Colt's Prototype Scaled-Down Model 1910 in .38/9.8mm

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With the impending success of Colt’s program to develop new .45 caliber pistol for the US military (the 1911), the company began to look for ways to exploit the work that had gone into it. They had previously sold lots of .38 caliber automatic pistols, so why not offer a .38 caliber version of the 1910? In addition to a potential US commercial market, a new rimless .38 caliber cartridge might be just teething to get some foreign military contracts. So about 5 pistols were handmade by Colt’s tool room around both the old .38 ACP cartridge and a very similar 9.8mm cartridge (which was tested in both semi-rimmed and rimless variations). These guns were not conversions of the .45 caliber frame, but rather wholly new guns built around the smaller ammunition. They are slightly smaller in scale across all dimensions compared to the now-familiar M1911.
At the same time, Colt’s relationship with FN was getting tense as FN was selling more guns into Central and South America. Colt decided to send their new 9.8mm prototype (in the hands of Eugene Reising, then a Colt employee) to pistol trials in England and Romania. While winning a contract would be great, just appearing would let FN know that Colt was still paying attention. In the end, Colt didn’t win any contracts - but they were able to negotiate a new marketing agreement with FN from a stronger position.
The experimental .38/9.8mm pistols gathered dust in storage, as they were never ultimately put into production. In 1929, someone remembered them when Colt was releasing the M1911A1 in .38 Super. Serial number 3 (this pistol) was given a nice new finish and put into Colt’s factory museum (from whence it later was sold into the collector market).
Contact:
Forgotten Weapons
6281 N. Oracle 36270
Tucson, AZ 85740

[@jamesgilbert124]

When you forget your 1911 in your IWB holster and it goes through the wash.

[@stephen7571]

It would be very clean!,!

[@Pen2penguin]

hate it when that happens

[@paulsimmons5726]

Too funny!

[@cedricpidde2633]

Very depressing mornings they are

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

That's funny. I like the way you think.

[@Brawler_1337]

That thing is in immaculate condition. Holy crap, it’s gorgeous.

[@glockparaastra]

Sure is!

[@42ZaphodB42]

This doesn't seem to have been moved at all

[@mmclaurin8035]

Few pistols are as sexy as a polished steel 1911

[@skepticalbadger]

@@42ZaphodB42 Read the description.

[@42ZaphodB42]

@@skepticalbadger Damn. I was right 😁

[@MrChispa06]

1911: What are you? 1910: I am you, but smol

[@parrotraiser6541]

As Ian was describing the history of that piece, it was hard to hear him over the sound of the collector value whooshing upwards. Rarity, condition, history, curiousity value...

[@Gangxisiyu]

"One of a Kind" gets tossed around a LOT but...there it is.

[@F1ghteR41]

The one in the original condition (№4), however, sold below expectations in 2012: www.rockislandauction.com/detail/56/3554/experimental-colt-model-1910-98-mm-pistol-serial-number-4

[@SteamCrane]

@@F1ghteR41 Put your mouse over the main photo on that page and move your mouse wheel. Shows how they shrunk it.

[@F1ghteR41]

@@lostalone9320 Let's just wait and see how this one would sell.

[@bradlybellant3975]

@@lostalone9320 the finish on it is orgasmic along side with the other stuff

[@Axemantitan]

I notice that it uses a lot of the ergonomic improvements that went into the 1911A1: Curved backstrap, longer hammer spur, shorter trigger, etc.

[@F1ghteR41]

I suspect it was part of the 1929 refurbishment Ian mentioned. This example doesn't have those: www.rockislandauction.com/detail/56/3554/experimental-colt-model-1910-98-mm-pistol-serial-number-4

[@eizol568]

You can tell Ian is excited and trying to get the story out as quick as he can 😄

[@therealcarlxii]

Totally

[@derain95]

Yeah I almost thought I left 1,25/1,5 playback speed on but no, just a happy Ian.

