Comment Responses: How is Magic the Gathering Like Jazz?

[@ListeningToMusicOnLo]

"Add two forests". Did anyone else have a violent physical reaction to this?

[@joshsatterwhite1571]

Yeah, that hurt a little. But I was more cringing at the mention of a Tronland, then four different colors of cards. Poor young Mike.

[@alistairmalachai5437]

I immediately scrolled down to see how many people called him on it, and was not disappointed

[@Stray7]

I did scream at the screen a bit, yes.

[@catlover0000]

I wouldn't call formats playstiles, they're more like rule-sets. It's a a difference on what you decide to play like and how wizards or some other format definer says you have to.

[@necrogenesis1981]

I'd say it's both. Yes, there are rules for the different formats, but you still design the decks in the way that you see fit within those parameters. That being said, the more cutthroat formats like standard, modern, vintage and legacy leave much less leeway to do that.

[@GaaradancepartyX]

That being said, one could say that playing different archetypes(control, combo. aggro) could be considered equivalent to styles of jazz.

[@colincruickshank7679]

the format is the instrument, since it imposes non-subjective limitations. the deck is the song and the line of play the recording, id say.

[@colincruickshank7679]

oh and the archetype is the stile, naturaly.

[@necrogenesis1981]

I'd call the line of play the melody more than the recording, since the progression isn't set in stone due to hand structure and draws, as well as the opponent's plays.

[@ethanworch5820]

Just found this video, but assembling contraptions does actually exist now as well as augmented cards.

[@KuroKitten]

I'm so glad you went back to previous method of uploading the comment response videos =)

[@GauntuM]

That deck looks like a 4/5th ed. starter pack and a few boosters thrown together, thems was the days.

[@OGNoNameNobody]

5:47 ..he said "two forests"...

[@Kizer5Red]

EDH, Commander! Pauper and Modern are fun too. Ultimately, I' would say, Elder Dragon Highlander (aka Commander) or CUBE are the two most expressive, and personal, formats to build and play.

[@RossLlewallyn]

I like comparing the spaces Magic and jazz take place in. They're "underground"/underdog spaces, less energetic than punk/LARPing, less mainstream than metal/poker, more into the craft than pop/Yu-Gi-Oh... I'm stretching the limits of the comparison and being reductive (no hate towards Yu-Go-Oh or pop music fans). Just drawing it out a little more.

[@EadricRicmund]

Ross Llewallyn keep in mind, Magic at it's height was mainstream. The first tabletop game to be streamed on ESPN wasn't poker, but Magic. But that only lasted for probably 3 years at the most.

[@triplehood]

I wouldn't say that metal is less mainstream than jazz. Both are umbrella terms that include so many different genres of music that it is impossible to say that one is more mainstream than the other.

[@zackcohn]

Just to let you know that magic has been the most popular it's ever been every year since 2008 at least. It's been growing at an amazing pace.

[@michelgabe1629]

was this really last week? to me it felt like at least 3 weeks,lul.

[@alexanderespinoza]

Michel Gäbe yeah same I must have been time walked

[@iamnotdeadpool6479]

Bee: Ya like jazz??

[@stephentoothman7852]

So that's definitely an Ice Age Icy Manipulator, no?

[@DylanFergusC]

Do you think you could ever set it up so the comments are above Mike's head? I like having the captions on, and the captions play directly on top of the comments in these kinds of videos. So many words on screen, it is a jumble..

[@vonOhzu]

Of course you can Fork a Fireball with Counter Spell on the stack, as long as the Counter Spell haven't resolved yet the Fireball is a legal target for Fork. Mind you copy effects like Fork always copy the X as 0, so your copy of Fireball is going to do 0 damage.

[@alistairmalachai5437]

X spells On the stack keep the value when they're cast, and their cost on the stack is equal to the full value of mana paid for the spell. I have very visceral experience with this as a commander player. mention void winnower to any commander player and watch their face flush with a combination of fear and disgust Forking a spell with an X in the cost requires you to use the same X value.-from the rulings

[@nsnick199]

Rule 706.2, for reference. Full text of the comprehensive rules: media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/MagicCompRules_20170605.txt

[@alistairmalachai5437]

706.10 is the rule you're looking for, spells on the stack are a hair different.

[@BewbsOP]

dang it, you got me again with that thumbnail. i dont know why, but my brain is weird. its the second time in a row that iv read that as magic the jizzering

[@femchad3317]

Boltaan'jistman I'd play that game.

[@doughboydevito4529]

You people need God :P

[@sankethbhaskar4236]

Some sort of Ramp Lock Deck? Also Tron in a 4 color deck.

