Mark Millar's Old Man Logan is Edgelord Nihilism - Comic Tropes (Episode 40)

With Logan hitting movie theaters this week, it seemed like a good opportunity to look at some of its inspiration, the storyline Old Man Logan by writer Mark Millar. I take a look at the 3rd issue in the 8-issue storyline so that the full details of the story aren't spoiled. I think the story is pretty interesting but it's also pretty bleak. In the video, I argue that Millar's writing is generally cynical, if not outright mean-spirited.
6:06 First trope discussed - Bleak World
11:06 Second trope discussed - Cynicism
16:12 Third trope discussed - "Realism"
22:44 Fourth trope discussed - Excessive Revenge
/ comictropes
/ comictropesshow

[@chadalpha7983]

Dr. Doom wanted Minneapolis because he is a huge Prince fan

[@trobeytrotter13]

Partly correct, he wanted to know the proper way to put Mr. Fantastic on a stick.

[@kelzuya]

So he could clear all his samples for the new Madvillany project

[@sodapinez2598]

@@kelzuya MF D00M

[@KevinJennissen]

Doctor Doom would be lucky to have Minneapolis.

[@socialmedia4637]

@@KevinJennissen One month later...🔥💥🚧🚨🚓😷

[@Batsage]

Millar reuses the "every single supervillain teams up" plot a few times, too! To me it betrays something really shallow about his writing: as if every villain is the exact same brand of evil, so of course they're all fine with slaughtering all the heroes and brutally conquering the world together.

[@PeachyBeins]

Super late reply. But him thinking all villains are teh same brand if evil breaks down so much when you know he made Magneto(Jewish holocaust survivor)and Dr Doom(rromani who the nazis also persecuted) team up freaking red skull THE ACTUAL LITERAL NAZI WTF. Also why would Kingpin be part of this teh guy is usually content with being his big money bags crime lord self. Argh Mark Millar STOP

[@Sartorius8772]

It’s a troppe that he obssess over because it Was a seminal Moment of is childhood. In an interview Millard told that when he was a small kid he thought superheroes where based on real events, and he asked himself why superheroes weren’t around. Is older brother told him that they where all dead, killed in a final showdown against all their unified rouge galleries. So I think that this whole thing stuck inside him and he like to use it over and over again. Frankly I think the concept can be used well, but he literally overuse it…. In is over the top edgy boy way.

[@D3wd20p]

@@Sartorius8772 That's kind of cute, really. Pity where it led him...

[@apolloforabetterfuture4814]

@@Sartorius8772 as an older brother I wish I was that devious lol

[@Sartorius8772]

@@D3wd20p yeah, also because when he write non edgy stories they are actually quite wholesome and enjoyable Xd!

[@Redem10]

You just know that Hugh Jackman was super disapointed they coudn't do Wa Wa Wolvereine

[@ComicTropes]

Redem10 It's the only way to get him back.

[@Redem10]

hey can you put time stamp in the description, somtime I want to skip over the story since I already know it, but jut want to hear you talk about tropes

[@ComicTropes]

Sure thing. Added the time stamps to the description.

[@Redem10]

thank hope future video have them

[@clivebonham9944]

Loves his musicails.

[@PantheonFefnir]

I more so wanna know WHY Doctor Doom wants any part of America at all. He's got Latveria already, it's not like he needs a part of America so he can rule over something...

[@darkhearsttoys5224]

Latveria is small, US is huge.

[@guanoguy4800]

@dragon stare24 If they wrote that story, with Doctor Doom gathering forces to take down evil, that'd be an interesting read.

[@realone-6928]

dragon stare24 What was the name of the series if you remember?

[@TulipQ]

Doom just wanted to expand his dominion. Stupid Reed Richards doesn't have even a small dominion, but Dr Doom controls both the proud nation of Latvia and a sizeable portion of the Louisiana Purchase territory. Surely Sue Storm will realize how Doom is truly the superior man now!

[@princeblackelf4265]

I always assumed Doom's territory was more like....his slice of the pie, but rules it through proxies from latveria

[@c.alexandros4]

Millar had a hard-on for Super villains killing the heroes, since it was basically the same plot as Wanted.

[@redjirachi1]

Oh God, I want Linkara to review it simply because even if he devolves into cringe ranting about it it would at least be entertaining cringe

[@AndrewJohnson-oy8oj]

He also had a hard-on for superheroes getting bones broken and having their masks yanked off.

[@Toki-Ralte]

now he's doing a villain crossover with Big Game.. the art is fantastic though

[@rorylumley4727]

Ultron 8 is a former villan who is a better father than the real father. He is marvels picollo.

[@manuelrobledo8072]

Rory Lumley Also he's a realy nice man

[@Argos-xb8ek]

He's a simp

[@deltaone2837]

That makes him kind of a snail?

[@jouflow]

@@deltaone2837 this guy 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@Corthmic]

@@deltaone2837 Or maybe a Yoshi?

[@shoresean1237]

Like Wanted, this was an Ultimate Villain Sue situation. The thing I can't stand about Millar's work is that evil wins simply by moving fwd. That's it. Be it Nemesis, Crossed, Wanted, or Old Man Logan, it turns into the reverse of the old serials, except instead of being boring for the hero's pre-ordained victory, it becomes mind-numbing for the nest of casual betrayals and atrocities contained therein. Also, villains cooperate to the Nth Degree? Some villains aren't all that bad, like Constrictor. Some are blazingly incompetent. Many hate each other more than they hate heroes. Many are agenda-driven, their personal goals sacred. Some will sell each other out for laughs or money. I don't think Millar did some of the Post-Secret Wars 2015 Old Man Logans, but one flashback had Magneto aiding a HYDRA attack ship, with Enchantress taking out Punisher and Daredevil. So, Magneto helps out a Nazi-spin off, and Amora can be convinced to bother with a blind mortal and one with guns? That was still in Millar's style. Alan Moore is the king of deconstruction, but he at least seems to have some affection for what he's taking apart. If Millar wrote Franklin Richards' birth, he would alien-chest-burst out of Sue, then bring her back to life while reminding his family to think 'happy thoughts' to keep her alive.

