Confessions of a NASCAR engine builder. How we Found the Smoking Gun!

[@dannydurham5716]

Brian, you're in the top 5 channels like this in my opinion. I don't want to pick a favorite because I need you all. Keep it up!

[@philipwalden3620]

I know just how you felt about that nascar engine I had a problem with a late model engine that took me 3 weeks to figure out I almost gave up I thought i knowed everything about that engine and it was something so simple. Love your videos keep it up.

[@BruceDuckhart]

Thanks for sharing that! Too many machanics won't share thier mistakes and the rest of us are no better off. You are a good man for it.

[@roughwater3454]

We talk about this quality problem all the time. It doesn't matter if its a $2000 piston, the doctor giving you meds, or if its a simple order of food. We just can't get it right anymore. It's hard on the ole nerves to say the least....

[@jasonshrout8921]

I blame it on... feelings.... well. I felt like digging in a bit further with the lathe because... a: I like the sounds it makes, b: I was too lazy to plan and check my work, or gen z: meh it's ok lol, hey leave me alone, I have a cat box to crap in, dont judge me.

[@markwallace5274]

As someone that builds engines for myself and customers you do everything you can during assembly to make sure it’s right and then after break in you can kinda start to relax but there’s nothing worse than having an issue like this that is so hard to diagnose and NO engine builder wants their name on a Smokey engine !!! I’m glad you figured it out and shared with us what it was.

[@biastv1234]

Australian mechanic here, I don’t build engines that often, but my motto is “ measure measure measure, clean clean clean”. But there is a limit to what can be done.

[@cjespers]

All your videos are awesome. Thank you for all the effort required to create them.

[@markmcmullen1371]

I just build street engines mild ones, but that's a very interesting problem to have dealt with, gives me something to keep an eye out for. Good show thanks again. 👍👍👍

[@merobot.6275]

Hey, there’s a first for everything. I wouldn’t beat myself up on it too hard, but what an interestingly unique problem to have experience. Encountering these sort of problems only bring the best of out you to become an event better version of yourself, I’m sure because of this, you’ve disciplined your quality control and eye for detail to the next level. It’s what truly separates a good engine builder to the average engine builder.

[@carlw.pfaender9208]

Great explanation. Maybe a video on what’s your tightest PV clearance and quench you’ve run. Very cool. Thanks.

[@tonydowns9424]

Great channel! Lots learned from you, Thanks!

[@StainlessTIG2]

Thank you. Glad you figured it out

[@BIGGGJOHN171]

We had a engine blow after 10 laps at Daytona. Ford engine uses a square keyway to keep the cam in check with the crank. This key was not long enough to reach the harmonic balancer. Allowing the key to wiggle out of the bottom sprocket. Gathering all the valves up.

[@KarlCurtisZeuch]

It might be that because of that extra piston groove depth, the dry sump's oil scavenging vacuum during idle was great enough to pull oil past the intake valve stem-to-guide clearance into the port and the cylinder.

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@KarlCurtisZeuch that's exactly what I thought too which is why I checked all that the second and third time I took it apart replacing new seals My stem to guide clearance was perfect. Once I got the new set of pistons in the problem went away. But you are right it can do that and I thought that's what it was but it turned out not to be it was strange man really strange and then since I posted that video I had a guy call me about 3 days ago and tell me that several cup teams ran into the exact same issue with the exact same piston company and out of sheer embarrassment they don't use that piston style anymore. Thank you for your comment

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@KarlCurtisZeuch oh sorry I just now read what you wrote you could be right but one thing is for sure when I got new Pistons it went away

[@SalterRacingEngines]

I meant to say really read what you wrote

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@KarlCurtisZeuch I honestly think the Piston pin sprayers for overpowering the rings at idle

[@Adrianzx]

JE was great when they were independently owned

[@billywird]

