Consciousness, Intelligence, and the Quest for Meaning with Vervaeke, Henriques, Levin, and McSweeny

In this episode, John Vervaeke, Gregg Henriques, Michael Levin, and Justin McSweeny come together to discuss the complexities of consciousness, intelligence, and the human condition. The conversation balances between imagination and empirical evidence, introducing cognitive light cones to frame goal-directed behavior. They explore recursive relevance realization, predictive processing, and mutual modeling to show how our sense of self and our interaction with the world are connected. Addressing the meaning crisis, the discussion acknowledges various forms of intelligence and emphasizes the transformative nature of human experiences. This episode highlights the importance of rethinking how we see ourselves, the ongoing process of self-reconstruction, and the value of interdisciplinary dialogue in deepening our understanding of human existence and consciousness.
Bios and Links:
Gregg Henriques, Ph.D., is a professor of graduate psychology at James Madison University and founder of the Unified Theory of Knowledge www.unifiedtheoryofknowledge..... Discover more about Henriques through his website www.gregghenriques.com/, and follow his insights on Twitter at / henriqgx .
Michael Levin, Ph.D., is a distinguished professor and director of the Allen Discovery Center at Tufts University, specializing in developmental biology and biophysics. His pioneering research explores the bioelectric patterns that guide growth and form. Explore Levin's groundbreaking work on his lab's website, drmichaellevin.org/ and follow his latest discoveries on Twitter at / drmichaellevin .
Justin McSweeny is the visionary host of the Idea Cast Interview Series, where he facilitates thought-provoking discussions on a wide array of intellectual topics. Access episodes on his KZbin channel, / @ideacastilluminate and connect with him for updates on LinkedIn, / justin-mcsweeny-ba69ab162 .
Embark on a journey with us to tackle the Meaning Crisis by joining our exclusive Patreon group: / johnvervaeke
Connect with John:
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
X: / vervaeke_john
Resources:
The Vervaeke Foundation
vervaekefoundation.org/
Awaken to Meaning
awakentomeaning.com/
Transcendent Naturalism Ep. 1 | Dr. John Vervaeke and Gregg Henriques
• Transcendent Naturalis...
The Elusive I - Part 1 - The Cognitive Science Show • The Elusive I - Part 1...
Levin, M. (2019). The Computational Boundary of a “Self”: Developmental Bioelectricity Drives
Multicellularity and Scale-Free Cognition. Frontiers in Psychology, 10. doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.02688
Vervaeke, J., Lillicrap, T. P., & Richards, B. A. (2009, October 26). Relevance Realization and the Emerging Framework in Cognitive Science. Journal of Logic and Computation. doi.org/10.1093/logcom/exp067
Transformative Experience - L. A. Paul www.amazon.com/Transformative...
Quotes:
"What biology does is assumes that you can't just learn the structure of the past. You have to make problem-solving agents." - Michael Levin [00:39:10]
"When you're modeling the world, you're always, to some degree, modeling yourself; and as you're modeling yourself, you're always, to some degree, modeling the world. The two are interpenetrating." - John Vervaeke [00:16:30]
Glossary of Terms:
Cognitive Light Cone: A conceptual framework used to describe the spatial and temporal limits of an entity's cognition, determining what it can perceive and influence.
Relational Frame Theory (RFT): A theory of human language and cognition that focuses on how humans learn and how language interacts with cognition.
Chapters:
00:00:00 - Introduction and the Balance Between Imaginal and Empirical
00:02:00 - Understanding Complexification through Layered Ontology
00:04:30 - The Evolution of Goal-Directed Behavior and Cognitive Light Cones
00:12:30 - Recursive Relevance, Predictive Processing, and Mutual Modeling
00:30:00 - Addressing the Crisis of Meaning through Diverse Intelligence
00:38:00 - Transformative Experiences: Reconstructing Self and Reality
00:52:00 - Rationality, Dialogical Self, and Evolutionary Perspectives
01:16:00 - Conclusion: Interdisciplinary Dialogue and Final Reflections

[@oxy5100]

I always enjoy when you have Michael Levin in conversation. Thank you!

