CONSTRUCTION SITE: Genie Short-Crank & No-Start

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Check out the Genie PicoScope files, including the TACH signal shared here! drive.google.com/drive/folders/1kEm4iK_KP8zQGFY1XY-KD1tV7pVXSBF3

[@GrifFungin]

Huge respect for posting your entire sequence of trial and error to solve this issue. Too many so called “diagnostic mechanics” only post the success, which leads new guys to believe they are doing something wrong when they can’t solve a problem on the very first try.

[@antonia.5203]

Nice fuse. I remember at my automotive school, they cut one leg of the fuse and put back in the fuse box to simulate a power issue. Good diagnostic and repair of your previous repair.

[@HUBBABUBBADOOPYDOOP]

*"We fix it right- cause we fix it twice"* -Eric O.

[@MrKinyodude]

On the old controller, if its really a 20 year old unit, try replacing the two electrolytic capacitors. When electrolytics start drying up, they can cause intermittent problems.

[@BobPegram]

Good Point! The problem might also have been exacerbated by the previous "fix". What would happen to the electric circuit when it only received power when the ignition was on? Dying electrolytics could be the reason why it worked initially, but then stopped working as the available voltage dropped off too soon.

[@kingofbrutaltheocracy9201]

I was speculating that on a 98 e350, hard cold start. No glowplug relay trigger from ecu for the first 5 KOEO cycles, but it does have wait to start light correct. After it goes, the relay stays powered for correct time for any given oil temp. Glow plugs ohm good, (despite that dealer replaced anyways...) Relay as no voltage drop and good amps flowing. Weird stuff.

[@mr.nobody4900]

I am extremely impressed by Pine Hollow Auto Diagnostic. Dude you are very sharp when it comes to Troubleshooting electronics. Two Thumbs Up

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Thanks for the motivation, Mario!

[@davesage9190]

Ivan: Right from the beginning of this video you could see the tach light flashing way more quickly than I would have expected for the number of revolutions of the engine. Even when the control just blipped the starter and the engine had stopped, the tach signal continued to flash rapidly (see 1:58) (and almost every time it failed - watch the video again). I assume the logic in the PCM says to continue to energize the start relay until it sees the engine running (the tach signal running quickly) and then automatically de-energize the start relay. My guess is the tach sensor is flakey and putting out multiple pulses. - hence the new PCM didn't help. Your other clue was at 25:23 when you disconnected the sensor. The PCM never sees the sensor (i.e no run). SO it's happy to keep cranking it. If the new PCM is working now it may be more tolerant of the flakey rpm sensor signal. I think it will be back for a start stall (safety shut off) when the sensor finally fails and the PCM doesn't see the engine running (as you demonstrated at around 26 or so). RIght to the end you can see the tach signal flashing fast each time it failed.

[@Graham_Wideman]

I agree with this line of thinking. Either the tach signal is flaky, or the module's detection of the tach signal overcounts the tach rate due to the low and noisy B+ supply voltage (though I wasn't clear where Ivan was measuring that crappy B+).

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I have uploaded the PICO tach signal files; link in the description. Take a look for yourself :)

[@davesage9190]

​@@PineHollowAutoDiagnosticsSpare me the effort. What does the tach signal show. I don't recall seeing you measure it on the scope. Did I miss that? I assume there was something to look at there. My point (I think) was not that the tach signal was missing but that it was fooling the computer into thinking the engine was running faster than just cranking speed. OR as mentioned - the computer was not triggering on the signal properly and it was interpreting the signal as running speed not cranking speed. Certainly every time it failed in the video the light (#2) was flashing for some (short) time after the engine had stopped. I guess as long as it's still running - fair enough.

[@JeffreyRJones]

I have to agree with Dave here. As an electronic tech for the last 50 years, I was surprised that Ivan jumped on the module instead of following the questionable tach-signal back to its source. Ivan, you stated yourself early on that the tach-signal wasn't letting the starter remain engaged, and then later disconnecting the signal let it start - both evidence that the tach/tach-signal is bad. So, this time, I couldn't follow your logic of jumping on the module instead of on the tach. Regardless - GREAT videos Ivan. I enjoy watching you think things out.

[@Graham_Wideman]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics I checked out the tach waveform. From the schematic, it's not really a tach, it's the center terminal of the alternator stator (star configuration) winding (which is indeed sometimes used for this purpose). I am a little surprised that the waveform is not symmetrical around mid-battery voltage, but there could be some rationale I'm not thinking of. I note this is the waveform for a successful start, so doesn't actually show what happens during one of the failures. And of course for someone like me to probe further, your shots of the front and the back of the start-controller PCB are just teasers. We can see some of the features (40106 schmitt input buffers likely to clean up input signals, PIC16C45 controller... some other points of interest..), but not enough to determine exactly how the controller digests the "tach" input (or could be fooled). If you have the old unit, post some photos of the board as super-duper double bonus footage :-).