[@lamborghinimiurap4005]

You wanna go bowling cousin?

[@eizol568]

@@lamborghinimiurap4005 “Sorry man got shit to do.Can’t bowl with you right now”

[@Punkaraprectv]

00000000000

[@frostedbutts4340]

Man that pistol looks absolutely brand new, hope I look that good when I'm 100+

[@calvinpaulvincent2840]

His grandfather turned 100 today. He posted a really cool pic of him from the 40s on Instagram this morning

[@joeydamiani86]

You wont

[@JH-gc3ye]

The secret is in the lube ;)

[@blip_bloop]

Eat really healthy, Get 20 minutes of vigorous exercise every day, stay out of the sun/wear sunscreen, avoid unnecessary drugs, and be Safe. I believe in you!

[@TheWolfsnack]

@@JH-gc3ye ...yes...dail;y rubbing of Hoppes #9 on your skin does wonders....

[@roman_sudneko]

Looking forward to watch C&R's many-hour episode on 1911...

[@davidbrennan660]

The Universe might reach Temperature death a week before the episode is aired.

[@lordhefman]

Othias is going to need a bigger table if he is going to cover the variations and guns leading up to the 1911. A literal pile of 1911s.

[@pscwplb]

I wish Ian had showcased the tiny legs that pistol spontaneously grew that enabled it to walk out of the Colt Museum and into a private collection.

[@worldtraveler930]

I second that motion.

[@andrewweninger1059]

I think he covered a video about one of the worst perpetrators of the thefts from the Colt museum collection.

[@SlavicCelery]

In the additional info of the video, he indicates that it was sold onto the civilian market. Could have been during one of the numerous bankruptcies Colt is known for.

[@pscwplb]

@@SlavicCelery that would do it

[@randymagnum143]

Their ought to be a museum dedicated to the incompetence and ineptitude of Colt's management and unions in the later half of the 20th century up to their demise.

[@bulkhungry]

Ian : " ..and nobody's going to put them into production now " Kel Tec and Ruger simultaneously : " Hold mah beer ! "

[@randomidiot8142]

Ruger would probably wait for keltec to do most of the legwork and then introduce theirs later. Or SW. They don't really have anything all that special or unique.

[@glennruscher4007]

Chamber it in .30 acp/shortened M-1 carbine brass with modern powder. 7.62x21 ?

[@randomidiot8142]

@@glennruscher4007 sounds like a 32 hr magnum automatic, or a 7.65 french long.

[@brandontanis388]

I'd buy one

[@cymond]

@@randomidiot8142 What has Ruger copied from KelTec recently? The only thing I know about is the P3AT -> LCP I want a Ruger Sub2000 and CP33

[@2nd_a_dad4791]

Content like this is why Ian is one of my favorite GunTuber guys.

[@SafetyProMalta]

Colts travails in "what if" moments go back a long way...

[@richardlathrop61]

More like preserving market share by threatening competitors. The Winchester-Colt gentleman's agreement comes to mind.

[@swampratt36]

Learn something every day , wow I'm 60+ and never knew this . Thanks very much .

[@Xenophon_Xanthippus]

Serial number 2 might be sitting in an old mans collection right now, and no one knows about it. Wild.

[@silvirhunter3607]

I could imagine he still has the original box of ammo for it since that round never got.. er.. around.

[@glockparaastra]

Now CZ (Colt) needs to get these back into production!

[@ScottKenny1978]

It's basically a Baby Rock.

[@theodorehunter4765]

@@ScottKenny1978 Baby Rocks are smaller than this.

[@Broken_Yugo]

There are already a couple slightly more scaled down 1911s on the market in .380 ACP.

[@anthonyoer4778]

@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine Bolt or Colt which is it heretic.

[@ScottKenny1978]

@@0neDoomedSpaceMarine because this isn't as big as a 1911.

