COMMENTS ON THUNDERBIRD T-38 CRASH AT INDIAN SPRINGS JANUARY 18, 1982

[@hildajaccarino777]

I'm a former Thunderbird team member. I joined the team after this mishap at the beginning of the F16 era. It's hard to place the cause and responsibility of this tragic mishap on any individual or maintenance. The 4 pilots that lost their lives along with DL Smith and Nick Hauk will always be remembered for proudly serving their country.

[@wengertgroup8250]

I was an USAF aircrew staff sergeant in the 8th Tactical Deployment and Control Squadron stationed at Tinker AFB Oklahoma when this accident occurred. We flew three EC135 aircraft and one converted WC135. We were tasked with flying to Nellis AB and picking up a significant number of Thunderbird unit senior staff and family members of the deceased pilots and taking them to Andrew’s AFB so they could all attend the funerals at Arlington National Cemetery and then returning them all back to Nellis. It was the most somber day I was ever associated with while in the Air Force. We felt honored to be able to serve these brave survivors of the most tragic day in the history of the Thunderbirds. I will never forget that experience and to this day I can still vividly see and hear much of what occurred during that trip. It ended up being about a 14-15 hour duty day for the flight crew. 😢😢😢

[@tomwilson1006]

Thank you 😞

[@Robert-wq2bd]

Thanks.

[@radarice2]

Just a little background on one of the deceased pilots - Captain Joseph ‘Pete’ Peterson from Tuskegee, AL. He graduated from Auburn U. through their AFROTC program. In 1976, I was the Wing Chief of B Wing at Squadron Officer School. Pete was in my wing and I found him to be one of the finest and smartest officers that I ever encountered in my entire career. Besides being designated a DG, he was universally loved and respected by all with whom he associated. In my estimation, he was destined to ascend to the level of a USAF flag officer. It was a sad day when we lost Captain Peterson.

[@ronrogers]

Thanks for your input. I thought about talking about the pilots but other than the published information, I had really noting of substance to add. But, thanks to individuals like you, people post personal insights that add nicely to the story.

[@bb4udig]

I was a member of the Canadian Air Force Aerobatic Team (Snowbirds) at the time of this accident. We would often cross paths with both the Blue Angles and Thunderbirds during the summer air show season and developed very cordial relationships between us. Following this horrible accident in 1982 we flew down to Nellis AFB to attend the funeral and pay our respects. A very sad occasion. The 4-Plane diamond crash occurred a few months after the previous Thunderbird lead lost his life in Cleveland, and only a month before the Blue Angles lost a solo pilot at El Centro. I was in my second year on the Snowbirds and all these accidents reinforced in my mind just how unforgiving air show flying was, near the ground with a critical shortage of available time to successfully eject from an aircraft. More so given that the ejection seat that I was strapped into was not a zero/zero seat. I can remember thinking about this when taxiing out for take off and I would often practice reaching for the ejection handles as quickly as I could. Your summary of the loop mechanics was spot on. The most critical part of a low altitude loop was just over the top. The airplane would be starting to accelerate; so it was critical that the pilot pull back and increase nose pitch rotation at the slower speed in order to get ahead of the impending rapid acceleration. It was important to do this sooner rather than later, before any significant acceleration could develop. Delaying the pitch rotation at the top or not pitching enough at the lower speed would result in a very rapid acceleration vertically towards the ground; requiring an exponential increase in G to overcome, and often resulting in what we would refer to a square turn out the bottom. Thank you for this video. RIP to those that perished and deepest sympathies to their loved ones.

[@ronrogers]

Thank you for your great comments!

[@kevinmadore1794]

The seat in the T-38A wasn't much more sophisticated than the one in your Tutor and it wasn't zero-zero either. The death of Lt. Col. Smith (TB1) in the summer of '81 in Cleveland was largely attributable to the limitations of the seat. His crew chief went out first, got one pop on the chute and survived. Col. Smith got out, but hit the ground before the chute could deploy. Many years later, the Training Command modified their T-38s to a new standard (T-38C), which does have an MB, zero-zero seat. Sadly, many T-38s outside the Training Command were not modified and there are numerous USAF units (509th BW, 9th SRW, etc.) still flying A-models with the old seat. I makes me sick to think that we continue to ask our aviators to fly a very demanding airplane like the 38, with seats that won't save their lives in the regime of flight where accidents are most likely, namely takeoffs and landings. I felt that same sickness in my stomach when I watched the tapes of the Snowbird accident that killed Capt. Jenn Casey and nearly killed her pilot. This should not be happening in the 21st century. We have the technology to protect these people. Love the Snowbirds, BTW. Seen them many times over the years and they are awesome.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

​@@kevinmadore1794you know for certain that right now a lot of these planes are flying with out the updated seat?

[@kevinmadore1794]

@@chickenfishhybrid44 Yes, that is correct. The Training Command modified all of their T-38s to the T-38C standard, which has a Martin-Baker US16T ejection seat with zero-altitude, zero-speed capability. You can basically eject while parked on the ramp. That said, there were quite a number of T-38s in the inventory that were never modified and are still the T-38A models. These include jets flown by some units with "Red Air" (adversary) missions as well as companion trainers used by the units that fly the U-2 and B-2 platforms. These jets still have steam-gauge cockpits and the old Northrup seat, which has a lot of limitations, including forcing the pilot to walk out to the airplane with a big, heavy chute on his/her back. On the Martin-Baker seat, the chute is part of the ejection seat and the pilot simply wears a harness walking out to the jet, like on most modern fighters. While no seat will save you in all circumstances, the US16T is a MUCH better seat. From my perspective as a taxpayer, I think it is unconscionable that we ask our aviators to fly an airplane that is as challenging as the T-38, with a seat that will not save their lives in many scenarios involving takeoffs and landings.....which is where most of the fatal accidents occur.

