Does Death in Comics Mean Anything?

[@doctorhandsome]

I remember back in the 90's, Wizard magazine's "rule" about superhero deaths was "Only Bucky stays dead." That joke didn't age well.

[@TheMasterQuests]

It was Uncle Ben, The Wayne’s and Bucky...I think Gwen Stacy was on that list too

[@thecollector4332]

TheMasterQuests And by today, all of them have, in a way, returned.

[@TheMasterQuests]

@@thecollector4332 Except the Waynes and Uncle Ben both have remained dead no matter what

[@peterquill9543]

Wasn't there a joke in Wizard of Jason Todd vs Bucky and the one that won was a dog that took their bones

[@qty1315]

@@TheMasterQuests Uncle Ben returned in one of the animated cartoons, The Waynes also came back to life at least once. Not to mention the alternate universes where they never died...

[@russellgarifulla1114]

"You caught me dying" Best intro ever.

[@anyerquantum.nuclearrites]

WELL...i gotta say the one picking the dog poo is just too good but this one goes to the top 10 fo sure

[@bsebire]

I would have liked it if he segued from the dummy falling off the balcony from his Punisher video :D

[@anyerquantum.nuclearrites]

@Spooky Toast haha true that one is vry naughty )))

[@trooperjoe73]

Gonna be weird when he passes away.

[@seand7042]

@@trooperjoe73 not if we catch him

[@vacuumhat2935]

This video is Chris’ canonical death and the reboot of the ComicTropes universe

[@WalterLiddy]

I was a comics retailer when the 'death of Superman' happened. Almost universally, retailers underestimated the effect that marketing would have in selling this issue to the public at large, and we all under-ordered. DC also printed too few copies, failing to anticipate demand. Ultimately, DC decided to only distribute 1/3 of each retailer's order, so every store wound up under-stocked. A lot of this was because nobody who actually knows comics took it seriously as a permanent thing. But the mainstream public was told this was it. End of Superman. A collector's item must-have for every household. The first day it was on shelves, copies were selling for upwards of $150.00. Then the next month everyone over-ordered the 'return of the supermen' thinking there was demand. There wasn't, and that bankrupted a lot of retailers.

[@dirtlikesme]

WalterLiddy metaphoric af I bet

[@joshgulisano1863]

Jesus what a perspective. That's actually insane that that happen.

[@michaelalford7006]

I was at the comic shop the day it came out, and had arranged a pre-order and still had to wait for a 3rd printing, I think.

[@moderusprime]

The next month? There was a pretty long time between the FFAF, the one month dead space where they didn't print anything, the ROTS, and then his actual return.

[@handsomebrick]

@@EricDMMiller Not stupid, they just had a big blind spot. The birth of the direct market resulted in most retailers of comics being fans themselves and selling mostly to fans, they had little to no experience outside of their niche and had to learn the hard way that it wasn't the same. That said, I wouldn't call them smart either, or at least not smart with money.

[@TevyaSmolka]

Funny enough the whole Lazarus pit idea for bringing Jason Todd back to life actually was used for the Dc animated movie Batman under the red hood and was really really good in my opinion

[@delefaleyimu5573]

I honestly forgot about the Superboy universe punch and thought the animated movie was the original story.

[@mitchgosser2802]

@@delefaleyimu5573 It's interesting in that Winnick actually wrote said film adaptation as well, and also wrote Lost Days which had the Lazarus Pit used to restore Jason's mind.

[@TevyaSmolka]

yup indeed

[@CorbCorbin]

And, it made the character's actions much more explainable. As well as giving Red Hood a new, younger fan base, to discover him.

[@TevyaSmolka]

yup that part is true but unfortunately thanks to the new 52 it basically watered down jason todd aka red hood character and made him more of a anti hero which in my opinion isn't really interesting but boring in my opinion which is a damn shame because i like jason todd red hood more of a villian for batman and tim drake robin then a Antihero but that's just my opinion

[@bbbabrock]

What don't you get? Jason Todd was brought back to life because some other guy, super boy, punches a dimensional barrier really super hard. Have YOU ever punched a dimensional barrier and not brought someone back to life? Has anyone ever punched one of those things and not brought Jason Todd back to life? It only makes sence.

[@monstergelo1072]

Amen to that brother

[@connercampbell9086]

Man, you can't even brush up against a dimensional barrier without resurrecting some dead schmuck! I know I've been there before.

[@bbbabrock]

@@connercampbell9086 Right. I know. Like every single time I am near one of those things that exact thing happens.

[@joshuarichardson6529]

Last time I punched a dimensional barrier an entire species came back to life. If you ever visit a universe where Archaeopteryx is still alive, that may be my fault.

[@wereflipper]

It's science, it just works!

[@randalldowling1068]

Marvel actually had a policy around 2008 that a character had to die every quarter year for the sales uptick. That is why Human Torch died during Jonathan Hickman's run.

[@oldmanlogan9616]

Lol I remember how much big of a deal Johny's death was.

[@symbiote1982pk]

And in the Early 2000's, when recovering from bankruptcy they had a "dead means dead" rule.....that didn't last very long and the only time I know of it changing a writer's plans was Grant Morrison using Colossus and Moira McTaggart in the early New X-Men drafts and being told he couldn't as they both recently died.

[@jjturner4424]

At least it led to a pretty solid issue of FF, including one where Spider-Man comforts Franklin Richards.

[@SonicProfessor_a.k.a._T._Andra]

🤦

[@astrohkid]

I think the reason a lot of writers are inclined to bring characters back is because the deaths are often so unceremonious. They have little to no weight or meaning, like Hulk in Civil War II. There was no narrative reason for Hulk specifically to be the one who dies, the only purpose that death served was raising the stakes. Hulk is a great, complex character. Of course you’d want to bring him back if his death is as simple as being shot in the head in a story that isn’t even about him! Whereas with a death like Captain Marvel, the death has stayed in place because the death was the focal point - it wasn’t some footnote in a larger story and it had its own thematic nuances that resulted in it having weight. Fantastic video, Chris!

