Connecting Chesapeake? Do it with light rail!

[@Titoroski187]

YES! FRICKIN, YES

[@vavin6927]

There was a ferry connecting the Hampton to Norfolk in the early 2000s. It is very much undocumented beyond some reddit posts and news articles discussing its closing.

[@29downtheline]

HRT is trying to bring it back, so if it does make a comeback, I hope to go ride it!

[@ImRatherMinty]

AHHH THIS EXACTLY WHAT IVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT! I'm a VB local and I watched the Tide's death at the hand of people who had no idea what a light rail was, or had ever thought of a bus more than something that blocks traffic sometimes at a bus stop. The 1999 and 2012 light rail referendum in VB showed public support to bring the Tide to Town Center. Norfolk built their portion first, since they got FTA funding first and Norfolk's portion had the maintenance shop at NSU. Norfolk got all the way finished with construction, opened the Tide in Norfolk, then looked at VB to finish our portion. VB city council stalled and stalled. The State had already paid 20 million to purchase the right of way to BUILD THE TIDE in VB. Eventually they put it to referendum in 2016 and it was killed 57 to 43. 57 TO 43!!!!!!!! Not 80/20, almost 50/50. The Tide was never allowed to live up to its full potential. Without the VB portion, the Tide never met the ridership numbers it originally proposed with the full system, and the public has never acknowledged it as viable alternative to driving to Norfolk. Even today, people who live in VB are more willing to drive to downtown norfolk in traffic and park in expensive parking garages, than they are to park free at the Newtown park and ride lot and ride the Tide into Norfolk. Technically light rail in VB isn't dead, the 2016 referendum only denied the used of city funds to pay for any light rail construction. I have been urging for years that council either needs to put up another referendum to kill the 2016 one, or build a BRT in the right of way, show that its a valuable transit mode, and eventually convert it to light rail years and years down the line. The biggest employer around here is the navy. Norfolk Naval Base, Little Creek, Oceana, and the shipyards at Norfolk and Newport News. If you built viable rapid transit that covered a broad area and had stops at the bases, ridership would soar through the roof. In my perfect hyper-version of Hampton Roads' transit Master Plan, I would have not let the HRBT expansion exist as it is now. Instead of boring two new tunnels to add 4 new lanes to interstate 64, I would have made only one new tunnel and extended the light rail from its end point in Norfolk, near Norfolk Naval Base, across the HRBT, through Hampton, and ending at the shipyard in Newport News. I think HRT's push for BRT is a cheap alternative to bring transit to a metro area that doesn't understand transit and doesn't want transit. If HRT builts BRT, urges people to use it with steep military discounts or free weekends, keeps reliability and punctuality, I think there is a chance that ridership would be enough to eventually replacing the busiest routes with light rail. What we need is the public to change their perception of transit, and become open to building more transit and being ok with the upfront costs and construction pains to have a transit system that people want to use.

[@29downtheline]

@@ImRatherMinty All very good points! Thank you so much for your insight! And I have to agree with you on the HRBT project, although I think a cross-James rail line would need to have pretty high speeds to be a good alternative to driving. I think it’s still reasonable to hold on to hope for more light rail in other parts of Hampton Roads; people just need to realize that good transit can be a long-term solution to road traffic!

[@PiplupJames]

Good and i agree. But as long as the VB mayor is still in office, it won’t happen. Dyer was always against LRT during his time in council and I’m doubting he’ll change his mind now. I still have hope for LRT extension to the oceanfront in my lifetime.

[@ImRatherMinty]

@@PiplupJames I really really really hope that the VB Trail doesnt block the right-of-way and prevent LRT or BRT from being built there for the rest of time.

[@29downtheline]

@@ImRatherMinty Didn’t even know VB wanted to put a trail there. If I had to guess, they’ve probably given up on ever putting any transit there. Hopefully that will change. Maybe I’ll have to make a video on it:)

[@krazyjnva2up2down55]

What's crazy is Richmond created the trolley/light rail

[@29downtheline]

It is! I’d love to see Richmond consider building some rail transit again!