[@daviddunsmore103]

​@kevinmadore1794 Thanks for your very thoughtful and well-informed comments. I learned a lot from what you had to say, and I agree 💯 percent about the need to equip aircrew with the best seats!! 👍

[@cturdo]

I met the team the summer before at the Scott AFB Airshow. They signed the program cover and it remains a prized possession to this day.

[@ronrogers]

I still have all of mine!

[@joevignolor4u949]

When I was in the Air Guard we had an A-10 experience a complete lock up of the control stick. This happened right after engine start and before the airplane started to taxi. A maintenance mechanic went up the ladder and reached into the cockpit and tried to move the control stick. He confirmed that it was locked. After shutdown the stick started moving again. There were a number of attempts made to duplicate the problem but in never happened again. The entire flight control system was inspected but no apparent cause was found. The pilots refused to fly the plane again for obvious reasons. It never flew again. It was stripped of all useable parts not associated with the flight control system and then it ended up as a static display.

[@robertheinkel6225]

Very odd problem. Without the crew chiefs verification, it would be chalked up to pilot error.

[@daviddunsmore103]

That's quite something!! 😨 Thanks for sharing this episode with us.

[@bluskytoo]

i was a C-130 crewmember when this happened and my aircraft commander had been an experienced T-38 instructor. He had a theory as to why lead did not call break or knock-it-off. He said he had similar thing happen at altitude. The mic switch for the radio is on the throttle. If your stick is jammed and you are going to crash , both hands are on the stick pulling with all your might and you cant transmit, makes perfect sense.

[@dahawk8574]

...except that there are other ways to signal the formation aside from transmitting over the radio. As Ron clearly mentions in his video, chopping the throttles to idle prior to switching both hands to the stick would have been sufficient to save the rest of the formation. And, alternatively, a Full AB Max Thrust recovery could have been attempted, which would have accomplished the same thing. Alternatively yet again, if Lead wished to attempt recovery using a throttle setting which was intermediate, he still could have signaled the formation using Rudder Waggle, or Aileron Pulses. Something... anything, to let everyone know that you're in a crisis situation. Lowry did none of these things.

[@jefreagan]

@@dahawk8574He could do all that signaling in less than a second? These guys are even more squared away than I thought!

[@dahawk8574]

​@@jefreagan The time between becoming aware of the critical situation to the time of impact was FAR MORE than one second. I'm going to guess you've never flown a loop before. Let alone flown a loop in a T-38.

[@dahawk8574]

You might also want to try to put yourself into Wilbur Creech's shoes... WHY he destroyed the evidence. Exactly what he decided needed to be hid.

[@jefreagan]

@ No, not at all. I was going by what Ron was saying between step D and E, from what I understood as to when Lead noticed a fouled up actuator. I may have misheard or misunderstood. I couldn’t imagine how fast things came undone.

[@sandywallace6028]

Captain Rogers I hope you are well. By way of introduction I am a long term aviation geek who has recently retired and I spend some of my time watching aviation related you tube videos. I have recently discovered your content and I have to say that I love your down to earth style which, for me, makes everything so much more accessible and understandable. Thank you and I look forward to further content. Regards, AW

[@jeffanderson6136]

Thanks for laying this incident out for us. I was working departures the day they crashed. A real hard day. Years later I ran into an attorney for one of the families. Interesting information not everyone knows but suspected.

[@PETE-v4d]

I'll have to agree with you about Major Lowery getting the blame by some people, I've read the safety board mishap report and the article in Aviation Week & Space Technology and felt the explanation was very detailed and plausible. I have a working knowledge of the stab system in the T-38 due to my experience as a crew chief on the Talon so so feel qualified to say that.

[@michaelwilkins1341]

I was stationed there at Nellis. I worked at the storage fuels yard right by the Thunderbird hanger. I watched them take off for the last time .

[@ed-straker]

I grew up in Valdosta GA, home of Moody AFB. We went and saw the Thunderbirds every year. They were flying T-38s at the time.

[@kenlanier2131]

Thanks for the video Captain. This hits home for me. I was a Parachute Surival Equipment Specialist at Nellis 88-92 not long after Indian Springs. Although few often talked about the crash it was on proples mind. I really enjoyed working with the T-Birds, thank God during my time they didnt have to use the ACESII. During an aircraft incident, it was always stressful waiting to get more information. Did the pilot get out safely?!! Proud to say 3 Airmen came back to parachute shop and brought some beers with good stories. Hard to think its been over 30 years ago now.

[@9Apilot]

Pete Peterson (#3)was a personal friend of the family. I was a little kid at the time but I remember seeing him the season prior at Hill AFB. It was my 1st experience with knowing someone who later died. I was devastated.

[@Robert-wq2bd]

This is a pretty good synopsis overall, Roger. When DL punched out at Cleveland, Burke Lakefront, the team was taking off in elements of two, two, and three due to the the short (6000') wet runway. They planned to meet up at thenext gas stop and reform for arrival maneuvers at their next show site. DL liked to connect his lap belt off center and the team was using a new lap belt system. A moment after he punched ( after he called his crew chief to eject), the lap belt opened and the "butt snapper" launched him out of the seat right on schedule.However, the new lap belt contacted the ejection handle and the locking mechanism turned, which popped the zero delay lanyard out of the socket in the belt buckle, eliminating his low altitude chute deployment.

[@joe92]

Had he worn his lap belt centered, would this have occurred?

[@Robert-wq2bd]

@@joe92 That is hard to know for certain, but where it was connected would ultimately determine to where the buckle would hinge to when it was automatically released.

[@PETE-v4d]

Thank you for the additional details of this incident.

[@Sreybk]

I was a little kid when this happened, but I remember hearing about it in the news. My dad speculated (sort of correctly) that something must have gone wrong with the lead aircraft and everyone probably followed him into the ground because everyone was flying wing. As you stated, this is infamously known as the "Diamond Crash," when in fact they were performing the Line Abreast Loop. I have heard the Blue Angels saying the Line Abreast Loop is probably the hardest maneuver they do.