[@stacybrown3714]

Okay so my Colt 22 ACE made for civilians in 1937 is this size. It has more "1911a1" style than this example, but it is this size. I know from 1931 to 1941 only 10000ish were made. I didn't know about this"1910" prototype. Thanks for bringing this gun to us. It appears there is more to this story.

[@mikepette4422]

Ahhh yes the famous 9.8 mm cartridge ! So many of us grew up on the wonderful 9.8 mm errrrr

[@joshbarnett1090]

The last time I was this early, the 1911 was an ideal service pistol.

[@icepicjoey]

It still is. I carried one before I retired and still do.

[@randomprojectsusa5196]

Underrated comment, even though it’s 8 minutes old lol

[@Minong_Manitou_Mishepeshu]

Still is buddles.

[@TheDocPlatypus]

@@icepicjoey Im not knowledgeable about guns (all my knowledge comes from this channel) but I think the keyword here is "ideal" I feel

[@Brawler_1337]

@@icepicjoey I wouldn’t say it’s ideal, but considering how minor the improvements to the Browning system have been over the last hundred years (linkless barrels and double stack magazines being the biggest) you certainly aren’t at all far behind the curve with one. There’s a reason why so many new pistols are effectively product improved 1911s: Browning’s system is just awesome.

[@Nate-bd8fg]

God damn that gun has never even seen a bullet. Looks like it just came of the conveyer

[@richardtoms9161]

I have always loved the 1911 pistol. I have fairly large beefy hands and the size of the gun is just really comfortable to use for me.

[@xb0xisbetter]

I was going to say the same thing. The 1911 fits me like a glove. I think it is poetic given that I grew up drooling over the things until I finally bought a Colt as my very first firearm.

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

The cool thing about the M1911 is that it fits smaller hands, too.

[@fishdisc7022]

Wow, didn't know Colt started it's work on 10mm in 1910

[@IndianaJoe3]

I think I found Fireplace Guy's next gun. :)

[@brogeoti]

Ian, fascinating pistol: it exhibits M1911A1 Transitional features such as the arched mainspring housing, the extended grip safety (beavertail), the stamped trigger, the full-checkered walnut grip panels and the slide roll markings of pistols produced in the 1920's while not having the finger cutouts behind the triggerguard.

[@brianbetts3444]

Saw this in the current RIA auction catalog I got in the mail and was thinking this would be a interesting gun for Ian to make a video about. Lol. Thanks for the great videos.

[@bkilpatrick68]

Interesting it has an arched mainspring housing. Guessing that was a part of the work done in 1929.

[@turbogerbil2935]

It'd be interesting to have an update on the realised auction price. I'm guessing that pistol will go for a very large number.

[@JimYeats]

Yes. It will go for not one, not two, but five boxes of 9mm ammo.

[@georgesakellaropoulos8162]

@@JimYeats Now it's 10 rounds in a baggie.

[@haydnjenkins7607]

I owned a Star. 380 scaled down 1911 pattern , much smaller than your Colt, gorgeous little, gun every time I decided to sell it I'd go to the range to give it a goodbye shoot, and realise how nice it shot as a backup pistol loved it until the 1995 UK handgun ban.

[@zacharyrollick6169]

That cross hatching on the trigger makes me drool.

[@5_qm610]

I just watched your video on the history of Colt, good timing with releasing this!

[@ditzydoo4378]

Ah! this is why with the 1929 museum re-work of this gun we see an "arched" main spring housing, part of the 1911-A1 make-up over the older straight housing 1911's.

[@F1ghteR41]

You're correct, the original ones didin't have all that: www.rockislandauction.com/detail/56/3554/experimental-colt-model-1910-98-mm-pistol-serial-number-4

[@MrLobstermeat]

OMG that thing as nice as they come! Wow

[@michaelpaz8940]

The Baby Nambu to the 1911’s Papa Nambu with the 50 GI 1911 being the Grandpa Nambu

[@methodeetrigueur1164]

That really reminds me the FN « Grand Browning » 1910 in 9.65 x 23mm. Ian put a link at the end of the video.