[@krazyjnva2up2down55]

@29downtheline they can easily do it on Broad St. It's a no brainer. A line that runs all of Broad St, Chamberlayne Blvd, and at the very least Jefferson Davis highway with a extention to the beginning of Hull st. That would cover atleast half of the city of Richmond. Richmond was planned out very well.

[@29downtheline]

@@krazyjnva2up2down55 Yeah, those busy corridors could definitely stand to see some rail transit. The Pulse is already at crush-capacity sometimes, so rail would be the best choice for an upgrade!

[@Titoroski187]

@1:23 O........M.......G..... That's EXACTLY my thoughts! I communicated with Chesapeake leadership about transit and they were waaaaaaay to excited about BRT, and I couldn't understand the justification

[@29downtheline]

Glad we agree! If they’re trying to copy Richmond for “good” BRT, it’s not gonna be good. HRT already runs fast express buses on the freeways, so a BRT could quite possibly be the slowest option of the three choices. Now, if HRT sent their project design team to Mexico City for inspiration, I’d be a little more open to BRT being built. But the Pulse is already at maximum capacity sometimes. HRT very well could run into that same issue. I’m really hoping local leaders (and residents) can reach a solution that involves light rail, because Virginia has proven that it’s not very good at building BRT. I can’t do too much beyond making videos like this since I much more often ride HRT’s northside division, but I really hope people in Chesapeake can get behind light rail.

[@Whatneeds2bsaid]

Hey, recently came across your channel! Hampton Roads is an interesting place. Uncle was in the navy and I visited a few times with family. Would love to see more about this-including maps of possible. Keep up the good work!

[@29downtheline]

Thanks for watching! If I do a second video on this study, it’ll definitely focus more on maps of the future alignments! Sorry that the ones in this video were only on screen for just a few seconds! The link in the description to the study website has some maps if you wanted to look in the meantime, though!

[@erikgustafson9319]

Only problem that what is needed is pure regional rail

[@Larant88]

I'm a Chesapeake resident I vote yes. Norfolk and Chesapeake can form something special. Something the other cities don't have.

[@29downtheline]

Norfolk and Virginia Beach tried, and VB just didn’t want to. Since this project is supposed to be done in tandem with Chesapeake developing parts of its city, this could truly be an opportunity to create an amazing transit solution that serves a lot of people!

[@kennethschlegel870]

I think a BRT system does have some hidden advantages that are worth considering. In order to build a "Good" BRT system you need 1. Dedicated Right of Way 2. Platform boarding and fare collection 3. Signal Prioritization 4*. (*Bonus Option) Overhead wires for trolley bus In my opinion you are already 3(4*)/5 steps on the way to light rail, you just need overhead wires* and tracks. So you can build the BRT system without AS MUCH opposition from the suburban NIMBYs and once it proves successful you can upgrade it to light rail further down the road. Hampton roads is a hard place to build transit, its the number 1 most populated metro area of Virginia with the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, 9th, and 11th most populated cities in the state and yet i frequently hear people in Virginia beach and Chesapeake whine about "this is a rural area, we don't need transit and all this development here..."

[@29downtheline]

Those are all good points about BRT. But if they’re gonna go ahead and build all that infrastructure, they might as well just lay tracks down. But, if they go with BRT, it needs to be done right! (Trolleybuses would be neat!) And Virginia Beach and Chesapeake are both weird because they are each the size of a county. So, parts of each are extremely rural. However, they both have denser sections. As far as I’m aware, nobody is proposing high capacity transit to farm fields and swamps, so my guess is people are complaining about where tax money is going, which, in cities that are both urban and rural (or practically uninhabited in the corner of Chesapeake that is the Great Dismal Swamp), is an interesting argument. The transit line, if anything is built at all, is going to places where people will actually use it!