[@JMdfcv]

AT-38B at CBM suffered a stab actuator/connector malfunction while the pilot was pulling 4g during an FCF (1995ish?). Unable to recover the aircraft from its 4g spiraling descent, he made a radio call that he was stepping over the side along with his range/bearing from the CBM TACAN. Safely on the ground, makes a phone call from a house. Sheriff picks him up but chases down a speeder prior to driving the pilot to the base hospital. The only fatality was a 4-legged critter in the impact crater.

[@user-xz9hu4rd2v]

I was an IP with the 50th the day this happened, the mishap pilot was the chief of the FCF shop.

[@JMdfcv]

@@user-xz9hu4rd2v Ha, small world. 49FTS.

[@jefreagan]

Good grief…

[@KRW628]

I remember that day. I'd always thought that they were in a diamond loop, and a couldn't understand why nobody saw what was happening. Thanks for the explanation.

[@dallasc9877]

My dad was transferred to ISAAF, Shortly after the accident. I finished growing up there and graduated. I loved watching the Thunderbirds. I got to see the tape of the crash, uncut, a little later in the 80s, very sad.

[@pi-sx3mb]

This is such a bizarre failure. I entered UPT in the fall of '82 and as a T-38 student I don't recall any mention of this malfunction being an issue of concern nor any accidents in the following years that were attributed to it.

[@tcrane8300]

I was in UPT in 1989, and it was talked about often and used in the morning stand-ups.

[@plrpilot]

Such a heartbreaking tragedy. I just remember the immense sadness when I learned about the crash.

[@ShadesOClarity]

I thought I saw this video. Great analysis. I remember hearing about this even though I was a little kid. I think my dad told me about it and theorized correctly that Boss must have had a malfunction and everyone was flying wing and went into the ground. I loved their T-38s.

[@johnh2410]

The initial report of the board was a finding of pilot error. The lead aircraft had topped out on the loop at an altitude below the minimum required to insure a safe recovery. Failure to recognize the altitude and continuation of the maneuver to the pull through meant that after reaching about 60 degrees nose low inverted, the formation was in a position from which recovery was no longer possible. There was evidence reported that the control stick and linkages were deformed probably due to pilot effort to pull through at whatever G was available. When the report was submitted, General Creech (Tactical Air Command boss) returned it and reconvened the board with the statement that "Thunderbirds do not commit pilot errors." Command guidance was to come up with another cause. That was when the flight control was invented as the culprit

[@jcheck6]

I heard the same John.

[@PETE-v4d]

There was more to that comment than you posted here, some of which I did not agree with. The AW&ST article had photographs of some of the components of the stab system that did indicate an anomaly.

[@trentwhitney8346]

Yes! This comment is exactly what I remember from my father at the time, but I heard it as "Thunderbirds do not make mistakes." Also, there was rumor that the government actually gave Northrup the money to pay the lawsuits. On top of that, the T-38 has been used ever since for training.

[@Robert-wq2bd]

This is not correct. Lowry was about 9 kts slow in entering the loop. It topped at the correct altitude. The load relief cylinders were collected from each debris filed. Lowry's relief cylinder rod was fully extended, evidence that his stab was in disagreement with his stick position. The other three relief cylinders were not extended when they failed.

[@PETE-v4d]

@@Robert-wq2bd I'm glad to see that someone else realizes that the condition of the load relief cylinder in the leads ship was an indication of some kind of malfunction in the stab system.

[@hammer3921]

After this crash there was a movement in Congress to cancel the Air Force and Navy air demonstration teams due to cost of aircraft and loss of pilots. I was at Nellis at the time working in the 474th TFW Plans office. The 474th was operational in F-16’s at this time. My office was tasked to write the proposal to Congress to convert the Thunderbirds to F-16’s that could be made combat ready in 72 hours and the pilots trained to drop bombs. Ultimately it was this plan that led Congress to approve the conversion to F-16’s and allow the Thunderbirds to live on. I like to think that in some small way I helped save the Thunderbirds.

[@tomwilson1006]

Glad the T-Birds live on to this day….

[@Robert-wq2bd]

There was NEVER a move in Congress to cancel the team due to this accident. In fact there was a joint resolustion, passed within days honoring the team and resolving to keep it going. I have a copy of that resolution. Also, President Reagan through SECAF Vern Orr told the Thunderbirds within days of the memorial service that the team must continue.

[@hammer3921]

@@Robert-wq2bd Perhaps I should have used the word “talk”. Whatever you want to call it, there were some members of Congress who were very vocal about about ending the teams.

[@Robert-wq2bd]

@@hammer3921 No doubt.

[@jefreagan]

There was talk of it in ‘72 when the “Angels” were moving to Phantoms. A lot is said at times by our illustrious law givers to save money on ridiculous schemes. The T-Birds were included in this conversation. (An alumni Angel was speaking about it in a reunion years later.) The head recruitment officer talked them down with lower projected pilot trainees availability had they done that. Saved by a recruiter.

[@mcmdrpiffle447]

Wow ! I was with the 333 TFS at Davis Monthan listening live as this went down. Sad. I was going to add some thoughts but they've already been added by folks far more senior than myself God Bless ThunderBird Flight. God Bless. M

[@jcheck6]

Interesting side note was that the Thunderbirds switched to F-16s after the crash and my understanding the new team was personally selected/approved by the AF Chief of Staff. One of those pilots later became UAL's VP of Flt Ops after serving time at ALPA in DC.

[@kevinmadore1794]

The USAF selected Maj. Jim Latham, a former Thunderbird wingman, to lead the new team. He was a Vietnam vet, former POW, and retired from the AF as a B/G. Over the entire history of the team, only a few pilots have ever served as wingmen, then come back later in their careers to become the boss.