[@bostedtap8399]

Great diagnosis, yes, ref first repair....always tricky/time dependant on effecting a repair under time constraints, no customer will pay you to self train?. But they called you back, so you're giving them good service, and most likely cost effective. Several unpaid days on research is sometimes needed, and unless the vehicle is totally rare in age etc, it makes sense commercially. Great vlog Dr Ivan, and thanks for sharing.

[@bdagle]

Hi Ivan! For 40 years (most of my working life) I have been troubleshooting complex electrical and electronic circuits. I'm been pretty successful at this! In doing this I have always made one universal assumption. That is that (as long as nobody else has messed with it) it worked before I got there! So there is no need to re-engineer the circuit. Instead it is my job to find why it no longer works? Using this basic premise seems to work our very well as the basis for all types of troubleshooting!

[@gregorykellerman3876]

Nothing worse than someone buggering it up before it hits your bench, especially if parts are missing.

[@verajavi12]

I bypass circuits and modules, switches all the time. If I was to fix it the so called right way my customers wouldn't be able to make money of their equipment. I just happened to work in the real world with less than ideal conditions.

[@thebaldmechanichardatheari1124]

Makes a difference when you have the right diagram!!!!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

YES!!

[@scotts6503]

Good job on the repair Ivan. A good mechanic is not expensive, he’s priceless!] ]

[@roberthogue6797]

The fuse would have appeared good from the top because the fusible link was still good and the power would make it to the other side on the top. However checking from under it easily showed the fuse had an issue.

[@davidcarr4991]

Had a similar issue on my daughter's car, all the front lights on one side stopped working. Checked continuity on the fuse, all good. Pulled the fuse, it broke apart as it came out. The fuse socket was full of crusty corrosion which wasn't visible with the fuse in place. So lesson is, don't just meter the top of the fuse, pull it out and inspect visually.

[@bostedtap8399]

Another fault to look out for 🤔

[@Airman..]

Iam into the habbit of checking the feed at the load not the distribution box but how could anybody know without a proper diagram especially with brain boxes

[@tinkerwest]

Despite having no diagnostic flowchart or theory of operations and only a wiring diagram, you've done extremely well. Kudos to PHAD for tackling the job....👍

[@dracul9846]

Sometimes a weak battery may cause the controller to shutdown because of low voltage. Saw it on a DGset.

[@gregorykellerman3876]

I was thinking high internal resistance in the battery too. Oh well, he'll be called back when it gets even weaker.

[@JeffBrown1966]

That is what I was thinking.

[@Airman..]

The low voltage condition is bad as high voltage to the microcontrollers so it may contributed to the intetermittnt starter disengagement Good stuff Ivan you are a brave man

[@fredflintstone8048]

Moral of the story.. Fix it right the first time, don't just jump power to where it's missing. It's missing for a reason. My sympathy for having to work off the wrong wiring diagram. Maddening! Fantastic job of digging into all the clues, and troubleshooting to flush out the problem. Impressive. Thanks for sharing.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Thank you Fred!

[@pookatim]

Regarding your question about testing the fuse in place, I think using a test light may not have revealed the broken lead because you would be pressing down on the fuse. Normal practice is to press the tip of the test light onto the fuse pretty hard. This is a good lesson!

[@nevillegoddard4966]

Brilliant analysis & systematic diagnosis Ive!!!

[@patrickmorrissey2271]

Nice job! Hey, sometimes, you just don't know.... Whaddaya gonna do. Brings back memories... I was on a couple sites like that, earlier in my career... Just about got a 2500 series 4x4 stuck... I was wearing these big overboots, and they'd get so heavy with mud, you could hardly pick your feet up, to walk.... When each foot weighs 25 pounds, it gets really hard... Especially if you're not young, like Ivan....

[@hpelisr]

Yes you would have contact if the fuse is not blown. Well done Ivan.

[@dalebabbitt6185]

I'm still convinced that the module has a connection problem, perhaps a weak solder joint. For instance, the odometer display in my van only worked sometimes. Using a soldering iron to re-flow the SMD resistors on the circuit board fixed the microscopic fractures. I had to do the same thing on the FICM on my 6.0 liter PowerStroke diesel. The voltage specs for the 'key-on", key-off" and "cranking" were off until re-soldering.