[@connercampbell9086]

I'm more cynical. They do it because publishers know a major death will spike sales in the short term. Then return to the status quo when the effect wears off.

[@eladiocofresi5202]

I believe that was one of the reasons for the death and return of Superboy. Nightwing was originally supposed to die in Infinite Crisis, before selecting Superboy instead. While I enjoyed the grieving process in the comics, I initially felt disappointed to learn of his return. And this is coming from someone who is a fan of the character.

[@jettlucashayes8508]

I wonder how many people know about captain marvel's death heck most people think theirs only go captain marvel and carol danvers

[@leaffinite2001]

@@connercampbell9086 both i think

[@maxhydekyle2425]

All of the deaths in Civil War II were stupid. The entire event really.

[@taffysaur]

I loved when Superman gave his eulogy at Martian Manhunter’s funeral, he ended with, “... and let us pray for a resurrection... 😔” 😆 Even the heroes get the idea by this point.

[@jasonginsburg7929]

Jean Grey has died more times than Kenny on South Park. Lol

[@mageside]

I mean kenny's death actually still has meaning for me these days, because they don't even really kill him off as much anymore, meanwhile I think someone at marvel just killed of Jean Grey again this very moment... or a clone of her... or she's timewarped back to life.... of something something infinity gauntlet..... she'll return in the next avengers movie!

[@nicholasdickens2801]

I call her Kenny Summers or Kenny Grey. It’s ridiculous how they’ve treated her.

[@symbiote1982pk]

Once? she only died when Magneto gave her a stroke.

[@hydrolito]

Jean Grey is not the same as the Phoenix and Phoenix could have cloned her.

[@guillesuperior]

She was dead for like 6 months recently lol

[@AscendantStoic]

This is one of the reasons I stopped reading most serialized superhero comics, it's not just death, pretty much everything has no lasting impact and the stakes no matter how high they seem don't matter in the end. Compare that to Invincible or any short comic series (say Y The Last Man or Umbrella Academy) or any standalone graphic novel (or most Manga) where things are all permanent and can't be undone and the stakes are actually high and it's a totally different reading experience, and when everything is said and done you know it's set in stone and won't be retconned few years down the line, this feeling is what I look for in the comics I read. I hope you do cover Blacksad or Invincible one day.

[@Ziko577]

I agree. I'm getting tired of these long winded events with no consequences, overpowered heroes/heroines and lame villans, and the stories these days coming out of DC & Marvel feel like a soap opera than a real story. It's worse than what the WWE puts out on a consistent basis really.

[@fjgarcia3]

I read a lot of Marvel and DC but I agree with you. If you want a long running superhero book with stakes, try Savage Dragon; it has evolved a lot since 1992 and 99% of changes are permanent.

[@Ziko577]

I''m not that big of a fan of that one as it's way too weird and a recent issue had his wife turn into a sex addict of all things! I think the creator should wrap this up as he's running out of ideas.

[@KTF0]

I wholeheartedly agree. I'll read an in-continuty story, but, just an arc if it's good. There's characters that I lost count on how many times they died. I live for short comic series now. I don't care about the next retcon. There were stories that I loved that gets pissed on because they decided to retcon or bring a character back.

[@dankestmemes9843]

Or Saga...

[@stanfordfeynman2796]

I remember my mom looking at me crazy when I would easily get invested in or simply just start watching her soap opera tv shows with her. “How do you enjoy this?” “I read comics, Mom. This is normal”

[@PrincessOzaline]

I actually think Supergirl was an interesting character destinct from Superman from the start. For one thing she remembered Krypton or at least Argo so her interactions with Earth were a bit different. She had youthful adventures without being predestined like Superboy. And when it was revealed her biological parents were still alive (there's another undone death for you) it complicated her relationship with her adopted parents. I find Supergirl very misunderstood.

[@1derb0y]

I agree. The main problem I had with Superboy (Superman when he was a boy) was what is known now as the "Superboy Effect". Will Superboy escape the kryptonite death trap? Well, we know he grows up to be Superman, so yeah. So, the focus is not WILL he escape, but how does he escape? But the stakes are a lot lower because we know nothing permanent (like death or disfigurement) is going to happen.

[@Ragamuffin-Guesses-cgc-grades]

I've heard of people getting punched to death, but only in comics can someone get punched to life.

[@anselravenhart4753]

One Puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunch!!!!!!

[@ianfinrir8724]

What are chest compressions if not (gently) punching someone's heart?

[@jacob_ian_decoursey_the_author]

Honestly I like when characters die or retire and pass on their mantle. I loved that Dick Grayson became batman, and was a huge fan of Damien Wayne taking the roll of Robin. Wolverine's death was impactful and should have been permanent with X-23 carrying on in his memory. Aunt May dying in the 90s was paired with a deeply emotional talk between her and Peter and should have been permanent. Then years later, Peter Parker's heroic death followed by Miles Morales carrying on his image was DAMN PHENOMENAL! (Different universes but my point stands.) The Flash should be a series of heroes with the student replacing the master after so long. All of this adds to the legend of the characters and personal growth of others around them. Undoing their deaths to ensure reader familiarity and fan demands is like a slap in the face.

[@fistofdoom8429]

Honestly the last death that felt meaningful to me was Mar-Vell of cancer. One of the few true perma-deaths in comics. Also didn’t they recently do a storyline where Clark’s father was revealed to have survived the death of Krypton? Thought I remember that happening in the past year. Or how about how we have the Death of Daredevil going on right now and already they have announced his reboot.