[@johnosbourn4312]

Yes, they did change to the F-16, but, after they called off the entire '82 Season. When the team was reformed a year later, they received the first of several different Blocks of the F-16; the Block-15, and currently, in their 70th Anniversary Year, they're flying F-16/D Block-52's, and celebrating forty years of the team flying the F-16.

[@larrycooper9487]

Years later at WPAFB, I received a briefing on this accident. Was told the stabs on all of these T-38’s were purposely adjusted outside maintenance manual specifications in order to gain improved inverted performance. This resulted in limited stab positive G or pull performance. The briefer stated yes, the maneuver started outside required entry parameters, resulting in a lower loop. He also briefed that had the stabs not been adjusted outside mx manual limitations, lead could have given higher g input earlier and avoided the accident. This is what I was briefed and all I know about this subject. I have no idea if I was told the truth.

[@Robert-wq2bd]

The stabs were NOT adjusted whatsoever. The rudder limiters were removed, making the Thunderbird T-38s much more maneuverable than normal T-38s. (Those limiters were initially installed to make the typical T-38 more spin resistant as a trainer). F-5 trim motors were installed to give the pilots more trim authority thus reducing PIOs at high speeds, and the engines had better oil accumulators giving the Thunderbirds twice the inverted time of a normal T-38. But nothing was modified out of any T.O. tolerances. That is nonsense.

[@jamiedoughty6703]

Man, what a bummer. This was the day I was born. 🙏🏻

[@stefaan715]

This reminds me of the British F4 demo crew that ariving at the airshowbase, immediatly started a practice display but forgot to change the altimeter setting andere looped straight in the grond.

[@Robert-wq2bd]

This accident had nothing to do with altimeters. You didn't need the altimeter to correctly perform this maneuver whatsoever. The maneuver was to be entered at 400 knots with a pull to an initial 4 Gs before the airspeed bled off. The top was always about 6000 feet above the ground and from there the T-38 in the thick air of low altitude aerobatics, had a huge margin for error in which to recover. In fact, if one wanted to, they could make it into a big 9. Years later an TB F-16 accident did, indeed, crash due to altimeter error, but that was because his opening climb was less than vertical before he reversed back inverted in the opposite direction. Because he did not pull to the vertical, he needed the altimeter to know when to reverse. That was not the case with the diamond accident.

[@michaelgill7248]

Great analysis, thank you!

[@ronrogers]

Glad you liked it!

[@erictaylor5462]

The T-38 was a trainer developed in the 1950's. They produced a fighter version for export to countries that wanted a budget fighter, but this plane was not a fighter.

[@ronrogers]

In the movie Airport 77, a T-37 pulls up along side the 747. They called it a fighter! All of us T-37 IPs in the audience (Vance AFB) just broke out laughing. People in the audience did not seem to understand the humor!

[@richardbriscoe8563]

That’s correct. The T-Bird tradition dating back to the USAFE Sky Dancers is to fly front line fighter aircraft which can be made combat mission ready in hours, not days. The T-38 is the sole exception although a T-33 was used as the VIP/Press ride aircraft during the F-84 era as there were no two seat F-84s.

[@terrylee5638]

Your videos are awesome! Thank you!

[@ronrogers]

Glad you like them!

[@Robert-wq2bd]

I agree. They are very well thought out.

[@trentwhitney8346]

Our family was very close to Mark and his wife Carol. He flew with my father many times in the F-4, and they were best friends for many years. I heard lots of stuff behind the scenes after this crash. I think the explanation is much more simple, and that Major Lowry simply miscalculated and flew them all into the ground. I know that Mark complained to my father many times that they were bottoming out way too low and under 100 feet AGL, and that he was specifically concerned about this during the line abreast loop because of the enhanced difficulty to use your peripheral vision. Mark was new to the team, and when he brought this concern up during flight briefs it was simply ignored. I know that the videos tape was later intentionally destroyed as many tried to get access to see for themselves what happened. Our close circle always felt that they were looking for a reason other than simple pilot error. In the end, it doesn't matter. Mark's no longer with us and neither are the others. This was a devastating blow to our family! I have very fond memories of Mark and Carol! I played Atari 2600 for the very first time and often with Mark. Strange- it's one of my most fun memories of him playing the game Combat - LOL! He was awesome! As far as the actuator failure; it's my understanding that it was used as a theory and that there was no evidence that actually proved that's what happened.

[@WilliamM-e6n]

IMHO it borders on criminal the tapes were destroyed. Who ever allowed this had no right.

[@dus10r]

Did you know Matt Lowry, Mark’s son? Strange story but here it goes. My dad worked at Area 51 when I was growing up. So when we first moved to Nevada we lived in Indian Springs. I went to the elementary school and we were very used to the Thunderbirds practicing when they weren’t on tour. On that day we just happened to be walking to music class and they were practicing as usual, I watched them pull into a loop and at the end of the loop I lost sight and just heard, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then lots of smoke. Years later, after graduating from Indian Springs High, I left for college. Moved to Reno to attend UNR. First week I meet some other kids from the Vegas area, one of which was Matt Lowry. I never put two and two together till 2 years later. Becoming pretty close to Matt he and I were discussing growing up and he mentioned that his dad was a pilot. When I asked what he flew he told me that he was a Thunderbird pilot and that he died in “THE” crash. At that point it clicked…my head spun for a second. I then told him that I watched the accident happen. Poor guy, the look on his face. Crazy coincidence.

[@tomwilson1006]

Ugh, that’s so sad. Such a tragic loss, and such a small world.

[@PETE-v4d]

General Creech erased the tapes presumably to save the families the agony of the tapes being shown again and again if they ever became public.@@WilliamM-e6n

[@trentwhitney8346]

@@dus10r sorry, I did not know the Lowry family at all. I can't imagine growing up without my dad. So sad!

