Can lifetime vows get in the way of the Spirit working?

Members of the Bruderhof make lifetime promises of faithfulness, poverty, obedience, and chastity (www.bruderhof.com/foundations.... In this video, Timothy and Richard explore what those the spirit in which those commitments are made.
~~~~~
What is the Bruderhof?
The Bruderhof is an intentional Christian community of people living in radical discipleship in the spirit of the first church in Jerusalem. We gladly renounce private property and share everything in common. Our vocation is a life of service to God, each other, and you. Learn more by subscribing to our channel: → kzbin.info...
More info is at:
→ Website: www.bruderhof.com
→ Instagram: www.bruderhof.com/instagram
→ Twitter: www.bruderhof.com/twitter
→ Facebook: www.bruderhof.com/facebook

[@tb9k_]

I've enjoyed this series. The commitment seems like the scariest part of joining the community.

[@Caleb.S.Spangenberg]

The Lord brought the Bruderhof to my attention at the beginning of this year, and my spirit was filled with joy as I saw your level of Christ-likeness, and from that point I felt "called to community." Yet, I also am not called to community, in the sense that I cannot stay in one community and work solely to its benefit, but rather I am called to be an apostle, moving from place to place, and working for the benefit and unity of the Church as a whole, and for the sake of the Gospel of Christ. I desire to visit you when I graduate high school, but I cannot join you (and I could not anyway for the sake of my age). Nevertheless, am I yet able to stay at a Bruderhof every once in a while, and work for the community without pay except to eat and fellowship with them, reminding them of the Lord's teachings and notifying them of the work I would have seen God doing, as I sojourn for the sake of Christ, without necessarily becoming a member?

[@melfros7100]

I want to commend you guys for a much more seamless, more easy to follow, and flowing presentation. As a person without hearing I am totally dependent on captions. I may or may not have more to offer later, but I do want to commend you for the presentation. Well done!

[@michaelgibbs3147]

Well said TJ, you too Rich! :-) Static thinking will always push people away but what I gathered from your chat today is your community is always evolving which leaves the doors open to even more folks!

[@mikem5475]

I think some of the static thinking is attractive. A lot of the world is so ever-changing, in a direction away from the principles of the Bible, it's getting more dangerous, and uncomfortable (outside of the community)

[@danielmaxson4287]

On the topic of God making the truth clear to the community, although I agree it intuitively seems like it should be that way (after all, we're told God is not a god of confusion), it seems difficult to me to square with the existence of diverse denominations of faithful Bible-believing Christians, as God has for whatever reason clearly chosen not to make some things clear to the universal church. For example, as a Baptist myself, I'm fascinated by baptism discussions with Presbyterians since we're both firmly convicted in our respective views, and both of these views have been firmly held by faithful Christians, with scriptural basis for both sides, for centuries. That might be interesting to talk about. But I'm also interested in hearing the decision-making discussion you teased at the end.

[@melfros7100]

Daniel Maxson: I think diverse expressions of Christian faith(denominations) exist, at least in part, because “faithful Christians” have tried to rectify errors committed by the church; the institution representing something wholly other. The Reformation and Counterreformation (to which the Bruderhof lays claim) are examples of this rectifying process. You appear to place primacy on views congruent with scripture. The Bruderhof, on the other hand, claims Spirit-leading as its primary leading. Yes, the bible is important, but the leading of the Spirit more so. I think the issue is not so much “God” per se, as it is how humans experience/perceive “God”. Perceptions vary. The question is: Can diverse experiences and expressions of the holy co-exist?

[@cityhomestead4490]

-Indeed that is very good question how are desicions made. I hope you will answer that one in a next vid. -Another one is how and who is responsable for your soul care besides yourself? With who can you talk about my worries and sins and etc. -How is your organizational chart? Is there 1 leader or multiple? This question stems from stories I have heard and seen on the internet. It is often said that there is one family that is allowed and granted more than the rest. This family is biased. And leadership passes from son to son. So actually a kind of heredity. Just like a king.

