COMMUNITY CHEST (feat. MID the Way id Did) - DEAN OF DOOM - S2E14

[@r.g.thesecond]

It's worth pointing out that Kaiser is THE Kaiser behind KEX Engine, (powering many remasters such as Quake 2, DOOM 64, and RoTT) and a Nightdive employee.

[@TheIcarusGuy]

It all came full circle lol

[@benitezclanceiv]

"We meet again, Gene Bird." puts a smile on my face

[@DinnerForkTongue]

> "We meet again, Gene Bird!" > map earns an all-time record grade for the author Wot 😶

[@expendableround6186]

The Comic Sans for Mr. Bird is an excellent touch.

[@lordbiscuitthetossable5352]

"We meet again, Gene Bird." "Wait, we have met before?" ".... Not yet." (Terminator theme initiates.)

[@DukeOnkled]

I like that both CCs have an absolute magnum opus stuffed in them. CatEoE may be abject, unadulterated agony, but the sheer clarity of purpose and (mostly) quality of craftsmanship evokes a literal regent of the inferno. It COMMANDS respect, and will NOT be denied. It knows exactly what it's doing to the player and shamelessly revels in it.

[@thelippyserver58]

Speaking as someone who's been doing sleight-of-hand magic performance for almost two decades, I can tell you there are two different kinds of magic tricks. There are the "bread-and-butter" sort of tricks that magicians perform for laymen and base the majority of their careers on. These tend to be fast paced, punchy and flashy. Their purpose is to entertain people who don't know, or particularly care, how magic works. Then there are "magician's tricks". Tricks you have in your back pocket in case another MAGICIAN asks to see something. While their are certainly exceptions, these tricks are generally best NOT shown to laymen. They tend to be more slow paced and procedural. They're purpose is to entertain people who have a deep understanding of magic - to intellectually challenge and stimulate a peer. Kevin's maps are the Doom mapping equivalent of magician's tricks. They come across to me to be for people who spend more time playing Doom Builder than Doom itself. A sort of "you know how all this stuff works, but can you follow this?" kind of challenge.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

That makes way too much sense.

[@r.g.thesecond]

This comment lives rent-free in my head. Your comment about playing Doom Builder more than Doom gives me some ideas but I don't know what it ultimately means for creative work. I have met people who make and endlessly play their own games but very rarely release anything to public, but also writers that rarely read their own work more than twice. I would have presumed that a level designer that has not playtested their level to death could not possibly make a good level, but here we are and a great counterexample being BPRD. A very interesting dichotomy. (I'm actually pretty divided regarding BPRD; probably any gameplay merit in his maps has come about accidentally and randomly)

[@thelippyserver58]

@@r.g.thesecond One of my all time favorite comedy films is Mel Brooks's The Producers, largely because I love the way it highlights the intangible, inexplicable, and often accidental qualities that make for great art. Edit: Also contextually, in the clip shown in this video of Kevin performing on TV, one of the people sitting with him is legendary magician Paul Daniels, and the routine he is performing there seems to lean in the "magician's tricks" direction. Seems like that was just his predilection.

[@r.g.thesecond]

@@thelippyserver58 Hey thanks for the follow-up! I had no context for the clip, very interesting to know that. Will check out The Producers as well. (and some more Brooks films cause I have not seen any)

[@yumheart3835]

About your comment on map29: It never felt to me like you were being authoritative with your opinions, you made clear from the very start that you aren't trying to give any definitive, objective gradings. I often disagree with your opinions on maps and the show is still always a pleasure to watch . v.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

📠📠📠📠📠 This right here. MtPain is just one more Doom enjoyer by the end of the day, and his words aren't gospel.

[@TheCh33ks]

The record for Citadel at the Edge of Eternity is just over an hour and eight minutes, which may be written as 1:08. In Dharmic religions such as Buddhism, the number 108 represents the number of temptations a person must face in their efforts to achieve nirvana. Probably just a coincidence.

[@DoomKid]

That is so, so fitting

[@pixelperfect1729]

May Kevin Reay be at peace in heaven, and may his maps burn forever in hell.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Could _not_ have put it better if I tried.

[@DesignatedMember]

6:25 Watching MtPain27 and Gene Bird finally become friends is the sort of stuff that puts tears in a kindergard teacher's eyes.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@billabobyt It went wrong in CC2 using so many of his Blind Alley maps as filler to reach the full 32 maps of a megawad. Those Blind Alley works have less effort and thought put into them than his dedicated contributions (The Boardwalk, Monster Mansion, Desecration, etc.), and strike me more as results of idle practice with the rudimentary mapping tools of his day than actual maps. They should've never left his desk drawer.

[@luisemilianogonzalezvinces3400]

Btw the amazing music is based on the song “Dead Skin Mask” by Slayer

[@TarosTheVoid]

16:20 Everytime I get to this part, I always chuckle at "Gene Bird broke his map" the delivery always gets me

[@wallyhackenslacker]

To put Citadel at the Edge of Eternity into perspective, the world record for Holy Hell is held by the legendary Okuplok himself and clocks in at 2 hours and a half. Holy Hell has almost 20 times more demons than Citadel and yet it only requires one and a half extra hours to beat.