[@petrairene]

Horribly formation looping crash story from Germany: In 1962 a formation of four newly acquired F104 Starfighters performed a formation looping and the leader miscalculated and flew all four planes into the ground. After that the German Air Force banned all military show formation flying. Some years later at an airshow in Ramstein an Italian Air Force formation pilot crashed into the audience. Let's just say, as cool and spectacular military show formations are, in Germany the activity is not exactly popular.

[@albertsmith9315]

I was active duty Air Force and just PCS'ed to Alaska when this crash came up on the radio in my new office. I saw this very team at an airshow in Florida and recognized the aircrews when the portraits were posted in the paper. Sad.

[@1roanstephen]

I am wondering what the dive recovery charts would have shown as far as recover-ability for the wing men. I also have to question the safe ejection altitude for the T-38 ejection system. I flew the F-4 and I would say a Phantom would be hard pressed to make the square corner after passing E and ejection would be on the ragged edge.

[@Crash-yp7ll]

Two things: 1) Even mechanical flight controls have redundancies, therefore, single-point failure of a jam more likely than actuator failure - 2) pulling throttles back would seem advisible in order to increase pull-up rate.

[@sonnyburnett8725]

The whole accident investigation sounds suspect, pulling power at 400 feet and your entire flight remains in formation. At 281 feet your still 26 degrees nose down, yet you impact the ground TAIL first? If he did, then he must of still had full elevator or stab control. It doesn’t seem to add up.

[@rb11100]

I spent more than a decade as a quality control inspector on T-38s. We were briefed that the cause of the crash was an artificial feel mechanism failure in the stab system. In QC we got what the AF called Blue 4 News (accident/incident reports). Nothing in that indicated anything different, other than some of the wording. That made a lot of sense, and I never really questioned it. About 25 years later, I was again a QC inspector on T-38s, but this time as a civilian. We had a new guy come into our shop from another station (also as a civilian). I got to know him a little bit, and was surprised that he had been on the maintenance crew for the T-Birds from 1981 until 1983. So I asked him what happened. I was completely floored when he said what they were briefed. As someone has already intimated in these replies here, he said that the lead pilot failed to reset his altimeter. But they were told to say it was a stab issue. I worked with this guy for about a year, and never once did he ever give me any ideas that he was a BSer. He was always very serious about his job, and how he did it. One of the new pilots when they went to the F-16s, was a pilot I knew well. I won't use his name, but he was on that team of the first F-16 Thunderbirds. I ran into him at an air show that they were performing at. I had no idea he was now a T-Bird pilot. Now this was years before I met the QC inspector that I mentioned above. I asked him what happened, and he just said the stab issue, and wouldn't say anything else. This is a guy that I had gotten to know because we had identical Corvettes. Back then, officers & enlisted didn't "fraternize" much, and he was surprised that an enlisted had a Corvette. Once I explained that if I didn't live in there dorms, and ate all my meals at the chow hall, I wouldn't have it. We were friends enough that he was at my weeding. Remember officers didn't frat with enlisted. I also asked that civilian QC inspector years later, if he remembered any of the new F-16 pilots. He said that he couldn't remember all of them, but rattled off 4-5 names. One of them was my friend, and I hadn't mentioned his name. I think that was why he divulged the altimeter info. My mom worked for nearly 40 years at GE Evandale, OH. The T-38s are still powered by GE (J-85) engines. Evandale is almost completely consumed with building engines for commercial aircraft, but there was an office there that dealt only with military jet engines. My mom had only 2 people in her chain of command there. Her immediate supervisor, and the entire GE complex plant manager in Evandale. Any military jet engines involved in accidents, were sent there to see if it was engine related or not. If we had a crash/incident at our base, usually within 6-8 weeks she'd tell me if it was because of their engines. She would never come out and say "no, not the engine's fault", she'd say something like maybe we needed to look elsewhere. Not once did any official crash summary ever contradict what she told me. They got all 8 of the Indian Springs crash engines. I was involved with another investigation involving a T-38. It was an FCF flight, flown by Capt Bob Pheifer. During that flight, he lost the left stab during a hard G maneuver. The chase ship said that he only lost about half of the stab. So the Depot team (flight ops was in contact via phone, looking for input for what the pilot needed to do). They said "he can land it. Capt P. was playing around trying things, and said ok, he'd give it a try, but would need a 25 mile straight in approach. We flew a lot of aircraft everyday, and clearing out that much airspace did cause a lot of diverts. But hey, we needed to get him back safely, and they didn't want to endanger anyone else, as the jet was still barely flyable. One of the things that he had to do, was try moving the flaps to see if that effected stability. Yeah it did, in a massive way. So that meant he'd have to do a straight in approach. Thus the request for a 25 mile straight in final. That's about 185 kts landing speed in a T-38. No problem, they practice that all the time, but not without a left stab. When he got to the runway at that speed, the jet bounced a little. He then did pilot's things, and tried to make inputs to correct it. The jet started to roll, and I was sure that I was going to watch him die that day. I have no idea what he did (he didn't either he said), but it rolled back wings level, and just chopped the throttles. He stopped about a 100' short of the end of the runway. He so wanted out of that jet that he didn't wait for the fire dept to provide a ladder, he just jumped. When he walked back to the left stab area, he fell to his knees. There was nothing there but the torque tube and some honeycomb fibers. When the SOF called the depot team back and told them that the entire stab was missing, they said he should have punched out. So sometimes the experts don't always know, or give the right info. I'll never know exactly what happened at Indian Springs, but after working for the US government for as many years as I did, I've come to not being surprised when they tell me "what really happened" and it wasn't And don't get me started on vaccines, after what happened in 1976 to us in the military. Will the gov't ever admit to how many GIs died from that fiasco? Of course not. The gov't is the keeper of all secrets, but amazingly I've had my identity stolen 4 times. All because of someone working in the gov't screwing up.

