Complex Characters vs. Weakness: Self-Reflection, Societal Expectations and Vulnerability in Fantasy

[@Shonras]

I agree with most of your takes! In my fantasy novels, I try to show vulnerability and emotions in my male characters, knowing that it's quite rare. I however think this is evolving in the right way. One of the best examples is Fitz in the three trilogies by Robin Hobb. He's a strong assassin but he also suffers a lot and never hesitates to show his vulnerability. Yet some people claimed that 'they saw he was written by a woman', which was a completely sexist remark in my opinion. Now it's becoming more common and I hope it'll continue! (And I'm also glad to follow strong women without them hiding their emotions as strong men also do...)

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Oh you write novels? So cool! I love Robin Hobb and her characters! That statement is indeed weird...smells of male readers looking down on Fitz... There is one thing I have been pondering for a while though: I feel like with female authors there is often a certain layer, or an emotional connection that I tend to not have when reading male authors. I can not really put into words what I mean by this, maybe it's that a woman can "get me" in a way that a man can't. I notice this with characters, too. It's not something objective or about what is better or worse, just a personal feeling

[@QuickJen]

“Vulnerability is not a female trait. It is a human trait.” This is true of all traits, though many are more accepted or demonstrated in one gender or the other. Such a wonderful, thought-provoking and unique addition to the discussion of fantasy characters. Thank you!!! ❤️❤️❤️

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you Jen! You are to blame for this ^^

[@QuickJen]

@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn I’ll take it with pride, though you have taken this subject far beyond the conversation that sparked it!

[@BookswithBrittany]

I absolutely loved this discussion and what you had to say about it. As an empath I feel the world continues to try to harden me. I related to this very much. I hope you don’t mind I shared it!

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you so much (and also for sharing), I'm glad you enjoyed it! Yes, I feel you! I often feel like the world is forcing me to behave in a way that is not ME. As if there is something wrong with me but if I don't manage to be 'hard' enogh for our society, I'm the one who pays the price...

[@lucianaetrigan]

The Soldier Son trilogy by Robin Hobb came instantly to my mind. And also Auri In “The Slow Regard of Silent Things” By Rothfuss. Wonderful thoughts Counsellor!

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

I haven't read the Soldier Son trilogy yet (but the whole Realm of the Elderlings) but Auri is a good example! There is this one scene, not sure if it's in Name of the Wind or Wise Man's Fear when Kvothe has a breakdown and lies in his room crying and then Auri appears and comforts him. She does not judge, she is simply there, and you feel that in this very moment, she empathizes with his pain 100%. There is something about that scene I found incredibly moving. And it's also a hint that she must have been through some stuff.

[@dillon1037]

I haven't read Kingkiller but I checked out Slow Regard and it felt like one of the best representations of OCD I've seen in any media. Signed, A Dude with OCD.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

@@dillon1037 I enjoyed Kingkiller a lot, actually, but it's been a while since I read it. OCD is hell...so keep fighting!

[@liviathemalazanpotatonoob5014]

Thank you for this wonderful video! I loved your line about vulnerability being a human trait, not just female. This should be heard by more people!

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you Livia! The sad thing is that a future in which we won't have to hide in our protective shells anymore will probably stay a dream. I know that I personally am scared to open my shell, even though I would not jump at somebody else doing so. The fear remains. Maybe this is also what is hindering us?

[@darkportents9835]

"So often, a strong female character is basically just a guy with breasts." I once made this criticism until I realized how deeply offended it makes women who themselves feel like this should be a perfectly acceptable way to be a woman and that that is who they feel they are or could be described by. My friend yelled at me for denying that womanhood included this as a valid representation, and that this is a valid way to write women characters.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

That's interesting! I personally don't see this statement as an exclusion. Who am I to tell other women how they should feel or in which way they wish to be represented? There's just more to female strength than "kicking butts while being being a silent and grumpy warrior" (oversimplifying here, of course, but I think you'll know what I mean)

[@darkportents9835]

@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn On that I agree. It may have been the context or way in which I conveyed the criticism. I'm certainly not personally saying you are being exclusionary. more like just saying this kind of comment got me in trouble and it hit a nerve for some of my women friends that's all.

[@Shonras]

Thanks for exactly pointing the reason why I don't like this sentence! I also prefer a more inclusionary point of view than exclusionary :)

[@denise-ew9to]

This is a great point. And I’m guilty of this. I think going forward I’ll have to be more mindful when discussing these types of characters so that it doesn’t become exclusionary. My criticism when I’ve used this short hand has usually been more regarding that a lot of these female characters are very one dimensional - physically strong and brave and sometimes witty/aggressive. With no depth. And while there are even more male characters that are one dimensional in this way - that fact that the female characters are fewer means that they get more attention. And since they are “my” representation as a woman, I care more about them being worthwhile since there are so few. Lately, I’ve stopped criticizing female characters on the basis of me finding them badly written, unless I feel that the portrayal is actively harmful. Mostly due to the fact that I feel we need to get to a certain level of mass in the number of characters before more nitpicking can bring the characterization forward. We’re not doing ourselves any favors if we are so critical of authors (not always stellar) attempts that they decide they’d rather be criticized for lack of female character than female characters that hit the mark. Token characters are not fun. To a certain degree it is a numbers game.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

@@denise-ew9to That's an interesting point! And yes, if the only female main character is one-dimensional, it's more noticeable than if one of 4 male characters is one-dimensional, especially since there tends to be a lot of attention paid to any sort of diverse characters.