[@superbad8008]

I liked Old Man Logan, Wanted, and Nemesis, mostly because of how off the wall they where in comparison to the heavy amounts of comics similar in plot that I had read up to that point. I think you do have a solid point though; too much death and violence makes you kinda get the urge to roll your eyes, especially so when famous, established characters are involved. It’s one thing to see nameless heroes and villains get offed, and another to see Spider Girl decapitating Kingpin.

[@SchulzEricT]

Yeah, it's really edgy and gritty, in the way that "edgy" and "gritty" have come to be defined (ie lazy, uncreative, and shitty), simply because it's different. Dude says it makes sense that villains will outnumber heroes, but... I mean, the X-Men? Had, like, somewhere between 5 and 30 offshoot *teams* - they had to number in the thousands, easily. There weren't nearly that many X-Men villains, not even close. Probably not even if you make it a binary thing and count non-heroes as villains (like if you counted, say, Catwoman as a villain because she's not a hero, which is of course stupid... I know there's probably a few Marvel examples but none come to mind save... I can't remember their names, dudes who lived in the sewers). He - and others, like that douche who wrote the Old Man Batman graphic novel - seem like they are trying to be gritty in the positive sense: realistic, grounded, with strong (ie 3-dimensional, well-written characters, not necessarily physically strong) but then they take this ridiculous binary approach when it comes to villains, like anybody who isn't a hero must therefore be an unrepentant, irredeemable villain... and they all can somehow put aside their egos and individual goals to come together to defeat all these heroes. It's ridiculous and outlandish.

[@shoresean1237]

There's value in a grim story, if thought through and done well. You can be horrified by an awesome story. Many stories where the heroes win have hideous implications if you drill down a bit. Oddly, one of the most off-putting What If's I can recall is Volume 1-46, an AU where May died but Ben lived. It was off-putting because at the end, Peter's world was much better off for having Ben around. I don't denounce just because evil wins and good loses. I only do that when the evil is like that Prince Of Space character, just laughing off all efforts at opposing him. When the villain wages a tough campaign and pulls it out, reluctant kudos. When they are the equivalent of that serial killer screensaver from Virtuosity--not so much. So instead of just complaining, let me try and feebly improve the work of a writer a jillion times more known than I'll ever be: Old Man Logan comes about because of an attempt at a villain alliance, which fails, and places the villains on high alert as all their old rivalries kick up hard. Their heroes catch wind of this, and then, throughout America, places are ruined because they all have their 'final battles' all at once. Logan and the others who make it through are left to stare in stupid wonder at what their continuous battles have wrought. Then onto the story.

[@Crowley9]

Also, I think many villains quite like living in modern society and would rather not see it collapse to Mad Max levels. I also wonder how exactly so few villains manage to govern such vast areas of land that probably still have millions of people living there. Not necessarily in terms of power, but in terms of organization. The villains shown in the comic feel like nothing more than local warlords.

[@macoy3943]

Baron Zemo: So Amora we’re gonna need you for something. Enchantress: Yes? Baron Zemo: So I know you’re an all powerful goddess and all that. But, I’m gonna need you to take one some street level heroes. One is blind and the other shoots stuff. But don’t worry we’ll be sending Jigsaw and the Owl after Hulk and Thor. I’m such a great genius. My planning is inconceivably brilliant. Mwahahaha!!!!!

[@bobdrantz]

Clearly, Doctor Doom is a huge Minnesota Vikings fan.

[@210SAi]

Skol!!!!!!!

[@Gemidori]

@@210SAi SKOLLLLL

[@tasman001]

Ah, so he likes to suffer, and make others suffer

[@TheLongBallofTheLaw]

"Hulk smash!" "She-Hulk smash too!" *Their eyes meet...*

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

**SAXOPHONE COMMENCE**

[@enjitodoroki202]

Hulk's smash

[@lmao2302]

Then they smash.

[@IzayaLee1725]

Alabama 100

[@MachineMan-mj4gj]

@@IzayaLee1725 That's sisters, this is cousins, so it's West Virginia Take me home, country roads....

[@brew1116]

Thank you for calling out his "What are you talking about?" trope. Every once in a while I decide to give Millar another chance, and then that pops up, often inappropriately, and all the wind goes out of my sails.

[@TulipQ]

Slight correction on Red Son: Superman lands in a Ukrainian farm, which is part of the Soviet Union but is not Russia.

[@stueygriffith4671]

🙄

[@RoyalKnightVIII]

A good distinction, the USSR was much more complex than just being Russia

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

@@RoyalKnightVIII Definitely. It's actually really interesting in terms of political geography and just regular ole' geography. It's especially interesting to compare and contrast it with other similarly-sized polities structurally.

[@Turt3752]

The Ukraine isn’t part of Russia? Tell Russia that...

[@aureliomanalo]

*imperialism intensifies*

[@Phantom9252]

when you're a teenager and you first read Millar's work you think "Oh wow! it's so grim and realistic! Hell yeah!" Then you get older and you read more of Millar's work, and you realize no, it really isn't. It's so GRIMM and DAHRK that it circles back in on itself and becomes almost laughable.

[@znightowlz6585]

Phantom9252 it’s what the kids call “edgy”. It’s comical almost. And if you ask me, uncreative in some instances...such as the dialogue

[@felipea1399]

I love Red Son though. Its dark but all actions come from character and most characters are very understandable

[@marfaxa]

but, remember when you found that thing when you were 14 or 15 that just spoke to you? It was so powerful. And it seemed like anyone who wasn't into it was an idiot and everyone who was into it was automatically a kindred spirit?