[@cowrocks3630]

Your speech about Citadel at the Edge of Eternity and The Mucus Flow has been stuck in my head for months now. Interesting how two maps in both Community Chests caused you to have such strong gut reactions to them.

[@AltimaMantoid]

Alright, I'm going to come clean here. I have, to this day, never completed Map29 of Community Chest in a single session without dying, let alone going from a Pistol start. Always needed numerous saves. That map is *absolutely* brutal. As you put it, abhorrently sadistic. Coming from one critic to another, giving Citadel at the Edge of Eternity the score you did feels both like the correct and incorrect score. It plays so tedious, grindy, obtusely, eliciting so many groans of despair and suffering just by pure design, let alone it's impossibly monumental size and length. When a map has a UV-Max speedrun time almost the length of the entirety of Doom 2's 32-map Max run, you have a true behemoth, a real leviathan with the weight of all the frustrated anguish that accompanies it. CATEOE definitely earns it's keep as being memorable but possibly for all the wrong reasons. While these qualities do not necessarily make this map bad, it absolutely WILL deter most players from wanting to finish it, possibly to the point of just ending their playthrough right there before Map30 (or skipping it altogether and going straight to Map30.) The map can't possibly be a failure if this is the *exact* sort of feeling that Magikal expected to elicit from the player. At the same time, we cannot ignore that a map of this sort of Biblical proportions and maledictive, bottomless agony, heralded by a cataclysmic cacophony of wailing and gnashing of teeth, is going to make the majority of players simply either throw their hands up in retreat, outright force quit with an Alt-F4, or go in with the gamer lean and a sack full of more determination than you can find in the collective human spirit. I think I agree with your sentiments that this map simply cannot be properly rated. It's a vexing chore to struggle through but it's also something to behold with curious bewilderment. Meanwhile, the rest of this megawad pales in comparison, and there really isn't any maps that stand out as being amazing. The entire show really does fall on the shoulders of CATEOE, which will either bolster or taint your view of the rest of the package because of the sheer magnitude of it alone. I'm glad you covered this. Thank you.

[@borg3575]

This is why 29 may be in the top 5 of the most memorable maps of all time. I absolutely loved it. For every reason you and MtPain didn't. I replay this map when I want to clear my head of everything that's real and just disappear. I don't care how fkng long it takes. I'm completely invested in survival. It's more like a really great TV series that you get completely lost in. Sure I play wads where the goal is beating par and seeing how fast you get through it. Meh. Like weekend golfers who only care about how fast they can play the course. Me, I actually enjoy the battle and pulling through a seemingly impossible situation with 5% health and finding a little safespace where I can breathe for a moment and think to myself, how the fk am I going to get through this next section? I get some of the same enjoyment from map 13 too. Great vid from Mt Pain as always and I really enjoyed your breakdown. I wish I could wordsmith like that.

[@AltimaMantoid]

@@borg3575 I appreciate your response and differing point of view. This is why Doom is great.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

CATEOE, for me, is the first map in this whole show that deserves an F-. It's impressive and magnanimous in the same way that a sculpture of baked feces decorated with razorblades is -- no matter how commendable the effort to make it was and the vision of the project might've been, in the end it's just a pile of shit and tetanus waiting to happen, one that was knowingly and intentionally made that way by the creator. It goes beyond just being bad, so it gets a grade worse than "being bad".

[@blob1024]

You are so right. I instantly skipped it in my marathon of cchest wads. Sadly qataar didn't finish his demo, but to have him rage quit, you absolutely described perfectly the kind of map

[@cowrocks3630]

@@blob1024Before I knew anything about CChest, I had just beaten CChest2. I avoided it not because of map 29, because of the reviews. I was still not the best DOOM player, so I'm a bit thankful I avoided it

[@eduardodiaz9942]

Oh boy, Gene Bird is back! 6:47 If you're interested, that's a MIDI version of a Slayer song called "Dead Skin Mask". The original happens to be one of my favs from Seasons in the Abyss, which I have on vinyl.

[@MtPain27]

Awesome! Thanks for pointing this out.

[@dracorex6876]

One thing noticeable in Community Chest is that not a single map by Gene Bird got the F grade or the Tommy Wiseau treatment, unlike the three of the five in Community Chest 2.

[@kwahn106]

Fun fact about that 2% goop run at 22:50 - You take damage from goop exactly when your weapon is at the top of its arc (on the left or right) - so you can use that to help time scary goop runs like that!

[@Shepardus]

TheV1perK1ller and his demos are really underappreciated, and I was glad to hear him called out here for his MAP29 demo. Just finishing that map at all is an accomplishment, let alone doing so in a single segment, and with keyboard-only controls (as he always does). On his channel he records a lot of maps that otherwise don't get much attention. He recently finished a video series playing through and writing his thoughts on all 200 maps of RAMP.

[@ayoh2842]

I really needed to hear someone talk about Citadel at the Edge of Eternity. It was over a decade ago when I first played it. I think it's the only Doom map I've played where I needed a debriefing after finishing it. I had to try to tell anyone who would listen about what I thought I'd experienced. I'll never play it again, but it's amazing how fascinating it is to me. My main wish would be to interview the creator about it if that were possible. That goes for Goin Down as well. It's a work of art in a weird way.