[@Soravia]

1911 was meant to be made with American 10mm Auto. Browning just didn't have the powder to make it happen.

[@wilsonj4705]

And Colt mucks up another opportunity for a winner. Amazing they lasted as long as they did.

[@stevenrush9862]

I think they should build this pistol and cartridge again . I want one .

[@joepiper6064]

Just bought a Browning 1911-380 85% smaller ! love it!

[@dda774]

Enjoyed this, as I do with then all. You mentioned where this could have gone. Well I have a Browning 1911 - .380 that is about 85% of my full size 1911. It is a pleasure to shoot, when I could get .380 ammo. It's small and light enough to be a carry gun.

[@victorvonmagnum6270]

Now that is a true forlorn gun. Dare I even call it a forgotten weapon?

[@loupiscanis9449]

Thank you , Ian

[@BatCaveOz]

Excellent episode... I really like the story telling style.

[@renegade44040]

Well the big question is where is that 38 the salesman checked out? That's got to be a special gun. A holy grail.

[@comiketiger]

What a beautiful pistol! Thanks for showing this!

[@tigerman3]

Definitely a "forgotten" part of 1911 lore. It seems to have futuristic look of the 1911A1. (Arched mainspring housing?) Thanks Ian!

[@Robert32064]

That mainspring housing makes you scratch your head. Colt evidently considered it right off the bat, unless it was changed in the refurb in 1929. It has the short trigger, too.

[@TWX1138]

@@Robert32064 I'm betting on the refurb, especially if they were using it for essentially marketing for the new pistols.

[@Robert32064]

@@TWX1138 www.rockislandauction.com/detail/56/3554/experimental-colt-model-1910-98-mm-pistol-serial-number-4 Note the mainspring housing, trigger length and grip safety tang on this pictured 1910.

[@randykreps3519]

Thanks Ian! Now you made me want a Commander in 9mm. Always informative and entertaining! Keep up the great work.

[@russbilzing5348]

It's always fun when Ian gets so involved in the presentation of something so rare and previously unknown to the rest of the world that he has to be careful not to swallow his tongue. Now, I'm 6'3" and I can one-hand a basketball, so you might think I'd love a good sized pistol. That is, indeed, true, and a 1911 is just fine in that area, as is a double stacked P-14 or a Coonan. I'm not sure why it is that I prefer a TT-33, then. Somehow, I've come to prefer the fit and feel of this Russian variant over the more likely 1911. So, when I saw the difference in size comparison, I knew I'd just love to try this on. Never gonna happen, I know, but now I have that unscratchable itch...

[@KurtOnoIR]

That's a slick piece. Perfect size.

[@The_Modeling_Underdog]

A true beauty of a pistol.

[@hughbarton5743]

What a beauty!!!! Wow.... Thanks, Ian!

[@mattdirks7896]

actually a classic looking 1911 (maybe with a double stack) but scaled down around the 9mm cartridge seems like a really nice gun.

[@simoncleret]

Browning currently make scaled-down 1911's in .380 ACP, if anyone is interested. They're 85% scale.

[@eisenkrieg553]

That's a shame because that frame size would be just perfect for my smaller size hands. That tiny bit of difference would be great for handling it better.

[@DH-xw6jp]

@@zoiders girth is always more important than length. Always.

[@AnimeFan_2013]

6:02 - lol I should add this to my wishlist, just seems neat

[@TheEpictrooper]

Reminds me a lot of the modern Browning Black Label 1911 in .380acp. It is a shrunk down 1911 that surprisingly fits well in the hand. (Which surprised me as I have quite the meathooks)

[@hughesr.6656]

Or the Springfield EMP.

[@fireguzzi.]