[@Ziko577]

His dad was a villain called Oz or something like that. People freaked out about that one.

[@AC-gb7do]

Mar-Vell’s death was pretty good as stories go, and he’s stayed dead as far as I can remember.

[@DIEGhostfish]

Closest I can remember to him coming back was the Cancerverse invasion by Abnett and Lanning where the consequence of keepign him from dying was so grave it doomed an entire universe and nearly doomed the main one.

[@jonathangraham5179]

They played at resurrecting him in the 2008 Civil War (a series I hated so much I stopped collecting comics) but it turned out to be a Skrull. However they resurrected him for real in AvX in 2012.

[@natturnertv]

Mar-Vell has returned several times since his 'death'.

[@nicolasbazzano2028]

I've been reading comics since the 1970s, and remember that in my youth the only permanent deaths were Bucky and Gwen. I don't know who stays dead anymore. For me, the one death that should've remained permanent, was Barry Allen. He died saving the universe, his sidekick took over for him and absolutely nailed it as the Flash, and we wouldn't have had that crap Nu52 to deal with.

[@PostcastFromFiretopMountain]

My understanding is that current DC chronology has retconned Jason Todd's rebirth into being from one of the Lazarus pits.

[@handsomebrick]

Retcon, there's another can of worms.

[@camm5981]

When Superboy Prime “hit reality”, he apparently corrected the DC universe because I guess Jason wasn’t supposed to die which brought him back to life. He was brought back as basically a zombie, so Talia put him in the Lazarus Pit to bring him back.

[@marko-gj1uj]

Make a video about characters not aging.

[@JohnDoe-vq9ck]

make a video about characters who do age. if there is much aside from dredd

[@fjgarcia3]

@@JohnDoe-vq9ck ¡Erik Larsen's Savage Dragon! And the Marvel Universe but only during the 60s

[@JoeJoe-lq6bd]

I'm not sure what the point of that would be. We all know why and it's not unique to comics.

[@batzman9209]

John Doe john constantine aged in his vertigo series

[@PungiFungi]

As there is only one issue a month, comic book character would only age a day or two for every one of our months....

[@TheRappter]

No, it doesn't mean anything. When Captain Marvel (Mar-Vell) died in the comics, the writers gave him an amazing sendoff just to show the readers that yes, this guy is staying dead. People coming back to life in the comics became so prominent that they had to almost tell the reader when someone was going to stay dead. That alone proves death is meaningless in comics.

[@natturnertv]

He has made many appearances over the years though. So even he isn't dead.

[@seanramsey]

The Death of Superman is what had me leave superhero comics as a kid. When he came back I felt like nothing really mattered anymore if they could just rug pull us like that. Got me into Indie comics a lot though and I've had a great time getting into those + webcomics since then. More recently I've started going back to Marvel comics to check things out and have seen some interesting stuff that's got me looking more into their catalogue.

[@metalliclark86]

Personally, I much rather have a death/rebirth story thought out in advance, like Batman's death in FC and his later return, than a dead character meant to stay dead and then brought up again, generally just to die again. Ultimate peter parker comes to mind. However, there are ways to do it gracefully like johns/sciver rebirth flash and green lantern, and others not so much, like modern jean grey. It all comes down to the final outcome. Out of principle though, not a fan of killing legacy characters for good, it feels like a disrespect to the creator of said character. Amazing video as always, intro was hilarious lol

[@langleymneely]

UserName UserLastname Agreed, in thought out moments like that the resurrection doesn’t reek of lazy editorial mandate to create false drama. When planned out it can make for a compelling story that actually has a destination in mind before it even began.

[@Araqnidm]

It's funny, as a kid I always considered Bucky and Jason Todd to be kind of cross-universe counterparts to each other, as the deceased sidekicks whose deaths weighed heavily upon the heroes. I thought it was ironic that they were both resurrected at around the same time, but it also kind of plays into this symbiosis that the Marvel and DC universes seem to have (symbiosis almost certainly ins't the right word here), such as when Cap and Batman were both killed at the same time, or when storylines that tease a big marriage come out at the same time, or when both universes get rebooted at the same time, or even how the content from the different movie universes seem to parallel each other at times (BvS/Civil War, Justice League/Infinity War). I have to wonder if there isn't a bit of corporate espionage or something going on there, or is it just one coincidence after another?

[@Targisvear]

Corporate espionage is the right word :)))). Of Whom on whom? I'll let that to historians.

[@Araqnidm]

@@Targisvear I'm sure back in the day, if there were any weird synchronicities popping up between the two companies, part of it was just them all getting together for drinks after work and spilling the beans after a few rounds. Not sure if that still exists today, what with DC having moved out west.

[@Targisvear]

I always wonder on Champions of Angor and Squadron Supreme (the Avengers parody of DC and Justice League parody of Marvel) were result of corporate espionage or that sort of sharing idea since they came same month same year. Being a parody thing I could imagine it as more of one knowing the other would and deciding to fight back. Other similar events might be just friendly idea sharing or coincidences from the spirit of the time, but the Champions/Supremes thing always hit me as more "this means war!".

[@chinyereugwu9431]

Yeah Jason's death weighed so much on Batman he immediately replaced Jason with Tim. It weighed so much he didn't try to bring him back like he did when his bio kid Damian Wayne died as Robin in the line of duty. Batman did not care anywhere as much as you think.

[@Araqnidm]

Chinyere Ugwu okaaaay... my bad, I wasn’t aware that you knew the guy.

[@jamesoblivion]

Whatever one thinks of Max Landis, his Death of Superman video nailed it. That storyline was the straw that broke the camel's back. The camel that was apparently keeping most of the dead characters from coming back to life. Hey, there's weirder stuff in comics!

[@marko-gj1uj]

Spider-Man from Earth-1610. Dies from fighting Sinister Six,gets resurected by Oz,dies again off screen in Secret Wars 2,gets resurected again after Earth-1610 gets brought back.