[@ange34]

Nice video! I got to NSU and haven’t ridden the Tide yet since I just got here. I think it would be best if they chose light rail here, but I feel they will choose brt if they end up going through with the project

[@29downtheline]

@@ange34 Thanks for watching! I think that’s a pretty realistic expectation, but I could see them going for any of the options: express bus is probably the favorite option for the budget-conscious, light rail is probably the best option for those who actually want high quality rapid transit, and BRT is somewhere in the middle. However, I really don’t think BRT is that fast compared to rail transit, and I’d almost prefer an express bus with signal priority over BRT. Light rail is still my #1 choice though. Also, NSU probably has the best transit connections of any 4 year school in Hampton Roads: you’re only a short light rail ride away from the Norfolk Amtrak station, downtown Norfolk, and the Elizabeth River Ferry to Portsmouth. Naturally, NSU beats out everything on the peninsula in terms of transit access because Newport News and Hampton only have buses and Amtrak trains (HU has easy access to the 961 express bus, but CNU has multiple one-seat local bus connections to the Newport News Amtrak station). ODU, Regent, and Virginia Wesleyan all have nearby buses, but it’s still not rail!

[@tyleralberico]

Wonderful video! Consistently persuasive and well justified arguments

[@29downtheline]

Thank you for the compliment! Glad you liked the video!

[@iliketrains0pwned]

What are your thoughts about building a light and/or heavy rail tunnel across the bay between Norfolk and Newport News's Amtrak stations? I believe that creating a direct rail line between the Peninsula and Norfolk would be a HUGE benefit for the Hampton Roads area, especially considering that the main bottleneck for traffic is through the HRBT and the MMMBT, and since there's a large demand for commuting between all of the military bases/installations on either side of the water.

[@29downtheline]

@@iliketrains0pwned I think a rail tunnel would be amazing, but I think it’s extremely unlikely. It makes me a little mad that the new tunnels they’re building right now for the HRBT are both for automobile traffic. I feel like we should have built one for rail. The issue with this, though, is northern Norfolk’s flooding problem. The line could potentially go through areas that are prone to flooding during storms, which could necessitate either expensive construction or constant disruptions to service. This is not necessarily a complete barrier to construction, though. I think it’s much more likely we’ll see ferries across the James River. It’s unfortunate that they probably won’t be very fast, but they will at least provide an alternative to the bridge tunnels. Higher speed ferries could be really cool, though. I think, if a rail tunnel were somehow miraculously built, it should ideally be for both heavy and light rail, so smaller transit vehicles and larger intercity trains could use it. But this is merely a fantasy and probably won’t happen. But it would be nice way for locals to skip traffic (much of which is beach traffic in the summer) on a daily basis.

[@Anthony-zi6yt]

Best video yet!

[@29downtheline]

Thank you!

[@TheGAMWolferz]

This is a great video. I’ve never been to Norfolk but based off what I see and hear on the internet, The Tide has a lot of potential to be a great Light Rail line. I hope they do get that much needed expansion. As far as BRT is concerned. I’ve been on Metroway once. It is way too over ambitious of a project plus the Blue and Yellow lines basically does the job for metroway… And as for Pulse. It does punch above its weight especially if you’re comparing it with Metroway and Flash but it’s also over-romanticized. I don’t think they need to follow Richmond’s and DC in making a BRT. The Tide needs to be expanded.

[@29downtheline]

Agreed!

[@hairypotter259]

I like the alignment where they delete all the roads and make it all rail 😈

[@29downtheline]

The thing is we already have so many rail rights of way… it’s almost too easy…

[@Shortline819]

Excellent video! The immediate Norfolk-Portsmouth-Chesapeake area seems like prime candidate for light rail, as already partiality demonstrated by the Tide. It's a decently dense area, but not dense enough to warrant a full-on Metro. It's also close enough together where light rail's speeds wouldn't be a detriment to the system. While a Tide extension all the way to Virginia Beach would be both nice and very doable, I feel like that would be better suited by a Metro-style semi-regional rail. This is mostly due to the distances involved. If the MDOT Maryland MTA Baltimore Metro Light Rail Link proves anything, its that light rail isn't suited well for long distance. I fear if HRT decides to expand out the Tide, it would fall into the trap of building modes that aren't well suited for what they are trying to accomplish.