[@pixelperfect1729]

Man that review of Map 29 was such an emotional rollercoaster! Ever since I saw this map on Doomworld’s Top 100 Most Memorable Maps, I wondered what you’d think of it and what grades you’d give it, and your review did not disappoint.

[@zacherybates427]

It's placed 54th in the top 100 most memorable maps

[@expendableround6186]

At the very least it earned it's slot.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@expendableround6186 For all the wrong reasons.

[@metalngames509]

I love how the replacement for Shawn's Got The Shotgun is just another slayer song. XD

[@DoomKid]

For some reason, I just appreciate Doom Junk 😂At 13:30 my first thought was something like "Ooh, cool big open area with ruins" and you just *instantly* pointed out how ugly it is, it cracked me up! 16:27 LMFAO 25:50 God.. Just listening to you describe this map was an epic journey unto itself.. Thank you for playing that so most people won't have to. What a ride..! Also, I just want to mention how crazily well the MIDIs tend to fit the maps.. Works perfectly. Great video man!

[@robertflueraru8353]

Hey, Doomkid, I wanted to ask you (since you're into 90s/ pseudo-90's style): what do you think of Nicolas Monti's maps? I'm sure you probably answered this already but I couldn't find anything.

[@MtPain27]

Thanks for heading up MIDTWID! It was a relief from hearing Bobby’s beat up old tunes and made for a great score for this video

[@DoomKid]

@@robertflueraru8353 I swear I responded to this. Nics wads are zaney fun, theres really nothing else quite like them

[@robertflueraru8353]

@@DoomKid Yeah, he quickly became one of my favourite mappers due to his unique style. Really showcasing how 3D Doom can be. I wanted to ask you since you're one of my "authorities" when it comes to retro & retro styled .wads due to all of the content you produced and compiled and I wanted to know your opinion as well.

[@dunder567]

It seems to me like Doom mappers were really struggling to figure out how to make difficult maps back in the day. I’m playing through Fractured Worlds right now and even though it’s hard, I’m constantly blown away by how creative and fun it is to play. I’m glad we found ways to make Doom both challenging and fun because I don’t think I’d still be playing if we only had maps like the ones in CC. There’s only so much obtuse progression, backtracking, and intense resource starvation I can take before Doom starts feeling like a chore.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

One thing CC1 did for us and we should be thankful for it: it coalesced so many bad, obtuse and r*tar*ed ideas in one mapset that we could throw them out all at once.

[@dunder567]

@@DinnerForkTongue I think CC1 really showcases the type of experimentation mappers were doing in that era. Sure, most of it came out bad, but I want to think that it led mappers to better ideas and design philosophies that eventually brought us the superb, creative pwads coming out today. Obviously, innovations like Boom/MBF and better mapping software have helped as well. I won't ever play CC1 but it's interesting to look at and see how far Doom mapping has come.

[@spoonybard13]

I mean, I suppose there's a point to be made there, since mapping HAS evolved a lot over the last nearly 20 years, but even from this era there are still mapsets that people hold in high regard, like Alien Vendetta. With that in mind, I don't know if the lack of quality in these maps has THAT much to do with just being a product of their time.

[@dunder567]

@@spoonybard13 Fair point. I’m just glad that mappers realized the limitations of this type of “hard” map design and found new and creative ways to make their maps difficult while still being fun to play.

[@bluefin844]

@@spoonybard13 Alien Vendetta was quite honesly the best in what could be considered the "Remedial Class" of Doom WADs. Compared to most doom wads now, Alien Vendetta is painfully average. I'd argue projects like Scythe and Hell Revealed 2 were top of the class with AV riding the coattails and being remembered more.

[@hebonky]

I think it would be a funny concept to dedicate a whole episode to Gene Bird's Blind Ally series.

[@hebonky]

I feel like map 29 is so good at being mean. It's like getting a death threat that's beautifully written..... also citadel at the edge of eternity is such a badass name.

[@digithead100]

the worst thing about citadel at the edge of eternity is that i felt guilty for hating because its author had passed away(he was relatively young too, in his 40s i believe) kudos to him for making such a beast of a map, may he rest in peace

[@DinnerForkTongue]

I don't. His passing is sad but doesn't make his map any more palatable or playable.

[@tovarishchayka152]

17:17 Actually I met that gimmick in "Hell 2 Pay" megawad, in MAP32 to be precise. There you had 10 minutes to leave a building, to make that, you have to destroy all "light bulbs" (Comander Keen replacements). That level was really nicely done, due to some sectors imitating timers that show how many minutes left before death.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

That vaguely reminds me of map31 in Cchest3. It doesn't have any Keen replacements, but you do get a countdown to death (ha ha) and the sequence is super well done. You know, as can be expected from Lupinx-Kassman 😉👍

[@CammyWritesMusic]