[@Robert-wq2bd]

You have conflated two different accidents. Ron Rogers and your original understanding are largely correct. The altimeter had nothing to do with the T-38 crash. However, it was used in an opening F-16 solo maneuver later on. The pilot there, did indeed have the wrong altimeter.

[@gotmilk91]

I remember seeing this crash on TV as a little kid; the flight of four white T-38s in tight formation all flying steady near bottom of loop right into ground at about 25°-35° angle before what should've been leveling back into horizontal flight, from what I can remember... all on a sunny and clear desert day setting... the exploding wreckage of all 4 planes happening almost simultaneously, and "bouncing back up" hurtling together in a huge-shallow fiery arc across the desert backdrop... not so much a "fireball" as probably more-like wildly-expanding conflagration that crashed and exploded again at the end of that fiery-arc across the desert. I thought about this incident in recent years and searched online for this footage; to my surprise some USAF commanding officer somewhere along the chain ordered the complete destruction of this footage, although I'd imagine some TV news network would probably have it on video tape in the archives somewhere.

[@erwinschmidt7265]

T-38 only designed as afterthought to keep F4 Phantom Pilots alive long enough for transition! They were developed at same time, but prospective F4 Pilots required to do required time in T-38 before knockin' hell out of enemy!! Ike Dbl Green Lighted both in '54, but DOD jerked Phantom's 4-high rate .50's for missiles only, costing many Pilots' lives. Ike no longer Prez when developed, but that didn't mean he wasn't PO'd right straight off!! Remember Ike's Farewell Speech w/Beware Military Industrial Complex? Above was what he was talkin' about, i.e. Raytheon makes shtload of $'s, & we lost our Pilots & planes!

[@Van_The_Man]

After all this time it is still open to speculation one way or another. Unfortunate none the less.

[@erictaylor5462]

I think the lead pilot had time to realize he had a problem, maybe he had time to attempt to let everyone else know, but he did not have time to say anything. I don't think the other pilots realized they had a problem before they found themselves before the Pearly Gates. They'd have been like, "What the hell happened?" and the leader said, "I think something on my plane broke, I could not pull up faster than the trim setting was pulling us up."

[@tomwilson1006]

This is now one of my favorite aviation channels. Mr. Rogers sir, I think the AF needs to give you your own clean Raptor or Viper, and maybe even a T-38C (your choice of the 3) so you can do cross countries teaching the younger generations of AF aviators. Per diem along with a very generous compensation package would never be enough for your knowledge. Haha just kidding 😂 we know you’d prefer to enjoy retirement and we don’t blame you! But gotta admit…..your very own clean F-22, F-16, or T-38C and no desk riding would be fun, unlimited fuel and make your own hours lol.

[@ronrogers]

Here I am, waiting by the phone for my new Raptor.

[@tomwilson1006]

@@ronrogersMover & Gonky just had their T-38 fini flights featured on “Unconventional” here on KZbin by Newsweek. As a former Talon driver Ron, I’m sure you can appreciate a couple of fighter pilots finishing their military flying careers in a plane that you loved to fly as well. It’s actually kind of sad, bcuz Mover & Gonky still want to fly tactical jets, but you know when the Air Force tries to put out to pasture a couple of O-4’s, or even younger officers when they still have usefulness but try to make them ride a desk. There’s no reason there should be a pilot shortage when you have 2 pilots that still have gas in the tank.

[@erictaylor5462]

When this accident happened I was less than a month past my 12th birthday. Even though I was still a little kid, I thought the Airforce shafted the pilot. Not to make you feel old, well okay, yea, it's totally about making you feel old. I'm 53 now.

[@CAPEjkg]

I remember as a kid they were supposed to be at Dobbins AFB in marietta that weekend , the crash happened earlier in the week.

[@viperdriver82]

I was saying at least the slot pilot would have seen something was off …but as you said it wasn’t a diamond Loop it was line abreast so it would have been hard to tell …sheesh

[@slartybarfastb3648]

This is why these activities are high risk. The risk is managed as well as possible, but a malfunction or momentary misjudgement at the worst moment may easily trap even the best.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

so basically, spatial navigation is up to one pilot, the rest are 100% preoccupied at not crashing into one another

[@ronrogers]

essentially

[@scootertooter6874]

Crazy Ron...I remember hearing about this 1982 crash when it happened (I was in AFROTC at the time).

[@sblack48]

Hard to believe they ever tried the t38 for that roll. It’s a great airplane for its purpose. It is a terrible choice for a display team.

[@ronrogers]

They chose it because of the fuel crisis going on. One of the T Birds at the Vance bar was touting fuel savings. One of our pilots said that they should fly the T-37 then. Did not go over well!

[@bobcfi1306]

Thanks

[@richardbriscoe8563]

The “Diamond crash” I am familiar with involved FOD interfering with elevator control. Lead was not flying with a hot Mike, which we were briefed was SOP. As a result, when lead took his hand off the throttle to use both hands on the stick the rest of the flight was condemned to the outcome of lead. It’s hard not to fault lead for this.

[@Peter-u6d]

All the aircraft I worked on hot mike was only between the front and rear cockpit it had nothing to do with transmitting to other aircraft.

[@joe92]

By the time Lead knew he was in trouble, recovery was impossible for any of the aircraft.

[@troygleeson738]

I had read years ago about the Push to talk switch location on the throttle quadrant being a factor in this incident. The theory was that he had an elevator jam and pulled his throttle hand back to the stick to apply more back pressure and as a result couldn't call the break. I read this years ago and it really stuck in my mind. Can anyone here confirm or deny this who actually knows?

[@rbrtjbarber]

To this day, even with the F-16s, the Thunderbirds don't perform the full line-abreast loop, although the Blue Angels have started performing it again.