Yes sir, that is a "tricky wheel" for sure. I remember reading about how piston and ring manufacturers would produce shims for ring grooves in pistons in order to save them from being replaced due to excessive wear in the ring grooves causing excessive oil consumption (we are talking about a stock engine here). Of course, piston skirt knurling was also a common service to pistons. People just did not replace parts back in the day as those parts were expensive, but as time wore on the parts got more affordable and it made no economic sense to perform this shimming and knurling anymore. If one refers to old service manuals (from the forties and fifties) these procedures were commonplace in order to save money. Now get this a man that I have done business within the automotive machine shop business for over fifty years told me that once you could completely remanufacture a six-cylinder Chevrolet engine for around eighty (yes eighty) bucks. So, it is easy to overlook something like this as these ring clearance specifications and checking those specifications have become something of the past. It is sure interesting to find the root cause of this problem and it may be the root cause of some of the horror stories I have heard from people who have had this trouble on just a stock rebuild. As a matter of fact, a man who I did business with on a diesel engine (Cummings) told me that it is wear in the ring grooves that is the cause of excessive oil consumption. Good catch and thank you for sharing.🥸👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

[@Shademax4273]

Thats crazy. I feel like good engine builders/tuners could also be good detectives with all the troubleshooting and putting pieces together.

[@460FORDMAV]

Thanks so much for sharing this information

[@stewarth8390]

Thanks for the follow up video. That explanation was excellent! I hope that driver apologised for all the grief he caused….

[@JohnH.-qp6fb]

Ran into this myself in the 70's on an Arias piston set. (Oil ring only). It was found out when installing the rails. They went in slightly easier causing me to look at it closer. I did use feeler gages for dimensions for our build sheets for the customers anyway so it was a normal thing to do. I recall something around .010-.015. The ring dropped into the groove way to deep as well. Called and gave the pin gage size and depth. They sent a ring for some Tractor engine and that was it. -- That was when you had to squeeze the segments to drop the drag. But who knew what happened. It might have been a job for the Tractor engine before mine but it just came down taking notice and measuring. Parts were just not as good then. -- Worked out just fine.

[@RonaldLewis-py6yt]

Thanks for sharing,That's why your a professional engine builder, always like your content !!😊

[@arturozarate1752]

0.032" that's freaking amazing! That's a pinion bearing shim.....😮 Love it!

[@scottosborne8735]

A naturally aspirated street-driven car. Typical street-strip format: cam, headers, gear. This car cruises 80 mph at 3800 rpm and self- destructs. I suspect oil overheating under strong scavenging at cruise rpm. The gear choice was more suited for drag racing. It seemed to be an unconquerable obstacle. My engine was 450 CI Pontiac 389 w/455 crank, 12:1 CR. My exhaust was 1.75" long-tube headers with 4-2-1 collectors and a 2.5" x-pipe duals to rear bumper. STRONG SCAVENGER! It pulled 23" Hg at 3800 rpm. Did the scavenging cause the anomoly? Oil temperature would remain normal until I entered the freeway cruise mode.

[@SalterRacingEngines]

No I don't think it was your scavenging without seeing the motor it would be impossible to tell but I do have a thought about it. My thought would be insufficient cooling of the water and the oil. When you're running a large crankshaft like that you're piston speed is fairly hi especially at 3800 RPMs cruising. My thought would be probably should have ran a remote oil lines to a fairly large cooler. But again without seeing it it's hard to say because 3800 RPMs is not a big deal so either it could have been detonating without you knowing it especially if the car was loud it would be hard to tell. I would have liked to have seen the spark plugs on all the cylinders to see what was going on and see pictures of the damage.

[@benpeirce2531]

How do you check new pistons? Just visually roll the ring around each groove. Also someone said thanks for sharing your mistakes. I don't belive it was your mistake it was the parts manufacturer. Happy Trails

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Yeah it wasn't really my mistake but at any rate there should only be between 8 and 12 behind the ring when the ring is compressed in the cylinder the Piston company had made it right at 20 so when the ring was compressed in the cylinder it had an extra 10 to 12 behind the ring more than it should have and with the Piston pin oil sprayers we had it was shooting past the rings at idle because there was not enough cylinder pressure to keep the sealed it at that time. Once we swapped out the Pistons the problem went away

[@bobgyetvai9444]

Wow in a million years i wouldve never guessed that !!! Costly error on those pistons !!!

[@GrandPitoVic]

Great video brother. Some great information. Not many people would have thought about that being the issue. I'm not an engine builder tho I am building my Ls3. I would have thought I just suck and I shouldn't have wasted my money lol. I don't know what I'm doing. That takes years of experience to find something like that. Ir some serious luck lol.