Fantastic work as always! Between this, Icarus, and Speed of Doom, I've developed the strangest ability to play megawads right before they get Deaned. This time though, you caught me right before I entered MAP29. Not that I was expecting a cakewalk from a map with so great and terrible a reputation, but I didn't realize it would have been *that* dire. The warning is much appreciated and I'll be steeling my tedium-vulnerable self accordingly, considering I'd have eagerly given both of Use3D's maps Fs if I was the one doing the reviewing (certainly Another Dead Hero at least - it's such an unambiguous dick move to not just obfuscate progression as much as that map does, but to coat half the place in lava and limit radsuits with such severity. Makes E3M7 look generous and straight-forward.) After your two longest videos back-to-back, I'd encourage either a break or reviewing a shorter wad. It's well-deserved. I hope you enjoyed Mid The Way id Did! Even if it was only a little more than a year that we were working on it, I can't help but be nostalgic. That's where I took my extreme crash course in midi composition and learned all the ins and outs of the midi format in a couple short months in an effort to prove to others and myself that, even though my pre-Doom music went nowhere and had almost no eyes on it, I could still leverage the experience from it to contribute to something great and make a name for myself. Yours is one of my favorite channels on KZbin and it's become a point on my personal bucket list to have a midi of mine be good enough that it gets shouted out and played on the show - I'll keep working hard until that happens, and then for longer after that! Your comment on Suplex the Stars - the MAP32 midi - gave me a chuckle. Contrarian and shit-eating as it makes me sound, it really *isn't* supposed to fit Grosse that well. Since that map is pretty much just a big joke, I thought it would be funny on a meta level to write a ridiculously lengthy, involved, and over-the-top midi for it. In hindsight I think it came across as rather showy and attention whorish, but people have said they like that midi, so I guess it's alright in the end. :)

[@MtPain27]

Actually, that explanation for Suplex makes it both appropriate and quite funny. In any case, it was a weirdly good match for Gene's map, in that it provided ambiance and forward momentum to a map that had none of either.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@MtPain27 The irony is palpable.

[@obake7260]

I'll be honest, I was feeling really down today, and this video helped me cheer up. I like what you say about spreading the joy of Doom. Thanks, Dean of Doom!

[@zephytime8196]

It speaks well of Doom II's soundtrack that even after probably thousands of repetitions over years and years of playing, the Dean falling silent for Shawn's Got The Shotgun's thundering klaxon of an opening still puts a chill in your bones. The opening paragraphs of Map29's review are nothing short of dread-inducing, and as far as I'm concerned, the Citadel at the Edge of Eternity owns that track. Neither Dead Simple nor The Living End can really bring out the sheer intimidation it's capable of. On that note, you actually have a hell of a way of punctuating your writing with moments like that, or the song's reiteration in the closing statements of your review. Kickass work.

[@MtPain27]

Completely agree about Shawn and Citadel: they're a match made in Hell.

[@zephytime8196]

@@MtPain27 Yeah, I may have neglected to mention that after said ominous opener you get 6 hours of 12-bar blues on repeat. You gotta have something like that to really catalyze the brainmelting.

[@officialFredDurstfanclub]

I love these Community Chest wads because they’re such a chaotic messes. Genuinely excellent maps stacked next to babby’s first Doom level. Horribly outdated design choices alongside genuinely unique and creative experiments. Well thought out and crafted layouts right beside throw-shit-at-the-wall-see-what-sticks tripe. They’re so charming, a perfect insight into the community whenever they came out. (Also I never thought I’d see Gene Bird get a rating higher than a C but here we are)

[@PeccatumMihzamiz]

Thank you for a lovely episode, as always! I'm also happy to finally be in one of your videos, if only because of the tracks I made for MAP06 and MAP31 :)! Wishing you the best with everything and looking forward to many more episodes of one of my favorite series!

[@Neurometry]

Shoutout to CC1 for having 2 maps both with Citadel in the name

[@pixelperfect1729]

If this show was a TV series, imagine how perfect this would be as a final episode.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

It certainly has the drama in the final act to match...

[@avvthebizarre7978]

The entire way you described MAP29 felt like the sickest adventure, the name and look of it is super awesome too, so much so I kinda wanna try it out myself despite being horrible at Doom. Love the video!

[@bingbong_117]

I gotta say a couple of things: First, thank you for uploading, its always a joy to see you upload. Second, you know the review is about the get serious when the screen fades to black, the next map fades in, and you hear the absolute dread, admiration, or awe(or a combination of the three) in your voice. Third, GENE BIRD IS BACK BABY WHOOOOO

[@emmaessex]

glad to see you're getting your groove back! i hope you had some quality downtime over the past few months, even if the downtime was challenging. love the digression in this one.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

I have to agree. He sealed off the sabbatical with two ironclad doorbusters.

[@WW-zt1zs]

6:51 it's actually midified Dead Skin Mask by Slayer or at least heavily inspired. Fitting since Shawn got the shotgun is heavily inspired by South of Heaven also made by Slayer :) Great video Dean!

[@lemonlytical2071]

The monster mission opening was gold. Great video as always!

[@NigBickDoomguy12345]

You've reached quite a level of quality and entertainment. I love the lore and insight on each map. Thanks for all you do man. This was an excellent episode, was looking forward to it since CC2.

[@tyhutchinson9530]

Dropping in again to say I can't stop binging through your videos. You've inspired me to pick a few new megawads up, and even managed to trigger some forgotten memories about great classics I played years ago. We don't always agree, notably on music and difficulty, but you have good eye for quality gameplay and have proven a good litmus test for quality levels. Keep it up!