[@29downtheline]

Thanks for watching! Light rail in Chesapeake will make sense eventually, but we have to keep in mind the timeline. Much of Chesapeake is currently low density. The city presumably wants to grow and develop around an integrated transit plan (i.e. Connnecting Chesapeake), so it’s possible we could see higher-density development adjacent to this future transit line. If Chesapeake were to somehow build this line overnight, it may not do well in terms of ridership, but if it’s built in conjunction with good TOD, light rail will make a lot of sense. I think Hampton Roads has given up on light rail to Virginia Beach due to the lack of political viability. I think running light rail to the oceanfront makes sense, since the Tide can run really fast, but Virginia Beach has voted no on multiple proposals. So unless someone can convince Virginia Beach that light rail is good, it’s not gonna extend eastward.

[@lemapp]

Most American Transit Agencies, craft a budget. Divide that total by local populations and send out bills. HRT operates differently. It does get its funds from localities, but they each determine individually what they are willing to pay. Norfolk is willing to pay the most even though it isn't the largest population. This is reflected in the number of buses, ferries and light rail. Also note: HRT has had a history with corrupt operations. I hope they have put that behind them, but it was clouded if they were a good use of public funds.

[@29downtheline]

Thats an interesting method of funding, for sure! Perhaps Norfolk is willing to pay more than VA Beach because its population is more spread out, whereas rural Virginia Beach residents may not support more transit because it doesn’t really serve them.

[@CaptRR]

The only problem with HRT, is that it’s just so dang slow. Also the new HRBT was a huge missed opertunity, they should have inclucded a rail tunnel into the project, not only for Amtrak, but for connecting Hampton and Newport News.

[@29downtheline]

@@CaptRR I 100% agree that the HRBT project was a missed opportunity to build more rail infrastructure!

[@DanHominem]

Chesapeake is close enough to Norfolk for LRT to make sense, but areas like Virginia Beach and Newport News may be a bit too far out. Hampton Roads is werid, its 4 small cities wearing a trench coat pretending to be a big(ish) city. A HRT regional rail with LRTS in each respective city would be awesome. Also, yes, more video essays!

[@29downtheline]

Any kind of rail across the James would most likely be an improvement to what we have now (buses running down the interstate), but intercity ferries are more likely (and a little more practical) for Hampton Roads. Still, an integrated regional rail system would be awesome! And hopefully there will be some more video-essay style videos in the future, but I’m not sure exactly when!

[@madgolfer17]

What if I told you that Hampton Roads once had rail transit that connected all of the cities of Hampton Roads (not including the peninsula) that were all connected via a magnificent Train Station where Harbor Park now sits? That was a reality for this area prior to 1948. As a resident of the area, learning that tram lines are buried underneath the medians of Granby St radicalized me against American urban planning.

[@29downtheline]

I’ve seen pictures of Norfolk’s old train station. Truly a shame it’s gone. The new one doesn’t even compare. I’m not at all surprised more rail transit was once a thing here. Even Newport News had a couple streetcar lines! As for tram lines, my philosophy depends. If the trams are in the middle of streets or in their own right of way, away from parked cars, and not stuck in traffic, I like them a lot. If they get stuck in traffic or behind parked vehicles constantly, I prefer buses. Basically, if there’s a dedicated lane or right of way, I prefer rail over bus.

[@madgolfer17]

@@29downtheline you can find old transit maps of the area and it is amazing how perfectly it was layed out for today's current population centers. The traffic problems of today would most likely not exist with the transit system of 1948.

[@29downtheline]

​​⁠Hopefully we’ll see some more rail transit in the future! More frequent buses would be great, too!

[@PiplupJames]

Virginia Beach should’ve been had light rail a long time ago. I was a HEAVY ADVOCATE for it. I do think that the Chesapeake study should be BRT only. It makes more sense being that way. But I am happy that HRT is trying for what they have. It’s my home transit agency.