[@melfros7100]

Here are potentially interesting talking points as we await the next YT video. They are meant to stimulate dialog. I offer them respectfully. 1. “…(a) lifetime commitment to a specific group 0:50 of people doesn't make sense unless you 0:54 consider yourself to be the only 1:00 true church um on Earth which 1:03 obviously we do not believe at all” The above quote begs the question how one defines “the true church on earth”. I think it fair to say that Bruderhof members believe the true church on earth stands on certain bedrock principles. They include, “community of goods” as reported in the Acts of the Apostles, no divorce, purity of conduct, poverty, a vow of loyalty to the (earthly) Bruderhof church above all other considerations, including loyalty to one’s spouse, be that person a member or not, and life-long submission and obedience to the an earthly church institution. Another characteristic is pacifism across the spectrum of human relationships. This includes not taking someone to court. How do you participants understand reference to “church on Earth?” 2. “2:48 ..we promise to seek together to be honest 2:50 with each other to constantly think 2:53 about how to be more true to the 2:55 kingdom the vision whatever..” This statement is truly appreciated! Is it possible to “honest with each other” even when we cannot find agreement? Is it possible to live together in a seeking environment even as we sometimes need to acknowledge that the Spirit may speak differently to different members? Should Unity be seen as a gift rather than as the default position? Does the Spirit always speak with one voice to every member/believer? Are there biblical examples where this did not happen? Consider this: “..there's been so much 3:03 change over the course of Bruderhof history 3:06 um and some very strongly held um 3:10 principles or practices at certain 3:12 points have been abandoned uh in favor 3:16 of other ones right um and that's not to 3:20 say those things were wrong at the time 3:22you know they may have been right.. I understand Tim and Richard to refer to earth-bound (cultural?) principles and practices, such as the dress code for women. They may be referring to the practice of shunning, which the Bruderhof claims to have abandoned. Interestingly the brothers are NOT claiming former principals or practices were seen to be wrong. I understand them to say they heard the Spirit correctly at that specific time. As time changes, so does the leading of the Spirit (??). How do you understand the apparent change in Spirit-leading? 3. “..when we make this 4:33 commitment to membership we're not 4:36 committing to the form of the Brut ho so 4:39 much as to the vision itself..” This is an interesting comment. What might they mean by “the vision”? 4. “..and it is 6:59 also part of our understanding of the 7:00 work of the holy spirit that we can 7:03 discern together what God's will is 7:05… we're all open to the leading of the 7:34 spirit that God will show the way It is my understanding the Bruderhof believes if all members are truly surrendered to each other and to God, they will hear the Spirit speaking in One, Unified way. This was an important point in the founding of the Bruderhof. Thus, when there is no Unity, something is missing. The Spirit is not being heard correctly. What is your experience with Spirit Leading? How does the quest for Unity with fellow believers work for you? Can Unity of Spirit transcend human agreement?

[@marksouthern920]

Well said .God bless you 😊🙏

[@hollandgreen7555]

I have heard many times that "God is unchanging" as an argument to imply that church should not change, dress should not change, traditions should not change, hairstyles should not change etc. The problem with the argument is that while God may well be unchanging, that does not mean that God is static and not dynamic. And certainly a person's understanding of God and God's will changes over that person's lifetime. There definitely needs to be a commitment to follow through regardless of change. A quaker lady once told me that she was divorce because she was ok with the idea of loving a person for a while and then moving on and not loving them anymore. I understand that oxytocin flows and wanes and flows and wanes. That does not mean that one cannot manifest harmony and deliberately produce feelings of love of varying degrees, trust, respect, commitment and attachment and so on. Our society is filled with people that have all kinds of abandonment issues because of broken homes, because there is lots of money and people don't need each other...I recently read that the US has one of the most narcissistic societies-- a society where the needs of the individual are greater than the needs of the many. Anyway sorry for going on a rant.

