Commander Players Hate "Battlecruiser" Magic - Play More Interaction! | MTG Reddit Story Discussion

[@PressXtoDoubt]

"Commander is a self regulating format." And other jokes you can tell others.

[@christianmiller4422]

"Removal is really good. I should run more". Is the following joke.

[@PressXtoDoubt]

@christianmiller4422 and then no one else runs removal so you waste all your cards and mana pretty much king making someone else

[@christianmiller4422]

@PressXtoDoubt which is why I just play 60 card formats.

[@PressXtoDoubt]

@@christianmiller4422 I used to too until Modern got fucked and Pioneer lost support for not allowing straight to format sets. I hope Pre Modern or Classic Modern pops off that would be great.

[@christianmiller4422]

@PressXtoDoubt I hope so, too. Otherwise, the pioneer is incredible now that the banning happened. Edit: classic modern is something I have only dreamed of, but haven't been able to play due to a already small commander group.

[@Nothing0Zero0Nill]

Commander is a format where you can play what you want how you want, but you have to do it the way I tell you and adapt as I see fit.

[@PajaKulebrc]

A lot of people have the viewpoint of: - Battlecruiser harder = I beat the table and win 1v3 - Interaction = you stop one player, you both go down in resources while the other two people get ahead which in mid-power pods is actually how things usually shake out... but you can't afford to skimp on interaction in high power / cEDH - because if nobody can stop what the archenemy is doing, it is generally GG on the spot

[@danielwong6468]

As the man who is quite frequently the archenemy of the table, I appreciate an opponent who runs no interactions.

[@eruantien9932]

@@danielwong6468 "You, I like you. I will kill you last." - Daniel Wong, 2024

[@TVdeaddeylan]

​@danielwong6468 exactly. If you don't run interaction then you have no way to punch up. The fastest deck will win more if it's opponents done run ways to remove their key pieces or have a way to reset.

[@huddleaw]

My playgroup is like this so I just switched to playing Aggro decks. Nothing like letting players figure out why they need to run removal themselves lol.

[@TheRealMonstaa]

This is the best answer! And also the reason why I started playing my Krenko list :D

[@mrTjstephens1]

I useally play at stores, so i always have a selection of styles i can play.

[@PsychoticSashimiS]

Very based lol

[@kaiseremotion854]

I've been wanting to make a RBW all boardwipe deck for a while now. from red's lower cost damage based wipes, to whites more expensive mass exile wipes. and everything in between

[@huddleaw]

@kaiseremotion854 as long as you have a way to win 😂 years ago, I played in a pod with a Child of Alara deck with the same concept and no way to win. To this day, we bring up how painful of a game that was.

[@jumpsteady1777]

People who complain about interaction are like fgc players who refuse to learn frame data but want to win. What do you mean i cant just do whatever i feel like doing with no punishment? The player who has friends who have never anti aired, and a guy rages because he finds when he verses a half decent player he dies to 7 flashkicks

[@Mofeization]

I used to get that all the time "Play more interactive card!!!" So I plays Kozilek

[@ThenewWereWolfGod]

I get called the local pubstomper at my lgs for literally this reason. I specifically make it so all of my deck barring the one actual high power one lose to removal. Not a single deck out of the 17 i have plays any kind of protection and very little recursion. All of my combos are several pieces and if you have a single removal or interruption im dead as hell. My lord windgrace deck? Blow up crucible i lose. Estrid? Blow up enigmatic or remove my enchantresses, rin and seri boardwipe once. And yet they would rather say im "playing overpowered decks, im pubstomping, im playing cedh." The deck that is high power is borderline cedh and i never play it unless everyone agrees to high power. Its so tilting to be accused of pubstomping because they wont play non creature based removal. At my store its like two board wipes and maybe 2-3 creature removal and maybe one counterspell thats it. And now when i build decks for people too they are sharing the title because i give them removal and a game plan its wild dude.

[@millenium1109]

This kind of story is the exact opposite of my normal experience. Everyone plenty of interaction even if they're not playing the strongest decks out there. Everyone at my LGS understands that being able to interfere with the game flow is important, and everyone fundamentally understands that they are going to get shot or countered if they pull ahead or go for game winning plays.

[@systemerror07]

well controlled, perfect order, everyone put in there place. dull, boring, a battle for ego, the same over all result every game. nothing Amazing happens here. over and over and over....

[@Goldfisher]

All of my local pods don’t believe in interaction. My Glissa Sagas deck is seen as OP because no one can deal with a 3/3 first strike death touch because there is no removal. Last game I played I asked after the game what removal everyone was running and there was one wrath (Crux of Fate) and one lightning strike. That was it. My deck was seen as running crazy high amounts of interaction because I had 2 creature removal spells, 2 artifact/enchantement removal spells, and 3 wrath’s. Also people just concede to wraths in my experience. They simply don’t want to go take the time to re-build. I used to run 7 wraths and cut it down to 3 because if I cast I wrath I would simply win on the spot, and if one wrath didn’t do it a second certainly would.

[@ShadowNinjaMaster93]

I'm half and half, mostly. I do agree that people aught to run more interaction than they do, and I do agree that all of them should be swinging and not just playing solitaire, (this is why goad is very quickly rising as one of my favorite mechanics in the whole game,) but most people's idea what a "proper amount" of interaction is will usually just result in 4 people sitting at a table unable to do anything but top deck, not even play solitaire. It really doesn't take much of it. The last thing anyone at my pod wants to see after 40 minutes into a game is a 4th boardwipe from the fourth player who has played their single one that game. Everyone is just considering scooping and going onto another game at that point. I also think removal has gotten too efficient and plentiful as well, and its warping deckbuilding away from top down deck building and instead reinforcing bottom up, where the commander is not the focus of the deck and is just kinda "there to fill the spot," where the commander is usually just a generic value piece, which honestly kinda just ruins the founding principle of the whole format. The prime example of a perfect commander deck is like my Tolvolar werewolves, it being a top down beat face aggro deck where I WILL reach critical mass and just 1v3 the table, but I'm getting there by actively sending my creatures to punch people TO advance my board state while also blowing up anything that might slow down my progress to reach that point before anyone else can or have the means of actually stopping me.