[@29downtheline]

@@PiplupJames I’m curious, why do you favor BRT for Chesapeake? At least for me, if the line could magically open tomorrow, I think an express bus would make a lot of sense as well, but that’s because much of Chesapeake doesn’t necessarily have a ton of density. I think where the light rail comes in handy is with Chesapeake’s growth strategy. Chesapeake presumably wants to continue growing, and if they want more transit-oriented development, I think an actual rapid transit line would be better for that (i.e. light rail or BRT). I think light rail does this better, but I could get behind a BRT if it was future-proofed and designed in a way that allows for future addition of light rail trains. (I think busways and light rail lines can coexist in the same right of way, as we see on parts of Pittsburgh’s light rail network).

[@PiplupJames]

@@29downtheline when the Chesapeake study narrowed down to the 4 options we have currently, I’ve instantly said that NONE are light rail worthy. A couple of tier one’s alignments are light rail worthy and they didn’t pass into tier 2. I’ve wanted some sort of light rail running along military highway connecting to the current tide.

[@29downtheline]

@@PiplupJames With how Chesapeake is right now, I would agree. But I really feel like a rapid transit line anywhere could be fine if they actually develop/redevelop the land around it. There’s plenty of opportunity for that along Military Hwy, but I’m not sure having light rail run down the middle of that would be the most rider-friendly experience. I feel like something like Atlantic Ave/Campostella Rd would create a better rider experience.

[@GintaPPE1000]

Light rail is the most viable solution long-term, but I would argue BRT is still the better option for starting up the service. For one, there’s simply a lot of negative local stigma around the Tide, which means any expansion is a long, drawn-out exercise in politics and teeth-pulling. Look how long HRT has tried to even get an expansion to Military Circle funded - and the original plan to go to Naval Station Norfolk is outright off the table. For another, Hampton Roads has a sprawl problem, so it’s very difficult to feed rail enough traffic to take advantage of its higher capacity without a weaving route to serve as many major destinations as possible. Such a route, however, kills the speed, and thus competitiveness with the car. BRT gives HRT the ability to run a high-frequency “spine”, while still being able to funnel riders onto the corridor because your buses can continue on past the end of it corridor to serve more destinations without requiring major infrastructure. Lastly, consider that a proper South American-style BRT corridor can be converted fairly easily to light rail so long as there aren’t any steep grades. If the ridership is there, then the upgrade will be justified.

[@29downtheline]

I agree that BRT would be easier in the short term, even though I’d rather just build for the long term right from the get-go. As for the proposed Naval Station Norfolk extension of the Tide, I think making that a light rail line could be really risky, since, as HRT acknowledges, that part of Norfolk has frequent flooding issues. The line would have to be elevated or built on higher ground to be consistently reliable. I agree that, if BRT is built, it should be inspired by South American systems. I’m really not sure why they think Richmond is such a gold standard for BRT. And I’d be more open to BRT if it was built with a potential future conversion to light rail in mind. I think the alignments along Atlantic Ave could be good for this!

[@tyleralberico]

@@29downthelineyeah after having ridden the pulse for three months now, idk why it’s so hyped either (including myself… I would revise my last video 😂)

[@29downtheline]

@@tyleralberico I need to get up to Richmond at some point to ride the Pulse!

[@tyleralberico]

@@29downtheline yeah, it’s not BAD, but I wouldn’t really call it good either

[@29downtheline]

@@tyleralberico I see. Are you planning on making any other videos featuring the Pulse?

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

I believe trams & Light-rail is the kind of minimal for high-quality metro-style transit... BRT is still low-grade of transit, even if it can be close to the top tier in that category... there is a qualitative difference which make the two incomparable... nevertheless, just to play devils advocate for a moment, the BRT is a route, not a transport mode.. a bus-route does not have to end at the BRT terminus, you could have multiple routes linking different communities all funneled through a single main BRT for the majority of their journey before fanning out either direction. a poor-man's ES Bahn or Crossrail

[@29downtheline]

@@stanislavkostarnov2157 Good point about routes being funneled into a BRT corridor. I actually visited Heidelberg, Germany, a couple of years ago and saw something really interesting. Trams sometimes run in dedicated lanes in the middle of streets, but with tracks laid in asphalt or concrete so buses can use the same dedicated lanes as the tram. I’ve not yet personally seen this in the US, interestingly enough, but it could make for an interesting combination of BRT and light rail. The first thing in America I can think of that’s kind of similar is Pittsburgh’s Mt. Washington tunnel.