[@piperian3962]

The end where Hulk Eats Logan could not possibly have been taken seriously.

[@piperian3962]

@@felipea1399, I’m shocked Red Son and Old Man Logan are written by the same guy.

[@devonhilt9389]

I'm really glad that Logan chose to embrace optimism despite the darkness of the story

[@HappyCynic]

They let Mark Millar write stories for 2000 ad. It nearly killed off the comic.

[@charlesdunn9222]

Explain

[@Dreigonix]

At this point, the name “Miller/Millar” is just a comic book curse.

[@greasey8695]

Dreigonix Hey, half of Miller's work was good.

[@yggdrasil3]

I like Empress and I'm glad Millar and Miller exist, otherwise we would not have this conversation.

[@mcpics4448]

Dreigonix hey like 9 out of 10 of his work get a superior adaptation

[@thecollector4332]

@@greasey8695 Key word: *Was*. His work is garbage now.

[@nataliealphonse4634]

Yeah no. Not when names like Land exist lol

[@NelsonStJames]

Back in the Miller era of comics a lot of fans and a lot of creators had the philosophy that gritty, bleak and dark were "realistic", and a lot of fans still hold to that, but I don't think that is what Mark Millar is doing. I think his books are that way because he likes it; rather in the same way that Tarantino likes grindhouse.

[@princeblackelf4265]

Agreed , I've always just gotten the impression this is what Millar likes, he writes stories that he wants to read, and what he wants to read are this kind of stuff. I personally LOVE Old Man Logan, I think the ideas in it, are incredibly interesting, especially if you're deep lore nerd for Marvel, with how it does a bunch of what if/turn left stuff and to see the names of the territories and cities within.

[@Galvatronover]

At least in the movie there was no good and evil side it was shades of grey in the comic the creators said iron man was the bad guy even though he did everything wrong

[@nataliealphonse4634]

Thank you. And most of them that deal with established characters are AU so you can straight up ignore them if that bothers you, let tropes be tropes sometimes yall

[@fica1137]

By Millar's own account, when he gave a copy of the first issue [The Unfunnies] to his wife, she read the first six pages of it, and then threw the book back at him while calling it "the most horrible thing she'd ever read in her life" as he frantically attempted to explain to her that "the crow was sucking cock for a REASON." This about sums up Mark Millar in a nutshell

[@buhnana6117]

@@fica1137 the unfunnies has gotta be one of the worst written comics of all time

[@marcosrecio4062]

I dont think Daredevil and punisher were good ol' Matt and Frank

[@joaquinperez9382]

There's a panel where they show daredevil's corpse and I think they mention that these people are wannabes

[@royjones8312]

Agreed

[@julimayor]

Yeah they look too young to be them. Also new daredevil has a weird glowing eye so it couldn't be matt murdock

[@MrHantz101]

For the rejected ideas, you forgot to mention Baby Wolverine, Wolverine On Ice, and Wolverine Saves Christmas

[@Tuckbro]

You forgot "Oh No, Its The Jack o Lantern, Wolverine!" A charming Halloween special where Wolverine waits all night for Jack o Lantern to show up, but he never does. 10/10 all time classic

[@TheWonkster]

Millar strikes me as a misanthrope who thinks his abject nihilism and deep cynical beliefs alone make him smarter than everyone else. It doesn’t make his stories bad, but you can kinda feel him looking down his nose at you while you’re reading them.

[@gelusvenn5063]

So what you're saying is that he would understand the brilliance that is Rick and Morty. (Sorry, sorry I had to, it was such a perfect opening that even the 10 month necro was worth it)

[@themoofs6925]

DUDE! Couldn’t have said it better myself. I’ve always thought, “If he likes to poke fun at the genre and be so cynical about it why doesn’t he just stop writing?” Lmao

[@logankingcash]

Could be worse. At least he’s not Garth Ennis😂

[@BosSupes]

@@logankingcash Nah Ennis is better

[@DoctorMooCow]

100%

[@RobotsPajamas]

I really liked Acts of Vengeance when I was a kid. And it doesn't make sense that the villains would carve up the US and then not fight each other to be the top dog for control of it all.

[@drdoomprevails1439]

Yeah Doom only taking a slice of territory is completely out of character.

[@datniggakermit5287]

@CIA Informant 1234566533256666 Doom would want the world not just america what lol

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

Maybe they decided to give peace a chance.

[@redjirachi1]

In well-written stories the fact the villains would fight over their victory is part of why they lose to the heroes teaming up; heroes tend to be less conceited

[@charlesdunn9222]

Yeah. Only DC villains do that.

[@schizoreze]

I'm sorry. I just could not imagine Magneto working side by side with Red Skull.

[@frogurtcremebrulee5252]

Yep. And the fact that they killed all the heroes, including Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and Polaris. God I hate this fucking comic.

[@HCC788]

Fascinating. I had heard of Old Man Logan. Of course, I hadn't read it. I don't mind post-apocalyptic dystopias. I may have enjoyed this story, despite the violence. The inclusion of the Spider-buggy is brilliant. One major problem with post-apocalyptic dystopias is that they can be humorless and unrelentingly dark. Even in a story that is intended to be dark, a reader needs a few moments to come up for air. I'm looking forward to the movie.

[@MrSafior]

The story was pretty cool but the end was crap.

[@mr.smithgnrsmith7808]

Omg violence......mommy help...FOH

[@nedinnis6752]

As a person who read it, it's pretty much like Mad Max or the Dawn of the Dead in that it's dark, but fun. I personally enjoyed it, it wasn't necessarily a depression fest like Ultimatum.

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

I think a dystopia that is unrelentingly dark and especially humorless is like a painting with everything but the shadows cut out. There's so much potential for absurdist, situational humor. Brazil comes to mind. So dark or ridiculous that you can't help but laugh.