[@Windavee]

I think the main difference is that Magic is a competitive experience while Jazz is more like a cooperative one

[@GameReject217]

a deck list? will the link be given here? I'm always looking for interesting cards lol

[@gigglysamentz2021]

This video made me get out of bed :') (in the morning I only watch KZbin while having breakfast...)

[@therisingtithes]

Just adding to Mike's reply around 3:38 on whether Magic relies on optimisation and jazz on expression: in much the same way that Mike argues that there is optimisation in jazz, I think it's fair to say that Magic, in its own way, is often exclusively about expression. As flimsy as the Johnny/Timmy/Spike taxonomy is, it does emphasise that each player of Magic cares about a certain *kind* of play, and that optimisation for them isn't merely building the best deck, but often playing the best version of the deck they want to play. Some blue players like decks that stifle opposing options moreso than even capitalising on one particular play because they value refusing people the ability to do things; some other blue players like decks that 'go off' on dramatic and consuming combos that illustrate their ability to keep track of large amounts of information and process an intense stack; and some blue players like creatures that can fly. That's just the tip of the iceberg of *one colour*. Expression isn't talked a lot about in Magic in part because players, especially when they already know each other well enough, simply take it as given that the things we value will dictate the kinds of decks that we would find engaging to play with, and that we want to make the best version *of that thing*, especially in Constructed formats. If optimisation were the only part of that play transaction that we enjoyed, then I'd argue that we should see far more people merely tinkering in the same colours or same archetypes almost every set, when this isn't the case. Sometimes our favourite colour philosophy, favourite evergreen keyword, favourite creature type, or favourite state of play *says something about us*. And we play in those modes as often as possible precisely because that is what we value, either as its own thing or as an abstract illustration of something else. I'd reckon it's the same as whether astute listeners of jazz can possibly pick up whether a certain musician has a kind of flourish that they always find a way to drop into any composition so long as it helps the work make the kind of statement they want it to. So. As with most, if not all, things: six o' one, half a dozen o' the other...

[@triplehood]

I want an episode on the idea that Metal is the modern day (or blue collar interpretation) of classical music :D

[@RojaAlego]

what does he say at 11:47?

[@AspelShuyin]

You can Fork a Fireball that's been Counterspelled. The Fork will copy the spell and while the original will still be Countered, the copy won't be.

[@agnellopicorelli4751]

Hi Mike, an episode about the philosophical basis of science? hypotesis, statistical roots, Popper... till the postmodernism concepts maybe...? I'm a great fan of yours. great podcast too!

[@9jettube]

Hooray for Music Theory!

[@StrongButAwkward]

I still say drafting pods in Limited and the deck construction that follows is waaaaaaay more like jazz than EDH/Commander. Also definitely agree that MtG is also like two lawyers arguing. Maybe MtG is really like lawyers playing jazz at each other?

[@marcelenderle4904]

noooooooo, please don't say that freejazz is about playing wherever or just what feels good........actually it can be quite the opposite. I wrote an analysis of a coltrane's piece and it's very interesting how deep is the concept within. Listen to Jupiter ( from the album Interstellar space) and after to Jupiter Variation....its very interesting!

[@AlisonKimberlin]

Sooooo where's this decklist

[@Todesnuss]

One thing that I missed in both videos is the fact that both communities can be very elitist and unfriendly towards newcomers.

[@petemagnuson7357]

9:25 yes, assuming nothing has resolved yet. (I think)

[@necrogenesis1981]

I missed this episode somehow, must be youtube glitching out again. I just watched it though and it was interesting. There's been a ton of Magic stuff going on lately, I can barely keep up lol.

[@MaraK_dialmformara]

I saw four colors in that deck... seems inefficient. How did it play?

[@havokmusicinc]

There's actually a huge amount of optimization in jazz today, for better or for worse. With the rise of the Lydian-Chromatic Theory of Tonal Gravity, the idea that certain scales were "tonally ideal" for certain chords came into vogue and effected big name players like John Coltrane. This in turn has massively effected the jazz education community, and as jazz has gotten less and less popular and more and more scholarly, there has been a rise in young "pattern player" musicians who can shred insane licks over any chord progression, no matter how bizzare. Of course "pattern players" are almost more mathematicians than musicians, similar to serial musicians like Berg and stochastic musicians like Xenakis. Their focus on optimization (and playing some totally killing licks that are just sooo dope) over musicality is very devisive in the jazz community.

[@jorgepeterbarton]

and that is arguably why jazz had a downfall...when it became a style prescribed to middle class white people to replicate old players through theory....instead of- improvisation, expression, roots from the blues, true avante-garde etc.