I was coming to make this same comment. Those black labels are very well done and great shooting little guns! Another "wish I hadn't sold it" situation.

[@KageMinowara]

Watching Forgotten Weapons is what has made me want to learn gunsmithing. So I can make replicas of all these obscure, but wonderful firearms.

[@randomidiot8142]

Stop wanting and start doing, get a move on messing stuff up and getting that learning curve pointed upwards 👍

[@AlessandroBottoni]

Very interesting gun. It's sad it never reached the market. Thanks for this video.

[@ericcook1300]

This might have been said but the Springfield EMP 4” seems to be a modern equivalent.

[@timmytyphoon]

Ian, I almost never comment on videos but I had to say this was awesome. Now all we need to do is convince somebody to mass produce this gun and I bet there would be one in every nightstand.

[@kingsolomoniii8594]

Browning kind of did this for their 1911-380 pistol. It’s a scaled down 1911 for 380. Fun guns to shoot.

[@stevevanosdall416]

Seems like the closest thing to that would be a Springfield EMP; which, as I understand it, is a scaled down 1911 in 9mm. (They also make 'standard' 1911's in 9mm...) Kinda the same concept... but backwards.

[@harrystanton205]

It would be super cool if CZ/Colt brought this back to market in 9mm. It would be crazy expensive and probably not worth it over the newer fixes to 9mm 1911 problems, but it would be really interesting to see nonetheless.

[@JackedALF]

Reminds me of the Browning 1911-380, but 100 years earlier.

[@donovanchilton5817]

Great little pistol.

[@nicholasfoldes2970]

Fair quality and reasonable caliber for the times it was produced

[@Gordonseries385]

Cool history! Thank you Ian Take Care

[@yosoyinfinitus8927]

Gonna be my first handgun. It runs it’s generations in our fam

[@JerryEricsson]

it reminds me a lot of a Colt Combat Commander in .38 Super my old police Chief carried when I first signed onto the police force in my home town. I got hired because I was the only Vietnam Vet who applied and they had a special deal with the VA where the fed would pay half my wages for the first 9 months of employment and I would need to be employed for one year or they would have to refund the money to the Fed. The Chief's pistol was nickeled and was very pretty indeed, we used to kid him that he carried a pimp gun but he never took it very seriously.

[@trooperdgb9722]

I like his technical descriptions... "equally squished"..

[@JerryEricsson]

Reminds me a lot of the little Star BM and BMK that I had, my Star PD was a bit smaller and the little Citadel that I have now is smaller but none of them look as sleek as that 1910. Comparison, the M1911 is like an Impala, the 1910 like the Corvette

[@Adf8702]

Love the history and storytelling. Super interesting. Thanks!

[@itsapittie]

The .38 ACP was no slouch for its day. It clocked a 125 grain slug at a nominal 1,100 fps which makes it comparable to the 9mm parabellum's 124 grains at 1,150 fps. A 9mm in that slightly smaller frame size could have been a winner for some European military and even the .38 ACP should have interested someone.

[@thelemon0001]

The best handgun ever, but with slightly less of it.

[@Shootsmith]

Browning currently makes their similar 1911-380 that is a 15% scaled down 1911

[@ScottKenny1978]

As does Rock Island.

[@paulbervid1610]

Ian you are a genius, the should have called it the "squished ".

[@RefreshingDietDrPepper]

The last time I was this early, Hungarian Dragunovs cost less than $5,000 to buy from an importer.

[@JimYeats]

Well played. I wish you all success in trolling MAC for years to come!

[@philiptynan9159]

Wow, what a beautiful gun.

[@Mikkemeister]

Now there's an idea for CZ/Colt, make them in 9x19, slightly modernized (trigger, beavertail, sights). 😁

[@FireflyActual]

Would be interesting to have a look at an early 1911 in .38 Super.

[@williammcdorman6426]

Nicely made, must be nice to have craftsmen to make you something like that just to give them some mental exercise.

