quickly and easily find find myself in a situation where the only maneuver I can safely perform is a straight-ahead, wings level descent. Some say that the "COFFIN CORNER" is the exclusive domain of the jet; this isn't true.

[@tylercotton354]

I was flying around Fort Collins/Greeley two hours after the accident (I didn’t hear about the accident till later on that day). There was a bit of mountain wave activity and we were getting tossed pretty good. I landed back at KBJC (my home airport) and saw the black hawk taking off to assess the accident as I later found out. Rest in peace to the two individuals that tragically lost their lives.

[@philipcobbin3172]

Hmm, be interesting to see from survivors was AC at a high power setting or slower for photography. If the 182 is performance challenged at the altitude then it would be a big first hole in the cheese model to maintain SIGNIFICANT ground clearance in the multiple thousands of feet over the terrain. Lurking low is perhaps an invitation to lee down airflow. Wind conditions, on 'backside' of significant terrain....relatively low to it...what could (not) go wrong. Take away, interview surviving pilot(s) the major Quiz question....when did you cross the point of no return to break out of the lee side downdraft trap. Just a suggestion. Thanks for the video. Oh, hopefully they have cockpit video of the later flight history to help answer the Quiz question.... just sayin.

[@d.t.4523]

Thank you Juan, keep working.

[@Av8or7]

She was an instructor with a co-pilot, it makes sense that she would be letting him do the flying. Did she let the co-pilot fly to far into a dangerous situation? Low and slow gives you zero outs in a sudden down draft. You need energy to out climb a downdraft. I learned to fly in those mountains.

[@graysono]

I've always loved your vids Juan. You seem to get right down into incidents with pics and data. When you give up firing round in the 777 end job could be at NTSB?! I was told once that recent model Cessna's have engine monitors that record things like T's & P's so if fitted to this 09 model it will make it easier for investigators. It's a wonder with the terrain these guys fly into that these 182's didn't have upgraded 300hp engines. Another great watch sir ! Best from me way Down Under in Middle Earth!

[@cooperparts]

A flew in Las Vegas area many time I was told and it worked for me in mountains you ride the wave the wind bounces off the ground keep air speed up and ride it towards the ground and never fight the down draft it will kill your air speed

[@dannycochrane4330]

As a glider pilot, I wonder if Susan had been caught out by the rotor effect on the down wind side of the mountains. That slow it wiuld have been very difficult to fly out of

[@Kickinpony66]

Prior to the incident, the photo passes were conducted between 115kts and 50kts; then minutes before the incident, the ground speed was 95kts, then it slows to 40kts. I wonder f the wind speeds increased and the turbulence worsened on the leeward side of the mountain, at the time of the accident?

[@TheGospelQuartetParadise]

Sad to hear of this.. Condolences to the families and prayers for recovery for the injured party.

[@flashcar60]

If an AOA Indicator is to prevent such airspeed oversight, it should have an auditory function. We have that in our VSIs in gliders; tone increases as we ascend. The AOA could have a certain tone near an AOA of zero, and increase in frequency with increasing values. When the AOA reaches 14-15 degrees, the tone should beep.

[@rjbishop12]

Typical auditory behavior of GA AOA indicators is to start a slow beep as you approach the critical AOA, and that beep duration get faster and faster (no frequency change), and finally end in a solid tone once critical AOA has been reached, signaling an imminent stall.

[@blancolirio]

Yep, they do.

[@samhill3496]

Good report. Those downdrafts and other factors, it all came together. I did photography for several years. Pilots get caught up in the action and forget to fly the plane. The survivor can enlighten us. Sorry they lost their lives.

[@JR-pt7lg]

Excellent coverage as always. My first thought when I saw the ADSB data was they were looking at wildlife. Colorado native and hunter. Many “something “ Flights this time of year are scouting for wildlife but don’t say such being that it’s not legal. Sorry to be the one to insinuate such but I know it’s prevalent. Condolences to all affected.

[@motojauntx]

If it can happen to her, it can happen to all of us. Safe flights, all.

[@TobinTwinsHockey]

Good people with great aviation experience losing their lives because of one bad day or moment is why I hung up my headset. I just could not dedicate enough time for proficiency and would never be as good as these pilots were. I figured that stacked the odds even more so I walked away. I miss it very much but stories like these just reassure me it was the right call. RIP aviators.

[@scottbeyer101]

I think Air Safety Institute was quoting wind speeds closer to 34 kts. If correct, that is gonna be one heck of a rotor on the leeward side.

[@Fadamor]

Unless they've changed procedures at CAP since I was a member back in 2017, they don't tie-up two qualified pilots on a single mission - whether a live mission or a practice one. A standard photography mission consisted of a pilot in the left seat, a mission specialist in the right seat, and the photographer in a back seat. The mission specialist handled things like the CAP radios and the search tools. Some CAP aircraft were fitted out with G1000 glass cockpits that had a SAR ROM installed to create and log standard search patterns as a flight plan, and the Mission Specialist was the one who should be handling that stuff. This freed-up the pilot for the important part - the safe operation of the mission flight. But the Mission Specialist was NOT necessarily a pilot. SAR-Qualified pilots are a scarce commodity that CAP is always looking to supplement. SAR missions can last for days and one pilot per-mission-flight is a more efficient use of the limited resources available to an incident commander.

[@mazerat4q2]

I was in cap Atlanta Georgia. Flew some actual searches in smokie mnts 90hp super cub. 4k to 7k feet peaks. It's careless to go slow. Winding round and round the crests in steep turns and sliding on down into the valleys. Cruise power don't slow down. Always ready to go full throttle. Perhaps right seat guy was pic. It's really heart breaking to see these stall spins happening all the time. RIP. In reality pilots have become masters of thier craft before angle of attack was invented

[@tedstriker754]

As soon as I saw this report I thought of that Tabernash crash as well right away.

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

You know whats crazy Juan that video you put as an example is the first thing that popped in my head. All I could hear in my head was hang on Ronnie! If im correct they weren't even located until over a year after the accident by hikers and the tape had to be repaired to get this video due to it being in the elements so long.

[@rbeard7580]

Condolences to their friends & families. They say the mountains make their own weather and I think there's some truth to that, especially when it comes to rapidly changing winds.