[@_antares031]

It felt like CatEoE got its own video review, like The Mucus Flow. Thanks for covering this megawad! 👍

[@DinnerForkTongue]

I don't think it fascinated the Professor enough to earn that honor, though. If it did, it was on sheer audacity.

[@nathanbeets8229]

Thank you for your service of playing this and saving us all the pain.

[@ludi1982]

I love seeing you cover these prehistoric wads in the context of someone who has thoroughly examined the great wads of the 2010s Boom Renaissance. It's so odd going back to the age of the community's growing pains, haha

[@jamescresswell1532]

Ahhh, the original Community Chest. An absolute aspiration back when I was a n00b (inb4: "But Phobus, you're still a n00b!"). Especially MAP29, which is a strange of combination of the worst map to play and the most impressive thing to a mapper, even one with as much editor time under their belt as I have. Truly a nostalgia trip, this video, although it did remind me that, although a trend-setter and "legendary", it's still a megaWAD full of maps that most people wouldn't go back to play. Still, I was honoured to be asked to join in on CC3, and the legacy lives on. Thanks for playing it so that I don't have to go back to it ;)

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Oh hell yeah, here's one of the key presences of the latter two Cchests. Godforsaken Hole, Three's A Crowd, and how many more again, Phobus? Citadel was for sure a visionary project. Sadly Magikal's game design skill was nowhere near up to par and the map is unbearably sloggy as a result.

[@Alephany]

Really surprised you did CC1. This episode was so funny with the return of Gene Bird and the complains on MAP29 (I'm scared to think when I'll have to play it not gonna lie). Your channel is a treasure each upload you make. If MAP29 was torture to play then you might want to avoid the insanity inducing of another MAP29 in Slaughterfest 2012. Simply put, Hazmat Hazama has more sense than that map "Degrassi". Still wondering if you'll ever make a Dean of Doom on Perdition's Gate. I play Megawads after you make a Dean of Doom on them just to "compare" our point of view and I'm really curious to see what you think of Perdition's Gate. Again great stuff!

[@DinnerForkTongue]

The thing about Hazmat Hazama is, if you ditch all conventions of level design and explore, it has surprisingly natural flow for a Toasty map. You do have to switch off the "usual Doomer" part of your brain for that though.

[@syukinami]

I mean... that'd be implying MtPain27 would willingly review one of the Slaughterfest wads. If he did, my respect for him would be higher than it already is. :p

[@Nachokinz]

Map 29... my best analogy to this relates to food. One definition of a well balanced meal may be a combination of meats, vegetables, various seasonings; maybe even some spicy peppers mixed and fried to ones preference. Map 29 reminds me of a dish served by one who is fixated with spice, a stew filled to the brim with the hottest peppers. Truely a dish preferred by very few, but to those few creates an obsession; a drive to experience a type of seeming insurmountable anguish and suffering. All this to then be followed by such an intense dopamine rush when one manages to finish such a meal. I for one... am not fitting of that demographic; despite never finishing that map I can respect the vision and mindset to experiment, unafraid of throwing the player to the wolves. Community chest as a whole has brought valuable lessons that have been carried forward and such projects provide vital practice for aspiring mappers / developers. Thank you for taking the time to review and provide a window back to gain perspective on how mapping has been honed over the decades.

[@RbDaP]

"I don't understand" -DOOM, Dean of (I don't know something about the delivery of this specific line in MAP 29 section just gets me you know? Like a King Solomon double standing at the edge of eternity (!)

[@hebonky]

Well I'm glad Kaiser is now working with Nightdive to port everything that exists.

[@kleetin1292]

This megawad has haunted me for YEARS because of goddamn MAP06 and let me tell ya it felt so good for you to rip into that map. So many hours wasted before just looking up a playthrough for that godforsaken blue key

[@Enterim]

When there's a mono-textured room with fullbright lighting I wince and boy did this video have me wincing a lot.

[@Pengairxan]

This is your most powerful Video yet, It successfully knocked out my Internet when I went to click on it. Honestly the build up of my router dying again better be worth it for CC1 Edit: Gene Bird Round 2 and Citadel at the Edge of Eternity made it extremely worth it.

[@RandomAccess29]

Man I cant wait to watch you tear this one asunder. This was genuinly one of the most painful megawads to finish.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Right? As much shit as it's given, CC2 is a better experience.

[@0x20pirate]

a sunder? don't get my hopes up!

[@KamiJoJo]

20:09 I recall this MIDI being used in Doom 3 - Mr. Smiley Head's Safari, unintentional nostalgia blast from an ancient WAD

[@sharpfalcon6196]

Oh, it's the WAD with Street Fighter 2 and Mortal Kombat II soundbytes.

[@ladams391]

I'll be honest, as much as I love Bobby Prince's work in general, the Doom II soundtrack starts to really wear on me after a while, especially in maps that are particularly sloggy or grindy. .Mid the Way id Did has completely transformed my latest playthrough of the game, some truly great music in there to the point where I pull up and the whole playlist and let it run in the background while I'm working on my computer.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

It's very rare that a Prince midi shows up and I don't immediately quit the game and hop into SLADE to make a pwad with a replacement tune. Most of his tunes are painfully overexposed and kill the mood of my gameplay, with precious rare exceptions like Aztecorum in Plutonia 2 with its _masterful_ allocation of I Sawed The Demons, or Dark Halls in OG Plutonia's Well of Souls.