[@283blood]

Apparently they fired this thing once every five years, then cleaned it with baby soft cotton balls, before storing it in a royal velvet box. I have a 38 Super 1911 that is half the age of this pistol that doesn't look that good. Props to who ever owned this for gun care.

[@calvinbrodhead6199]

It is a really interesting story and a very beautiful gun. Thanks again for the content

[@andywindes4968]

My great-grandfather, Will Zumwalt, and his brother Alec were ranchers in the Ft. Sumner area of New Mexico in the early 1900’s. In 1909, they were in a gunfight with another pair of brothers named Hall, and the Hall’s lost. (The local sheriff counted 21 holes in the body of one of the Hall’s.) Family legend has it that my great-grandfather and his brother were armed with .380 Colts, but I have questioned this for years. The .380 had only been introduced the year before, and it always seemed doubtful to me that two young ranchers operating in the far west would have the latest Colt pistols. It seems far more likely they were armed with a 1900, 1902, or 1903 Colt in .38 ACP. Unfortunately, the trial records for Will (he was charged with manslaughter and subsequently acquitted) make no mention of either the guns or the cartridges. I wonder what an old west historian would have to say about this? The Hall Brothers, legend has it, were armed with Colt SAA’s. It doesn’t seems like a fair fight either way.

[@billshepherd4331]

Yeah. I want one, in 38 Super/38ACP!

[@fortressalaska9822]

FN does make an 85% sized 1911 for the .380 ACP, a very nice gun.

[@michailpanchev9952]

What a nifty handgun!

[@jandrosdumb]

Year 3000: On today's forgotten weapon, we have the SCAR

[@DK-gy7ll]

This pistol has obvious post-1925 features on it... arched mainspring housing, A1 grip safety, thumb safety and slide stop... and the front part of the slide is darker meaning it was heat treated which Colt didn't start doing until 1925 on the 1911A1. Also the rollmarks are definitely post-WW1 era. I believe this pistol was actually newly-made around 1929 like you mentioned at the end of your video.

[@ScorpionCR1983]

I have the same but in 45acp caliber made in 1917 it belonged to Richard Roberts Morrison.

[@RalphReagan]

So beautiful!! Beautiful ❤

[@seekertwo1]

Excellent video. I wonder what would have happened if Colt had introduced this model in 9mm instead of the Commander for the post-WWII pistol trials.. ..

[@williamstuart9812]

Beautiful. Looks like they updated it to A-1.

[@mazkact]

Precursor to the Browning and RIA .380 1911'sh pistols. Sweet.

[@charles_wipman]

Looks spectacular; didn't Dillinger have one in FA and in .38 SPC?.

[@RiderOftheNorth1968]

No. .38 Special is a revolver cartridge. And an exellent one too.

[@TheLambdaGuy]

The design hasn't changed at all

[@stevenclark2188]

That surface finish and engraving on the slide looks like it was just made a year ago.

[@markspencer3612]

It's also got the extended tang on the grip safety .

[@usbiv223]

“Equally Squished” is the name of my new band!

[@TLBN_J14000BLK]

My favorite gun

[@paulferris8180]

Nice condition. You can find some nice weapons.

[@gagida1829]

Ian, could you do the bolt action m1 garand made by South Korea in the 1950's? I'm pretty sure its name was Daehan rifle 대한 소총

[@proCaylak]

if he can find it in a workable condition, I believe he'll do a video about it.

[@killzoneisa]

Used to be a video but now be made private.

[@TheDocPlatypus]

Bolt action... ... garand? Now I definitely want a video on it

[@gagida1829]

@@TheDocPlatypus there ya go kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4m8in6Cf9WjapI kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4m8in6Cf9WjapI

[@gagida1829]

@@killzoneisa which one?

[@thompsonjerry3412]

Odd that it has the later characteristics of the short trigger and hump in the mainspring housing.

[@thebichocr7659]

This the OG