Confession in the Church of England at St Mary's Bourne Street

[@Austin8thGenTexan]

In our small East Texas Episcopal Church it happens during Lent and Advent. The priest sits inside the altar rail with his back to it and you kneel down and talk to his back. There's also the option of face-to-face confession but there is no box in our Anglo Catholic parish...

[@hereticatious]

My first thought was - has any Bart Simpson affixed a "Kick Me" sign while in confession (you could obtain absolution simultaneously)?

[@brjimbo1]

I'm an Anglican Franciscan brother (26 years life professed). I give my confession twice per year per my Rule.

[@hereticatious]

I finally had a moment to look at this properly here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Saint_Francis . I had no idea such a thing existed as an Anglican Franciscan. Thanks for telling me about them.

[@lauraduffy9055]

@@hereticatious I didn't know either. Thank you for the link!

[@lauraduffy9055]

Brother, I realize this is a personal question and of course have no expectation that you will answer, but (just in case... ;-) ....do you do this twice a year because you feel obligated, or does the timing work for you?

[@timbobsm]

A few comments from a Catholic: In my parish the availability for receiving the sacrament is made every Sunday before the mass and on special days through out the year. Though Catholics are required to receive the sacrament once a year. I would say that most of the parishioners receive it many times. My confessions are quite boring; yet protestants who do not have this sacrament do not realize the liberation one feels once the confession is completed. I am also reminded of what Dr Scott Hahn, a Catholic theologian and a convert said about his early confessions. He stated that when he first became Catholic, he went to confession every two weeks. After several month of this schedule he told his confessor, " I seem to be confessing the same sins over and over again," His confessor replied, " What? You want new sins?" Now that is funny. One last thing: I do not know what your attendance is for confession, I would think it might increase if where the penitent kneels was less open. In most Catholic Parishes, the confessional is quite closed and offering more privacy. Prayers for you and your ministry!

[@hereticatious]

That's a good observation I hadn't thought about - you definitely couldn't hide you were doing it.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

I'm a Catholic and have to pull you up on one important theological point. As far as I can tell, CoE consider Confession to be Sacramental Rite and not a Sacrament like Baptism or the Eucharist. A Sacramental Rite, they say, are important and can be a means of God conveying grace, they are not seen as necessary for salvation, to the level that Baptism and the Eucharist are necessary. There's more that I could say about the interplay between Confession and Eucharist making the CoE view untenable, but out of respect for my CoE brethren, I will restrain myself.

[@DickyMorin]

I enjoyed the humor and spirituality of the Anglican priest. I noticed the church used crucifixes and statues of the saints and even afixed the stations of the cross to the walls. These artworks, called sacramentals, can aid a person in his attitude and spirituality. All in all, it was an enjoyable film.

[@thorpsewinglessons5913]

Userds8no1 agree with you.

[@GregCooper-ll4ps]

If the Anglican church had more like this priest, I wouldn't be so firmly on the road to Rome as i am now

[@lauraduffy9055]

Maybe this is your time to come back. It's not about the man, it's about our faith and belief system. I incorporate Buddhist teachings in my life, but I am grounded as a Judeo-Christian, and I relate best to my God through the guidance and ways of our church. They bring me peace.

[@eloquentlight]

This was wonderful, we offer confession in our Anglo Catholic Episcopal parish, what a wonderful exploration of why, and the differences of the practice in the Anglican communion from our friends in the Roman Catholic church. New subscriber here!

[@ThatchyThrone]

When I was in the RCC, confession was something I did regularly, due to scruples. I didn't think I would miss it, but I feel when done right, the graces can be beneficial for spiritual growth.

[@Simpaulme]

Carl Jung said that if people still had faith in confession, there would be less need for psychotherapists.

[@hereticatious]

It occupies a very similar place. If we'd have had longer - I might have dug into the differences (the implied judgement, for example)

[@lauraduffy9055]

I'm a member of the Episcopal Church in the US, and our private confession is at the altar rail. I don't understand the need for secrecy for the penitential rite in the C of E.