[@nataliealphonse4634]

@@fuzzydunlop7928 soooo a really beautiful looking abstract painting? Cool

[@edmaldonado8207]

I really don't like Mark Millar. His comics are often incredibly mean spirited and tries really hard to be deconstructionist, but fails to be clever or thought provoking in any way.

[@PacisJusticia]

Like oh you replaced all the fun with grotesque violence, you sure showed those comics!

[@princeblackelf4265]

I actually don't think he's trying to be deconstructionist at all, I think he just indulges in the kind of stories he's wanting to tell and isn't trying to deconstruct anything.

[@tasman001]

Total hack of the highest order. Like many comics authors unfortunately, he has some really cool ideas, but he cannot execute them for shit, OR write people so they actually seem like relatable human beings.

[@Lordalexzader]

Also, it wasn't just about numbers. The villains 'swapped' heroes. The heroes were ambushed, near simultaneously, by enemies that they didn't know the skill set/MO of.

[@Nightscream72]

*** 20:21: "By the way, that's Frank MILLER, not Mill-AR -- no relation.." *** Mark Millar's name is not pronounced "Mil-AR". It's pronounced Miller. I know this because I asked him on the second occasion that I photographed him, during his April 25, 2013 signing at Midtown Comics in Manhattan.

[@aureliomanalo]

I don't get why English has to be so needlessly complicated

[@CAMSLAYER13]

I think he does it to differentiate

[@CAMSLAYER13]

aureliomanalo it's been around a long time and quite a few other languages have had a strong influence

[@MUTEscifan31W]

Speaking of re-using tropes. All villains teaming up to outnumber and defeat the heroes was the history pre-Wanted.

[@kbuttstadt]

And he is using it yet again for Big Game, which is somehow getting good reviews.

[@joemorgan2390]

Does the comic explicitly state the two guys in the Kingpin's arena are the actual Daredevil and Punisher? They look kinda young. It would make sense if they were next-generation wannabes or just guys they put in the costumes for the hell of it.

[@DEADEYESTUDIO]

Joe Morgan I could see that. It’s also probably kingpins way of saying”fuck being a hero. This is what heroes get in my domain”

It is explicitly state that this are Daredevil and Punisher

[@blossomingbeelzebub]

@ no it's very clearly stated that they are allies to Ashley, the daughter of Hawkeye. She was kept imprisoned for a later punishment from the new Kingpin, while he made examples of her two allies, who dressed as Punisher and Daredevil, and were killed my Kingpin in the arena. They were not Matt and Frank.

[@nataliealphonse4634]

@ you literally see the real DDs corpse.

[@MrFirefly3000]

It's not the real dd and punisher. It's wannabes that joined spiderman's daughter.

[@lostdrewid]

I do feel like the reveal about why Logan stopped being Wolverine is enough to explain why this dark future Acts of Vengeance succeeds. I'm sure it's removed enough that I can get into spoilers [especially since the movie Logan is ALSO long past when discussing spoilers is verboten]. Basically, Wolverine completely destroyed one of the largest superhero teams on the planet, leaving that much more of a gap in superhero defense. Mysterio's powers are actually very terrifying when you think of it, especially when someone isn't used to them like Spider-Man is. Catch the wrong hero off-guard and it's conceivable that there will be massive casualties. Now, the counter-argument is, shouldn't one of the X-Men he was busy killing have been able to contain him? Sure, maybe they didn't want to kill him while he was out of control, but surely one of them had a power that could stop him for a time. But putting that aside, if one of the biggest superhero teams on the planet was wiped out in one night, united villains would have a much easier time finishing off the rest of them. Still bleak as shit though. Especially if some of them were kept around juuuust long enough to brutally murder in front of our eyes. 'Cause that timing isn't suspicious as shit, Millar.

[@LupineShadowOmega]

My issue with that though isn't that he should never be casually killing the people he casually killed, but also the fact that the X-Men are a much bigger team than that. Even having killed that many X-Men there are still hundreds. And that's not even counting students. Where would the X-Forces? X-Factors? New Mutants, and etc. have just gone to? How about other offsite teams of X-Men? So even then...too many mutants for them to just handwave that Wolverine killed the X-Men.

[@princeblackelf4265]

All those teams are never in the x-mansion all at once, and there's always been a "current" roster, so from a certain point of view, yes he killed " all " of the x-men. The current roster he slaughtered. I fully believe he Logan however WOULD be tearing through an army of invading villains willy nilly, especially with how heightened the situation was all across the globe at that point. The other heroes or x-men may have been killed elsewhere in different battles or situations, but Millar shouldn't have to detail literally every character that's been associated with the x-men were there and heLogan killed them all

[@LupineShadowOmega]

@@princeblackelf4265 again, the idea of it is silly in and of itself. Because one your theory about other X-Men being killed other places. Never addressed so if its never addressed it has no place in the story. Two, even if we're talking rosters, again Wolverine shouldn't be capable of killing the people he killed in that room most of them outclass him in ways that are laughable. Hell, Iceman is in that pile and Iceman doesn't even have a physical body anymore. He could have made a near staggering around of clones of himself and each and everyone of those would be capable of freezing Logan solid and this is without harming him further than his healing factor can go. Storm? Colossus? Gambit? Cyclops? Psylocke? The list keeps getting longer of people that would easily be able to take him down individually, let alone as a group, and that goes double after he's actually killed someone.

[@princeblackelf4265]

It is addressed, just in the sense that the other heroes fell in general war, also we're talking about a sneak attack, if Wolverine were to start hacking through people with their guards down and not ready, many of the people you listed could have been killed , even Colossus if his skin hasn't turned metal yet. It's also conceivable that Mysterio was using illusions on them as well ( although this would have been better addressed if explicitly stated) and they weren't entirely sure what was happening either.