[@jadenbryant9283]

Since earth 1610 was brought back did Millie's ever go back to his world

[@samkaranja5709]

*SPOILERS FOR CURRENT THOR COMICS* Cough cough Jane Foster Thor. dead for one issue

[@Nerdosoidexd]

in comics, the real scary thought is the lack of death. Imagine this: You're put through hell for an an unknown entity's amusement and just when you think you've reached a satisfying conclusion...BOOM, either all the growth you went through is erased or your remaining happiness is forcefully taken away from you because it's considered boring. The best you can hope for is that all your memories are erased next time the cycle repeats. There is no closure, the only way to truly die is to go out in an absolute whimper so no entity can ever find interest in you ever again...or hope they all have mercy on you. Either that or insurance. God knows how expensive Marvel's New York insurance businesses cost

[@Paralellex]

Statistically speaking, I've probably died in a comic book somewhere.

[@TevyaSmolka]

I still maintained Wally west flash should have stayed as the flash and actually worked and in my opinion was amazing bringing back barry Allen in my opinion I don’t think anybody wanted him to comeback

[@Frankenstein077]

Well, I guess that means I'm not anybody. :-p

[@LupineShadowOmega]

He'd been dead too long. Most readers knew Wally as the Flash they'd always known.

[@AC-gb7do]

I grew up during the tail end of Barry’s run as Flash, Wally grew into the Flash, but I don’t think DC needed to sacrifice Wally (again) to boost Barry’s popularity, I mean there are four GLs so two Flashes doesn’t bother me. Barry dies in 86, comes back in 2009. Wally becomes Flash in 1986, and by 2009 is gone, comes back in 2016, gone again in 2018.

[@virginiasaintj]

@@AC-gb7do There's a lot more than four Green Lanterns. Depending how how you want to count it, there could be either seven, six, or five: Alan, Hal, John, Guy, Kyle, Simon, and Jessica. Alan is from an alternative universe, so it's up to you if you want to include him. Kyle is the white lantern, so again, include him if you want.

[@TevyaSmolka]

thank you i am glad i am not the only one who feels that

[@Rometiklan]

HahA! Loved the intro, Chris! As a kid, death in comics is something that impacted me to a greater degree. Today, I've become jaded...death has become a bit of a gimmick and killing off popular characters is akin to killing the golden goose. I think the death of Superman is the ultimate expression of this. Great vid, and thanks for posting.

[@AC-gb7do]

Rometiklan Superman, Batman, Robin and Captain America were all cash grabs lol

[@epm1012]

Have you seen Under the Red Hood? They actually do use the Lazarus Pit.

[@ericjohnson9623]

Making Jason Todd's resurrection be from a Lazarus Pit was a decision the movie adaptation of Under the Red Hood made.

[@Ziko577]

Cyclops is coming back in February 2019 in issues 11 & 12 of Uncanny X-Men and I'm not so happy because him dying years ago was not only a turning point for the X-Men but for the franchise as a whole.

[@MisterSiza78]

Am I wrong in thinking that all deaths should be permanent? Without death nothing is at stake and cheapens the emotional impact.

[@TevyaSmolka]

Asmin Siza no your not wrong and in fact I personally I believed death should be permanent within conics like for example the death of jean grey in my opinion should never ever be undone. Also the death of Barry Allen in my opinion was a death that actually made sense to me in my opinion and we got my favorite flash Wally west and he got married to Linda Park and his kids iris and jai who in my opinion were great kids in my opinion next jon Kent superboy who recently is my all time favorite characters within dc rebirth

[@LupineShadowOmega]

Yeah, that too can go bad. Just ask the Ultimate Marvel Universe.

[@langleymneely]

Tevya Smolka Tevya are you SURE you are a fan of Jon Kent Superboy!? I don’t think you are really all that into him as a character! You only talk about him every chance you get as opposed to 24/7! Thats not enough commitment my friend! Jk 😜 lol Are you digging the new SuperSons mini btw? I love it, especially the Junior Legion of Doom! Great and weird origin. Seeya around youtube buddy! Cheers!

[@LowellLucasJr.]

Your not wrong. I totally support & believe your thoughts and your right! These "none deaths" just cheapen the idea and believability of the charcters sacrifice or tragedy.

[@poeterritory]

They should be. The thing about comics (at least Marvel) was the relatability to real people and real life. Sure they had super powers, but they also had real world problems and that always worked for me. But when someone returns, I find it becomes a jarring disconnect.

[@scottfree2248]

Brilliant video! I think that the Doom Patrol should be included in this commentary. They were among the first heroes to sacrifice themselves to save others. This story also paved the way for other similar stories!

[@leyenda6149]

Eric Masterson/Thunderstrike more or less permanently died. I'm still sad about that cuz he still is my all-time favorite

[@ingonyama70]

I liked Eric. I'd like to see him as part of a new Thor Corps sometime.

[@sludgefactory241]

3:36 there's nothing more horrifying than Spidey with those lil black pupil dots in his eyes.......ghheeeewgggh!

[@KTF0]

When continuity was treated with at least some respect, there was a time when death stories actually meant something. Now who gives af. I dunno why even comic heroes mourn in funerals. The question is who HASN'T died in comics? Or how many times has each character died?

[@Ziko577]

The funeral issues are the funniest as I think to myself that that character will come back in a few months or a year or so these days. The resurrection cycle is so short now. It's like a train that once it stops at the station in Heaven or wherever they go to that the conductor says, "OK it's your stop so go back to where you came from!"