[@hereticatious]

Interestingly - at Farm Street Catholic Church they take confession in an open chapel in the church - there is a clear glazed door and many clear windows in the area. When I asked Fr Dominic about it he said "well, we shut the door". See the video here kzbin.info/www/bejne/pKTEq2xsnruqgK8

[@thorpsewinglessons5913]

This priest is truthful to our faith, thank goodness. Beautiful Church and teachings of Christian Values. More and more are returning to our faith. Amen. 🕊️✝️🙏🇬🇧🕯️

[@hereticatious]

Not what I'm trying to do - but best of luck :-)

[@CarlStJohn-x9w]

This priest should be going to Rome ❤

[@hereticatious]

I think he likes Pimlico

[@williamfunk656]

He understands theology better than many of his peers or his "betters".

[@hereticatious]

He was great on (and off) camera - I can't speak about his theological qualifications - but he certainly seemed to know what he was talking about.

[@josephnelson9739]

Lutheran Protestants have always continued confession and absolution

[@hereticatious]

Interesting - I didn't see any confessionals at the Norwegian church kzbin.info/www/bejne/eWTRq2dnabh-rKc - perhaps I should have asked?

[@josephnelson9739]

Lutherans normally do not use the actual boxes but do confession face to face which is the much more ancient practice

[@sarawoods1450]

Good interview and questions. Understand more why the practice but still hesitant to confess unless in complete anonymity. I’d drop by if I could possibly

[@hereticatious]

Yes - it does tempt you to try it out. But - just imagine how weird it would have been to end the interview that way (I did think about it).

[@brucealanwilson4121]

I once heard a priest say, "They talk about original sins, but people keep confessing the same ones over & over again."

[@hereticatious]

I wonder if some take it as a challenge?

[@carriageofnoreturn.1881]

Church of England on Confession: "None must; all may: some should".

[@briandelaney9710]

Most don’t

[@thomism1016]

@@carriageofnoreturn.1881 Are you kidding me?🤔 Is this an actual doctrine of the C of E? Typically nebulous and able to be interpreted subjectively leaving ones eternal soul in peril ☹️🙆🏽‍♂️😱

[@hereticatious]

Confession doesn't appeal to me as much as hearing some.

[@williamofdallas]

That comment about the tardis confessional box made my day haha

[@hereticatious]

You are my people - I am now humming the theme music.

[@trosenthal3711]

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. John 20:23

[@hereticatious]

As I say - oddly ambiguous turn of phrase (see elsewhere in the comments).

[@opencurtin]

The church looks Catholic to me I didn’t think COE allowed statues and the stations of the cross!

[@hereticatious]

COE allow (nearly) everything it seems. Stations more common than not (in my non statistically significant sample). I need to get in more Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches to see how much variety I find there.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

CoE was once in full communion with the Catholic Church, it shouldn't be surprising to see echoes of that shared history reverberating forward in time.

[@johnmartin4650]

Also there’s the Stations of the Cross…….!

[@johnmcgrath6192]

As a Catholic boy in the 2nd grade I decided there was no point tio Confession . I was not going to make up sins. And that was that, never again. My parents were devout but believed in the primacy of conscience in regard to church doctrines and practices and the advice/teachings of clergy, even the pope. Both parents were born and raised in Ireland where freedom of conscience among Catholics was far more prevalkent than is commonly believed. One of my aunts by marrisage wass the chief altar server in her parish, this in the early 20th century. The prirest made it clear that he considered the church's spiritual distinctioon between men and women to be irrational, historically dubious, and not justified by Scripture. The congregation weas OK wwith that. My aunt was the best at Latin (her mother was fkluent in Latijn from the gedhge school tradition).

[@hereticatious]

As an atheist - I find confession so alien - but I'll say that Fr Sam demystified it beautifully.

[@fleuromeara4924]

Was St.Mary's Bourne St. once a Roman Catholic Church ? If so, were those the original confessionals ?