[@ElisaKaysCauldron]

Commander is really strange, removal and interaction is actually actively bad for you. You go down a card, remove 1 other card and then the 2 other players end up with advantage. What usually happens is you fight against one opponent winning the game, use 2 counterspells or 2 pieces of removal and then the next turn you lose the game. You're outta gas, you went down multiple cards compared to the other 2 players and now you're at a disadvantage. The only way to offset this is to play a ridiculous amount of card draw, everyone groans and TOR, Rhystic Study, Necropotence, Trouble In Pairs.... This is a major sacrifice that isn't seen in 1v1 games. 1 for 1 trade is great but a trade that puts 2 other players ahead of you is not so great. Board wipes are infinitely more effective as far as advantage goes but it's beyond miserable to play a game with 3 or more board wipes. 3 hours later everyone has no board state and someone casts Farewell.

[@erikhartig4818]

I do get where you are coming from with this comment. I know I've started adding more removal that deals with several things at once for a little more mana as opposed to just the super cheap (mana wise) single target removal in mid power to great effect. Stuff like Grasp of Fate in white, Aether Gale or Curse of the Swine in blue, Invoke Despair in black and stuff like that. I find cards like these, while a little more expensive, deal with several threats at the same time and do a better job of progressing the game state. I like to run at least a couple of these types of effects as part of my removal suite and am always looking for more to add to my decks.

[@BosSoxFan15]

@@erikhartig4818 In my black white decks I have cut cards like swords to plowshares and path to exile in exchange for soul shatters and flare of malices because they hit the entire table and you pay just a little extra to stay even on cards.

[@skellyxj1]

Sounds like your tables need to interact more if you're personally having to drop 2+ cards to deal with someone. In situations like that I usually see 2 or even all 3 other players come together to stop the threat. Also, I wouldn't feel so bad if you stop one person who is actively winning just to lose to the next player. If you chose to hold your cards (or didn't have any interaction) then you would have just lost to the first player anyways. Kind of have to address things as they come up, that's just the way the game goes. That being said, I do personally play a lot of draw when I can, but so do the people I play with.

[@skellyxj1]

There are also cards that are not full board wipes but also trade better than 1 for 1. Even if they cost a bit more mana wise I like to add a few of these in as sort of value interaction pieces that can clear out maybe 3 creatures or something.

[@jointhetorterra]

Board wipes also matter less to decks that care less about a board state. In my Izzet spellslinger deck, my commander dies and I just have to recast him and pop off next turn, whatever. In my Hazezon token deck though, usually a board wipe is devastating if I get caught without protection and usually I just lose the game on the spot.

[@dreyfus37_65]

This whole thing just sounds like commander players doing what they do best: complaining about how someone else plays commander

[@Tychonaut-wg3]

To teach my play group about running more interaction, i re-tooled my Wizard Typal deck to running 43 instances of interaction. Anyone attempting to go off was met with enough Nope to keep the table level. They got the message, they need more interaction.

[@jonasl9068]

…Why? I mean, are they even gonna play with you again?

[@Cryogenicbanana]

Sounds like the message they got was they need to find someone to replace you at the table.

[@VociferousCaster]

Please share this wonderful deck. I wanna see how it works.

[@Asghaad]

thats the fastest way to get kicked off from that playgroup ... and worst thing you arent even realizing it

[@ZanettesPlace]

All these people dont play interaction.

[@TheAngelRaven]

I'm the type of player that enjoys Battlecruiser decks and go-wide Elfball. My first deck was Lathril and my go-to beater deck is Jodah The Unifier. I have enough interaction in my Jodah deck when it isn't being pushed to try for cEDH; URB and maybe 2 other targeted removals. Why? Because I don't sit down expecting to be allowed to do what I want, I expect to be seen as the priority to kill first every game. Jodah will live and die by being set back and ignored a turn too long. Lathril, however, has enough interaction and speed for it to either survive and combo off OR work long enough to win. I only truly hate HARD Control, Pillowfort, and Stax decks. Decks that want to sit back and either combo off safely or win through mindnumbingly painful attrition. I hate games where it gets exciting, only for Johnny to play Faerie Mastermind with 2 Smothering Tithes on board. [I had this happen in a game, the other two players had zero issue with this player not only having an early ST, but COPYING IT.]

[@twhittaker4343]

Whoever named this concept doesn't understand what a battle cruiser is. Battle cruisers are inherently aggressive and interactive without redundancy but quicker than anything as powerful

[@minorfffanatic]

It came about in the relative infancy of commander when it was still called EDH and in relation to the set Rise of the Eldrazi (aka the first Zendikar block) where an article on Wizard's website mentioned how Starcraft players occasionally and recreationally instead of Zergling rush (or similar) would purposely not attack each other until the late game where Carriers and BATTLECRUISERS were king.

[@nicklarocco4178]

Commander is actually just extremely expensive Munchkin.

[@icesamurai8]

I’ve never heard this term before but I’m hundred percent a battle cruiser player. I don’t mind losing more often but I try to stick to groups that are lower levels. I think it’s possible best to play with the groups you’re comfortable with.

[@SwedeRacerDC]

Battlecruiser style of magic was the way the EDH format played until overcompetitive players started to flock to the format because wizards failed to manage their other formats. It's not that there was no interaction, but players weren't trying to optimize their deck to beat every other deck as fast as possible. They were trying to figure out ways to make their strategy win while other people are also doing their thing. I agree that It's nice to play with an established play group, but also don't be afraid to play with new people either and see if they are another good person to play with or if they just misrepresent their deck because they want to win all the time and don't understand that winning 25% is actually right about where you want to be

[@ItWatchesWithoutEyes]

My favorite deck so far has been a 6-piece combo deck helmed by Disa the Restless, relying mostly on her ability to reanimate Goyfs that hit your graveyard from anywhere other than the battlefield. The combo itself is extremely telegraphed and very easy to interrupt, but if you allow it to assemble, you’re screwed. Using a combination of Chromatic Orrery, Mana Echoes, Greater Good, Maskwood Nexus (or a similar effect), and Kozilek, Butcher of Truth. Once Kozilek enters, you add mana via Echoes, sacrifice to Greater Good, draw a bunch and discard three creatures if possible, reshuffle the library, rinse and repeat until you generate infinite mana and play all your creatures, pyrogoyf ping everyone for game.

[@jbs6614]

sometimes, it’s nice to have games where you don’t have to think too much, like a chill game of sorts. I play cedh and mid-to-high power but there are times where a simple game of do-your-own-thing-and-watch-the-pod-go-brrrr feels good.