[@magicpineapples1313]

after martian manhunter died in Final Crisis Grant Morrison wrote it in a very self aware way, with Superman even saying that they would “pray for a resurrection”

[@LeftHandedRightHanded]

I just came across this channel and I truly wish I found out about it sooner. One of the most informative, funniest, entertaining comic channels ever. This channel is a break from big money seeking channels. Many channels repeat themselves too much in just one video, and I find this one to have a good drive in every video. You sir just got a big fan on your hands!

[@buttersstotch2014]

Im so glad Jason Todd came bad! Red hood is so much fun. The past few years of red hood and the outlaws has been really good. I’m not really into with the new red hood outlaw story of him being some kind of kid villain instructor- but bizarro and Artemis are back so maybe it’ll get better!

[@TheJMuise87]

Such an interesting topic. One thing that I believe might also be a factor in the rebirth in comics, is how some fans do not want a change from the status quo. Or at least a permanent one. Not saying I'm better at accepting it than anyone, just something I thought of. Another great video Chris!

[@JoeFlamenco]

The Jason Todd resurrection makes about as much sense as a football bat.

[@TheAlison1456]

One thing i absolutely love about your work: you never say "media" or "content" in place of "stories".

[@no_one_of_that_name_here]

That intro was amazing with perfect comic timing.

[@m.f.m.8290]

6:48 woah was not ready for that

[@Scandal262]

One of my favourite moments in any comic is the death of Johnny Storm, The Human Torch so I was pretty disappointed at how they brought him back.

[@theos1022]

One character to die and remain dead that you forgot to mention is Jim Wilson; the Hulks one time sidekick and Falcon’s nephew. He died from complications from having AIDS. It was in an issue of the Incredible Hulk during his Pantheon era and written by the legendary Peter David( Incredible Hulk issue#420 August 1994).In that issue the Hulk actually goes into a fairly detailed explanation of why he wouldn’t give Jim a blood transfusion to cure him of his AIDS. Stating, and I’m paraphrasing, that doing so would be irresponsible. It was a very moving conversation between the Hulk and Jim and it supports your reasoning for people dying in comics from real word diseases.

[@Stanlos]

Nope. There's always going to be a Geoff Johns or Dan DiDio

[@umbram8073]

The Question during 52 (the post infinite crisis one) was the first comic that had me really deal with a realistic and permanent feeling death of a major character I'd loved- it felt so nice how Renee took the torch and the whole shifting of the Question from there.

[@LowellLucasJr.]

There was a time when" comic death " meant something- such as Captain Marvel. Some stories still hold up with a characters death- such as Spider Gwen being shocked she died in another world or Jason Todd still being unraveled about being dead. Its very rare for it to be significant today.

[@jozefserf2024]

When there's money to be made, there's was no stopping them from pissing on their own formidable legacy. These days, its gone way beyond that. These people have no respect for either continuity or theor predecessors. Certainly not for their own fans, who they only see in dollar numbers.

[@helious5056]

Given the way mainstream comics have been going I'm not sure death will regain it's luster so to speak any time soon.

[@D_Fyre]

This was one of your best! I love the videos that touch on the industry as a whole and delve into the history and behind the scenes stuff. Maybe you can do a video on a trope that this touched on a little: The Status Quo. For a while characters actually changed over time. For example, Peter Parker went from high school, to college, to a married man. At some point, it seems like super-hero comics as a whole reached a status quo that they were never able to get far from again. Why and when exactly did that happen?

[@seangentry2943]

Bringing Barry Allen back is one of my least favorite decisions in all of comics. Wally West deserves better than having to eternally play second fiddle to the guy he rightfully took the mantle of.

[@JBalderas1990]

I know you go above and beyond for this channel...if this channel ever has to die please come back through Superboys punch! Keep up the good work. Best comic channel I've encountered.

[@doctorpicardnononono7469]

Jesus, the comic book hero !

[@ingonyama70]

Marvel calls him Nate Grey :p (seriously, go look up "Age of X-Man".)

[@steve_bal4]

After Superman's hugely marketed death and resurrection, permanent death in comics was never believable, or reliable, EVER again, and I'd argue that influenced other entertainment media going forward as well. *cough*cough*Star-Wars*cough*cough*

[@humanman7368]

The best way to bring a character back from the dead, is to have the character CHANGE because of it. Coming back from the dead is a traumatic event, of course the character won’t be the same. Too many times have we seen superheroes just walk off death, or in Nightcrawlers case, teleport. Both Bucky and Jason Todd are not the same people as they were when they died.

[@ingonyama70]

Nightcrawler had a crisis of faith as a result of his resurrection, which I thought was a neat touch. When Magik came back, she was originally not herself but a demon simulacrum, and had to reclaim bits and pieces of herself to be Illyana again.

[@LosSantosCity]

I don’t even read comics but hearing that captain marvel died of cancer. It just makes me so emotional

[@jesusramirezromo2037]

Mar-Vell is imo the only meaningfull death in comics They should NEVER undo his death, it would be disrispectfull

[@MFunkibut]

A companion piece to this might be guys who are always dead: Spectre, Deadman, Ghost Rider. And hasn't Punisher's family stayed dead?

[@Hchris101]

Just casually dying over here, nothing to see.

[@wtk6069]

The Death of Superman was fundamentally different from the deaths of Supergirl or Flash in Crisis or of Bucky over at Marvel. Nobody seriously thought Supes would stay dead for more than a few months. People knew it was all just part of a single story about temporary "death" (and also an homage to the classic silver-age "death" story, since the superbooks of that era loved putting modern twists on classic stories). The resurrection (actually, his revival from a very deep coma) was planned from the beginning, and even most casual readers knew this. When Bucky or Barry Allen came back, it was a decision that reversed something previous creators had previously made "final". That's something very different.

[@ARCWuLF]

Short answer: No. Slightly longer answer: It depends on the comic.

[@ANIpJs]

Thank you for the acknowledgment about Cancer. My little brother recently passed away from stage 4 liver cancer. It's extremely difficult and I miss him every day.