[@fantasticphilosophy181]

Great video! I actually like it when there's being made fun of "weaknesses", because it can work as a laughing-mirror. For me humor helps coping with things, f.i. the very depressed Marvin from the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, or the socially akward Murderbot.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you! Yes, humor can certainly help in some cases, it just depends in tue circumstances.

[@Johanna_reads]

Wonderful video! Female strength doesn't have to be snarky or silent, and I am very moved when male characters have vulnerable moments. I also felt compassion for Felisin and appreciate that her journey offers a realistic portrayal of trauma. Wonderful call for empathy and self-reflection at the end!

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you! I've been giving a lot of thought to how literature reflects the current state of society, and (the lack of) male weakness is one of the best indicators of how far we still have to go.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

Beautiful thoughts on vulnerability, Counsellor! I also deeply appreciate your analysis of gender in fantasy in terms of vulnerability. Thank you for this eloquent plea for the acknowledgment of vulnerability and weakness in fantasy characters. As you point out, such acknowledgment is a path to compassion.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you! Malazan has been giving me so much food for thought in that area, and the discussions here on YT are a motivation to get my thoughts out there.

[@OneMoreMeme_INeedYou]

Very, very important and well put together message that the world needs to hear, thank you for this. Malazan spoilers: That compassionate display of vulnerability in Erikson’s writing of Felisin meant so much to me; I was in a dark period of my life when first reading DG. “Finding strength in vulnerability” also really resonates with me. It’s why Tavore’s arc (where after fighting it for so long within herself, this strength is finally realized in a beautiful embrace at the end of tCG) has effected me so profoundly.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

One thing I have been really noticing in Malazan is how often male characters cry, and I love it. Even hardened veterans will show tears, and they often do so when they are touched by somebody else's fate. It shows that showing emotions is not a sign of weakness, and that feeling for others is a great trait to have. I'm approaching the end of TCG and I appreciate Tavore more and more!

[@denise-ew9to]

This is a very interesting topic, and I am quite amazed how much has happened with the representation of specifically mental illness/weakness in the last decade. It’s going to be very interesting when these topics work their way into more mainstream genre literature.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Yes, absolutely! It's a shame that there is still such a stigma in many areas concerning mental health!

[@SnakeAndTurtleQigong]

Thank you so much for sharing this! 💙

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

❤

[@jona2486]

Thanks so much for making this. I don't really have anything to add to the discussion, but I enjoy listening and learning from you, and I just wanted to let you know your videos are appreciated!

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you! Knowing that some people out there take time out of their day to listen to me talking is mind-boggling, so getting comments like these is the best thing ever!

[@readingreignbro5680]

I enjoy what your channel offers. I'll keep some of these questions in mind as I explore the fantasy (and sci fi) genre. I can't wait for more videos like this. They inspire me to think more critically about what I'm absorbing. Cheers.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you! That's awesome to hear!

[@RoxanaMagdaD]

This was beautiful! I'd love more essays like this one :)

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Thank you Rox!

[@denise-ew9to]

I wonder a little about the bad-ass woman trope (I think it’s fair to say that it’s become a trope by now). When I was a kid I loved it! It was a middle finger to the wider world that said that girls were always weaker, always a less than. Now I more and more find that such a character has to be exceedingly well written for me not to lose interest. I don’t know if this is because I’m in a different point in my life (40s, mother) and can appreciate the strength in characteristics and traits that are more traditionally “female” or if it is because the warrior woman character is more common/I’ve read more such depictions.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Hm, spontaneously I'd say that the over-use of that trope might definitely be part of the problem. No trope is inherently bad, and seeing a woman kick ass can be cool. However, if there's nothing more to her than physical or magical power, it not only gets boring quickly, it's also not empowering imo. Suddenly having great power is unrealistic for me, and even if I had it, it would not solve my everyday problems. I believe the way in which characters solve 'smaller' problems is where their true strength is able to shine. And yes, I have also come to appreciate more 'feminine' traits more than I did as a teenager!

[@dillon1037]

Maybe it's because I reread The Magicians at the same time as Deadhouse Gates but Felisin and Quentin felt like two peas in a pod. They were also both pretty relatable as someone with depression and a lot of self loathing.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Do you mean the Magicians by Lev Grossman? I haven't read that, so I can't compare...

[@dillon1037]

@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn aha, yeah. Quentin is the protagonist of the book and a case study in depression that manifests as bitterness and self loathing most of the time. His inner monologue felt a lot like Felisin's.

[@darkportents9835]

Your video made me think so that's at least one. you succeeded. ❤️

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Yay! ❤

[@sethulakovic3722]

A quick question, I will pose it to other Malaztubers. What author, living or dead, would you like to see let loose in the Malaz world and what would you like them to tackle?