[@SwedeRacerDC]

Battlecruiser is actually really fun and interesting if you know what you're doing. The problem is most commander players don't seem to know how to find interesting and useful cards for this strategy. It's not that there's no removal at all, but every board wipe gives you an advantage. Every piece of removal synergizes. You can use cards like Heat Stroke and Angel's Trumpet to make Battlecruiser more interesting. Again, removal can be a part of the plan, because after all, a "battlecruiser" has guns and other weapons. It's offensive. But it needs to fit in the ship. This usually means less removal and more attacking, but interaction doesn't always work great for you. Usually the player who plays the board wipe sets up the next player with an advantage, unless someone had a way to protect some of their pieces. Anyone who plays targeted removal and counter spells puts themselves back as well as the player they hit. Finding synergistic removal is key to advancing your plan while hindering others. Maybe using removal that can hit multiple things as well to balance it out. I play a decent amount of removal in both decks, but honestly I think there's a trend towards too much these days. Too many board wipes resetting people's game plans and making the game go longer than it would have if everyone was just advancing the game for themselves. Dropping a board wipe while you have Avacyn out is something else. But just blowing everything up just because you want to reset the board and don't get an advantage is prolonging the game and then whining about the game going on too long. This is irritating. But yeah, playing zero pieces of removal and not wanting to is strange to me.

[@systemerror07]

i probably have a "battlecruiser" deck or two. this is not what i mean though when i say people are playing too much removal/ interaction. what i was saying to my friend is there is a balance for removal where if you play too much then the group will devolve into an arms race or decks full of removal. my group suffers from this. i just want to throw cards and build a board state. . that being said in cEDH its all fine. but i like to see other people play cards too. i want to see what ur deck does but id like you to see what mine does next game then .. like we build these decks but if the game ends in 8 cards played or you dont even let people play cards. you never see what a deck can fully do, rarely. i find most people who play heavy removal dont want to play with someone they just want to stop someome from playing at all. my opinion doesnt mean anything.

[@thechikage1091]

Interaction is fun to see as my group builds decks in ways that break parity and assume critical masses, making lots of interaction essential. It's a lot more in the style of a competitive format, though the decks don't operate in that power space. We don't build decks for linear growth, we build for building to a critical mass and breaking parity.

[@JustinVanTrump]

I used to run multiple board wipe/sweepers in all of my decks, but I agree with the complaint of when I draw all of them and just play them one after the other is annoying, so I now only run two or three in some decks instead of five or six in every deck, exceptions being Farewell, Austere Command, and Blasphemous Act which are cards I run in almost every deck that can as long as I have a copy to put in the deck

[@lordroyalnightmare]

Well, this will be controversial, but I'm saying it anyway: Too much removal is BORING. You think the "battlecruiser" decks do nothing? Try sitting in a pod with someone with Dimir deck with at least 20 counterspell/removal cards. Every time you try to do something, it's either countered on the spot or removed before you can utilize it. And I don't just mean "No! You countered one spell out of my last 12", I mean sitting with a board of lands, mana rocks, and few jump blockers, with 1 card in hand because for some reason they decided to counter what little card advantage you could muster. I run interaction, and I have added more. But it feels like every time I start to run more interaction, it's all I can seem to draw. Then all I can do is sit at the table and stop other plays from getting to play the game. Yes, run removal, that should go without saying. You need to be able to stop your opponent's from winning so you can try to win. But too much removal and you aren't stopping them from winning, you're stopping them from playing. Personally, I would rather play the game and lose than keep everyone from playing and win.

[@emilianoflcn]

So you know I see your point on if everyone is removing everything it becomes a slog, but that is the actual philosophy of a control deck. "Stop them from having just about anything and win with only a few cards over the course of many turns." My shorikai vehicle deck will pretty much never win in one, two or even four combats even with setup, but it will (hopefully) make such a massive difference in card advantage it effectively wins the game Edit: It will just about *always* suck when two or more people are playing control/stax decks because of their nature. I wouldn't say your post is controvertial but it does require the acknowledgement that unfortunately some decks do have that as their game plan same as the combo decks casting their two or so cards and winning on the spot. Like "Really? You end the game right when it was starting to get good?" kind of feeling

[@lordroyalnightmare]

@@emilianoflcn You make a fair point! I suppose I was mostly reacting to "run more removal" phrase that I've grown tired of hearing. I feel like my original statement "Too much removal is boring" is something a lot of "solitaire" type players echo. It isn't entirely that it feels bad or even that it sucks when your combo/big board is stopped. It's that building up that big board state and setting up that combo is what's fun for a lot of people. Yes, you need to run interaction, but to some players, players who like advancing their strategy, being told to run more of something that slows other players down just seems uninteresting. I get it, especially at higher power levels where you have to have answers ready very early on, but when the table is lower power and players are used to games lasting longer before you have to really start worrying, seeing a lot of removal early on sucks some of the fun out of the game. Rather than building something up until either you get knocked down or someone wins, you just keep getting blocked from even starting. I remember hearing somewhere that Stax was created for more competitive games, where it can only take a few turns for the game to end. When you put something like that in a slower, casual pod, it just stops all progress. With the comments I've seen about players not wanting to play their removal for fear of becoming the archenemy; I'd honestly say that "removal makes you are a target" is as valid as "run more removal". Interaction is a double-edged sword, being able to take out big threats makes YOU a threat. Kinda went on a few tangents, I think about this a lot. Either way, I see your point. There are many ways we all play this game, and it's best to be prepared for all of them. If you want to play a certain way, and you think certain strategies aren't fun to play against, that's something to discuss with your table

[@aremmm]

As someone with a mono black deck with, i think, 30% of my spells being creature removal, it IS boring but someone has to do it. I also only run creature removal just so I can go "well, you have better colors to deal with that card type..."

[@bqing87]

I’ve always said this and it stil remains to be true. The one thing that makes games take longer over politicing in edh is blue. The control aspect of that color makes games become slow and stalled. If there’s no blue at the table; even in lower power pods, games just go faster.

[@ANDELE3025]

Its a gaslighting done in all card games that allow out of your turn actions that block enemy from playing. Its exactly why counterspells/summon negates/cancels and co focused decks back in the early early days were called noninteractive, because they prevent the actual interaction of slamming creatures and sorceries/monsters and spells/spirit moves/champions against eachother.