[@alrackey5606]

I would like to say that, due to the fact that magneto is SUPER old, with him being a child during ww2, so being 50 years older would mean his body would be significantly older. So the idea of a younger, more connected male who has taken the name "Kingpin" is not out of the question. He could have easily killed his caretakers and murdered Magneto with his barehands. Or Magneto could have died of a disease from his older age. It's not out of the question completely, and plausible even, but i can also see why you could find it strange.

[@dissonantvibe8585]

Magneto was actually restored to a younger body in an early 80s issue of Uncanny X-men so he's probably effectively in his 40s on Marvel Earth 616

[@princeblackelf4265]

even with his youth having been restored, he'd still have effectively been 80 something years old again by the time this story is happening. If he's less lucid or more frail as one would assume of someone of that age, killing even a tremendously powerful mutant who is in that state is conceivable. a plastic bullet from a plastic gun via assassination?

[@Clay3613]

Why the hell would Kingpin want the Pacific Northwest? Nothing out there of value but trees! Speaking of a black Kingpin, I really liked the portrayal in Daredevil (2003).

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

To be fair, those are some bombass next-level trees. Those are the types of trees that evolve into Ents. Maybe he's really become an outdoorsy type of person now that he's a despot. He controls a lot of America's best camping and hiking lands. I could imagine Kingpin in a set of cargo shorts and a padded vest, flannel underneath crowned with a fisherman's boonie loaded to the gills with lures and commemorative travel pins.

[@benhopper3363]

He was a big grunge fan.

[@readhistory2023]

Washington State is one of three states that's totally self sufficient in food, water, power and has a large manufacturing/industrial base and the Hanford Nuclear plant. Need some nukes? It has easy access to the ocean with a extensive inland waterway that includes the Columbia river for shipping goods to and from inland areas. If he wants to rule a empire vs just a city he needs those kind of resources. You were asking why the Kingpin would want the Pacific Northwest?

[@ColeVecsion]

like i always say, mark millar is a guy with good ideas and absolute poor execution, he strikes me as someone who should pitch a story overview and just let others do the rest, he needs to be very hands off and maybe get some anti-depressents

[@Mario_Angel_Medina]

"Mark Millar's _modus operandi_ is to have a cool concept for a story, write a comic that varely takes advantage of that concept and sell the rights to a film or TV adaptation in wich writers have the freedom to take the cool concept in whatever directiom they want" ... I don't remember who said that to me, but they my be right

[@RobotsPajamas]

Unforgiven is amazing. It's a great movie to crib from. Re: America only in the story, this is kind of like the post apocalyptic tropes where you don't hear about the world at large because there's no communication anymore with anywhere outside your immediate area. Of course, you could always include a few rumors here and there to give some flavor.

[@robrotron2084]

This video has a few issues, 1.It's implied that the rest of the world is basically wiped out, and That's why we never see it. When Red Skull is gloating about taking over America he mentions that no one would want the rest of the planet now anyway. 2. If this is 50 years in the future and Magneto would be, what, over a hundred? I could see someone getting the drop in him. 3. That wasn't the real Daredevil or Punished, they were just gangsters that took on their personas. Honestly I'm not a huge fan of grimdark/deconstruction when it comes to comics, but I liked this book. It's dark, but I don't find it over the top or dark just for the sake of darkness like say, ultimatum.

[@fredrikgranstrom6743]

good points

[@metalliclark86]

Make no mistake, it is bleak and cynic as it gets, but ultimately fits the brutal worldview wolverine has always had, considering his personal history, and it shows hope for the future towards the end. Ultimatum had none of that, as CT stated, it was just a superhero themed slasher film, OML on the other hand, is a proper ''retired hero forced to return to the path'' story.

[@KingOfMadCows]

Magneto de-aged himself. He's already very old in the "present time." Remember, he's a Holocaust survivor, so he's already in his 80's during the "present time." But since his de-aging, he's physically in his 30's or 40's.

[@hazzardalsohazzard2624]

In the Old Man Logan comic which brought Logan into the mainstream universe, there's some flashbacks to him living in the Wasteland before he settled in America. So you see Japan has been ruined. And then in a current running comic, it's implied the whole of Earth is ruined. And thinks are also different in space.

[@alfa01spotivo]

@@KingOfMadCows magneto can de-age?

[@sassytabasco]

I think the thing with Millar, is that he doesn't so much write "realistically" as he does pick the most creatively cynical option for a story. It's like the Chaotic Neutral murder-hobo player at the D&D game. It's like, whatever was the most low hanging fruit option is what you're getting. I think a lot of 2000s writers were guilty of that because edge was "in". Millar, Ennis, Kirkman, Loeb. Super edgy, super violent, super cynical...but none of it makes "realistic sense" exactly.

[@tinstrings6312]

I've never read anything by Mark Millar, and after seeing this, I don't think I want to. I read comics for fun, not to feel like crap. If I want to feel like garbage, I'll watch the news.

[@MutantsInDisguise]

Couldn't have said it better.

[@wdcain1]

Millar's dark works are pretty bad. At best, he goes full cynical without putting any real thought into it (Old Man Logan, Authority, & Kick-Ass) and at worst he just does shock moments (Wanted, Nemesis, & the Unfunnies). It works better if someone takes over his ideas (Old Man Hawkeye & Capt Atom Armageddon). Strangely, when he goes light-hearted then his comics are brilliant (Superman, Jupiter's Legacy, Duke McQueen). _Acts of Vengeance_ was really good but it showed the reason why the villains failed was because they were villains. They're all egomaniacs, thugs, and bullies so they can't get along for long. Another trope of Mark Millar is he usually has the heroes hate each other but have the villains all get along. He honestly thinks sadists and greedy SOBs would naturally work well together and never think to back stab each other while well intentioned people couldn't. Millar has a weird mentality.

[@manarayofhope2374]

I really liked wanted

[@DeadlyAlienInvader]

Maybe he had serious bully problems when he was a kid.

[@thehmc]

Lol. Garbage. Millar's original books are 1000x better than the cornball stuff like Old Man Hawkeye.