[@mikem5475]

I think being dynamic, in a good direction, is good, but the Bible cannot be re-written, so eventually you arrive on certain non-negotiables of values. Just reading the Bible makes one aware of the everlasting wisdom. Curious of your thoughts on this, and if maybe you have seen divorce for the wrong reasons

[@melfros7100]

@@mikem5475 "Curious of your thoughts on this, and if maybe you have seen divorce for the wrong reasons" Q: What do you consider to be the *right reasons* to permit divorce? The N. Testament teachings of Jesus- the Matthian exception clause in mind, appears to set an immutable standard: Divorce is contrary to the divine purpose for marriage. You affirm "the bible cannot be re-written." How then can there be, as you say, a change of views? One possible way forward is to look for the metaphorical meaning behind the divorce prohibition. Jesus taught that ALL human relationships are sacred. This being the case, the question is not should one/should one not divorce. Rather, it becomes a question of counting the cost. Divorce affects more than just the couple involved. There are divorced members on the Bruderhof. The question the Bruderhof faces is whether it is permissible for divorced members to remarry WHILE the former spouse is alive.

[@mikem5475]

@@melfros7100 I'm confused. Do you have any interpretation of the Bible verses on divorce? I know that divorce is not biblical, except in cases of adultery, and if I recall correctly that rule was only made because our hearts were hardened. I just don't think divorce should ever happen, but adultery shouldn't ever happen either. I think society plays a big role in what does happen

[@melfros7100]

@@mikem5475 First, please know that I am writing from a post-Christian perspective. I no longer identify as Christian. Never the less, I take the teachings of Jesus seriously as I am able. I believe what Christians refer to as the Spirit of God resides in EVERY human heart. Some know this and act on it, and others know it but fail to act. My intention is not to give you my biblical interpretation regarding divorce. Rather, I am trying to make clear my understanding of the Bruderhof's current bedrock assertion that divorce is contrary to the will of God. Likewise, holding private property is contrary to the will of God. One has to give up ALL in order to receive the blessings of God, as Jesus taught and the brothers/sisters of the Bruderhof have repeatedly made clear in many YT videos and books. Jesus explained that, although Moses made an allowance for divorce because human hearts were hardened, divorce was not the *Original Intent* of God. Bruderhof founder, Eberhard Arnold, made clear that in order to understand God's *True Will*, in order to grasp the *True Nature* of God, one must go back to the Beginning... to *Original Intent*, so to speak. The Bruderhof's current (as well as historical) view is that adultery can be repented of and forgiven. Every evil can be forgiven, and there can be 490 new beginnings. Adultery need not automatically trigger divorce. Perhaps I am misunderstanding but your last sentence suggests society has a say in what happens in cases of adultery. The Bruderhof I know would disagree! Please understand that I am not giving you my personal view on the subject. I am, in context, trying to explaining what I believe the Bhof position to be. Speaking for myself, divorce and remarriage can happen...but....Jesus would have us consider the potentially harmful fallout to children of divorce, extended family, the church...the nation. Hopefully my reply sheds light. If not, ask some more. It's this kind of give-and-take that makes this channel worth participating in.

[@mikem5475]

@@melfros7100 that clears things up. Thank you. I meant to say, society seems to influence what happens in marriage, and whether there's divorce, and why it happens. I think environment is almost everything, when it comes to how things manifest and what people end up doing.

[@markdeduke606]

Just a point of observation here , your job at some point takes you to a place where your fellowship doesn’t exist. With this vow mandate , do you then have to quit your job which provides securely for your family. And I don’t read any where in scripture where God states that you as one of God’s saints has to make a life long mandatory commitment to a certain denomination/ group of believers!

[@melfros7100]

You quit your job and dispose of your possessions before you become a member. Your new job will be complete and life-long submission to the will of God as experienced by all members of the Hof. As Jesus is recorded to have said, you need to lose your life in order to find it.