[@Trazaeth]

Edh is simply not worth the headache of dealing with three opponents acting like petulant children

[@HavocTheWendigo]

I mean interaction is fine but if you play nobody gets to do anything the deck you better be very sure your ready for a 1 v 3. I would know I was the guy that did and it drains the fun from the game

[@pickler_pickler]

? You're playing with wrong pod then. My pod is based and we just make fun of whoever is being a baby

[@hamaja18]

That is the only kind of Commander players I have met. Anyway, these people still thinking Commander is a Magic format...

[@Andrew-yb2gs]

@@hamaja18 To be fair it's probably most similar to the kind of games we were playing back in 1997. Current standard has very little to do with the original experience most people had of kitchen table magic in the 90s.

[@cjh.1920]

You got the wrong pod brother. Find another.

[@terreneprime4930]

Magic Players: Bleh Your deck is bad! Bleh! Also Magic Players: Bleh Your deck is just top synergistic cards for your deck of EDHREC, Learn to deck build! Bleh!

[@kennystamper7873]

I have some friends who all don't like running board wipes as a group

[@damonsteine1185]

We try to avoid drama by just being honest: we all agree that we are playing for fun and its definition varies personally, some as winning, or some as just running their decks as far as they can. With that in mind, nothing is illegal, and feelings don't belong to the table: the stax player is free to do stax things and most possibly die first because of it. Nobody whines when when his spells are countered one after the other because why should your spells resolve anyway for your personal advantage. Each of us is out to win, again, that definition varies from person to person, so everything legal in the game is permissible. Do your politics, breaks promises, betray, be cunning as you wanna be to push your game agenda , and may your spark remain burning brightest. Tldr: we just play to play as mature as possible

[@raymondcarter4335]

Commander players hate everything. They hate battle cruiser magic, they hate control, they hate removal, they hate combos, they hate win cons, they hate stax, it’s a problem when such a broad audience is over generalized.

[@drewforchic9083]

The trick I’ve found for getting me to run more interaction/removal in my big battlecruiser tribal decks is to find spells that still fit that tribal theme, so it doesn’t feel like I’m compromising the theme to play the interaction. Like, my dragon deck or angel deck didn’t have enough removal? Add Fiery Annihilation or Destroy Evil. There are bound to still be interaction spells that fit the theme, you’ve just to look harder than filtering by creature type.

[@LadyDecibelle]

I feel like this is a great conversation to have in Rule Zero. I play a very aggressive deck, and I explicitly tell people that I run a chunk of interaction and targeted board wipes. If I leave other players alone, they will always win. Pods are very understanding of that explanation.

[@dragonqueenniisan4122]

There is a strong difference from 'having interaction' to sacking your enemy with constant strings of it. If you play smart, and slow with it, you can curb the game. Another big thing, is dont keep hitting the same one person. Ive been at games where I got Silenced, into 3 counterspells in 2 turns by the same person. Thats just being an ass at that point. The kicker, they couldnt stop the infinite because they didnt hold the 1 counter and the whole table died to them not playing their interaction in a meaningful way. I find counterspells are often the saltiest interactions, especially the cheap ones. I play plenty of Saruman, so I get orcs for using overly expensive counterspells and people react to that better. But if you end up seeming like that guy too often, dont do back to back board wipes, dont tefiri's on your mass removal to dodge the drawback. Not everyone game needs to be a turbo win, not every game needs to be a stomp, we need to remember we are at a table with other people and the social experience is supposed to be enjoyable for all. Hell, maybe dont play the Sol Ring turn 1 and play it turn 2 to seem like less of a threat. There are actions you can take to subtly make the game in your favor, but still bad for your friends while you go for the win. The best win, is not fully seen coming until its too late, dont make it a 1v3 feeling by going too hard unless you actively want to. Im not saying you shouldnt play optimally, but you can play strategically.

[@cjh.1920]

I’ve been playing magic pretty regularly for a little less than a year, and admittedly my play group does some pretty high level EDH so that’s all I’ve really been accustomed to. That being said I cannot fathom not having interaction in a commander deck, not only for protection but for fun?.. A lot of the enjoyment I get out of the game is saving myself or another player from certain death or stopping an overwhelming tide of damage. It’s *not* fun in my experience to wait for 15 minutes for someone to take their turn and overwhelm the board, only for you to take another futile turn and lose. My pod skates the line between cEDH and regular EDH and we still manage to have some very long(2+hours) and very fun games. Also my Dakkon Blackblade deck would like to have a word with the guy who thinks voltron doesn’t run interaction.

[@Zeferet.]

I played against someone yesterdat that always gets mad when we interact with him, like are we just supposed to watch you combo off or build yourself a battleship of stuff? Then we try to tell him to get more interaction in his deck he gets mad at us. It is frustrating and puts a real damper on the mood. Like, should I just let you build up an army of tokens and let you craterhoof us when i have either counterspells, board wipes or removal?

[@edwardhawkins4206]

As someone who has a lot of decks that fall into this kind of category, there are a lot of times when it basically comes down to me saying to the table, “have you got it?” and when they do, they do and that’s ok. You can’t blame people from stopping you winning the game. And if they don’t have it, we shuffle up for another one

[@yoitsgunattack]

I don't like battlecruiser but i got to say it. If the other 3 people are playing battlecruiser and your the one who isn't. You are the problem and you should adapt to them or find a new group.

[@TheDJYosh]

There are also strategies that can flourish in Battlecruiser metas in a more gentle way that nudges the format. Play some light Pillowfort pieces or add Goad to your deck. If the players don't want you to interact with them, force them to interact with you.

[@wdeborde]

If you view interaction as you going down resource along with whomever you are targeting, you are playing your interaction wrong. That's bad play, not bad card choice. Just like you never counter the tutor, never waste your removal on things that aren't going to break your back. Removing Rhystic/Tithe/Pairs or any other one card value engine just because it annoys you isn't getting you anywhere.

[@bobito3booby375]

To be fair if no one in the pod is paying for rhystic that can win people games. I hate playing in pods where someone plays mystic or rhystic don’t pay their taxes and complain about how strong the person who played it is.

[@TheDJYosh]

The one card value engines are always the thing you should be removing first. If have an Anguished Unmaking in hand, removing the Rhystic Study means they are much less likely to draw the threat you are saving your removal for. Why would you ever let an opponent keep something like that in play unless there was another more immediate problem on board?