[@kinosmead]

To Punk Patriot's point about the rules as they relate to jazz (you should break them) and magic (they are hard-set and unbreakable) may I introduce you to the best rule in the game of magic? Namely Rule 101.1 (the first rule) paraphrased as "If a card explicitly tells you to break the rules, the rules are broken". In that way, nearly every rule has broken at least once, and you can choose which rules to break and which to keep. In Jazz, a musician might break one of the rules, or 2 of them. But a musician that breaks every rule of jazz is no longer playing jazz, they are playing something distinctly other. But if you break every rule of magic, the game goes on because you continue to still, at its core, be playing magic.

[@Jarory1]

I missed the optimization conversation, but I would beg to differ with the original comment and the perspective given. Both are about doing what feels right, but what feels right can be optimal or experimental. In magic, my play group strives for doing what feels right, fun, and different. We each strive to create a unique experience both for ourselves and our opponents. Often times our strategies are sub optimal but they're interesting interactions that create laughs and memories. Likewise when I've played jazz, in jazz band it was all about what was optimal, what was going to be the most impressive for the that moment, but in my own projects, there was more fun and interesting experimental interactions we played with. For instance, pulling the head out of the flute and using my finger to modulate the sound is something that would have never happened in jazz band but I played around with frequently in my own time.

[@Theorak]

Inbound for "proper use of sleeves"-warnings. Seems like all comments came to the same tone, Magic is just more adhering to the rules and predictability in play, something Jazz does not aim to do.

[@Wavesdog]

Like winning game one and loosing to hate game 2 and 3

[@IronFairy]

please!! I want the jazz jokes!!

[@rdreher7380]

Augmented cords! XD You should have made that joke!!!

[@turkeygrasslesnatch4742]

I've played Magic the Gathering since Judgment and would offer this idea: Magic the Gathering is more akin to a math equation than an expression of art.

[@meaigs]

I'd love to see you do collab with Adam Neely!

[@kinosmead]

If the fork was cast after the counterspell, the fork still happens. If the counterspell was cast after fork, you're kinda out of luck.

[@gigglysamentz2021]

The Magic episode made me play a game online just afterwards. It was great, I did over 100 damage in one go :') (It was necessary against a vampire with 63 HP...when I have 4 HP left)

[@Beamer1969]

The main difference is that magic has a governing body that dictates rules and jazz is a concept with no defined limits.

[@JagAgemo]

expected the deck list in the dobilydo... disappointed : (

[@TheGFeather]

Obscure music theory jokes are always welcome!

[@NarffetWerlz]

The comment on Magic being about 'optimization' is not completely accurate. For competitive play it is, but many play more thematically like decks centered around specific characters and only playing with cards simply because the art and flavor text has that character in it, especially if a card is directly attributed (i.e. Jace's Phantasm, Chandra's Fury). These types of decks eschew optimization in favor of role playing, nostalgia, aesthetics, any/all or none of reasons. There's also a semi-competitive format called Pauper where only common-rarity cards are playable. It does lean on optimization but under those guidelines.

[@gejyspa]

Absolute Law and Fireball in the same deck? Arrgh.. yer killing me here! AL totally negates the damage from the Fireball...

[@FrankieSmileShow]

Magic the Gathering is a little like Jazz, in its own peculiar way. Jazz is not dead, it just smells funny.

[@jorgepeterbarton]

its not dead, it just stopped improvising and tried to replicate its former styles with middle class people educated on how best to replicate old styles. it got stuck in nostalgia! Saying that there are some good new genres of jazz.

[@puskajussi37]

Werent these releases suposed to be staggered?

[@AaronGoodTastyJams]

GIVE ME A VIDEO OF BAD JAZZ / MUSIC THEORY JOKES!!!!!!

[@Thalarion]

Commander best format

[@TheGabrielbowater]

That's not a deck, that's a pile of cards

[@BigHugePotatoes]

TEMPEST RIT CLASSY

[@StrongButAwkward]

Masques Rit is best Rit. Masques Rit is life.

[@MobiusCoin]

Tron! YYEESSSSS!!!

[@leocelente]

lol totally forgot about all of that

[@jjc5475]

i always disliked those card games, their payment model is very similar to bad f2p games. my opinion.

[@Stray7]

You aren't wrong...and I say this as someone who's played for years. However, you also get a physical collectible out of the game, whereas with f2p, if the game ends, you get nothing to show for your investment (RIP SHC).

[@Chronuz]

audio is crap

[@quackelias9497]

YOU SHOULD'VE MADE JAZZ JOKES

[@PacManTheSoulEater]

Oh god you used to play tron when you where a kid!?! You disgust me!!!! jk I love tron!

[@dr.badguyreviews6785]

OMG

[@mrkookas]

FOURTH!

[@arrowboygaming5843]

1,000th view

[@joshfullmer]

FIRST!