[@gzk6nk]

So you;re saying the actuator failed late in the loop but because of the increasing speed (they were pointing downhill) the nose continued to rise as the speed increased further and the elevator generated more downforce even though it was 'stuck' and no longer following stick pitch inputs from the pilot - masking the problem. By the time he realised he had a pitch control problem, it was too late and he went in. The other 4 of course would have no idea that lead had a problem so they stayed in formation and perhaps only became a aware of the proximity of the ground far too late to do anything about it. The report saying he pulled the power back to idle is odd. If he'd done that the other 4 would have left him behind as you say at which point they would probably have broken formation in time to avoid the rapidly approaching ground. Vince

[@DanielGomez-gw4kt]

The crash wasn't at Indian springs, it was at the Nevada Desert near Nellie Air Force Base. Four pilots crashed into the desert floor while they were practicing

[@joe92]

It was at Indian Springs

[@gregorygaunt9353]

I was in 9th grade...I remember it.

[@johnosbourn4312]

The one thing that really makes no sense in the accident report, is that the Boss hit the ground, tail first; since the formation is coming down the backside of the loop, when he had the control failure, all four went straight in, nose down, so the fact that the report said that all four hit tail first, is wrong. I can see hitting tail first if the Boss managed to find a way to start pulling out of the dive, and the formation had run out of room for a safe recovery. But, no, they all went in, nose first.

[@Robert-wq2bd]

The report did not say all four hit the tail first. By the time they were close to bottoming out, they were pulling 7 Gs. The line abreast was sagging at each end due to the unusally high formation Gs. #4 hit first, nose low on the outside left, followed by #3 just slightly nose low on the right, followed by #2 flat on the inside left, followed by #1 slightly nose high. #1 almost made it.

[@elijahjackson1134]

Cutting thru normal chat i heard a tool was left inside the boat tail,causing the jam.

[@migalito1955]

The paint job on the T 38 airshow planes is stunning & presumably difficult to bring about. My question then is: Did airforce personnel paint these planes or was it contracted out to a specialty contractor?

[@ronrogers]

Good question and I don't know. I thought the AF did the paint but not sure.

[@WilliamM-e6n]

On every U.S.A.F. T-Bird aircraft their paint work has always been stunning. The Thunderbird on the underside always look sharp as hell. I'm a U.S. Navy Blue Angels guy and will not deny the Thunderbird planes are the sharpest looking.

[@b.chuchlucious5471]

Yes, that was a classy livery and the serif font for the numbers looked great, also. Saw them at Maxwell and Luke before the -16's took over in '83.

[@garyculver4345]

The original T-bird F-16s arrived brand new from the factory in T-bird paint scheme. Subsequent touch-up and periodic full repainting performed by Thunderbird Corrosion Specialists (paint shop).

[@kevinmadore1794]

@@garyculver4345 Today, when the Thundebirds need a new jet, they usually get one from an ANG unit. It's a regular, front-line airplane. It comes to them in the low-viz gray that all F-16s are sporting, and they modify it and paint it in Thunderbird colors. I believe that the 'Birds are currently flying Block 52 jets. Interestingly, the Thunderbirds have always proclaimed that the jets could be made combat-ready in 72 hours. To prove that, many years ago they took one of the A-model jets, took out the smoke system, put the gun back, hung pylons on it, and one of the T-Bird pilots, Maj. B. J. Java (TB7), took the jet out to the Nellis ranges to drop some live Mark 82s and shoot some 20 mike-mike. I've seen pictures of that jet in Thunderbird paint, with bombs and missiles hanging on it. After the mission, somebody apparently wrote the name "Warbird" with his finger in the gun residue on the side of the airplane.

[@garyculver4345]

The accident was briefed to the team by Gen Creech as due to a pitch actuator being jammed by a portion of a rivet normally left in the stab during manufacture. Major Lowery had just completed a phone convo with Gen Creech before he walked to the flightline. He was not his usual jovial self, very tight lipped without the normal greetings to "the boys" as we lined up to salute and shake his hand. Apparently the phone call had not gone well. This potential distraction/pressure to immediately improve which led to a drastic decrease in the entry altitude for maneuvers that day was of course not in the accident report because his boss (Gen Creech) oversaw the investigation.

[@joe92]

@garyculver4345 Had there been issues prior to the phone call?

[@garyculver4345]

@@joe92 My understanding is that the show work-up/altitude decrease was not progressing at the expected rate.

[@chickenfishhybrid44]

And you know this how?

[@mdtiller1]

I went to F-4 school at DM with Willy Mays. So sad

[@440centerline]

I watched the T38 recovery from the water between Burke Lakefront Airport Airport and the 9th street pier. Fuselage was fractured and no evidence of wings or horizontal stab/elevator components

[@Electric-Bob]

Wasn't the USAF Flying T-38's at Malstrom AF Base in the late 70's?

[@jshepard152]

You know, the Thunderbirds had a near miss a couple weeks ago. Jet 3 went wobbly and nearly took out the jet above....and below.

[@briancooper2112]

Altimeter failure?

[@Doones51]

With that actuator being so critical to flight safety and known to fail at times, I wonder if it was a design or maintenance failure, and why they still had to fly with that problem occuring at times without a fix. A failure like that seems like it should have been corrected before anyone flew it again.

[@ronrogers]

This was an extremely rare failure that occurred at the worst possible time. Most critical failures in this aircraft are remedied by punching out.

[@robertwatson818]

I take it the aircraft did not have the zero/zero ejection seats?? Were those not in use as of that date?

[@ronrogers]

Would not have mattered. When you are in a high rate of descent, you need a lot of altitude for the seat to work. Sometimes as high as 10,000 ft AGL.

[@kevinmadore1794]

The T-38A did not have a zero-zero seat and still does not. Aircraft modified to the T-38C standard do now have a Martin-Baker US16T zero-zero seat. Most of the modified birds are in the Training Command. As the OP notes, a zero-zero seat would not have mattered in this case.