[@gigangreg7837]

"Oh, hi! You caught me dying!" Never change

[@michaelclarke4009]

I did my best to draw him as the maxx. every time I submit I am begging him to do an episode on sam keith. I love him. that maxx cartoon blew my mind when I was a child. I had to buy every issue. thank you for featuring my art and allowing me to be a part of your amazing show. always amazing omg!

[@SkottiKimble]

The answer is simple. The fans, both reading and creating the stories that cause this. They drop books when their favorite characters die (like when Morrison killed off Jean, I took a prolonged break from comics). Death is a rather immature way to "raise the stakes" in a story as well, as it's too easy to do, so by its nature it doesn't mean anything.

[@Temujin18S]

When no characters die there's no real tension or stakes to battles especially if characters constantly have cheap plot devices to escape death.

[@megaflamer]

@@Temujin18S but there is also no tension if you know that death is a revolving door, It just becomes an annoyance at that point.

[@DanielGoldMcduckRose]

That don’t have balls to take that risk to much backlash. But it’s nice creative change honestly flash and gl were better for it so was captain America and Superman. I’d prefer some growth

[@marko-gj1uj]

Amazing Fantasy #15 was released in 1962,not 1961.

[@omegaPSI2006]

An effort was made with that intro gag, an effort I greatly appreciate.

[@grayscribe1342]

For a time there was even a trope about this in X-Men: Surprised Villain: "You were dead. X-Man: "I got better."

[@marshall_warpath8695]

Ok, explain THUNDERBIRD? Entered w/Storm, Colossus, Nightcrawler, Sunfire, and 2nd or 3rd if u count Hulk 180 app. of Wolverine. They killed him off in only his 3rd app.

[@grayscribe1342]

@@marshall_warpath8695 The trope was from around issue 250-300 of Uncanny X-Man and if I remember right, even Thunderbird came back for a short time. I don't remember the circumstances or the issue, but he did (again, if I remember right).

[@marshall_warpath8695]

@@grayscribe1342 Thx G. Scribe, I'm gonna write to X-Men editors to get him back to stay 4 good. Maybe an alternate reality where Natives didn't lose our Continent.

[@ingonyama70]

@@marshall_warpath8695 Thunderbird was created specifically to die. And he was later replaced by his brother Warpath, and Danielle Moonstar, and Forge, all of whom have become much more interesting and complex characters than he ever was. I agree there should be more Native characters, but Thunderbird himself was never designed for more than a brief appearance.

[@StarlightPrism]

@@ingonyama70 Yeah, they wanted to kill off a character early to show that shit was real. Heard they had to choose between Thunderbird and Wolverine, and let Wolverine live cause his claws made him stand out.

[@strategic_amber_reservoir]

They do end up using the Lazarus Pit for Jason in the rebirth version of continuity. It is much, much better.

[@alangreenway6695]

When a creator continues to control a character or world (Stan Lee, JRR Martin on GOT, Neil Gaiman’s Sandman), their decisions about killing characters or giving them life changing events have gravitas about them. When someone takes over a property for six months and kills off a character or changes their sexuality, or gender or race it’s a lot easier to look at their choices as mistakes that can be fixed. Just look at the last Star Wars film and look forward to the next film where they course correct. But then after all that time what else do you do with these golden and silver age heroes?The truth is that when a character remains a teenager for 60 years, then time and it’s consequences are far harder to keep solid.

[@TheInfuckingcredible]

Most teenage superheroes actually matured and got older over the course of their respective series, just look at Spider-Man, Dick Grayson aka Robin aka Nightwing, Wally West, most of the X-Men, etc.

[@alangreenway6695]

TheInfuckingcredible My point is in reality the teen superheroes of the 60’s should be drawing a pension by now but Spider-Man is still in college. DC instead destroys universes and reinvents them squished up to explain why Batman’s still bounding about when he should be close to 100. It’s really hard to write anything for a long time when characters don’t grow with age, but the fan base demands the original character. And the characters created between the 30’s and the 70’s really are a stone around the neck of Marvel and DC as they still outrank 99% of anything made after that time. The worlds are built on stagnation where we can’t permanently get rid of the fan favourites, but at the same time we can’t discard all those stories. Time really has no meaning in comics, so why should death?

[@rattyeely]

So you basically said you can't wait for star wars to be all white men again? Love it when someone lowkey outs themselves as a racist just to make a point about comics or something lol

[@alangreenway6695]

rattyeely A lovely bit of trolling there. My point is that whenever someone makes a story decision on a piece of work they did not create, it’s very easy to dismiss and change their direction in a way you can’t do it when it’s the creator writes a story arc. If George Lucas had decided to make Luke Skywalker a conscientious objector I bet people wouldn’t be calling for a complete u-turn in the story in the next film because it is HIS story. Continuity only applies to the innovator. I was saying it’s not just Death that gets ret-conned. Ice Man came out as gay 50 odd years after his first appearance, even though we never had the slightest suggestion from any other writer before. Nick Fury was popular portrayed as black in the ultimates and MCU, so there is a sudden ‘his black son we’ve never seen before is now the main Nick Fury’. It has nothing to do with being racist or homophobic, it has everything to do with not liking shoddy writing that slaps a different race or sexuality on an established character like some sort of cheap gimmick. North Star was always different as a gay character, because the way Claremont and Byrne wrote implied he could be gay, instead of of just having a writer change his personality completely. And that’s the real point of it all: the comics industry is stuck recycling characters from the golden and silver age eras with sudden personality and image changes because time has not killed them off for good and replaced them with different characters who have their own defined characteristics that reflect our far more multicultural, multiethnic, more equal society (or at least the one we may dream of). Without a real world passage of time there is no gravitas to a decision that the next guy can’t scrub out and impose his own will on. And it stifles the gradual introduction of new characters with that have their own identity that people grow to love. I’m not even placing all the fault on the writers- it’s inbuilt in comics that can’t move on from characters from the 40’s but have to somehow repackage them for eternity so they reflect the world now. So no, I don’t think I’m a racist or sexist or homophobic, at least I hope not.