[@mikechiodetti6737]

Great that you got the correct wiring diagrams and found the original problem! I don't know how many times I had that problem. Wrong diagrams with the non working unit. Spent lots of time making my own diagrams. That was before you could get information on the Web. Many aftermarket add on equipment gave the wrong or no diagrams. That relay/fuse box needs to be enclosed to protect it. Vibration and bad capacitors on that board equals big problems!

[@walterk1221]

Ivan, I feel your pain! I worked on the very same Genie model (trying) to use incorrect wiring diagrams!

[@stealthg35infiniti94]

As a long time electronic technician, I strongly believe the major problems of that unit is caused by corrosion...I would try coating all exposed metal contacts/connectors/connnectios with Deoxit, dielectric grease or Fluid Film...If you don't, you'll return to fix another "Crusty" problem.

[@arnaldofettuccine5227]

Wow, that fuse breaking where it did.🤦‍♂️ Happy to see you were able to get an updated drawing 👍

[@scotted6136]

I always wondered why I was told to pull a fuse to check it now I know . Nice work as always .

[@jackpatteeuw9244]

Forget DeOxit ! Not "strong enough" for outdoor usage. Pull all the fuses and relays in that block and give them a shot of Fluid Film or a dab of silicon dielectric grease.

[@woodstar109]

Please keep making these on genie, there awesome and help alot

[@kenk3102]

...great video Ivan....love it when you go out into the field...thanks for posting and keep the repair videos coming.

[@kevincampbell8298]

Proper diagrams are so important. As an electronics tech if I didn’t have them I had to make them. Bit of a pain and time consuming but I was paid hourly at my full time gig back then. And I had backups so time permitted. Thankfully for most of the heavy electronic circuits I had schematics available or I could purchase them.

[@DaveSender66]

Again nice work Ivan. For a DIY like myself. I find it difficult obtaining correct wiring diagrams information fuse locations Etc about the vehicles that I work on. Learning process never ends. What I have learned from you is to check for wiring corrosion and repair it wherever I can on this vehicle of mine. TY Ivan.

[@mikefoehr235]

This channel is one of THE very best on KZbin. Ivan...you are a Genie.(s)

[@heavydiesel]

Its possible to have more than one fault giving similar symptoms at the same time. Years ago we had a system that would turn itself off, the display would go blank. First found the mains voltage switch faulty. Then found it had been misswired in the factory, wire was put into the wrong din rail connector, but also the connector had been mounted upside down so the two uninsulated parts touched and completed the circuit. Finally we found it was the sun shining through a window in the morning warming up the control box (presumably a bad solder joint) were upon it would turn off, always by the time we got there it would be working again!

[@nevillegoddard4966]

You did well then getting the genielift going the first time! - Considering you had incorrect information! Maybe, in that year or 2 since, the capacitors, as you say, had deteriorated in their charactistics enough to cause the often intermittent startup? It appears the newer 'caps' in the replacement module can store a higher voltage for longer now, preventing the intermittent start-up. Brilliant analysis & diagnosis Ive!!!

[@davidmelbourne5480]

Microchip based "PIC" processor (looks like a '54) with 1998 manufactured 40106 (inverters) CMOS chip near it. Don't see any monostable type circuit on this board (where caps could dry out and change timing) - but still possible I guess. Most of the timing would be done in the PIC chip probably. Cannot see a crystal or resonator - may use the internal RC to run the latter. Might be worth checking the stability of the VCC (supply) on the board past the regulator (the big caps) to see if it makes sense. Most of the circuitry on this board is signal conditioning and relay/LED drivers. We've all replaced something that wasn't bad - you are honest enough to actually show it - Bravo Ivan!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Great comment, thank you for the insight, Dave! I'm testing the original module on the bench, hopefully will get some answers 😁👍

[@davidmelbourne5480]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Look forward to the answers! If I was writing the software for this, I would be looking for the tach signal to continue x number of times after the start signal was removed. Since the processor is shutting off the fuel, it may be entering a "no start" mode. The problem could also be some deficiency in the engine that makes it fail this test some of the time. The owner may be pushing the button a few times now to get it running without telling you about that. Good luck on this one - rather you than me!

[@arthurfricchione8119]

Good video Ivan. Let's see what happens. Keep us poster. 👍

[@davidpettengill914]

The hole in the bottom of the K & N filter is so you can apply lacing wire to keep the filter from loosening up.