[@tangofaebatelli1237]

Only ~30min, but so appreciative of your sharing this conversation. I perked up at ‘prioritizing relationality over relata’ (big fan of Mcgilchrist’s Matter with Things) and humbled myself to slow the speed down from 1.5x to 1x so I can’t better digest this. 😅😂🙏

[@rodcameron7140]

I deeply enjoy these conversations between persons that have delved deeply into concepts that are not readily explorable in my social sphere. It is a bit like going to the monks that have sequestered themselves in an attempt to achieve a greater spiritual understanding. It brings to light ideas and concepts that I can play with, which really invigorates much more of my life than just the time spent exploring them. ...it also makes the time spent listening go by in a flash! ...I do have a question for others in the comments: Does anyone else find themselves pausing the video to explore the ramifications of the concepts discussed? ...or is it just me that will spend four hours on a one hour discussion?

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

The Self is real. It's by far the most real level of organization to us humans. This doesn't deny the reality of larger or smaller levels of organization, though.

[@HigherSofia]

Always a joy seeing new Vervaeke dialogoues, also some very valuable insights from Michael Levin here. But I do have a big wish, as I have now scoured the internet for dialogue between John Vervaeke and Jay Garfield without success, that you two might have a discussion one day.. I assume you already are familiar with Jay’s work, and I think a philosophical discussion between you two on the nature of self, nexus points between eastern & western thoughts etc would be extremely valuable. Is this something that might be possible in the future @johnvervaeke ?

[@colorfulbookmark]

I wish people coming to watch Dr.Vervaeke's video have good holiday to think about Good Friday ^^ I usually have read writings about Jesus Christ's meaning of life, this is postponed in this year.

[@slightlygruff]

somebody please go through Mike's library and find the two short stories : about how people grow wings after 120 and the one about gamma spectrum seeing creatures from the centerof earth

[@CrowMagnum]

Information, perspective, rationality, relationship, system. Each is an abstraction which models and regulates the one that preceded it. A cycle of expanding and deepening each is growth.

[@jasonmitchell5219]

Thanks.

[@colorfulbookmark]

What I have revere to people in this video is that they can suggest real modeling to resolve situations about mental imagination and its effect, this is why people have support for these people. It is also another support feeling to people who have experienced trapped victimized experiences, although the topic is not directly to mental disease and recovery. The imagination in this way is good enough to recovery flexibility.

[@colorfulbookmark]

The imaginal and empirical gap is generated by excessive harsh experiences conveyed by deep metaphor, in this case metaphor is excess inversive trick that was impulsed by someone. The imagination is what we have instinct as inferential attribute, in solidarity it is carried out by. So, isolation is precedent. The imagination is also utilised in grade school pedagogy. The lyrics modifying practice is taught as skill, but in Freudian sense of psychopathology it is named as if recollective danger in mental imagination. In this condition, the person who didn't blame anyone is named as if stupid, then imaginal and empricial gap occurs.

[@manlikeJoe1010]

"UTAHK Jahhn, UTAHK! I'm a genius Jaahhn"

[@the300XM8]

Hi John, I'm just going through Meghan O'Gieblyn's award winning book "Technology, Metaphor and the Search for Meaning". There is so much points where she and you converge, I'm wondering is she familiar with your work? Are you with hers? Nevertheless I think dialogos with her would be invaluable, so if you don't know her work, please check her out, I promise you won't be disappointed.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thx!! I will check out her work.

[@cameronidk2]

Any thing of real utility will always be a 2 edged sword. I have the utmost respect for Michael levin. As a scientist, as a teacher, as a person and philosopher. when h talk's about drawing animals .. or parts or plants .. than having a encoder sit out the proper stimulus to get cells to do that drawing ... ok maybe .. for some reason i have some doubts.. but its such a new field .. but lets say this happens .. it will be the nuclear atom and the expression of e=mc2 ... which gave us the atomic bomb. what would be the other side of Michael's ground breaking work ? is a question i haven't heard an answer to .. or really been able to imagine my self .. but it has to exist if my initial assertion is true.. growing brain less slave creatures ..not good.. death demons ... ?? Terry Brooks Sword of Shannara .... comes to mind.. John v. you ready for the roll of Allanon the druid to guide humanity ?

[@trukxelf]

ugh this platonic framework is limiting; what about Hegel?