[@benashley4837]

Upping my level of interaction has been the turning point in making my decks more successful - especially utilizing sweepers that synergise with the deck list. For example starfall invocation in my niko list leave opponents with an empty board and allows me to get another ETB from my general. With one card ive progressed my gameplan and am now up on resources. Well timed removal can be a huge tempo swing and it allows you the time to dig for wincons and stay relevant

[@greatbrandini3967]

First off, is this actually what people define as battle cruiser? I always thought of BC as decks just winning through fair beat down strategies and generic value pieces. These decks, when combined with plenty of board interaction, make for some of the most fun back and forth games IMO. I think this is more of a deck building problem plaguing the BC archetype rather than an inherent problem with BC. That said, I don't think board wipes and 1 for 1 removal is the answer, people need to play more cards that are either repeatable, are able to multi target, or have synergies with your deck.

[@emilianoflcn]

Half and half. Having some 1 for 1 removal is just necessary because it's usually cheaper than repeatable and things happen. But running game plan pieces that also happen to be removal is usually better. I point to surgehacker mech as an example. 5/5 menace that deals damage equal to twice your vehicle count to a creature (maybe planeswalker can't remember). By himself it's 2, with others it goes well above 10 sometimes

[@johngavin2570]

So basically "go wide" is no longer a "fair" strategy.... smh. There used to be two winning deck styles in my playgroup: go big (voltron) or go wide (boardstate). Just because my boardstate doesn't interact with yours doesn't mean there's no interaction, it's just *my* stuff interacting with *my* stuff. It feels like today more players expect Commander to be like tossing around a football. People complain when you throw the ball too hard, even though it's literally a game you're supposed to win.

[@rhysjonsmusic]

@johngavin2570 it's not that going wide is "unfair" it's entirely valid way of playing, it's just that if you do choose to play a going wide strategy and you choose to play 0 cards that actually interact with the other 3 people at the table, it just means you have absolutely no room to complain when I win with my super telegraphed "I win now" card because you and the other going wide decks run no removal to stop it

[@filosfilos4572]

@@rhysjonsmusic I take issue with combos that let you straight out win, like Doomsday plus that Jayce that says "draw, but if you have no cards in your library, you win". Either I have something on my field or hand that allows me to remove your Jayce, or I have a counterspell in my hand. The problem is, these combos are usually executed with the cards you have in your hand, so most of the time I have no way to see them coming. I tap all my mana, develop my board state, play creatures that I can use to protect or develop my board further, because I'm not expecting you to draw the combo pieces anytime soon. And yet you do, you win, and I complain. I should probably play more control-oriented creatures

[@dannybeane2069]

What i like to do in this situation is bait the arch enemy into attacking me; even gaslight them into attacking me. Because if i know I have the least likely chance of drawing the out, I would rather be focused down to buy a turn for the others to win. One of my favorite examples, my opponent had a debilitating drain deck and a few powerful creatures. I used a Giden of the Trials to prevent all damage target permenant would deal and targetted a card that caused us to lose life, not take damage. It gets back to archenemy's turn, he creates two 2/2 zombies and then drains us all for 2. Everyone followed, no one broke the rules. Combat comes around, he's indecisive on who to swing at. I then say, "well i did use Gideon of the trials to stop you from draining us." He then says, "huh, yeah you're right" and swung wide at me. I boldface lied to his face about something that happened 30 seconds ago, didn't even cheat him out of anything, and he bought it. Ultimately, we didn't make it that time. But I have seen it work.

[@cread13]

No matter the power of your deck each one needs removal. Only except is hyper focused glass cannon combo decks that are all in on the win no matter what else is happening.

[@willclevett7560]

I feel personally attacked xD My dragon deck is mostly a 5 colour pile of the coolest dragons (bout 40) and most the rest is mana because my mana curve is all 6+ mana 2-3 colour cards. Ive tried to include interaction, and tbf many dragons do interact in their own way, but its really hard to change without breaking the reason I made the deck in the first place. Ive wanted a 5 colour massive dragon deck since i pulled a dragon arch in the early 2000s, and its great fun get all the new and old legendary dragons out.

[@mibbzx1493]

I honestly think its not that people they don’t run removal, people just aren’t responsible with what they they choose to remove. I had a dude who kept removing my 1/1 tokens or use it on creatures that have already used their ETBs for instance. Its more about being more efficient and holding themselves accountable by saying “dang if i saved that swords for a turn or two later, the outcome could have been different”

[@skellyxj1]

Why do "battlecruiser" and interaction have to be mutually exclusive?

[@maximillianhallett3055]

They shouldn’t be. Battlecruiser is a form of midrange. Midrange plays efficient answers while they build up a board state, but until people stop saying 1 to 1 removal is bad, nothing will change. I don’t like brussel sprouts, but I eat them because they’re good for my health. Single target removal is like that too. If board wipes become the only form of removal, expect to see more counterspells.

[@johngavin2570]

​@@maximillianhallett3055 I love brussel sprouts, I don't get to eat them for my family's health (they make me fart)

[@johngavin2570]

Dunno how you do them, but... -Pan fry 4 strips of bacon, make extra crispy, save for later. -add a small amount of olive oil to the bacon grease -halve your sprouts -panfry with the insides down, until the halves are soft, and slightly charred on the bottom -while the pan is hot, add a few splashes of balsamic vinegar, let it cook into the sprouts for a minute or two, until fully evaporated. -remove from heat, place in bowl -grab that bacon from before, chop into bacon bits, mix in. *you can substitute pork belly for bacon for an extra savory experience You might not like brussel sprouts, but I hope this recipe helps.

[@Cybertech134]

@@johngavin2570 I already love brussels sprouts, but that recipe sounds phenomenal!

[@Anythingiwant1939]

Hey new play who have played only about 5 commander games with my friends and I’m loving it but I realize while watching this that I’m a battlecruiser? My deck is trash so idk if it’s considered battlecruiser but I’m essentially ramp to play big creatures using Kona, Rescue Beastie. My question is what is interaction for mono green? Would bushwack “one creature attacks another” count as interaction? Idk, I thought my “interactions” were the effect’s my creatures, one of them destroys enchantments and so on. I’m perfectly fine getting countered and targeted which I’m happy to say as I enjoy just watching the game unfold but I never thought of me not having interaction affecting other players in a negative way. My thought process was “if I have not counter spells then I won’t upset anyone” which I see now is wrong as other will rely on me to have one to counter the “raid boss” as I put it. I know the counters for black white and blue and maybe red is something like shock, but green has very few spells I feel that counter anything let alone are also instant. I found a few but maybe I’m just missing them on max field it’s very hard to find specific cards tbh since there are so many.