[@Basaljet]

Bourne Street was always an Anglican Church from the time of The Victorian "Anglo-Catholic" revival and in the wake of the Oxford movement. Newman and so many of his companions realised that the claim was untenable and unwelcome within the national established church. "Anglo Catholicism" was born at a contemporary moment with (Roman) "Catholic Emancipation". The same church building constructors and suppliers would have supplied the fixtures and fittings for this church. Newman set in motion a procession of conversions from the established church to the Catholic Church that continues to this day. Sad that Bourne Street which is an isolated island of sacramental practice in the Roman style is not now part of the "Ordinariate" which would make more sense but the building would have to remain a vexatious property belonging to the Diocese of London. Sadly it is little more now than a nostalgic piece of Sacramental (Roman Styled) congregationalism. Sacramental confession was provided for in the 1662 book of Common Prayer in the "Visitation of the sick" but this is in extremis. ¶ Here shall the sick person be moved to make a speciall confession of his sins, if he feel his conscience troubled with any weighty matter. After which confession, the Priest shall absolve him, (if he humbly and heartily desire it) after this sort. Our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath left power to his Church to absolve all sinners, who truly repent, and believe in him, of his great mercy forgive thee thine offences; And by his Authority committed to mee, I absolve thee from all thy sins, In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Ghost. Amen. With the advent of the ASB in 1980 the rite of absolution was removed mainly thanks to the vociferous protests of Bishop Colin Buchanan who insisted that it had no part in the protestant tradition. A form of "Ministry to the sick" was published separately but without the Authority of being endorsed by "The Church". The newer rites of the CofE appear to be open ended and less clear about "Auricular Confession" and the Words of Absolution "I absolve thee" but the reality is that the 39 Articles deny that this is a "Sacrament" when it appears to be specifically endorsed by the words of Christ in John 20.

[@hereticatious]

Hi @Basaljet - great to know you're watching. I don't think anyone I met at Bourne Street was sad about anything. We had great laugh. The stuff about Bishop Colin Buchanan is interesting. His wikipedia page talks a lot about what he did and where he did it - but no real summary of what he thought. Is there a film in this?

[@stephanottawa7890]

It is sad that the Anglo-Catholics did not adopt the Orthodox practise. Our priest does not say "I absolve thee", but proclaims the forgiveness of God. A different emphasis, but a good one.

[@jordandraper2284]

This is the wording we use in the Book of Common Prayer (Canada): The Priest may first say: THE Lord be in thy heart and on thy lips, that thou mayest truly confess thy sins to Almighty God. Then the Penitent shall say: I CONFESS to God that I have sinned in thought, word, and deed, by my own fault. And especially … I pray to God to forgive me all my sins for the sake of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Amen. Then the Priest shall say: Let us pray. O MOST merciful God, who, according to the multitude of thy mercies, dost so put away the sins of those who truly repent, that thou rememberest them no more: Look upon this thy servant, who most earnestly desireth pardon and forgiveness. And forasmuch as he putteth his full trust only in thy mercy, impute not unto him his former sins, but strengthen him with thy blessed Spirit; and whenever thou art pleased to take him hence, take him into thine everlasting favour; through the merits of thy most dearly beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. After which the Priest shall absolve him (if he humbly and heartily desire it) after this sort: OUR Lord Jesus Christ, who hath left power to his Church to absolve all sinners who truly repent and believe in him: Of his great mercy forgive thee thine offences. And by his authority committed to me, I absolve thee from all thy sins, In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

[@jordandraper2284]