[@lukedalton]

@@thehmc sorry, but Millar comics are basically like a Michael Bay movie...full of explosion and cheescake but very very light on real meat (if any). At least Old Man Hawkeye try to made sense of how the world work and how things are happened...plus unlike Old Man Logan had a story and an arc, hell it make even spider-b..c bearable (frankly i expected that Peter slapped a lot of good sense in her bratty niece in Spiderverse)

[@thehmc]

@@lukedalton "plus unlike Old Man Logan had a story and an arc" It's apparent that you don't understand any of the words you're using. Or you didn't actually read Old Man Logan.

[@jaredgarcia8638]

Honestly, I think Logan did it better.

[@RoyalKnightVIII]

In every way

[@jaredgarcia8638]

@@RoyalKnightVIII yep

[@DWNicolo]

Mark Millar also used the same plot line for the original version of Wanted that he used for Oldman Logan.

[@fightingmedialounge519]

He mentooned that.

[@dinodude722]

while i like the character of old man logan, and i find his story really interesting i do agree that i tend to NOT like mark millar's writing style. he's done some interesting stuff and there is good stories he has written, but i think there is a time and place for cynical and bleak storytelling, and while it can work at times, it doesn't always work well....

[@p.s6742]

20:05 Being blind and a ninja master? Reminds me of Blind Fury with Rutger Hauer. Anyone remember that??

[@lukedalton]

yeah, great and funny flick

[@nightmarefanatic1819]

Yup. My first Rutger Hauer movie.

[@zillafire101]

My dad loves that movie.

[@damianmonke3922]

Comic tropes never disappoints. 6 years later he’s still got it

[@mattlerch531]

Watched Logan last night. Wow!!! talk about a great x-men movie. Very gritty and cynical in tone. Not quite in line with the comics but all the references scattered throughout is enough to keep one busy trying to find them all.

[@ComicTropes]

matt lerch The movie surpasses the comics it drew from, in my opinion.

[@mattlerch531]

skunkape no need in splitting hairs, they are both great in their own right. Yes, Logan almost made me tear up a few times.

[@ComicTropes]

As I say in the video, I kind of liked Old Man Logan. And I think X-23 is a pretty good character. I also think the Death of Wolverine story arc from a few years back was well done. But I sincerely found the film to be a superior overall story that used bits from all of these comics to synthesize something better. Just my two cents.

[@Blackburn-Arts]

+skunkape that's nice hut dude whst happened don't tell you tube band you from doing Harvey pekar.

[@ComicTropes]

No one banned me from anything. I definitely plan to discuss Harvey Pekar this year. Just doing a few pop culture type comics that tie into Summer movies but I promise I'll get to him.

[@krenwregget7667]

I enjoyed the "Old Man Logan" story well enough but the art is the real treat. McNiven's work really elevates the material.

[@EmoEmu]

That whole storyline seems like the fevered dream of a mind blasted out on mushrooms.

[@andrewi.crocker8675]

In terms of Hulk going bad, considering the time period this was written, it kinda makes sense. This was around the same time Planet Hulk was comming out, if I'm not mistaken? Obviously he wasnt crazy in that, but they were definitely playing with this rogue Hulk idea

[@JW666]

That WAS NOT the real Punisher & Daredevil, they were with Ashley & they just randomly took their identites. There's a part in the comic where you see a bunch of skeletons of different heroes, one of them being Daredevil. They even used the skeleton of either Goliath or Giant Man/ Ant Man as a bridge, lol! 😝 And one of the superhero items that hangs on a supervillain's wall is Punisher's classic uniform (either that or a T-shirt with the skull logo, it's been awhile since I read it).

[@Lanier2369]

Little sidenote about the Daredevil stick retcon.... Matt still had the superhuman senses. The change was the it went from him automatically bring able to use the radar sense tight off the bat to stick training Matt how to use the hightened senses as a radar type thing, to be able to focus the superhumanly augmented senses they he gained from the radioactive material.

[@edward2962]

Great video! But yeah, I'd say somewhere around this period Millar started to move away from actual storytelling into cheap shock tactics. And a few of his later comics are really meant to be less comics and more movie pitches.

[@Changetheling]

Exactly this. Add to that the bragging of him being more clever than Jack Kirby because he makes way more money by working less.

[@ShadowEl]

Chris, I'm going back through some of your older episodes and the cut to you smoking cigars had me laughing so hard I started hacking up a lung and had to pause the video! I do love your more scholarly and citation-oriented analysis these days, but don't be afraid to still have fun with it!

[@Bonzulac]

"Millar" is pronounced "Miller."

[@animationfan957]

Hawkeye has always been as skilled with a sword that he is with a bow and arrow. He is after all trained by Swordman, and he was the katana wielding Ronin for a while. Also, those guyes dressed as Daredevil and Punisher wasn’t Matt Murdock and Frank Castle, they were just some kids in Hawkeye’s daughters failed superhero team.

[@Mo11y_Mi11ions]

lol I just commented that only to later spot yours. He's usually spot on, so I suppose an error now and then works out.

[@Naedlus]

"Mark Millar is good about cannon." "Isn't Hawkeye deaf, and doesn't he rely on lip reading? How does he know what Logan even tells him is on the map?"

[@ComicTropes]

Hawkeye is only partially deaf in one ear.

[@TheSuper4323]

Plus it’s shown that in old man Hawkeye his is trained by Matt Murdock who is on some mountain and trains him how to fight using his remaining senses

[@TheGreenBlazer]

Love the combination of McNiven on pencils and Hollowell on colors

[@ecrowe21]

Oh I'm so glad to know I'm not the only one who has problems with Old Man Logan the comic. I hated it

[@noahthompson6753]

Thank god we have the movie

[@arkinyte13]

While I respect your analysis I can’t help but enjoy this one, it was a fun read.