[@Starspun5000]

two and a half hours. That is how long my first playthrough of Citadel at the Edge of Eternity was. But that's not even taking into account the amount of time spent saving and reloading. If I had to guess, I would say my total time playing this map was likely four or maybe four and a half hours. I have never in my life spent anywhere near as much time in any map ever, especially one I've only ever beaten once. CATEOE is one of those kinds of levels that I was absolutely dreading but was also strangely excited to play. I just needed to see with my own two eyes just how painful this map was. And I will certainly say I was not disappointed.

[@MtPain27]

Congrats on finishing it!

[@samuelfreeman5483]

I'm really happy you covered this Dean. One of my favorite wads, warts and all. Thanks MtPain!

[@DinnerForkTongue]

This comment is proof that taste IS subjective.

[@PrismaticAngel]

Also, I'm pretty sure Citadel at the Edge of Eternity ruined Shawn's Got the Shotgun for me. Hearing that goddamn riff every time I started it up really wore me down.

[@AJXTHEWALL]

if there is a mt pain community map set, i'm gonna make a map called sadistic.

[@The_Kenster]

woah that felt like a fast turnaround since the last one. real happy to see another one of the community chests done

[@basspon3_official]

Always a treat when the Dean uploads a new episode!

[@n00f]

Good digression. That's all I can say about that leviathan. Rest of the wad, another good DoD episode. I was thrilled to see Gene Bird back.

[@TheTrueCowKing]

After seeing map 29, I don’t think I’ll be tackling this map set anytime soon

[@DinnerForkTongue]

It's really not worth it. If you have to play CChest, play 3 and 4.

[@phearamax4146]

In Citadel’s case, “F” stand for “Fuck you but also good job”

[@DinnerForkTongue]

For me, the grade it gets from me is "I can respect the ambition and the vision, but the end result is Sunlust MAP29 to you, Magikal". Which grade? F-.

[@Microwave414]

May I suggest adding a new grade for a level? E, as in It didn't exactly pass but you acknowledge a lot of work went into it and for another person they might find what that map is selling to be up their alley, but not for you.

[@Robin-lg6mz]

That map 19 segment was perfect

[@hornedpout]

I have never seen Community Chest maps but I want to say how impressed I am with your recap of Map 29. So much to talk through. All of the videos and edits are impressive, but especially that one considering how lengthy and tedious it is. That looked insane.

[@jacekbourne]

Excellent. I did not expect another video this soon due to previous expectations. Also, I saw Disturbia and Miasma in your saves. I look forward to them both especially.

[@kinetic03]

I like the idea of doing some single level videos. Those levels obviously would have to be historically significant or really good though, so it wouldn't fit in with the normal show. But maps like Disturbia and Miasma certainly are worthy of reviews by Mt. Pain, and those kind of videos would definitely pander towards the more skilled players :p

[@theblurcafex1655]

A new upload after 3 heures d'agonie? It's Christmas all over again! Hope you're doing good MtPain! EDIT: gotta love the "CC1 GOD HELP ME 29" save name

[@CinnamonKilljoy]

25:48 I love the entire segment on MAP29.

[@CinnamonKilljoy]

@Mr. Pain You'll undoubtedly be delighted to know you've inspired me not only to UV-max this map (which, thank to dsda, won't be noted anywhere since I'm a GZDoom strict fuck), but to surpass it by creation? It'll probably be years, but I'll do it. And I still love your review of it. I just love the map a bit more. ❤

[@William_Huber]

You're on a roll ! A new episode so soon, that was quite unexpected. You never cease to impress :) I've never played "Citadel at the Edge of Eternity" myself, but heard a lot of unpleasant things about it. Your extended take on it is absolutely hilarious, and also respectful of Magikal as a person and as a real magician (I'm sure many of us didn't even know about that). He'd probably have appreciated the homage, despite the F his magnum opus was given. May he rest in peace. I'm a bit saddened to see that even the first Community Chest manages to outclass Hell Revealed II in your eyes, though :p

[@MtPain27]

I know you guys love HR2 :). To be fair, CC1's best does NOT outdo Jonas Feragen and Sam Woodman's best work.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@MtPain27 A "higher highs and lower lows" situation?

[@MtPain27]

@@DinnerForkTongue CC1 is more moderate: same level of roughness, but easier on the whole to get through by a bit

[@joeilya]

I remember liking the mapset when I first played it with continuous plays and saves, but when I revisited it years later with saveless pistol starts; the flaws became more apparent: -Easy to die -Ammo and HP starvation -Inescapeable death pits -Shotgun grind -80% of maps are long -Cryptic -Awful 3D bridge placement

[@gregor1O1]

Just finished Auger;Zenith and 1000 Lines 3. I discovered both through last year's Cacowards. In case you're looking for current wads to play/review, those two are among the best i played. The former is a must-play if you like Cyberpunk as a genre. And 1000 Lines 3 is just extremely high quality all round. BIG thumbs up. Would be great to see them on Dean of Doom some day.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Your comment about AUGER;ZENITH couldn't have been posted at a better time.