[@StarlightPrism]

Pretty much. Comic book series go through a lot of writers, and those writers are all gonna have different ideas on how things should be done.

[@alanbear6505]

I'm not sure if it's still the case, but for a while when Marvel was launching a new title (especially an X title) they would have one character who would die in the first issue. Thunderbird in the relaunch, Blink in Generation X, Serpentina is X-Men 2099, and the list goes on. It became a game to guess from the cover which one wouldn't live through the issue. And of course most of them came back in one form or another.

[@redskared8093]

Huh. I thought the reason they didn't bring Captain marvel back was because marvel is too in love with carol danvers but yeah that sounds nicer.

[@GeorgeMutambuka]

Yep

[@zacharygadzinski3147]

Pretty much. How her movie does could impact things. Yet comics have no stakes. The movies and T.V. shows at least stakes. In my opinion Marvel and DC need to invest in a hard reboot if they hope to get new readers. Especially Marvel when it comes to it. Imagine death being permanent for characters who don't have resurrection powers and their children pick up the mantle. Sure they could use clones which could cheapen death, but they should have the clones develop different personalities while having the memories of the original. The clones distancing themselves from their relative would be a fresh take.

[@benb3316]

Way back I saw something, might have been the Muppets, might have been one of those cheap 60s cartoons, like Rocky & Bullwinkle... The stage is collapsed, everything has gone wrong, the main guy - I do think it's Kermit - standing there just mmmm..... about to quit. "The show must go on!" a character shouts from the side. "Why...?" He asks weakly. "Well, if it doesn't, we don't get PAID..." "The SHOW must Go ON!!!" the main guy shouts with renewed vigor! IMO they had no idea the comics would last this long. By the time they did they were big businesses and rooms full of suits decided if Spidey would swing up or down main street this week. And if he 'remembered' he was molested this month. So, while logically Robin should have grown up to become Batman once Batman retired, then his Robin replacing him while he died, maybe at half the ratio versus real world time, no way would a big company take a long term risk like that... Hmmm.... I'm a writer - no not going to promo my stuff under another name here. Not doing superheroes yet - consider it so saturated what could I add. This I could add... No, not doing 30 years of comics - but making a superhero universe that is a one how things mostly should have happened. Including a succession of various masks with proteges taking over from mentors while the hyper beings find new hyper beings that run different but complement them. Now, it has been done a little - Image comics, Barkerverse, Astro City, but not as much as it should. Don't mind typing it here, we need more intelligent writing - no not "new wave" de-construction and nihilism, but a new start.

[@kevinalford]

It matters in HELLBOY. The Mignolaverse is the only one that matters.

[@ingonyama70]

I read this as "Mojoverse". Blame my (not-so) inner X-Men nerd.

[@kevinalford]

@@mutuallysustainedhateboner1426 Oh, you're the mythical basement neckbeard! I thought you guys all died with Rob Liefeld and acid washed jeans.

[@austinreed7343]

The MCU has also started to play around with this sort of thing, while we do get a glimpse at two afterlives in the series, there's also weirdness like Loki. But otherwise? I'd say it's not as bad as the comics, simply by virtue of being live action films.

[@russellgarifulla1114]

They announced Cyclop's ressurection.

[@White_Tiger2169]

Do u know how Wolverine came back from dead I'm trying to find out

[@russellgarifulla1114]

It's still a mystery.

[@maniacalmattmedia1025]

The fans.

[@reunionortiz-luis449]

Awesome video as always. but you mention that Angel and Iceman were in the champions before X-Factor. but they moved onto the New Defenders after the Champions. in fact in the very last issue of the New Defenders #152 after the very last page there is a Marvel House ad for X-factor which make the events of New Defenders lead in to X-factor. didnt help that the sales were probably flagging and it was a great way to free up Iceman and Angel for X-Factor. Love your videos, They really bring me back to the good old days of comics :-)

[@animatedawesome5550]

I hate when characters are killed and they retroactively ruin their character like Gwen Stacy. Scratch that I just hate when characters are retroactively changed for the worse like with Aunt may in trouble. Poor spiderman.

[@williamwatson4354]

No mention of the biggest offenders, Warlock and Thanos. How many times have both of them died. Also, the original Doom Patrol and Sgt. Fury's Junior Juniper.

[@ERMediaOfficial]

In my comics (void-comics.com) death means something, because I do stories with an ending. There is character progression and death. Because I too feel like the 80s and 90s started killing too many and death means nothing in mainstream comics anymore...

[@eternal0star]

I echo your views on this pretty wholeheartedly. I think that it'd be nice if deaths mattered more. I do think that a 20+ year time limit is acceptable if the return is done right. I was a little sad that Captain America was revived so soon after Civil War. It was a very well done BIG moment in comics. I remember hearing about it on the news when it happened, can't get much bigger than that. Civil War in general was a great event. It was a death that they really needed to sit on. I could have seen bringing Cap back after even as short a time as like 8~10 years but less than 2 years.

[@coreylineberry8557]

But then it led to Secret Empire.

[@conradojavier7547]

I know it's Unrelated to Comics, but They need to Bringback Luke.

[@diegodankquixote-wry3242]

Luke cage the Netflix show.

[@jasoncarrasco7682]

Very well-said. I hope a lot of comic Editors in Chief see this. Characters not dying permanently, and coming back by strange means, are two reasons why I no longer read current comics.

[@blackphoenix77]

Barry Allen should've stayed dead; Wally West was a much better Flash. And now Wally's dead....for now.