[@orangehillcomics7830]

Dark Knight Returns+Unforgiven = Old Man Logan

[@HovektheArtist]

I assumed magneto was killed in his sleep or through underhanded means, considering he was 70 to 80 in main continuity so when new kingpin took him out he would be atleast 100 to even 120 if it was more recent, which may i remind is seriously old for a guy without healing. So it was more like euthenasia than a fight in my eyes.

[@mayssm]

@4:46 "You just have to go with that". I feel like that is something you have to say a lot as you read Old Man Logan. Now, I like this story, but it has a lot of flaws and inconsistencies, and a lot of them are even so bad that they take you right out of the story and say, "No way that can happen. Nope. Never." People even doing a complete reversal of character. But to me, it was basically a very long "What If" story.

[@mikeehrmantraut4695]

I don't have problems with dark stories like this because at the end even after all that shit going down Logan's neck he still saves baby Hulk and takes him as his son, he learns to love the son of his enemy because that's not the little guy's fault and that's just wonderful

[@Changetheling]

Wow... way to ignore all the problems that statement of yours had.

[@emptyblank099a]

I find it hard to believe there was on one baby hulk.

[@psychodad-gaming]

just found your channel today and watched a few of your videos! love what you've got so far!

[@joshgillam5130]

@Mighty Raccoon did you try and take credit for someone else's channel?

[@Antonicane]

Doesn't that describe basically everything Mark Millar writes?

[@shock019]

I think mark miller is one of the only writers who the film adaptations of his work almost always turns out to be better then his original work.

[@movienaut]

I allways thought that the Daredevil and Punisher who died in the arena were new kids, as the age of Ashley, who took the mantle of older heroes so they could defeat the Kingpin.

[@redjirachi1]

Mark Millar is so edgy just seeing his work gives me a papercut

[@RansomeStoddard]

I think Mark Millar just needs a hug, or to watch a few funny cat videos.

[@Changetheling]

He does what he does on purpose. It's part of his strategy to shock everybody with his disgusting writing and then cashing out on the awesome movies he doesn't write nor direct.

[@christianninsananda9626]

I've actually discovered a couple of Millar's comics that aren't cynical and mean-spirited. Check out Huck and Reborn... I think you'll like them. They're both only 6 issues each.

[@reapercushions9372]

'Finding Nemo - and also Wolverine' seems like such a brilliant idea. It could really speak to audiences in different age groups and demographics. It might even pave the way for other new and interesting projects like: 'How I Met Your Mother - and also Bane' 'There's Something About Mary - and also Punisher'

[@axeltrujillo5693]

This channel is Incredible

[@tancrediparisi7321]

You know man, I don't even like comics one bit but you are so entertaining to watch I can't help but listen to you talking about things I don't know

[@royjones8312]

If that were the original Frank and Matt they'd be like 90 so I'm fairly certain that it's not them.

[@DichotomousRex]

My wife asked what I was watchin' and I said "I'm listening to this FUCKING NERD talk about comic books!" and she goes "wait, why are you calling him a fucking nerd, you're a huge nerd?" and I explained "I mean it as a compliment, this guy is the kindof nerd that elevates all of us and truly embodies the best of the term" so yeah, I love your channel, you fucking nerd.

[@mr.froggu3292]

No one mentioning how ComicTropes man be killing himself for these videos with those cigars

[@GeeMannn]

Dude I'd be down with Dr. Doom ruling over my home town, that would be so effing cool

[@socialmedia4637]

(Chris rises up in view covered in red gelatin) Chris: OH HI! You just caught me cutting my way out of the Hulk's stomach! Speaking of stomach...

[@kbuttstadt]

Ive been a subscriber for a while but I had never seen this vid. It came up because I was watching another video that had similar opinions about Big Game & Nemesis. The cigar smoking was a great way to get me to stop thinking about how popular Mark Millar's worst comics are. I personally LOVE the Jupiter books with Frank Quitley, and thats about it. Also, I now know why Millar always partners up with flashy artist names. His writing would be left out to dry if he didn't have guys like Laraz, Hitch, Quitley, etc

[@mr.sand7899]

The Ultimates was my introduction to the Marvel Universe.

[@elgatosideral5224]

Hunter Beebe me too

[@greysky1252]

So happy someone is finally calling out Mark Millar. I was pretty disgusted when I finally watched The Kingsmen upon my family's insistence. His heroes are so hate-able and they are always killing people. And the villain of that movie is basically how Millar sees people who are the opposite of himself, like Millar can't even comprehend why people would hate violence. It's as if he never experienced a shred of humanity. He thinks its just about "eww, blood *pukes* " The only reason I liked Wanted as a teen was because I thought it was a fresh take on the tired out superhero genre in that now we saw it from the Villians' perspectives. There wasn't a single likable character in it but it worked because they were *supposed* to be the Villains. It's fucked up that Millar's heroes are just as evil as his villains.

[@mitchbray6637]

I loved the first volumes of both The Ultimates and Ultimate X-men. I have not read anything else of his..save for those two issues of Old Man Logan I once had and I liked them. I really liked the intensity of the scene where Jubilee and Wolverine are at the mansion and they receive an SOS from all the other teams for help. I liked that feeling of intensity, of something is happening...However, the rape trope is overplayed. I take back what I said...I have red and own Superman Red Son and I also liked that as well. I miss the innocence and FUN of the Silver Age, Chris.

[@gr8m887]

I enjoy some of his work, but one thing that’s always bugged me is how Mark Millar turned Hulk into a cannibal, both in this Comic and in the Ultimates comic. I’m a Hulk fan and, while I understand that he’s kind of a rogue character who goes between being an unpredictable hero/anti-hero and sometimes even the villain of the story, why does Millar feel it necessary to turn Hulk into a cannibal?

[@florinivan6907]

Maybe Millar has some 'issues'.🤔

[@Rixizu]

He thinks it's a more "realistic" take on the character?

