Commander Chakotay brings up Ensign Kim's Reprimand

Star Trek Voyager Season 05 Episode 17 The Disease

[@DaveSomething]

and because of that, he'll be an Ensign the rest of the trip home!

[@Charmolution]

She also used this incident to retroactively justify why he wasn't promoted in the first 5 seasons.

[@Number6_]

​@@Charmolution all officers get there authority from fleet command, since they don't exist that far out, neither does her authority. If Kim has any balls he would demand promotion to Lt or with draw his labour until he gets it. Can't report him cant transfer him. Democracy would have taken over within 2 years especially given the situation they left back home.

[@retluoc]

Exactly... for the OP and the reply 😄

[@oddish4352]

It shouldn't have mattered. Harry should have had that hollow pip by the time Seven showed up.

[@giantclam1822]

And a virgin

[@bustedsim]

"I set the same standards for all my officers, now here's why you two have different standards."

[@Mark-xh8md]

The XO always is in a different position to the Captain than other officers. How is "Chain of command" a difficult concept to grasp?

[@Number6_]

@@Mark-xh8md how is captain Bligh a difficult concept to grasp?

[@Mark-xh8md]

@@Number6_ Yeah, you just repeated my question with a different name I have neither the patience nor the desire to spend time researching. Make your point.

[@Number6_]

@@Mark-xh8md I sure you don't have the skills or intelligence either !. My point is there for those who can understand it..

[@Mark-xh8md]

@@Number6_ It's a decent bet that I'm better educated, and more intelligent than you ;) And no, if an actually intelligent person wants to make a point in an actual civilized discussion, he/she/chopperself makes the point and not this vaguely tu quoque-bullshit.

[@gsnake007]

yeah that was messed up of Janeway to do that to Harry, who even before this should of been promoted up at least once with all the shit hes done

[@oddish4352]

He should have been a lieutenant by the time Seven showed up. And adding a reprimand for doing what Riker did every other show was inexcusable.

[@Mark-xh8md]

@@oddish4352 Riker was Picard's XO. Not an Ensign.

[@oddish4352]

@@Mark-xh8md If bumping naughties with an alien is against the rules, Riker shouldn't be allowed to do it either. And besides, Harry was under alien influence at the time. He could probably appeal to any doctor, including the EMH, to get the reprimand erased from his file.

[@MachineMetropolis]

I had a similar experience at school. Because i was the "good kid", i got punished harder than anyone if i ever stepped out of line. I didnt appreciate it..i felt like hey, I'm in the plus column here, chill.

[@TheBigExclusive]

Yeah it's unfair. Teachers usually come down harder on the good kids because they are afraid the good kids will slide and become bad kids. Try not to take it too personal. They came down harder on you because they thought you had potential and didn't want to see you waste it.

[@gregfisher962]

I know of this struggle.

[@carmelasanchez698]

I enpathise your thoughts and frustratuon. But look at it this way, you must step out side of the box for a moment. If you were severely penalized for a incident that may have seemed miner to you, but like you said your self, you were the good kid. You had an example to leed and to others and you must have had people or younger people looking up to you. Your a leader, Not a follower and followers don't get promoted, to lieutenant, lieutenant Commander, Commander, a number 1, Captain, Vice Admiral or Admiral.😑. I'm sorry. Its like someone earning a scholarship for collage. One wrong move and it's ripped from you like a new baby blanked. Nevertheless, im not trying to be mean. I'm simply looking at this as brutally, impartially, and totally as honest as I see them. Yes, there's gonna be times to want or out in a position to be become improper. Walk away! No matter how tempting it is or your first time, do you really wanna throw all you worked hard for away? 🤔 Like I said, out side the box. Or in someone elses shoes 👟. But Janeway did the right thing. Protocol, morally, Delta Quadrant, 70,000 miles away from home. Therea a story to my point. Then there's End Game. Harry became Captain right! It all worked out and will for you too or did it 🤔 thats a story id love to read my friend. I'm Ana btw. Nice to meet you. Sorry for the third degree, its just I have to give an honest answer. I'm an empath, If its the individuals fault, signed sealed delivered. Namaste. God bless, stay safe. Its crazy out there lol 😆🌈.

[@troyjollimore4100]

Same here. Pretty much made me lazy and unmotivated. Why bother, when you still never get praised, but mostly picked on for what you got wrong?