[@willemstreutgers1154]

PCM will shut down at voltage below 9 volts i learned. With the Genie operating in the open i advise to dip the legs of the fuses and relais in some petroleumjelly it keeps the damp/corrosoin out. Check the CCA of the battery. Capasity can be to low.

[@baxrok2.]

Impressive long term case study here Ivan. Nice work!

[@lrdisco2005]

I must admit when I saw it was that boom lift, I was just so happy it wasn't me working on it.

[@DoctorSherwood]

a fuse like that could definitely burn you! depending on which leg is broken, you could either see no incoming power on either side of the fuse or it would appear that the fuse is good and both sides would show power. I'll be removing fuses to check in the future!

[@andrewthompsonuk1]

I would guess that this is one of these things that shows up when the wiring gets older. Interesting to see the scope of the starter solinoid current. I think your module call was correct as they probably improved its resilience to voltage drop outs.

[@SmittySmithsonite]

That thing was a tough one! It's so infuriating trying to fix something with no information. What a difference the correct info makes! That location looks just like my driveway to the new shop (not quite that bad, but close enough!). Everyone gets free mud in their tires and halfway up the sidewall when they leave. Still waiting for the money tree to grow so I can pave the thing. Probably not in this decade ... it'll dry out eventually. 😬 2018? Wow, that went by quick! Could've sworn that was less than a year ago. I can't keep track of time anymore. Amazing what the right diagram can do. I actually fixed a Saturn no-crank (with the correct diagram for once) a couple months back. Made it easy! Except for plastic interior crap that someone else had glued together. Made the testing painstaking at first. Had to call it a night and go at it again the next morning. Won the battle in the end, though! Nice job staying at it and getting it fixed, AND for boldly showing and admitting your mistakes! You're a good man, Ivan! 👍🍻

[@andrewsweet43]

My guess is that the control module is intended for diesel engines as it states, and when it reads the crank signal pulsing really fast (because of the gasoline engine higher RPM) on start, thinks that the "diesel" motor has already started and prematurely cuts the starter solenoid. Try implementing a simple pulse divider (divide by 2) circuit to put in between the sensor and the box and good luck going down the rabbit hole...!

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

But, it worked. Something changed. Your solution will probably work. But then it's not stock and per print.

[@mjmcomputers]

I love these old internationals.

[@toamataafa9463]

Dr Ivan to the rescue👈👍

[@ScottDLR]

I toured the assembly plant for Genie in Redmond Wa. What an absolute hell-hole.

[@neilrampersad4291]

I am happy to see you show your mistakes, great troubleshooting

[@maxsmart5466]

One thing bothers me; the new controller board retained the exact symptom on first start. i would scope the control side of the start relay and also the contact output to verify reliable contacts and find if it is the start relay or not and follow the trail of the short start fault before swapping the relay and thereby changing the fault condition ( a very knowledgeable friend asked me a crucial question;" can you put the fault in your pocket" and thereby proving it is defective? ) that was a classy piece of advice. Very good and lucky find on the 20A fuse with a good repair, building sites can be distractive and sometimes a 10 min. break can focus your mind by reasoning from a distance. If i'm not convinced of a repair the problem lingers in my mind and at some time the penny drops and i find the answer By the way i'm hooked to all your video's, thanks Ivan.

[@turtlezed]

If it was my own machine, I'd probably fit a 10amp push to hold button jump when cranking to get over that problem.

[@unclemarksdiyauto]

turtlezed, a backup emergency start up plan is a great idea if it is something the rest of us would have some issue being able to repair.

[@doctorjohn-burgtekie]

Ivan good troubleshooting. I like the way you stay on a repair till you finger it out.

[@efilnikufecin2004]

new module is different from old module. This can be seen at 4:45 old and 5:40 new. Aside from the different part number, the numbered text is not just a reference for the lights...it's the wiring directions. Item 8 on the new unit says "jump to 7 (gas only)" Item 8 on the old unit says "to key sw (gas only)". The new one has a wire going off of pin 8 to somewhere, cannot see where, but it's not pin 7.

[@kieranthompson1982]

Even though it would show full voltage on top test points on the bad leg side I would have thought a power probe would show open circuit but like you said diagrams are key to follow the pathways correctly or your just chasing your tail at least you found issue that’s main thing

[@jimbe01]

Upon reflection, Parts Cannon May be a little unfair.Considering that the erratic start behavior/performance was still exhibited upon it’s reinsertion perhaps “ aimed/targeted fire” (which DID hit it’s target) would be more appropriate 🤔.