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Hm...I think a slow character study by Robin Hobb would be really awesome. Maybe a bit of a cliche answer given her popularity though. I would not want anybody to write an epic story in the Malazan world because you can't stop what Erikson has done with it already. Also interesting would be to have somebody like Kameron Hurley take the gender topic to an extreme. Another spontaneous thought I'm having is that it would be so much fun to have Kruppe as the main protagonist in an Agatha Christie mystery, I'd definitely read that (and yes, I love me a good ol' british crime novel)

[@darkportents9835]

Do you think that Jezal Dan Luther represents the kind of weakness that isn't badass, that is scared of the bad guy and cowers and whines? 😂 but readers often hate him. I don't, though.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Maybe partly yes. Abercrombie is great at writing unlikeable characters we somehow end up loving. I found Jezal's cowering kind of relatable. I'm not brave and badass either, so it's refreshing to see this represented in a character. However, Jezal is also kind of an arrogant a*hole, so in combination that might lead to readers hating him I guess

[@darkportents9835]

@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn I'm pretty sure I'd be absolutely terrified in the situations that Jezal cowered in too.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

@@darkportents9835 Yes! It's easy to say "don't be such a wimp" when you're safely snuggled up in bed while reading lol

[@darkportents9835]

@@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn I used to be involved with a street gang (nothing like guns or running drugs just dumb organized thuggery stuff but still terrifying for my small wimpy self to be involved in) and if I couldn't stand up to the guy who ran that outfit, who is essentially just a big ox of a man with hands the size of my head and the willingness to do permanent damage to anyone's face with violence, how exactly am I going to stand up to a Wizard that can explode me from the inside with a thought and a gesture?

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

@@darkportents9835 Yes! Actually that presents us with another interesting point: fantasy characters are often stronger than normal people, they are great fighters or have access to magic. So in some ways this gives you an advantage in terms of bravery. That being said, physical or magical abilities are only one side of the coin, the mental strength to handle the responsibility is the other. Imo it gets interesting if a character behaves irresponsibly or is not able to cope with power. And of course, using power is a choice, too, and a character's personality comes in here as well. Actually, the character of Nimander I've been talking about is an example of this ^^

[@EricMcLuen]

Out of curiosity, have you read the Broken Empire or just going off Jorg's reputation? I personally lived the books. Karen Miller's Godspeaker trilogy's main character is essentially a female Jorg. While the setting was interesting, I found the author's choice of dialogue annoying and the main character too cardboard. But Mark Lawrence like Erickadon has the ability to write a broad variety of believable characters of both sexes across the morality grayscale. Prince of Thorns vs. Prince of Fools for example. Left Hand of Darkness also plays havoc with gender roles as the natives switch and can be both the father and mother to their children. Random thought, is it possible for an author to completely delete the sex of the main character from a story and if so, how would that affect your reading experience? I don't mean some surprise reveal at the end, but rather just have it completely missing. But good thoughts to discuss.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

Yes, I have read Broken empire. I wouldn't feel comfortable including books in a discussion that I haven't read xD I haven't read the Godspeaker trilogy but I started one if her other series a while ago, but dnf'd it. I enjoyed Left Hand of Darkness! Definitely an interesting take on gender! Kameron Hurley is also worth checking out in that regard (even though I've only read one of her books, I have to admit) That's a really interesting concept! It would be interesting if it's possible to keep that character completely neutral or if internalized conceptions about gender would invariably color how the readers would view the character's (possible) gender.

[@BrightandBookish]

Just wanted to point out that sex and gender are different things. If you are talking about taking away both sex and gender, Martha Wells has removed them from the character of Murderbot in the Murderbot Diaries series. Murderbot is an AI construct so some might argue not human (I disagree, but that's a different discussion). Having no markers of sex or gender made for a very interesting reading experience for me. My first read through I thought of Murderbot as masculine it wasn't until I made my review video that I realized this was based on my cultural associations of protectors being male. In the second book Murderbot goes by the name Eden which changed my perception when I thought of Eden I thought of a more feminine character. I think Martha Wells' exploration of gender is brilliant. For human characters, there are also countless modern works that include non-binary characters that don't fit into the categories of man or woman. Recently I have read Persephone Station which has a non-binary main character and Upright Women Wanted that also has a non-binary character who is forced to take on womanly characteristics to not be killed in the society where they exist.

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

@@BrightandBookish Yes, you are right! I automatically assumed there would be hints about neither sex nor gender in the case Eric suggested, but I maybe should have stated that, so thanks for pointing out the differentiation! I actually just saw a few days ago that my library has the first Murderbot book now, so I will definitely check it out! Martha Wells has been on my radar for a while anyway. I haven't read a lot of Sff with nobinary characters so far, so that's definitely something I need to catch up on!

[@EricMcLuen]

@@BrightandBookish I am not talking about non-binary or your later examples where authors play with roles as you are still applying a label. I am talking about the complete absence of any descriptor or hint. I also don't would not include artificial constructs to this discussion.

[@7-MinuteLectures]

👀👀👀👀👀

[@CounsellorofMoonsSpawn]

You found your way to Malaztube surprisingly quickly, sir! 👀