[@MachineMetropolis]

@@carmelasanchez698 that's the problem. I AM a leader. I'm different. I got a first class degree etc...but I don't fit in anywhere. I don't exist just to make corporations money, and I can't help e.g. animal welfare or environmentalist causes because I don't look like "one of them". People are too afraid to follow my lead when I stand up for injustices at work etc. In the end, I'm the guy who finds the people who society doesn't want and give them company. But we all end up poor and unempowered. That's just the world we live in. You can't do anything on your own, especially if you're poor.

[@riddlemaker7547]

Chakotay is hardly one to talk about spotless records given he joined the Maquis. Also, seems to me most of the best Starfleet Officers acquire a Reprimand or two. Picard gave one to Worf and Geordi, then Worf got another from Sisko. Kirk was flat out demoted back to Captain for disobeying orders. It happens, but is nothing officers of any caliber - such as Kim - let stand in their way. As to promotions, Harry was a member of Janeway's senior staff and arguably the most influential and unofficially highly ranked Ensign in Starfleet since Sulu.

[@josephmassaro]

deleted dialogue: Janeway: It also means I don't have to promote him to Lt. This keeps up, he'll be an ensign by the time we get back to Earth. Chakotay: Smart. Janeway: That's why I'm a captain.

[@blockmasterscott]

Janeway does have a point though. An ensign cannot question orders on the same magnitude as a first officer. Apples and oranges. For example, when I was in the Marines as a corporal, I could not talk to our commanding officer the same way that our First Sergeant could.

[@gregfisher962]

No she doesn't. Her point sucks. Chakotay said she would at least be willing to hear him out, even insist he speak up. Her response is that he is her first officer, and Harry is just an ensign who hasn't earned the right to question orders. That is why she is a horrible leader. As an ensign, he has to follow her orders, but she should at least hear him out. That's her failing. What kind of captain doesn't listen to those under their command, especially officers? She's the worst captain of the Star Trek Franchise IMO. For exactly that reason.

[@troyjollimore4100]

@@gregfisher962Which is why I’m guessing you have zero experience with ‘Chain of Command’… 🤦‍♂️ Like things today, do you want to stand around twiddling your fingers, listening to everyone ‘have their say’ (which is just b*tching because THEY don’t get to give the orders..), or do you want to get things DONE?

[@kadindarklord]

He's an ensign that should have been promoted by now.

[@bigfootwalker5399]

since Harry Kim doesn't know how to romance aliens without consequences then he'll never be a successful Starfleet officer! not only should Ensign Kim not be promoted but in fact he should be demoted!

[@Sonnabend00]

Janeway was incompetent, egotistical, a poor leader and a bad Captain.

[@bigfootwalker5399]

👎

[@TT09B5]

@@Sonnabend00 Yeah she was very double standard.

[@SchweitzerMan]

Later in the series the Doctor will willingly betray Voyager and side with some sentient holograms. Janeway will later refer to it as an "away mission"

[@armorer94]

How do you punish a hologram?

[@retluoc]

Ensign Kim was on a ship where (as Janeway said) didn't have any room for promotions. His entire life was a reprimand. 😆 Janeway could have increased his rank anyway without changing his duties.

[@Number6_]

As Janeway said. You are missing the whole point here. A dictatorial mentality is BAD officer. A person who climbs the ladder of success then pulls up and away behind them is the worst of all people and how the mackee got started and In a position to challenge star fleet command originally.

[@Omega_X_Factor]

Between this and the “Thirty Days” episode, I didn’t have the same love for Voyager after it.

[@Mark-xh8md]

I am no Janeway-fan to put it mildly, but IIRC the Thirty Days-episode is where Paris was demoted for basically deciding the ship's policy for himself simply because he wanted to? No Captain would stand for that. Nor should any Captain stand for that. This is one instance where Janeway was actually right.

[@Omega_X_Factor]

@@Mark-xh8md Torres and Tuvok got off with slaps on the wrist for nearly destroying the ship. Chakotay defied her orders. Suder got to chill in his quarters after he killed a man. Picard was willing to let a race die to keep up the Prime Directive, tried to talk to the giant killer snowflake instead of killing it, and told Riker he was right not to save a little girl. Sisko poisoned a planet’s atmosphere to catch Eddington which should’ve gotten a court-martial and then came off like a hypocrite when Quark became an arms dealer. How about Archer during the Xindi arc?