[@georgedreisch2662]

So, what you are saying, is, at idle, there wasn’t enough volume of combustion gases able to get behind the ring, to fill the backspace, to properly expand a low tension ring. I tend to think that the low pressure of the vacuum versus the pressure flux across the four cycles, probably made it worse.

[@Nothingtoseehere363]

hmm my Mahle piston/ring package has .034'' back groove clearance! not assembled yet

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Well the clearance comes into play when the rings are compressed in the bore that's why it's very difficult to check and this was something that CP was doing a whole lot of cup teams went through this and they quit using that piston design because of embarrassment from smoking. Mahle has been a great brand hopefully you won't have any issues

[@Nothingtoseehere363]

@@SalterRacingEngines ahhh I think I understand better after your response. back to checking and measuring. thanks!

[@billshiff2060]

You gave the what and why but not the HOW. How did the oil get in there and how does that make it smoke only under those conditions?

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@billshiff2060 great question so because we run so much pan vacuum between 21 and 23 inches of vacuum on average, we have to run piston pin oil sprayers because the vacuum pulls the oil off the cylinder walls and off the crankshaft which that's what it is designed to do. So because the oil is limited now due to vacuum we purposely put in sprayers to spray the wrist pins and the skirts so at low RPM the piston ring land back cut was too deep and at idle the oil sprayers were able to go behind the rings and get into the combustion area Once we stepped on the throttle and the cylinder pressure increased the problem went away. After that we purchased new pistons and of course the problem was completely resolved after that.

[@edpetrocelli2633]

I don`t think I`d ever have figured that out on my own, especialy on a brand new motor. a very abnormal situation.

[@driverjamescopeland]

I have ADD... so I'm sorry if I missed something.... but was it bypassing enough oil to foul the plug? If not, just run the damn thing.

[@martymorse2]

Quality Control is a science. Whoever is in charge of QC has to know everything about each part manufactured. That also means from start to finish the blueprint travels with each part. Nothing goes to the packing department that has not been checked and rechecked by at least three different sets of eyes. Nothing ruins your day as much as the shame felt when a part is returned because it was wrong and someone in the QC Department missed it.

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@martymorse2 great point man that's a really good point however this was actually a design flaw not necessarily a quality control problem. Unknown to me at the time, it was something this piston manufacturer was trying to reduce friction from the rings and make a few more horsepower. Believe it or not I actually found out that little tidbit of information a few days ago. I had another NASCAR engine builder contact me and said that their team ran into it with every engine they did and they were all so embarrassed they quit using that piston design. I don't know maybe in the Piston manufacturers controlled setting it didn't smoke I'm not sure why they sent it out like that. But as you heard of my story it just caused everyone total embarrassment from the smoke. And it was so subtle that the first time you ran into this meaning myself you wouldn't really catch it. Just so happens I was one of the unlucky ducks they tried it on. Thanks for your comment

[@martymorse2]

Thank you for correcting me. Really enjoying your series.

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@martymorse2oh no buddy it wasn't correcting you at all it's just that I didn't find that out about other people having the same issue until after I posted the video. That's why I say it was a design flaw. Thank you for the comment I really appreciate it

[@martymorse2]

@@SalterRacingEngines I worked in QC at a large machine shop. All parts traveling the machining process with a blue print and invoice attached which were laminated so there were no smudges on them. Each part was triple checked against both the invoice and BP as they moved up the manufacturing process. Anything that went out the door was checked by our Team so there were few returns. The first time I had a product come back I was devastated. I changed professions but what I learned working in that department has stayed with me over the last 50 years and it made me a valued employee.

[@ablejohnson]

Can't blame Yrump for this one! 🤣 Great info, very interesting problem and insight. Thank you for sharing your knowledge

[@Dan-z7l2k]

Brian, this is going to blow your mind but you probably already know this.... Why in the world would on same engine, a 454 mild performance solid cam 10.5:1 motor, produce MORE TORQUE AND HP across the entire curve with a Rectangular Port single plane intake, bolted to this OVAL PORT HEADED 454? I mean box stock untouched intake with same manufacturer and model intake the only difference being the brand new oval port version he brought to dyno PRODUCED LESS EVERYTHING. NO OTHER CHANGES WERE MADE. ENGINE was still warm from previous pulls. Then, when I asked the local Big Block Chevy Guru Larry Peto from Larry's Engine and Marine why this is happening, I was told ...SSSSHHH. Its a secret. He does a ton of BBC Marine engines and I took a peek at some of them last time I was at Apache Lake and other than the Blown Aluminum Rodecks everywhere, the normal cruisers, mild performance had rectangle port intakes on them - 2 with iron heads 1 had some Edelbrock Performer oval pirt aluminum heads with rectangle intake. IT MAKES ZERO SENSE! The wall that fuel air column hits should absolutely KILL the numbers! What in the heck is going on with this?