[@gregor1O1]

@@DinnerForkTongue Yeah, I wasn't expecting him to follow my advice so quickly. Hopefully that means the 1000 Lines 3 review is up next. ;)

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@gregor1O1 Passing by, saw this comment chain by opportunity, and feel like adding something on-topic: if you haven't played 50 Shades Of GRAYTALL, do so. Another knockout as reviewed by MtPain.

[@Vanska0]

Thank you for making these videos! Eventhough i've been playing different doom wads on and off since early 2005, there's still many i've only discovered through your rankings. I love hearing your thoughts and reviews of each map, and also the comment section to your videos are highly informative too :) ! Most of these wads i've only played through with a friend in coop (whenever the wad supports it), i couldn't even imagine putting myself through of something like map29 on my own!

[@spineappletea]

a few months ago i was working on a map and was considering calling it necrophobia. i decided against it when i learned gene bird made a map by the same name.

[@x1teDota]

I hope you continue the Community Chest series. I especially enjoyed CC4.

[@blaiseuriarte8296]

I am re-watching this, and Map 29 islike something the Lament Configuration would summon... Both in essence and visually.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

I wouldn't be surprised if, inside the late Magikal's mind, dwelled a tiny little cenobite.

[@blaiseuriarte8296]

He could possibly be living on as one 😬

[@NiGHTS108_]

I’m convinced Mid The Way Id Did is secretly a Community Chest MIDI pack

[@expendableround6186]

It better fits "DOOM 2 the way ID did" and "DOOM 2 in Name Only" if you ask me.

[@TARDIS326]

I believe from playing it, MAP26, the switch you take the flickering lift up to hit, that opens the red key.

[@Runie549]

Well, at least they were being serious about putting the word "Eternity" into a Doom level name for once.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

It's only fitting, accounting for the required playtime and the patience one has to have to even consider facing it without OP mods or cheats or what have you.

[@protostar5946]

Interesting to see how community mega wads like this and its sequel have evolved over the years. Fine work MtPain! Also happy Chinese New Year!

[@DinnerForkTongue]

There is absolutely no comparison between CC1 and 2 and, say, Nova or JPCP. Those mapsets yell "the future is now, old man!" and spit on Cchest's faces.

[@protostar5946]

@@DinnerForkTongue There is actually *very little* competition since The Mucus Flow exists.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

@@protostar5946 TMF is the very definition of outlier, though. I don't even consider it part of the Cchest2 package.

[@protostar5946]

@@DinnerForkTongue ...Ight fair enough.

[@shiba2ndworlder]

My man finally reviewed this!👏 Even though there is a lot of thrash in this CP, it's still very significant for the Doom community.

[@DoomKid]

Well said!

[@DinnerForkTongue]

It is, as a good indicator of what NOT to do.

[@mollywantshugs5944]

Map 29 sounds like a painful experience but also something the Doom community is better for having

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Sure, in the sense that it drew the line in the sand of what is bad map design and what is good. It has so much bad that all you gotta do is avoid imitating it at all costs.

[@mollywantshugs5944]

@@DinnerForkTongue somehow even this feels a touch harsh to me. I meant more in the sense that levels filled with unreserved cruelty have a place in Doom. Shouldn’t be the standard, but should definitely be there somewhere for people who really want that sort of thing because there will always be some

[@PrismaticAngel]

Yo the first CC! I was hoping you'd do this one because I played through all the Community Chests last year and this first one was... special, shall we say. I'm especially looking forward to your opinion of the infamous Citadel at the Edge of Eternity. That one took me over 3 hours! Edit: Review did not disappoint.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Special as in "special needs", you mean. CC1 as a whole is as badly aged and trashy as the first knapped rock tool ever made by an hominid, before we found out flint was good for it.

[@mrdonutswildride7808]

Citadel at the Edge of Eternity changed my life. Its what got me back into Doom after years out of the game due to other stuff showing up in the late 90s. I havent looked back in 20 years. But a spate of curiosity upon access to Broadband in 2004 led me to see what the world of doom looked like after the fabled ten year mark. I think I found it through T U D's website, where I followed his development of Super Sonic Doom. It taking a while, I explored his other suggestions. And I found CC1 through that site (as well as ZDaemon but that is another story for some other day). Citadel at the Edge of Eternity, even in previews blew my mind as to what the doom engine was capable of. The map was exemplary in where the capabilities of doom stood ten years down the line. I dont know if it was good, or valid, or what it was. But it showed that Doom could still give even the most hardened of veterans what for. It is the Starry Night if Van Gogh was allowed to kick you in the balls for several hours and if he also died under suspicious ball kicking circumstances, instead of the sheer tragedy of the truth. It played tricks and used techinques nobody had considered but people have since then turned commonplace and studied...the product of a sick but incredible mind. There may one day be a contemporary to Misri Halak or, hell, even Mucus Flow. Some could argue they already exist. But nothing will ever match the mystique, decadence, or beautiful cruelty of Citadel at the Edge of Eternity. Also there were 31 other maps. -TMD

[@chainsawplayin]

I love how you use Doomguy's facial expressions for some moments

[@Sirzhukov]

Great content, as always. Perfect way to spread the joy of Doom for newcomers.