[@markdeduke606]

@@melfros7100 as one of God’s saints that simply is not going to happen, and this smacks and smells cultish

[@melfros7100]

My point is to inform you of the details, and I believe the Bruderhof wants all seekers to be fully aware of what.membership entails

[@mikem5475]

​@@markdeduke606I'm curious what you mean or who you mean by as one of God's saints, and what part is not going to happen

[@edwardsolecki6036]

Unfortunately instead of addressing my biblical arguments against vows, (indicated in your original post) you are just justifying your unscriptual practice... Bereans community was 'dynamic' because they "examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true" Act.17.11. This practice allows change! Bruderhof's community "thinking together how to be more true" is not dynamic, is just patting yourself on the back. Is the result of thinking that 'what we know is sufficient for eternal life, there is nothing more to seek for in the Scripture. Community is our ticket. Reformation was ended when our fathers discovered the truth'. I am not against community living. I visited Bruderhof with my family with the intention of joining but I decided not to because one of your 'abandoned practice' was "examining the Scriptures". By doing so you abandoned the only hope of spiritual progress, as being "partakers of God's nature" can only be attained by "epignosis" 2Prt.1:1-3 as "everything we need for a godly life can only be achieved through our knowledge of him". Communal living is just the small part of it. Your minuscule changes to the dress code or timetable is just insignificant. You are static. "Until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Eph.4:13 until then we need to feed our spirit with "unpolluted spiritual food that is Word of God; "Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation," 1 Peter 2:2 I wont even mention "the solid food". Vows as well as keeping traditions are not "worshiping Father in Spirit and in Truth", they are just distractions, THEY ARE EVIDENCE OF YOUR SPIRITUAL LEVEL! Listen to Paul's warning - "Be careful that nobody spoils your faith through intellectualism or high-sounding nonsense. Such stuff is at best founded on men’s ideas of the nature of the world and disregards Christ! Col.2:8. Only children need "pinky promise", mature man's yes, means yes! That is the reason I am waiting until you are "open to the lead of Holy Spirit". You are claiming that but so far it is not observable!

[@mikem5475]

I'm nearly certain that their vows are just affirmations of yes or no to some specific and important questions about intent and future plans for life, and to hold people accountable for making the decision to join and give their word in certain agreement to the decision. Affirming an intent and affirming that you never plan on changing that intent is not an oath. Swearing on someone's grave or making an oath with life, limb, God's name, or something else in jeopardy other than your trustworthiness, would be not Biblical, and would be an oath. If it can't be affirmed with a simple yes or no, then it is not Biblical. Matthew 5:33-37 ESV / “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.’ But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything more than this comes from evil.

[@edwardsolecki6036]

@@mikem5475 If you check in English Dictionary vows, agreements, affirmations, oaths, swearing (and plenty more) they all are synonyms, holding that same meaning. So, there is no need to "split the hair". The issue in our discussion is not the object of our vows, but the vows itself. I though we are not analyzing Bruderhof's vows, but "Are the vows biblical"? Bruderhof's vows are just an example. When Jesus is saying "But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all" means not vows of any kind. Some can treat this as a commandment, but some can wish to understand the reason behind it, and that is what I just expressed in my original comment. Don't forget that Jesus is introducing a "New Covenant" that is addressed to 'hairs' not 'slaves'; but "as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate." Gal.4;1 . What we obey shows who we are.

[@mikem5475]

@@edwardsolecki6036 there is no way that an affirmation, vows, and swearing can all be seemingly equivalent to an oath just because they are synonyms. Respectfully brother I say that we agree to disagree. I love looking at the etymology of words in the Bible because it can reveal the precise meaning. Precision seems dire, especially on something as important as the validity of an element of your life's calling, or the critique of someone else's. I feel more research is due before any conclusions

[@edwardsolecki6036]

@@mikem5475 You may be right, I am not expert of English language but I understand the Scripture. By focusing on this small detail that is etymology, you are in a danger of missing the whole point of this discussion that is spiritual maturity and its requirements. Using biblical terminology "by straining the mosquito you may swallow a camel". I will appreciate your comments on the rest of my post if you don't mind.

[@mikem5475]

@@edwardsolecki6036 I'm gonna have to come back later, I read it a few times and didn't comprehend. My apologies

[@jazzznake]

Who else edges to these videos