[@stevekeenan9673]

As a 1 drop specialist, the only thing to fear is chalice

[@stephenpeckham2564]

@@stevekeenan9673 chalice doesn’t really exist in casual battlecruiser games

[@pickler_pickler]

Chalice sucks

[@Zaelkrie]

The people who taught me commander told me I need at least 5 board wipes and 5 point removals in every deck, I increased the pinpoint to six but that's not my only removal and the people I've taught to play I told them the same thing.

[@MagdaGust62]

5 board wipes I think is a little too much, and 5 target removal is too little?

[@ratdoto2148]

Commander often feels more comparable to DnD than Magic.

[@ArsisKytori]

Had someone on spell table kick me from their room, because I turn 1 Sol Ring + Azurious Signet. Then played Aminatou turn 2, then turn 3 Surveiled into an Exquisite Blood, then the room creator started yelling and cussing me out, saying I was pub stomping in a high power level 7 room. Tried explainig that I got lucky on the Sol Ring open and the Blood top deck, and then kicked me out

[@TheDJYosh]

Plays like that are entirely possible from most Precon Decks, that's crazy.

[@SilverionX]

As always, communication is the key. Tell your friends what you want to do when you play Magic. And if your friends your friends still don't want to do the thing you want to do, simply find new friends. It's not like you have to throw them out of a two story window or never see them again, just don't play Magic with them.

[@eruantien9932]

Hmm, looking at my edh deck that isn't stax. Does Dismiss Into Dream count as interaction? (Don't worry, I'm playing a dimir deck, I have counters and spot removal for days. Hells, I'm running thrice-damned Declaration of Naught as a trauma response...)

[@Mazz-Mayhem]

This is usually how my play group wants to play while im chilling being the archenemy. My brother specificly hates that play a good amount of removal and protection in all of my decks, even my lower power budget builds

[@andysteel14]

I feel like wotc has done an alright job of printing 3 for 1 style card effects in all five colors (ie; pick your poison, sheoldreds edict, etc) that really shine in a format like EDH.

[@CrowbornChaos]

Always attack the guy with negates. Just simple magic rules people tend to follow.

[@mvanoven11]

Dimir player here. I run 16 counterspells and have multiple creatures with etbs that will destroy creatures. I use to be a battle cruiser player so I understand the reason but I got tired of losing to the pubstompers or spike plyers so I made sure that I spent the time and research to build a deck that I would enjoy but also had a lot of interaction

[@CopperCooper420]

I build decks to win. My mono white angel EDH deck is almost complete. Buying Sunfall as an epic one sided board wipe before it keeps going up in price. Lots of interactions in my deck. Better find a CEDH pod so no one cries.

[@kaiseremotion854]

better have a way to stop turn 1 wins that bypass removal than? its a gradient lol. yea there are decks that don't really have wincons at lower levels, but there is a big difference between high level and Cedh. For example: I've been wanting to make a 65 boardwipe deck, its not gonna win vs cedh decks but it will decimate anything of medium power

[@Faroonite]

I very recently removed all the removal and interaction from my iluna mutate deck, but I think it was somewhat offset by me clarifying before every game exactly that. “I don’t run interaction, don’t look at me for help when someone becomes a problem” So far no one’s objected and if they do, I’ll play a different deck, or find a different pod.

[@Hunter-sw3rl]

The general vibe of this vid being better Edh always equals more interactions is kinda off since it leads to less decks with themes and more slotting in the same cards over and over again watering down flavor

[@ThatMillGuyShaf]

This genuinely makes no sense, there's thousands of cards out there and you can find removal and interaction that is "thematic" through art or function, there's no excuse LOL

[@MrMarvelMike]

Bro you have a 100 card deck. 8-10 pieces of interaction all you need outside the core of your deck.

[@Asghaad]

@@ThatMillGuyShaf whats funny is that this is literally "Control player complains about midrange"

[@mrpoparq]

I played a control heavy combo deck with talion. It honestly is one of my favorite decks and basically just made me become the king in every game since I’m the only one with interaction

[@danielbakumenko8711]

This is why I have built Rakdos control: If everyone wants to build their engine as fast as possible and not be able to stop anyone elses engine, then I will stop everyones engine by making my own removal engine.

[@MegaRageman_DSMTG]

This is part of the reason why I play CEDH.

[@AgentFulgoreBasedDepartment]

same here. i'll also play high power, and i'm upfront with everyone about going for the win ASAP. if they don't interact and lose because of it, that's their problem.

[@frog4death]

My friends love to run interactions. I learned really quickly that I need to add more interaction in my decks or I’m just going to be a constant target for their removal spells.

[@HeWhoisHim.]

Fun fact: the opposite of battle cruiser magic is an aminatou the fate shifter deck with every board wipe it can fit and pretty much every other card operating as a multi removal piece or counterspell

[@PaulissVegan]

i need more examples or playstyle description of: battlecruiser deck?

[@jolteon345]

There's two flavors of battlecruiser games. The first flavor is the "boring" type. Everyone is so focused on doing the cool thing that there's little-no interaction. This flavor of battlecruiser also leads directly into decks rebuilding from sweepers FAST and can rebuild multiple times, so using a sweeper is just a detriment to yourself because all you do is look like a chew toy for an aggressive dog. These are also the kind of battlecruiser games that end up with the board in a stalemate unless someone has big tramplers or some form of evasion. Then there's proper battlecruiser. Yes it's still a mid power game, but there's actual interaction, meaningful plays, you end up with different people taking the lead. You want interaction in a battlecruiser meta, you just don't want too much interaction. Things shouldn't feel oppressive. Think of this like a "normal" game that ends in the turn 11-15 range after about 1.5 hours of playtime. The key is being able to identify what kind of battlecruiser you're getting yourself into. I've played in both varieties of battlecruiser games, and the only thing that feels worse than the boring battlecruiser game is the game where you feel like you can't do anything.