[@liammccullough3190]

Having watched your review of CC2 countless times, the middling review of it and the intense love you have for the Mucus Flow, it is quite striking how much of a polar opposite this wad was for you. The wild experimenting with fake bridges, the intense and intentional cryptic designs that petered out in CC2 to the behemoth of CATEOE and what you could say about it. I've never touched a CC myself and just hearing about how much of a soul crushing experience Map29 was is just striking. I don't think there was any other way to really talk about it. You sounded close to tears towards the end of it. Salutations to your will for pushing through these early and wild years of doom mapping.

[@DinnerForkTongue]

If you ever feel like playing a Cchest wad, pick between 3 and 4. They're the good ones.

[@k0sh3n0straslayer]

Thnks for the doom 2 midi replacement link, been looking for one for a close to vanilla one for a while

[@Ioannis29]

Great video man! I love your commentary and I always look forward to your next review. Poor Gene Bird lol. You’ll love some of the WADS on the Unity Port.

[@eggboy9126]

The community chest series is the only wad series I can think of where you play 32 maps just to play 1 map.

[@damien__j]

16:39 ha I replayed this last week and fell for this exact thing because I was low on health and didn't want to trigger a trap

[@H3llKeeper1]

About map29 "A grade A level is fun..." In this map fun is in negative value

[@generalroasterock8114]

It's good to see the schedule pick up again. I was definitely not expecting a backwards movement in the CC line, especially considering the accepted quality of the set as a whole. It's easy to forget sometimes that for a set as old as this one, the tools for putting it together had nowhere near the functionality that they do today. Doom Builder (the first one) didn't even have a visual 3D viewing mode until around the time the WAD released. Seeing these creators produce all of the environments they did is already a feat, even if many of them play like being stuck in a sack of boulders. It's interesting to see the grading system referenced as a point of discussion, which is something I always believed it was. I had already noticed some point near the start of the season that the section regarding lower graded maps missing the qualities of an A rank in the intro was missing, so I figured there was a new outlook developed on it. If I had taken the system as an objective measure without any room for debate I wouldn't have bothered talking since the Eviternity episode. At the end of the day, Doom is available to everyone, and every individual can relish or suffer as they please. On the other hand, there's a great many reasons to take pride in how you qualify levels. Not only did you have the notoriety to be such a unique figure in the Doom space, but also the qualification. Say it's your opinion as many times as you want, if I'm hearing out both a graduated writer, and armless Carl who says that Requiem sucks because he can't play the WAD with his face, I would take the former's understanding to heart first. In the same ways that there are people more equipped to play the highest end of challenge, it's pretty special to understand what succeeds in quality for a level. Having heard nothing but the fact that Map 29 was long, it's pretty crazy to observe how soul crushing the experience is. Personally, solely being a really long, really aggravating experience on its own is not enough to warrant commemoration. Mechanical Embrace from Finely Crafted Fetish Film holds to exactly that regard. Without spoiling anything in the map, it's long, crippling, and feels very much like an artistic project coming for your lungs. It is a Ribbiks map, one that stands far out from his already exceptional catalogue. The whole WAD is a test of skill of the highest caliber, and I can only recommend it as an end goal for mastery of the game. Great stuff as always, always eagerly waiting.

[@DBUP-l8h]

Hey, you know what happene to Hexa? I remember him shouting you out a lot in his videos. Miss that dude, some of the best and funniest doom playthroughs I have ever seen.

[@jikissgamer]

Great review as always MtPain. MID the Way ID Did is excellent, used it for my replay of Doom 2 the Way ID Did and it was a great companion piece.

[@expendableround6186]

It's even better with "DOOM 2 the way ID did."

[@Arivia1]

In case anyone else is stupid enough to play community chest after watching this review like me (you really shouldn’t it does not spread joy of doom), you get that pinky and berserk in MAP22 by opening a discolored wall in the room after the nukage fall. Hit the switch behind it, and the nukage fall will lower, revealing the pinky and the berserk. (It’s effectively an untagged secret.)

[@Ayeloo]

Seeing genebird's mapmaker character arc makes me happy up until the point I remember he made these maps before CC2 But honestly they are cool

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Here's the thing, though: Gene's best rated maps are the ones with original names. The ones with IWAD map names strike me as being from Blind Alley, which seems to be a series of mapping exercises that should have never been publicized.

[@Chronoteeth]

theres something about these cchest mods having that one map thats iconic and timeless: both positive and negative

[@DinnerForkTongue]

Which maps fit this bill in Cchest3 and 4 is more subjective, but I guarantee you, they're there.

[@domukaz]

Man, Citadel at the Edge of Eternity sounds like it earns its pulp-science-fiction title. Good on you for getting through it despite the frustration!

[@DinnerForkTongue]

He did, but at what cost?

[@himynameisben95]

11:04 is that another instance of free look I spot?

[@veloarc3321]

Just in time for my lunch break! This day just got a lot better!

[@thereelburn7875]

Thank you MtPain, love watching you rip into a map and these videos genuinely make my day.

[@kthxbaiz]

Shame you gave up on MAP29 before the blue key area, I would've liked to hear you go off on the part that REQUIRES you to wall-run in order to progress

[@MtPain27]

I can't remember if I showed it, but yeah, that was one of many last straws.