These are the words we use in the Book of Common Prayer (Canada): The Priest may first say: THE Lord be in thy heart and on thy lips, that thou mayest truly confess thy sins to Almighty God. Then the Penitent shall say: I CONFESS to God that I have sinned in thought, word, and deed, by my own fault. And especially … I pray to God to forgive me all my sins for the sake of Jesus Christ our Saviour. Amen. Then the Priest shall say: Let us pray. O MOST merciful God, who, according to the multitude of thy mercies, dost so put away the sins of those who truly repent, that thou rememberest them no more: Look upon this thy servant, who most earnestly desireth pardon and forgiveness. And forasmuch as he putteth his full trust only in thy mercy, impute not unto him his former sins, but strengthen him with thy blessed Spirit; and whenever thou art pleased to take him hence, take him into thine everlasting favour; through the merits of thy most dearly beloved Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen. After which the Priest shall absolve him (if he humbly and heartily desire it) after this sort: OUR Lord Jesus Christ, who hath left power to his Church to absolve all sinners who truly repent and believe in him: Of his great mercy forgive thee thine offences. And by his authority committed to me, I absolve thee from all thy sins, In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

[@Simpaulme]

Barbara Pym's church from 'Excellent Women'

[@hereticatious]

Excellent suggestion - I started reading this on the internet archive (though it seemed oddly resistant to me reading it all). Is Bourne street the model or is it explicitly mentioned?

[@Simpaulme]

@@hereticatious barbara-pym.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/FBF20_Churches.pdf Don't mind me - apparently the model was St Gabriel's, Warwick Square 🥴

[@alfredroyal3473]

Should move to the RCs

[@hereticatious]

I like the Beatles myself.

[@o165o]

Playing church

[@hereticatious]

I LOVE play - don't you?

[@alfredroyal3473]

If you’re gonna do that just be yourselves and swim the Tiber and join Rome.

[@hereticatious]

The Tiber in October - Brrrrrr!

[@thomism1016]

One of the so-called ‘reformers’ traditions of men🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️🤷🏽‍♂️: John 20:21-23. 21 Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." THE VERY WORDS OF CHRIST HIMSELF 😱😱😱😱

[@hereticatious]

Strangely ambiguous though - aren't they (see my other comment).

[@thomism1016]

@@hereticatious Friend, what’s ambiguous and to which other comment do you refer? 🤔

[@hereticatious]

@@thomism1016 see my conversation with @lynncw9202 - the ambiguity is with the word retain "hose soever sins ye retain, they are retained." - this could mean "If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." - or it could mean the priest take on the burden of the unforgiven sin (which may sound mad until you recognise that's what Jesus was supposed to do about original sin). Its such a weird way of saying it - but most of the translations take it as "retained"

[@christopher3386]

Why don't you just become Roman Catholics? The cleric (minister) isn't giving forgiveness, God is. You're forgetting that we are Protestants, even so-called "Anglo-Catholics".

[@hereticatious]

Other options exist.

[@Russ1875]

Catholics also believe that it is God that forgives sins in the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession). The priest acts in “Persona Christi”.

[@bwilliamleo7872]

In the 1662 BCP, the Abosulution for the private confession of the sick reads: 'OUR Lord Jesus Christ, who hath left power to his Church to absolve all sinners who truly repent and believe in him, of his great mercy forgive thee thine offences: And by his authority committed to me, I absolve thee from all thy sins, In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.' The Church of England and the Lutheran Churches never abolished private confession, it is still preserved for those who need it (as one of the BCP's long extortations teaches), although they are not generally compulsory for every one.

[@AS-np3yq]

Is this even legit? Confessions are just legit in catholic church and orthodox i think.

[@lynncw9202]

The priest does not forgive sins. God forgives the sins through the priest. " Jesus said,' Peter you are the Rock and whose sins you forgive are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained!" Paraphrasing!! Jesus gave the apostles this authority and passed it down through the ages!!

[@hereticatious]

That quote seemed so ambiguous - I went and looked up the original - John 20:23. Now while there are some translations that are less elliptical, most "retain" the ambiguity. Surprising.

[@lynncw9202]

@@hereticatious .. different translations in different bibles. The KJV ( the most used .. who knows why!!?? 🤷) says ' remit'. The New English ( my bible but not so new) says 'forgive'! Take your pick. All mean the same thing. Jesus gave His authority to Peter and the apostles and generations of priests after them.

[@7349yt]

"Trans-Catholics"😉

[@hereticatious]

I'm not going near this.