[@psych0CS2]

My main deck is Narset, Enlightened Exile. So my goal is to cast interaction and then steal your shit or take extra turns and copy my extra turn spells with Kitsa. I have cards to swap out depending on what the table wants. Higher power? Ill throw in Elsha since i have Senseis top to go infinite, or i can go LED Underworld breach brainfreeze with wheels. Lower power ill take out the fetch lands and proxied duels and the mox diamond to replace with basics or tap lands.

[@AnonYmous-mc5zx]

Battlecruiser magic is often the more efficient way to close out a game of 4 players. The first person to take the lead often loses. Partially because it's incorrect that there's no interraction. You need interraction to trapcard your opponent's combo piece. Your games where there's an archenemy isn't an issue of "no one else runs removal!" (Where's your answer to the archenemy?) someone doesn't become the archenemy until they become untouchable. At that stage the issue is on them to close the game out. They built a wall with no teeth. You don't notice the games where a guy suddenly kills all 3 of you but those are the end result of cruiser games.

[@RalphThePyro]

Gonna be real...I have NEVER heard of the term "Battlecruiser" until now...

[@dannybeane2069]

I've had games where removing necropotence was the bad threat assessment cause i didn't know an Elish Norn was going to board wipe everyone.

[@somerando86]

You can have a fun and more casual oriented deck while at the same time not going full battleship. While I love my tribal fairy deck, I play spells to support that strategy or something and get away with it. I include more than enough removal as well as counterspells to deal with the rest of the board.

[@MarioJPC]

I am going to be honest, I play a bit of this way, but mostly because I am so tired of ultra-reaction Magic: Arena... I've seen sweepers to 1 or 2 small creatures on 10+ life, 4 mana removal against a 1/1 token created by a land still in play, counter magic to manadorks... And against that things I win many times because/despite I build things and the other only react. But at same time, I am reactive and active. My "battlecruise" deck needs to creatures going to the graveyard, so I attack and I block, I sack things, self-mill and so go so on, but it is low on interaction as a deck building requirement and synergy with Nethroi with Umori companion combination.

[@MikeTheBFG]

I don't add too much removal because it tends to nerf my strategy.

[@TargetSniper365]

That’s why you lose to any high power deck. You only beat precons and Timmy clowns

[@MikeTheBFG]

@TargetSniper365 you misunderstood. I don't play too much interaction because it leads to exactly what you said. Only winning against precons because thats all Timmy clowns play. my win rate is actually pretty high. The only thing the Battle cruising does is annoy other players, I guess, because they have to put interact above playablity. I put playablity over interact and it works for me (enough of the time, about 25% which is twice the normal commander win rate.) It's an, other people's problem.

[@TargetSniper365]

@@MikeTheBFG so you are telling me you beat custom well constructed mid to high power decks with almost no removal? Thats cap. Even my meme decks have at least 5-6 pieces of removal.

[@MikeTheBFG]

@TargetSniper365 No, we are just having a misunderstanding of what too much is. I run 3 single removal pieces and 2 board wipes.

[@TargetSniper365]

@ I mean I have a mono white Phelia deck that is super fun lower power and I have about that. But the video is more or less discussing the extremes of people running 0-1 removal cards. That’s just insane. Most of my higher power decks run 15+

[@philipplyanguzov9090]

In a really fucked up way, I ended up with 2 pods that avoid battlecruiser magic. One skips the combat step every time and runs minimal board presence with the entire game being basically just interaction, stax effects and combos while the other group runs no interaction but is hyper agressive in combat with everyone effectively playing aggro.

[@lucien134]

Idk, i do play remorval, but often times i get this feeling like im doo dooing on the table because i would be miserable af if the roles were switch. So i try to stick to interaction that is also relevant to the deck. Like my Shorikai i have the board wipe with improvise, and counterspells that make me thopters or whatever.

[@styxsksu]

The problem with the power level system is that precons where placed at a 4 or 5

[@matheusestrela5302]

Im from a small city without lgs and i have 2 pods: the "cedh" pod that dont like stax decks and the battlecruisers pod haha, sometimes i find spelltable more interesting

[@xoulkaizer]

Im kinda a battle cruiser type player but thats party because i like to lean into my decks theme harder than i should and only play cards that fit my theme like i play a lot of blue decks but depending on the deck i dont play as many counterspell effects because it doesn't fit the theme while like my ezuri proliferate deck has like fuel for the cause and reject imperfection and the only counter spell effects that proliferate in my collection. And removal is based on -1/-1 counters and nothing else. Or another example with my belakor deck that only plays removal with the ping ability or an ability from a demon with no counterspells cause i dont own an offer you cant refuse and cant think of any other thematic spells for the way the demon deck works (except technically if you count deflecting swat cause i think a powerful demon should be able to swat away a spell). I know my collection seems funky but thats just cause i mainly buy packs or precons and dont usually buy singles.

[@xoulkaizer]

Also as for the interaction I play inverse interactions like chimil or something else that makes it so I can't be interacted with. however my tables are usually okay with how I play cause I am very upfront and honest with how my deck will play and if I make a deal I will never break it even if it means I lose. (Bad example cause the deck is actually not all that battle cruiser style) But I have an experiment kraj control deck that once the gears are spinning cannot be stopped at all and all attempts will just be stopped back with infinite stifle and counterspell effects or removal. But if I am about to be dealt with a turn before my combo is live I will sometimes just make the deal to give the player a win if they don't stop me. Not everyone will like that kind of thing but I generally don't play to win I play to hang out and do cool things with my decks.

[@Ouja]

I'm the only person in my pod that intentionally runs a battlecruiser deck. It's only one of my commander decks and it's protection heavy. It has minimal interaction but oftentimes requires a lot of interaction from others as they try to get around my pillow fort, which is a risk in itself because my deck is protection them from me as much as me from them. When the other players in my pod make a battlecruiser deck, it does result in whining as they realize what they've done and say "after this game I need to swap some cards for more interaction. This ain't working

[@dantheman20100]

I play in a pod with a guy who runs no interaction or board wipes and his reasoning is why run that stuff when your opponents will just interact for you. Which I can’t blame him since we don’t have a rule 0 type conversation before hand and just dive in with the craziest ways to interact and sabotage opponents.

