Community takes work (obviously)

[@zeluizduarte]

Very good!

[@Ralfrobot]

A Lovely balanced explanation

[@Bruderhof]

Thank you!

[@andrewdewitt7234]

Wow! This chapter deserves a couple of read-throughs as there is a lot to think about. A couple of thoughts sprang out at me -

[@Bruderhof]

Thanks Andrew! Sharing burdens also requires a high level of trust between community members. Very important that that is maintained and repaired when broken. And it's so important not to get hung up on things that annoy or divide (unless it's a matter of conscience). But it happens so easily! - Rich

[@anybenfotiamine1728]

The submitting to one another in the context of the scripture reference is with regard to service to individual needs and the service is a calling by God. God places a calling on one’s life, not others. I’ve been through the motions with this scripture and certainly God didn’t want us being constantly controlled by the whims and wants of others. In addition, many arguments arose with godly justification. They weren’t merely worldly arguments: They were doctrinal.

[@melfros7100]

@@anybenfotiamine1728 Disagreements are evidence that the spirit MAY speak differently to each person. Unity should not be the expected outcome! Unity is a gift! It should not be the default position! No two people are at the same point in their spiritual development. Disagreement is always neutral at its inception. What we do with our disagreements is something else. Disagreement can server positively, to help us always seek for common ground. Disagreement need not divide us.

[@Ralfrobot]

Perfectly explained

[@ruthlaurie-hopper3489]

I believe it takes immense self control, dedication and faith. It sounds amazing to me. Difficult but perfect in the right state of mind and commitment. I want to join bruderhof but not sure if bruderhof want me hahaha. I have much to give and want to. You don't persuade anyone I'm trying to persuade you. I love my zoom contact with Jesse and Lenor and our group. My time at Beechgrove with Ruthie and wilym was generous and kind I appreciate. I love who you are.

[@Bruderhof]

So glad you could visit! Hope you come again.

[@anybenfotiamine1728]

It is best that people have autonomy to do what one wills instead of having to meet a list of community standards/expectations/programs, which are very intrusive, rigid and daily. I would totally live there if I were able to have an outside job, pay my share to live “on campus”, and retain the ability to choose when and where to fellowship and serve community-within God’s expectations, of course. But the way it is now doesn’t reflect the Bible’s examples of free will to choose simple activities throughout the day because one has to constantly be “In community” and in step with a rigid program. I do not see that in the Bible. It is just not there. We all should be able to come and go as we choose, and we all should be able to do so without the fear of being called selfish. That’s overstepping and cultish, making others a slave to your routines. And quite frankly, I think that your rigidity is keeping me from true felllowship. I’ll always be an outsider because I don’t agree that your model is biblical. There needs to be a compromise without compromising God’s word. Your idea of community is just that-your idea. I would kick my own self out if I didn’t agree with God’s idea of community, but I’m certainly not disagreeing with God. What is the solution?

[@Bruderhof]

These are good questions. I think Jesus does call us to renounce things (wealth, privilege) and he did call his disciples to "come follow me" which meant leaving behind the life they were comfortable with and embarking on a life of discomfort and danger (take up your cross). So if we say we're disciples we cannot just come and go as we choose. Ultimately following Jesus is a choice but it's dishonest to say we're following him when we're doing what we want to do. To your point about a rigid program of community: I don't see it that way. We're simply trying to live in obedience to Jesus' teachings in the Sermon on the Mount. We don't have all the answers and if there are ways we can be more faithful we're open to them. What we're not open to is diminishing the radical nature of the new way of life that Jesus describes. Thanks for responding - Rich

[@anybenfotiamine1728]

@@Bruderhof I never would suggest nor did I write that the coming and going I referred to was with regard to carrying our cross or renouncing the world and it’s power, prestige, and riches. I wasn’t talking about abandoning our morals and godliness with regard to coming and going. I was simply referring to coming and going on and off the compound. In addition, the coming and going clearly was referring to being able to make simple decisions about one’s life such as the who, what, when, where and whys of our everyday life. God never asked us to give up our personal autonomy with regard to things that are NOT sinful. If I want to eat with a friend instead of the group, this is not sinful. If I want to go to the store at will and buy something I need without seeking permission, that is not sinful. If I want to visit family when I choose, that is not sinful. If I want to live with others on the compound but retain my autonomy over my work proceeds and give according to scripture, that is not sinful. If I want to dress in pants but wear a long shirt, that is not sinful. If I want to will an activity apart from the group, that is not sinful. So, you can see that I’m very concerned with how your community frowns upon making personal decisions that are not sinful and characterizes them as sinful. As well, the disciples clearly taught that we should give of finances according to what we can. He doesn’t say give up everything to the group. You’ve taken the book of Acts and made it say something it has never said. In the book of Acts people sold their land in order to live in community, but it never says they gave up their autonomy over their own work proceeds. Yet we do know that the Bible clearly teaches that we should give to those in need (in the body of Christ )so that when we are in need, our need would be met in reciprocation and fairness (2 Corinthians 8:11-15). Not once did Jesus or the apostles teach to hand over all you money to leaders and to let them make decisions about most of your life. Nope, that is nowhere in the Bible. So I turn again to the question of a Christian being able to live on the compound without having to conform to your own additions to the Bible. Remember the word admonishes not to add to the word and not to slander someone’s character because they don’t agree with your own man-made rules. It is vital to be able to separate what the Bible teaches and what the group teaches. And we shouldn’t take an action and immediately conclude that the intention behind the act was sinful. So easily can people be accused of sin when people start thinking they know beyond a shadow of a doubt the attitude or intention behind words or actions. That’s dangerous ground and fodder for slander. You should be careful not to equate following a program with godliness.

[@melfros7100]

@@anybenfotiamine1728 Perhaps this helps: The complete denial of self is a central component of life on the Bruderhof. As the kernel of wheat is ground in order to make the (communal) loaf, as dying to self and loosing one's life is an important gospel theme, so it is with membership at the Bhof community. They believe this is the only way that a leading by the holy spirit, mentioned by Rich, can happen. They believe that absent radical self-denial, absent a dying to self, there can be no true spirit-leading. Not everyone can embrace this kind of self-denial. I certainly cannot. People who wish to join this community, patterned in the Benedictine mode of purity, chasity, and obedience, should weigh the cost carefully. The Bhof wants nothing less....for your sake...for theirs.

[@Bruderhof]

Thanks Amy. For us community is not a matter of compulsion. It's what Jesus has called us to but he doesn't force anyone and neither do we. All of us who joined here also had our own money and strong self-will at one point which we enjoyed. But an honest reading of Jesus' teaching and love for him convinced us that we couldn't have both him and money at the same time. - Rich

[@thomasnabors8164]

I enjoy reading the writings of Charles Moore. But you are right. This chapter did come off as being a list and it shouldn't be that complicated. I think Rich provided the key at the 7:45 mark when he said, "Community should never be coercive." It should be voluntary. And Doreen made an important point at about the 8:35 mark when she said it is not easy but that we would come back to it if it were divinely inspired. That is the key, isn't it? We must be led by the Holy Spirit.

[@Bruderhof]

Thank you Thomas! Yes being led by the Spirit is key which takes humility and listening; things that don't come naturally to many of us :) Rich