[@howiewhitehouse1202]

"THE PARTICIPATORY UNIVERSE" HENRYK SKOWLIMOWSKI PhD

[@BlairBryngelson]

Commenting for the algo

[@sajid279]

Just as objects of matter travel in space and time... Thoughts and consciousness too travel in mind space or models in the mind with time.. If time is paused there is no movement in objects and no thought just unchanging information.. Desires re like gravity pulling the attention and pain is the anti gravity from where attention wants to run away... Accepting to suffer for greater adventure or being honest to our model of reality... The most important thing for the self or the real I is to exist by all means... We can't walk if our eyes re closed and no surrounding is visible.. Similarly we can't think in a direction about which there is lack of info and no model exist for how to traverse in the direction.. Like we don't always walk sometime we have to swim too...we have to learn how to swim.. Just as the position of a ball can be predicted in time if enough data is known... About surrounding and the ball and there is no outside disturbance... Our thoughts too seem to follow a predictive path... But when one decides to betray his existing model due to desires or some incidence that makes it unpredictive... God created us and he intended us to not cross an intellectual limit as more intellect would cause us to act in ways what we were not built for and the human society would become dysfunctional in lack of one model everyone is sincere to and complete end of mutual trust in lack of predictability... At the end most important thing is to survive mutually... And not make the world go in anarchy with complete individuslism...

[@colorfulbookmark]

How do you think about Quine? Please tell me more about your ideas.

[@sajid279]

@@colorfulbookmark That would cause infinite regress... Read my another comment I wrote about non-dual God...

[@colorfulbookmark]

@@sajid279 I understand. Thank you for response.

[@sajid279]

Non-dual God is time and observer , it can be understood as God not doing anything when time as whole is considered an object ,as everything has already occurred and the universe is just traversing in time with each second already existing... But relative to our time Or ourselves in present, God is creating each next second and since God is observing the present and the past and the future, so God is thinking too or traversing from one concious state to other... No Philosophy has reached this understanding of God and reality... Non-duality just says God is actionless and thoughtless they didn't go further... It then creates another problem that why is God doing things only this way why not some other way, or does even time exist or it just appear s to us because we live only in present... Does this God or universe exist just on a memory device of some other cosmic creatures and they have another time for them.... And the non-dualism is causing an infinite regress... Which is not logical becs the universe exists...

[@Aaron-bd9sj]

I don't think God is real

[@sajid279]

@@Aaron-bd9sj May be we have not understood God... But God is real...how can anything exist.... And if there is no God there is infinite regress... That is illogical

[@ReflectiveJourney]

I am confused if you are affirming non duality or rejecting it. I see a bunch of confused claims. I also dont know what it means to be outside of time and find the whole idea unintelligible

[@sajid279]

@@ReflectiveJourney Non duality means there is one combined existence or God and everything is the same... I added time too in that... God is matter, conciousness and time and the processes in matter is creating conciousness , so everything is just process or a system., non-dual God has no will he does not do anything.... Or more clearly everything happening according to set of laws and so past , present and future everything already exists but for us in present it appears something will happen or has happened... If you understand non-duality you will understand what the comment...

[@Aaron-bd9sj]

@@sajid279 I don't think that follows. The cosmos could also be eternal.

[@ChristopherNFoster]

I know it's unrelated to this video, but I can't help but notice that there doesn't seem to be a lot of non-whites (YES, i KNOW THERE ARE A FEW) engaging this space and I'm just curious as to why they might not be showing much interest.

[@manlikeJoe1010]

Lord knows he's tried. He's had Chloe Valdery, Greg Thomas etc. on. It is an interesting question.

[@ChristopherNFoster]

@@manlikeJoe1010 Oh I know. I'm not blaming John at all.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

I have to say that, for me, I am grateful that Christ has led me to crucify my intellect as an Orthodox Christian of nine years who studies the early desert monastic Saints and tries as best I can (with guidance) to follow their path to Theosis…in the Orthodox Church with her sacraments, especially the Eucharist. I gave up all my intellectual projects and my PhD level clinical research psychology career to pursue Christ alone. I respect what you all are doing but in pursuing hesychia (stillness) there are just too many words. I pray that Jesus will guide you to crucify your intellects in order to possess Him. You all have a lot that would need to be given up in order to eventually acquire an Orthodox Phronema… Blessed Seraphim Rose is helping me. He had a prodigious intellect and put it at the service of the Living God… He who has ears to hear let him hear… Please don’t take offense. 🙏🏻☦️🔥

[@omercora]

None taken, you are just delusional and that’s okay!