[@shane-222]

So, what do you do differently now? Use a wire shim in the groove and make sure the ring protrudes or sits flat??

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@shane-222 no it was a design flaw with that particular set of Pistons you know after I posted that video I got a call from another NASCAR team member who told me that several teams went through the same thing with that particular piston company and they no longer do it as far as the way they cut the ring lands because of sheer embarrassment from the smoking but once I changed the Pistons out the problem was solved. You only need about 8 to 12 thou behind the ring and this one had about 25

[@shane-222]

@@SalterRacingEnginesthanks!!

[@MrNater41]

I would expect it out of hypereutectics or even cheaper forged like eagles. Sure hope they weren't Diamonds 😬

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@MrNater41 no neither one but it was a machining error due to a bad design not necessarily quality control.

[@JAStheACE]

Another cool story, Thanks Brian, shame you had to learn the hard way on that one, by the way i really dig the intro/outro music, stay safe, Cheers from Aus.

[@blueridgemountainprepper2166]

Hmm I had similar situation in a kart race engine, 5hp Briggs. Never found out why, this possibly could've been my problem as well

[@FrankJones-ne2qo]

Been watching alot of your life's adventures you seem to be a motor man with vast experience and try to do the rite thing to help people and love you to the point attitude I would definitely think long and hard before I p_ssed you off don't sound like it would take much disrespect and someone mite catch a right hand but saying that I know I could do business with you good luck stay true to your self

[@rickstine7107]

You are responsible for making the car go not stop 😂😂

[@dondotterer24]

I'm thinking that my friend that is an engine builder ran into the same thing. I know he has fround problems with some expensive pistons. I will ask him. Thanks for all your videos!

[@Trev-fl1oe]

Hi from Australia thankyou for sharing our wealth of experience in here to learn.on your vid on distributor how would you time a ford tfi distributor the sane our do you do it different.peace

[@CurtissRobert]

Is there a set depth measurement for the ring land? So as a builder could use a depth mic to measure it

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Yes and if you're not sure ask the ring manufacturer but a lot of times they wan't.010 behind the ring installed in the cylinder but to be sure of that you can ask the Piston or ring manufacturer

[@wifeswapperbg7]

I only build old skool mild street engines. Would that be too much clearance in my case without crankcase vacuum? I damn sure dont play with. 032 rings either.

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Well that's too thin of a ring for a long high mileage engine but people may not realize we use piston pin oil sprayers because we run high pan vacuum and it was just overpowering the rings at idle because the Piston was made incorrectly. Once we got a new set of Pistons the problem was cured

[@wifeswapperbg7]

@SalterRacingEngines Just out of curiosity, would it have been more expense and lead time to have rings made for the piston?

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@wifeswapperbg7 no all this took place in one week time

[@wifeswapperbg7]

@SalterRacingEngines That's crazy, hats off to you. I'm not wired for rush jobs like that.

[@wifeswapperbg7]

Last question on this topic. Would this have even presented itself if there was no vac on crankcase? As in a lower class engine.

[@Letzgobrandun-wi1pc]

Smokey Yunick would have found it...😂

[@ronosga4391]

How much clearance is too much you mention it should be .010" but only say it was more than that, what is ideal .008"-.012"?

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@ronosga4391 piston ring manufacturers are the ones that determine that because they are the ones that design their pistol ring so with that being said total still recommends about 10 behind the ring. But always check with them if you're concerned about that issue. If you buy a piston and ring package you can get that blue print from the Piston manufacturer and be able to check it that way.

[@Miccio1]

Does the high vacuum in the crankcase create horsepower?

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Absolutely 15 to 30 depending on the situation

[@brianalbrecht4423]

nowadays u HAVE to check everything...!..it was never that bad years ago..!...?..?..?...it seams like after the pandemick is when it got really bad..IMO...?..?...?...great explanation...& drawing..!..thanks...!