[@AC-gb7do]

Better is subjective, Barry and Wally both have fans that would argue their favorite is “better”.

[@blackphoenix77]

@@AC-gb7do Like most comments on the internet, that was my own personal opinion and I wasn't speaking for everyone. Shocking, right?

[@oldmanlogan9616]

I prefer Barry, but he shouldve stayed dead.

[@joaobaptista7852]

I just love this channel so much! Keep the great content coming!

[@GWOutsider]

I'm glad that deaths in comics are not permanent for a number of reasons, mostly because killing off characters you would prevent other authors to write potentially good stories with said characters (just think about Red Hood or Winter Soldier, as popular as they are, or think about what would have happened if DC decided to keep all the BS that happened to Hal Jordan after Emerald Twilight while we had instead a legendary run). But I would really, REALLY love if the stopped this whole killing characters to sell thing, because it's fucking cheap and at this point I don't even think it works in boosting sales.

[@gunblade8674]

GWOutsider why? While killing a character means you can’t tell interesting stories with them never killing a character shows there are really no stakes in the comic. There are ways to kill characters to make interesting characters like red hood or winter soldier but permanently killing characters like Barry shows that death actually means something. Revival happens in a lot of media’s but it happens far to frequently in dc and marvel.

[@GWOutsider]

@@gunblade8674 and I honestly don't much care for stakes in comics. We need to remember a lot of people read comics to escape the harshness of reality. To me these are points being made by the old fart that is in every comic book fan and it doesn't take in consideration the younger audience. Let's kill off Superman and take out the main symbol of hope in comic books, who to many people mean much more than a form of entertainment. No thanks, doesn't attract me.

[@gunblade8674]

GWOutsider okay and? That’s the same reason why many people watch anime or play videos games difference being characters actually die well sometimes. What do you mean it does not take in consideration the young audience? I honestly don’t get your point if Superman did actually die for real his son can take up his role and it could actually mean something for his character along with if Batman actually grow old and died his son can become the new Batman and have stories around them for the new generation. It be more interesting to have the symbol of peace die to have someone try to follow in his footsteps that is more interesting than every comic book character doing their best impression of Jesus. Also more older people read comics than younger people in fact barely any young people read comics nowadays. My point is I’m getting tired of seeing comic characters losing all of their progression and going back to the status quo. What’s the point in buying a comic when I know batman will be retained back into not knowing Superman or not being on the league.

[@GWOutsider]

@@gunblade8674 I get what you're saying, don't get me wrong. For the points about anime and videogames: they don't exactly deal with 80 years old characters, mangas especially are creator owned and that's a different things about big properties like those of the big 2. The other point about the legacy characters is that they don't always stick. In fact I can really thing about Wally as a really functioning example, while the vast majority of the audience didn't care for most of the others. About the status quo: it has changed during most character's lives, like Jon Kent, Damian Wayne and lots of other things. Unless your are thinking about shitty stuff like One More Day, and in that case you are right. The point I was making is that some parts of the status quo is reassuring to lots of folks and also keeps the sales pretty much stable, whereas stunts like deaths, reboots and such only work for a short period of time.

[@gunblade8674]

GWOutsider mmm I see what you mean but in my case this causes me not to read a lot of comics because I know it will be rebooted eventually. Comics do not sell as much as things like manga which is definitely why comics reboot their characters to get more sales. So I can see why they do it

[@MaximilianDenisPatrickPonsonby]

Once i randomly picked up an FF comic and it was the death of the Human Torch and i found it profoundly impacting, even though he was my least favorite member of the team. Even as I read it I knew eventually he would be brought back, but i think it goes to show that character death's can mean something if its coupled with an emotional punch. Death of Superman is still an iconic story, even though we all know he came back, because it was the way he gave his life and how other mourned him that made it powerful. If an unkillable character can die, then it makes the reader fear more for the safety of other characters going forward. It helps remind us what the stakes are.

[@walterendres4829]

"You caught me dying ..." - I know I say that a lot, but: Best intro ever!

[@FadeIn2Obscurity]

They actually did bring Jason Todd back with the Lazarus Pit in the animated version of Under the Red Hood, and it makes a lot more sense.

[@someonewhocommentsonyoutub3779]

This has to be your best intro so far

[@helious5056]

Also will you ever do a video on stuff like usagie yojimbo, bone or my favorite elf Quest as a part of a possible fantasy month or perhaps on there own also another comic I would love for you to make a video on is persepolis.

[@TSOWizard]

Is next week's episode about Bone by Jeff Smith? If not, I'd love to see you do one about that some time!

[@defsnot]

13:30 Remember when Bucky went by NOMAD!?

[@MrChupacabra555]

12:57 : One of the things I Loved about "Avengers: Earths Mightiest Heroes" was how they handled Bucky coming back from the dead. In short, Captain America and Hydra were racing to get the Cosmic Cube, which would grant one 'wish' to whoever touched it. Cap got to it first, and there was a bright flash, and nothing changed. Later Cap was asked if there was anything he wished for, and he said something like "I wouldn't change anything that's ever happened in my life". Cut to a scene where Bucky is in the explosion, and his body falls into the water.....and then his eyes open! So secretly there was one thing even Cap wouldn't admit to: his sorrow over the death of Bucky......nevermind the whole Hitler Should Never Have Existed thing I guess 😅

[@dead_yellow]

I think the another big reason we see so many of those long standing deaths brought back, at least in the case of the iconic deaths at DC since that's all I know about, is new writers who read those comics as a kid start working at the comics companies wanting to write their favorite versions of the characters. I know in the back of some comics after final crisis there was a blurb by DiDio saying how he wanted to help bring back the 'true flash' of barry allen. Same with how Geoff Johns brought Hal back, dude's a massive GL fanboy.