[@NaokiKurogra]

See, I can understand the point of needing more removal to some extent, but you also shouldn't go too heavy to the other side. If more then about 10 in the 99 is removal and it's not a high power or CEDH pod, then you're going too far in the other direction. Most Commander players want to be able to focus on the core theme of their command and deck rather then deal with 1 in every 3 cards getting removed before they can even use it. It's why I say that in lower power tables, 1 or 2 board wipes per deck at the most, between 3-5 spot removals should be the most you go unless your deck is specifically something focused around lots of removal due to the commander's theme, and even then be aware that that would make you priority one to take out if that's the theme you're going with. Like, both the statements "you need more interaction" and "removal makes you the archenemy" can be true. That said, in the past when people did lean too hard into the removal aspect, I threw decks that punished them for board wipes and removal immediately following, such as a friend whose main deck for like a month was hyper removal to keep the board clear for him to combo off. Lost his shit when I played a deck designed to make an indestructible Ruric Thar and told him basically he had 10 more non-creature spells he could cast unless it was removed by exile.

[@EulogyfortheAngels]

So much of this comes down to players not understanding the how/why of game flow and likely having low emotional intelligence.

[@JermanatorD12]

When the format was slower and interaction was extremely limited (literally 8+ years ago), battle cruiser WAS Commander. I've been playing for so long that I can tell you that battle cruiser CAN be fun and your deck should run like a well-oiled machine after some setup, BUT your deck should not just focus on the set up. A battleship has anti-air guns, torpedoes, and a crew. The anti-air (your removal) is made to stop others who get ahead, and nowadays, there's options that hit every opponent. If you want a battle cruiser deck, do that! But make sure you're still interacting because interaction is a lot of fun when done right. Throw in politics to your interactions, try to gague the table and see if the threats to you are the same as the threats to them. Communication with interaction is key unless the threat is just that obvious. I know we all want to just do the thing, but I've had a lot more fun with games that have interaction them games without. I used to hate counterspells and removal but, as I've played, I've learned that removal is usually what starts conversations about the board and about what we perceive the other decks can do. It's what makes most of the games I play more interesting. If you don't know when your stuff is going to get removed, you'll play a little more aggressively or play more mind games to try and keep your stuff around a little longer. Seriously, play more interaction AND add communication to each piece of interaction. Thanks for listening to my Ted Talk. Lmao

[@terrencemedders1867]

But...but...my favorite is battlecruiser. Although, I have to say that I don't view battlecruiser as a "do nothing but build and then nuke stuff". I view it as a snowball kind of game, with the kind of pace where, hopefully, everyone gets an opportunity to start flashing some of their big guns before casualties begin to mount. Interaction definitely must be a factor.

[@williamchu4595]

All my deck are turbo turn 3,4 win without interaction, u got a problem ?

[@MarineS0n2]

Imo in most commander decks you only need to run 1-2 board wipes (obviously trending higher on creature wipes if you're in a heavily noncreature strategy) and 10-13 pieces of removal

[@DarkJusticeMetal]

If you're in a trusted playgroup, you should attempt to ask that you and your friends play with each other's decks. We have a playgroup of 4-5 people and I've encouraged that we play each other's decks occasionally and figure out problems in them. Sometimes all it takes is a little outside perspective.

[@doomedpizza-mg4ff]

Commander players sometimes want the speed of cedh but hate being considered cedh or having those staples

[@someguy1ification]

I love doing big, flashy stuff with developed boards. I also expect to have to fight through disruption to do it.

[@kaiseremotion854]

I've been wanting to build a deck that is ALL boardwipes, red, black, white constant boardwipe.

[@imaginarymatter]

Play combo and force them to change their ways.

[@emilianoflcn]

Issue is they expect that from combo. It hits harder when a non combo deck is synergistic enough that doing their thing at all will snowball very quickly into unbeatable situations. Like that one doctor that puts things into exile with suspend counters. You see the next set of threats before they come out and it's not like they lose their board by doing so

[@micheal5973]

Been cutting board wipes unless they mimic a cyclonic. Bounce all creatures without counters, destroy all non enchantment etc Just rather gg you win, shuffle up and play again vs wipe the board and now we all start from square 1, with very few cards in hand

[@brandoncreek5709]

I love "Battlecruiser" decks. I wanna slam huge creatures and beat face. A good amount of my "interaction" is board protection to make sure I can keep my threats around long enough to kill everyone. Obviously interaction and removal is still important, but not every deck can pack 20 kill/counter spells. Sometimes player removal will suffice. Sometimes you don't draw your outs and you get smacked by a xenagos or a dinosaur. The real problem is when expectations of a game clash and people don't properly communicate what they want out of a game. If you want a 2 hour game where everyone is constantly board wiping and removing threats as soon as they come down, then that's something you can communicate with your pod about. If you know you have limited interaction/protection, don't complain when someone removes your threatening things. TLDR: Battlecruiser isnt the problem. Lack of communication and unrealistic expectations of the game is.

[@Eugene_of_Theodoro]

I now realize alot of the time I play Battlecruiser, mainly do to me playing like an ape, and enjoying simple typal decks who's only goal is to kill through combat, usually with a bunch of tokens. But I have been trying to get better at putting removal in my decks mainly because one of the people always trys to play bs decks that are just like 80 different copies of persistent petitioners or do x infinitely for free

[@gage4330]

Every mid level game with everyone having alot of interaction is a 3 hour game that ends because we run out of time and no one can deal with life gain

[@stephenhousman6975]

The biggest issue I find is people don't know threat assessment and not realize that they themselves are the threat

[@hatimzeineddine8723]

I wish I could have an actual battle cruiser with like multiple vehicle cards joining together

[@owa1985]

In my experience, if someone's playing "battlecruiser" magic, it probably meant they didn't draw their spot removals or their board wipe(s). And I don't begrudge them for keeping them mulling into their "kewlest" combo and keeping it. And if someone has a 4-5 card combo, I'd rather they pull it off at least one time and I'd instead use my own removal/interaction to clear the way for that to happen. Unless it's the second or third time it has happened and it's due to degenerate levels of tutoring in which case, we'd start throwing hands at people who pass.

[@briandownie2955]

Local metas are contagious, be the changes you want to see. Keep countering their 8 mana dinos until they run protection.

[@bipolarbear8940]

I’m reading all of these comments and my first thoughts are who are y’all playing commander with? I don’t think I have ever had any of the issues people have talked about on here. I’m really sorry people have crappy experiences with the format, but I hope that doesn’t deter anyone away from it, since it is also really casual and fun.