[@stanislavkostarnov2157]

@@29downtheline the only place I saw this in the US was downtown San-Jose... as a result, if you wanted to transfer say for the Winchester bus ) you made a transfer on thesame platform using curbstyle level boarding... was really cool to see!

[@AustinSersen]

As someone who moved away from Hampton Roads over 7 years ago, and who hasn't seen progress on their system since then, I'm not too optimistic. I couldn't move back to the area, because being car free there is nearly impossible (No transit connection to the main airport...still?). I still can't believe they destroyed perfectly good diesel buses when they were awarded electric buses. What kind of funding arrangement is that? The end goal of that funding program wasn't to reduce emissions as more buses leads to increased frequencies leads to less people relying on cars. I wish them well, but unless they start getting very ambitious, HRT will always be an inferior system.

[@AustinSersen]

Also still bummed that they didn't pursue a western extension of the Tide. It could have ran on Colley Ave (closing the most core part of the main street to thru-traffic would be huge), ran parallel to the NS tracks to elevate and cross over onto Hampton Blvd connecting ODU, and then continuing up to the Navy base.

[@29downtheline]

I don’t think HRT has a lack of ambition, but I think their ideas too often get stopped in their tracks before they can get far. They are missing a couple of obvious things, like the connection to ORF you mentioned and more frequent buses, but that doesn’t really seem to stop them from proposing new projects. I definitely think they need to do a better job with the little things as well!

[@jadenmoore9268]

do you do weddings?

[@29downtheline]

Honestly it depends

[@Chinemeremdozie]

Wait you consider the chesapeake as the south east

[@29downtheline]

@@Chinemeremdozie At least geographically, I would. I would consider Northern Virginia as being more mid-Atlantic and southeastern Virginia as the southeast. Hampton Roads even has palm trees! Plus, Chesapeake borders Currituck County, NC, which partially encompasses the Outer Banks. So if the Outer Banks are the southeast, I think a decent case can be made for Chesapeake being in the southeast as well! I say all this knowing that which region Virginia is in depends on who you ask. It is quite a geographically diverse state!

[@Chinemeremdozie]

@@29downtheline true fr though its kinda like marylanders debating if its the south or the north

[@29downtheline]

@@Chinemeremdozie Being from Virginia, I think Maryland is not the south. Eastern Maryland is certainly mid-Atlantic but western Maryland is completely different!

[@Larant88]

Virginia and Maryland are technically south. But they have more of a Mid-Atlantic or Eastern feel to them. And yes, I'm from Virginia, born and raised. I love Virginia and Maryland. Two of the most beautiful states on the East Coast.

[@29downtheline]

@@Larant88 Yes, I think the southern mid-Atlantic really is underrated!

[@qjtvaddict]

Extend this Line elevate it and no more street running trains add full time all day service to express buses

[@qjtvaddict]

You do realize light rail gets stuck in traffic like buses!!!!! Without grade separation it’s just a giant bus on tracks

[@29downtheline]

I do; but much of the line is in its own right of way, and through downtown Norfolk I’ve never seen issues with traffic. They mostly run in their own dedicated lanes and have their own traffic signals so they can avoid conflicting car movements.

[@qjtvaddict]

@@29downtheline You sure? kzbin.info/www/bejne/gJDZlIatftdjqLcsi=-gu0Dd3QrAjiSEpl Tide is the 4th least used LRT

[@29downtheline]

@@qjtvaddict Tyler’s video is excellent; he makes a lot of good points. Yes, the Tide isn’t as well-used as it could be, but that doesn’t mean that the geography of the line and mostly-separate right of way is an issue. The greatest downfall of the Tide is that it doesn’t go places people want to go. A regional rail line would be better at serving longer distances, while something like the Tide is better for a more local route. I definitely think the region would see more benefit from a cross-James rail link, but I think it’s a little financially unrealistic at the moment. Something like a new light rail line is much more to-scale with what HRT seems to want to work with in the shorter term. But good regional rail in the long term? I’d definitely be in favor of it!