[@markshulusky6680]

The map here reminds me of the one Jack Kirby created for his post-apocalypse comic KAMANDI, one of my all- time favorites.

[@alexandermccalla5098]

Yikes. I'd like to see Mark write the Flash or Superman. Every time the Flash carries someone, the whiplash Gwen Stacey's them or rips the skin off of their face.

[@kbuttstadt]

Also, I love that you used the Acts of Vengeace card from the very first set of Marvel cards. The first few sets of Marvel cards, along with the Marvel Masterpiece (its when the Hildebrandts became art heroes of mine along with Joe Jusko & Boris Vallejo) cards & X-Men cards, were such a cool way young (at the time) readers like me could learn about the Marvel universe without having to read a million comics.

[@malakai_adam]

Realism is not the trope that comes to mind, rather I think it's playing up the fact we are already connected to the characters powerfully and the disillusion of seeing this previously invincible concept taken away suddenly. It's dark but i doubt it is a reflection of real life as much as an exploration of our connection to these creations success.

[@davidgantenbein9362]

Malachi Comics Agreed. I read the comic and it was never very realistic or even true to the core concepts of most characters. This was all about dystopian end times and is more comparable to a zombie movie, where everybody will eventually get eaten. Shock is part of the concept, not realism.

[@dankryst]

It says unforgiven on the fantasticar

[@JeremiahLambertArt]

i totally agree this story is mean spirited. and yet its awesome.

[@3n3my33]

A trope I noticed in Millar's Ultimates is that heroes are always telling each other to shut up and are just generally rude to each other for no reason. I think that was Millar trying to be realistic, but I think it would be more realistic to keep their resentments in check for the sake of the mission, while their frustrations simmer just under the surface. It just bothered me. Still, I can't help checking out Millar's work from time to time. I think he's a talented writer beneath all the cynicism. Some of the lines he writes, like "do you think this letter on my head stands for f**king France?!" and "did somebody order a f**king sandwich?" are genuinely funny to me, and he can write some pretty entertaining action sequences. And honestly, sometimes he just comes up with some cool premises, even if the execution is often lacking. That's why so many people are able to make great adaptations of his work. I think the real reason I keep coming back for more, though, is that I'm still an edgy teenager at heart. A man has to be what he is, Joey. Can't break the mold.

[@lingbon3543]

That's definitely not Matt Murdock or Frank Castle.

[@ClarenceDass]

I never saw the appeal of this book. I can see the appeal of a story that explores an old Wolverine and i think the movie did it so well. The Book though was so damn depressing in the worst way. Everything with the Hulk and his kids is just to damn gory, and after I saw Dare Devil and Punisher get torn by those dinosaurs, I stopped reading and honestly just threw the book away. Which was a big deal because it's so hard to get comics here. Hears later I read a digital copy of the book, just to revisit it and see if I could see it in a different light and I couldn't.

[@NobodyCaresALot]

Boo Hoo. Very sensitive.

[@heartbust4624]

It wasn't the real punisher and daredevil btw

[@NobodyCaresALot]

@@heartbust4624 Good call, but pick one. C'mon.

[@thehmc]

Your assessment is how sheltered people with no social skills read stories.

[@alfa01spotivo]

@@NobodyCaresALot sorry we dont like bleak depressing pessimistic stories

[@pnut3844able]

This story is amazing, one of the best logan stories of all time

[@shpoopyshpoop]

Millar always made me think of Garth Ennis if he wasn't a good writer.

[@alessiocantarelli7241]

What I expected: pacific discussions about comics What I had: Rated PG13 for use of alcoholic beverages and smoking. :D

[@akl2k7]

Pacific? You mean specific?

[@DanielKovacsRezsuk]

I think Mark Millar is the single most overrated comic book writer out there.

[@ecrowe21]

DanielB I love your comment so much. I feel like we're soul mates.

[@JoeJoe-lq6bd]

He’s a mediocre storyteller but he gets attention to the books. So he’s successful in that sense.

[@weaslepopper]

His whole shtick is "What if ***insert scenario*** happened?" Wanted, Red Sun, Kick-Ass,Logan.Millar is a hack, imo.

[@icantthinkofaname1009]

Mark Millar is great at writing stuff that lays the groundwork to be adapted into something much better. I’m not a huge fan but I do like that he fully supports adaptations of his work even though they’re usually radically different.

[@unlimited-edge]

Standing@TheTerminus I loved the Kick-Ass movie, but what little of the comic that I’ve seen is just... cringe inducing in how depressing and violent it is The comic is fucked lmao

[@genghisdon1]

Acts of Vengeance was all over the place, but it definitely had quite a bit of fun; so unlike Millar, who obviously holds Marvel, and the READER, in complete contempt. So much so I think it taints even his independent work too much too look back at it much, but at least there I could find some appreciation of his stuff. He's become a toxic waste dump for me, though.

[@iiirdvii840]

Actually it is hinted that Fisk probably died before they took over.

[@Benjatron-jw2rg]

I love this book! You know, I’m something of an edgelord myself 😉

[@TevyaSmolka]

Logan was amazing

[@HeyMykee]

So many unlikely coincidences happened all along the road trip. Especially Old Man Hawkeye's daughter killing the new Kingpin just during the few minutes they happened to be passing through. And then Daredevil and Punisher becoming Dino-Meat also just as they're passing by.

[@Rgoid]

Dark Nights Metal is Edgelord Nihilism. This pales in comparison

[@smugalice6206]

Oh yeah it’s ridiculous

[@GonzoCiosain]

I disagree with you to a point, but I respect your opinion. I first read Old Man Logan during a very rough time of my life when I legitimately thought I was dying due to medical issues and identified with it to a terrifying degree. I'm doing a lot better now, and I really enjoy your videos. You seem like a good dude, Chris, keep up the good work and keep reading comics!

[@julesmiller2846]

I wasn’t expecting to see Ultron in a button up but I love it