[@joncox9719]

I remember reading a report where they said a BOLT was lodged in the elevator which caused the crash! I KNEW it was a crock!

[@PETE-v4d]

I have over 50 years as an aircraft mechanic, the possibility of some type of FOD causing a problem like that is not hard to believe at all.

[@stevemellenthin5994]

We had an F-4D at Holloman AFB in 72 that had flight control issues on four flight when the roll stability augmentation system was engaged but flew fine when it was off. On the fifth flight the plane would not recover from a shallow dive and flew into the ground killing both crew members. a gouged and bent pair of pliers was found in the tail of the jet in the area where the rudder and stabilator linkages are adjacent. Accident board determined the FOD was the cause of the crash.

[@robertheinkel6225]

I remember reading the same thing. The bolt was improperly installed limiting elevator travel. The video of the four aircraft crashing one right after the other, was chilling.

[@Robert-wq2bd]

This was probably a jo-bolt, one of a great many that had been punched out by a contractor during the T-38 longeron mod. It was not something that had been improperly installed. It would be something that was lying hidden within the structure after the modification, until the inopportune moment.

[@captviri]

Im a mechanic for a major airline, there was a coworker who used to be maintenance crew chief for the Thunderbirds when that happened, l remember talking to him about it he said that the elevator malfunction story was a cover up

[@parkburrets4054]

Going on long term memory here…Video showed his elevator move to full up right near the end. That indicated that he had elevator control and didn’t have an actuator failure at the magical most-in opportune moment. Also, the leader willingly violated the low altitude limit for starting the maneuver that day. You have the credentials, but I’m calling you out for covering up the Air Force’s lies decades later; why?

[@ronrogers]

Interesting. Show me the video.

[@PETE-v4d]

Both reports I read say the stabs were no more than 11 degrees up when they hit, full up on the stab is about 17 degrees.

[@joe92]

@@ronrogers Creech destroyed it

[@ronrogers]

So you saw the original video before it was destroyed? The only videos I saw were from so far away (shown on the evening news) that you cold not see anything as distinct at stab position.@@joe92

[@joe92]

@@ronrogers You said "show me the video". My reply was to indicate it isn't possible. And why would anyone want to assert that pilot error was a factor if there wasn't a lot of smoke surrounding that? No one wants to believe it was pilot error, least of all me, but there's been too much smoke surrounding the topic for too many years. I posted links to some online discussions from some pretty credible sources and they were deleted.

[@johndoe-cp6vp]

I understand the T birds wanted to stop using training aircraft.

[@ronrogers]

They never wanted to use training aircraft. They always wanted to use front line fighters.

[@curtc4918]

I think you meant your most difficult maneuver in fingertip was a barrel roll? T-38 fingertip aileron roll quite impossible.

[@ronrogers]

Yes, you are absolutely correct. Posting on youtube is like being married. No mistake goes unnoticed or unmentioned🤣🤣🤣.

[@erictaylor5462]

There is a scary accident on you tube that was filmed by a group of sky divers. It was a large group jumping from two aircraft flying in a loose formation. At the start of the accident sequence it looks like the two planes are about 50-100 feet apart. The pilot of the wing aircraft takes his eyes off the lead aircraft just for a second, and in that time the aircraft come together. It was amazing that no one was even hurt. One of the planes lost a wing but the other was able to land safely, but even the pilot of the destroyed plane was able to bail out. It just shows how quickly formation flying can go wrong if anyone makes a mistake. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eonHdnhuaJyjbrM

[@Za7a7aZ]

Dont understand me wrong, I love a spectacular airshow with fighter jets but....why? Why risk the lives of talented pilots, waste resources and wait for the next accident to happen?

[@joe92]

Maybe we should all hide under our beds all day. After all, nothing is worth taking any kind of a risk for.

[@nealgill3023]

Investigator lead performed a beautiful maneuver. It’s called a cover up. Pilot error, who a thunderbird pilot? No, it was a loose bolt, more like a loose nut.

[@Peter-u6d]

Proof?

[@nealgill3023]

@@Peter-u6d look who they put in charge of the investigation. Would not want to tarnish their reputation.

[@toddw6716]

Slowdown. Let’s not rush to judgement. Let the investigators go thru the process before you jump to conclusions.

[@ronrogers]

This was 41 years ago. I don't think anyone's rushing to judgment.

[@toddw6716]

@@ronrogers sarcasm.

[@ronrogers]

Got me!! I am usually the one good at sarcasm! Although an earlier post on the Blue Angels (or Angles if you prefer), some thought it was a recent event even though it showed F-4s@@toddw6716

[@toddw6716]

@@ronrogers good post though.

[@scottthomas7147]

This was arrogance at it's worst! These robots who introduce themselves by their call signs, such as "Hi I'm Thunderbird 1" or whatever their number is blindly follow the leader, in this case , into the ground! This was a tragic incident, all because of ego! You can say what you want, but the fact is, these people are dead because they were so caught up in their own importance, they thought they were invincible, and consequently, not capable of critical thinking! Scott Thomas Fire fighter Indian Springs AFAF (1978 - 1982)

[@joe92]

What a spectacularly bad interpretation. I mean, really off target. How else do you fly formation?

[@scottthomas7147]

You fly formation by maintaining "Situational Awareness" at all times! You fail at that, and you fail! @@joe92

[@joe92]

@@scottthomas7147 Just that, huh? As long as you got SA, you're in formation. Good one.

[@jcheck6]

@@scottthomas7147 Scotty you don't know what you don't know about being a wingman flying in fingertip formation. All eyes are on lead and no where else.

[@scottthomas7147]

That's my point, robots who lose their SA and blindly follow! That is the only reason for this tragedy! Anyone of them could have called "knock it off" and saved the flight, but that would be dishonorable for a Thunderbird, better to die in a fiery crash...really!