[@cam3002]

How much was it smoking? If this was a race engine and smokes at idle, is that a big deal? I can understand a street engine needs to be clean but a race engine smoking as long as it is not fouling the plugs or causing hot spots on the piston crown, why all the effort?

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Watch confessions of a NASCAR engine builder and you'll understand

[@overbuiltautomotive1299]

Question did the piston company do you right after they figured out it was them like a free set of pistons of you choice / bet not but ?

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@overbuiltautomotive1299 no they did not and I don't use them anymore either

[@6.8SuperDutyDriver]

Good show. You may have mentioned it and I missed it, but was it just one defective piston, or was the whole set defective?

[@josecarreira8934]

That would of been a testing time of patience and especially dealing with the driver also and the removal of the motor several times.

[@patrickwendling6759]

Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP 2024

[@mikemcnamara2943]

This is a bit off topic, but you mentioned 12/1 compression and cylinder pressure. You said you build an Engine for 12/1 but change the cylinder pressure with the cam. But doesn’t that change the 12/1? So can you have 10/1 and 180 or 190 psi? And still use pump gas?

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@mikemcnamara2943 that is a great question to ask. Among directly impacting the cylinders ability to fill camshaft specs also directly impact cylinder pressure. That's why they're so important. Cams at least racing cams are designed to make the engine efficient at very high RPMs but when you have long durations and a lot of overlap you're bleeding cylinder pressure off at low RPMs. It does not change anything statically only dynamically.

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Have you ever noticed that when you want a big cam that they recommend higher compression ratios? That's the reason because you bleed cylinder pressure off with a large camshaft

[@mikemcnamara2943]

So what about cylinder pressure? If I have 10/1 but 190 cylinder pressure can I still run pump gas ?

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@mikemcnamara2943 what's your camshaft specs

[@SalterRacingEngines]

Also what kind of engine are we talking about and what type of cylinder heads are on it because that matters

[@FOSTERSFARMGARAGETV]

Make a test set of single tube headers to pop on, see which cyl is smoking quick!

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@FOSTERSFARMGARAGETV that's a great idea unfortunately it was all of them

[@FOSTERSFARMGARAGETV]

@@SalterRacingEngines sounds about right, that be my luck after building a set of test headers! Then i'd really be scratching my head with all cylinders smoking after 3 sets of rings! Something to pay attention to! Glad you found the problem! wonder if there is any advantage to it? Engine temp run cooler under cautions? Etc... He ran 3rd with it!!

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@FOSTERSFARMGARAGETV it ran awesome just embarrassed by the idle smoke

[@FOSTERSFARMGARAGETV]

@@SalterRacingEngines There is a name for it > was reading about sbc oil pumps a HV pump can hurt a engine in some cases unless there setup for it etc> could it be with a looser piston ring and right weight of oil 5w 30 there is some HP gain but not much, maybe 1 hp on stock engine ,so your race engines might gain more ,i believe pump is a shark tooth design gear from Mel oil pumps..

[@SalterRacingEngines]

@@FOSTERSFARMGARAGETV well high volume oil pumps require more horsepower to rotate them due to the resistance caused by the pump having to build so much pressure and push such a high volume of oil so that does cost horsepower. It's always best if you just keep your oil pressure at 10 lb for every 1,000 RPM. There are lots of ways to accomplish that. I do not use 5w30 oil because when it gets hot it's like water and I've seen horsepower gains from running thicker oil because it increases piston ring seal and also it cushions your rod bearings against your crankshaft and your skirts against the cylinder wall as well as it lubricate the valve train so much better. I want to keep my engine together so oiling is a big deal to me. If I can't win a race because the oil pump cost me 5 horse power then I just ain't going to win, but that's obviously not been the case so yeah just be careful chasing that.

[@glenbrannon7224]

Very tricky one.

[@LOUIS-fp3bv]

Have you ever built demo derby engines? If so talk about that.

[@markbogle8062]

That would be hard to find

[@Thumper68]

12-13 years ago I’d say probably wiseco pistons.

[@baby-sharkgto4902]

We here!

[@brianholcomb6499]

You absolutely have to check everything! Parts since Covid, even the most expensive have come with problems! QC sucks! Everyone had to hire someone to work, they may even have been trained! But, they still don’t understand it 🤷🤷🤷🤷! Sucks!