[@robertballasty395]

I missed this scene at the time. One of Chakotay's better ones.

[@geoffwilliams4478]

Honestly, Chakotay was only good when he questioned her. Especially when it came to the Equinox incident.

[@ApolloXL5]

Janeway's spider "You should eat Harry." Comedy Janeway "I'm not eating Harry, not while he's useful as my slave. But him giving another woman his time, that I will not stand for."

[@ReaverLordTonus]

"He's an ensign, he hasn't earned the right to question my orders" f*cking excuse you? First of all, how long have you all been out here and in that time how many instances has he come through for you? Second, regardless of the first point, as an officer it's not only necessary for him to question orders if he feels they are wrong, it's is freaking duty! Yes you get to have the final say and all but as a subordinate he is supposed to argue his position to the point of insubordination if he has to. Only after that when you've made your final decision does he not have a right to question it.

[@geoffwilliams4478]

Indeed. And this is really the ONLY time he f'ed up. I mean, seriously, a reprimand for getting laid without authorization? I doubt they'd get approval from the girl's "captain."

[@Basta11]

I would hope that in Starfleet, everybody in the chain of command has the right to question a superior's orders, especially if those orders are unlawful, immoral, strange, or plain stupid. Sometimes it takes a kid to say that the Emperor has no clothes. Now, there should be proper protocols and channels to do so for order sake.

[@jsquared1013]

in any heirarchical system, not just a military but even a "mixed-use" organization like Starfleet, you don't just go around questioning orders willy-nilly, especially not the most junior of officers to the equivalent of a full bird. Officers have a duty to disobey _unlawful_ orders (and implied to include unethical/immoral orders), and have an expectation to _raise concerns_ with legal orders if they feel they have insight, information, or a perspective that may have not been taken into account, but it must be done in a professional manner that respects the commander's final decision-making authority. That said, I don't remember this episode and whether the provisions above are applicable, and it seems Chakotay's point that it was an overly-harsh punishment has merit. Then again, I have been overseas in allied countries and have seen how a stupid, ordinarily minor error by a junior person can turn into an international diplomatic incident due to the cultural differences or agitation of the local host population.

[@geoffwilliams4478]

@@jsquared1013 Wrong. I may not have served, but every other man/woman I know who has served has reiterated, "When you're in the military, you're not trained to think most of the time. The only time when you do think is when you're dotting all i's and crossing all t's to make sure orders are authentic. 'Just following orders,' may keep you clean, but if you're an officer and in charge of a department, you better make sure those orders don't fall on you or your peers. If you know for certain you're getting illegal orders, follow the proper chain of command and get those illegal orders rescinded."

[@troyjollimore4100]

@@geoffwilliams4478But if you’re ‘in charge of a department’, you’re likely not a junior officer…

[@russellharrell2747]

Janeway reprimanded Harry because of Starfleet General Order K: Harry Kim can never be happy. A later addendum: Therefore Harry Kim will always remain an ensign.

[@Rendclaw]

Yeah she took that one a little personally. Her chihuahua snapped at her, for once.

[@ericterry4544]

She was jealous.

[@armorer94]

There's a military saying- "Shit rolls downhill". Harry just happened to be at the bottom of that hill.

[@Number6_]

This is the trouble with subjective authority. They dont need an objective reason to keep you down. Everyone is promoted or demoted on personal feelings. He can't leave she can't transfer him. I would demand it be removed or go on strike. What she going to do put him in the brig. That's Time off with pay.

[@ericterry4544]

Janeway was jealous. That’s all.

[@deanbrander8460]

Emphasis on LASTING

[@TheBigExclusive]

Janeway basically didn't want Ensign Kim to turn into Tom Paris. She saw potential in him, and didn't want to see Kim lose it. She was extreme, but also correct. Kim ended up being an Admiral many years later.

[@viccolantonio1691]

If Tom Paris father wasnt a admiral, he would never been promoted to Lieutenant

[@alliwishis_2]

Thank you for this Post.. I've always seen this in society since I've been alive but this scene this clip here puts several exclamation marks on things I already know Soo the devil actually does wear Prada humm Imagine that a female Captain who is on the edge of cynicism and nihilism taking her frustrations out on something that she see as so good it's as good as a little innocent lamb