[@norcal715]

Ivan, I would have liked to have seen the tach signal on the pico scope. Hopefully it won't return but if it does please record the tach signal and see if it looks ok. You and Eric O are the best!

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I did! Check out the SHARED PICOSCOPE WAVEFORMS link in the description!

[@adamtrombino106]

Working on those gave me PTSD... lol .. and yes, that fuse would've burned plenty of people.

[@weldingjunkie]

Nice job Ivan, what a ride. Your face “oh crap” the fuse 🤣🤣 happens to the best of us. I like these boom videos they are challenging. Thanks for sharing. You did good.

[@toddsonic]

I don't have a module like that to look at but I would be wondering if there's a relay in the module that normally disconnects the tach signal while cranking. Most people don't realise that relays can be normally open or normally closed. (or in some cases have both abilities in one) It looked like there were a few relays on the backside of the pcb which made me go hmmm. A bypass could have been created externally as well to perform the same function but that would mean altering the wiring and adding another relay to provide the same functionality.

[@JD-iu3vi]

From my 30 years experience as an electronics tech, I would have looked at the tach signal as the culprit. After repairing the original problem of the fuse and jumper wire. It's clear from the video that the tach signal is the issue.

[@JD-iu3vi]

Assuming the cranking amps of the battery are good.

[@hashdfw]

If I understand correctly the problem is it won't crank long enough (sometimes). I would have unplugged the coils, injector connector, or removed the fuel pump power - something to keep the engine from starting while cranking. Then you should be able troubleshoot the short crank issue.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I like this approach! Maybe if I can get my hands on it; would be easy to pull a fuse and do a scientific experiment :)

[@jdtractorman7445]

Quiz question, I think checking the fuse at the top it still would have shown power there as to that point it is a complete circuit?

[@georgegonzalez2476]

It could be a failing electrolytic capacitor on the module. Both on old and new modules. There have been many years of counterfeit capacitors that have gotten into a lot of equipment. Even good ones lose a lot of capacitance at low temperatures.

[@calholli]

Sometimes these will have a low oil sensor, and if oil is low-- it will keep it from running; This may be one step more advanced and not let it run if it see's RPM's while being low on oil. It's usually something simple with these; something related to maintenance, because these things never get maintained by anyone- typically.

[@pantherplatform]

Just got my arial boom lift certification yesterday on a brand new haulotte articulating boom lift. 5533A

[@Andyandcars]

That fuse would check good checking it with a test light because most likely you would be pushing it down hard enough to make contact with each piece of the fuse. And continuity would have checked good from the front of fuse also!

[@Dcs-Brasil]

5:25 oh no!

[@josephwash109]

In regards to the quiz question, testing the fuse at the top test cavities would not have revealed an issue (the light would illuminate on both cavities) since the output leg was corroded off. If it was reversed, and the input leg was corroded off, then the test light would not have lit on either cavity and an issue would be indicated. There may be another possibility to consider in this case, since it's not likely that two modules would have the exact same issue: I noticed that there is also an LED for "Temp or Pressure Fault." Suppose that the module is receiving an erroneous signal that there is no oil pressure or the engine is overheated. That could explain why the module intermittently kills the starter circuit in an attempt to protect the engine from damage. I never saw the LED light, but maybe the module's response time is so quick that it responds before the LED does, especially if there's a wiring issue where there is an intermittent open or short. I'm just making a theory, not fully understanding the way this machine works. Like you said, it's hard for us to fix something if we don't have the proper service information to understand how it's supposed to function.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Excellent thought, Joseph!

[@Nudnik1]

JLG a little better. Genie ok. I always spray wd40 on all terminal ends fuses when service PM for decades now. Salt water marine and construction mechanics fun. There is a product called "Stabilant 22" liquid used on marine and avionics I use as well. I does decrease resistance on splices and terminal ends etc. $70 a tiny bottle. Tzastrovia! Excellent work Thanks

[@Lookingforcompellingevidence]

Testing the fuse, depends what leg is corroded off, if the hot leg was good it would test good on top to ground, if you researched what the voltage drop across the fuse would be under load, then you would suspect an open in the circuit. You would not see a voltage drop

[@zx8401ztv]

i bet the corroded fuse seemed ok, as you applied the tester to each side of the fuse it pressed the fuse in slightly and a short term power was shown. If it plays up again, Connect a relay coil wire to the starter wire, the other coil wire to earth. Use the Com and N.C contacts to disconnect the tacho while cranking. When it starts you let go and the relay connects the tacho. Yes yes i know bodging :)

[@fieldsofomagh]

So many variables on the module board, it's always better to replace it. Customer wise, the price of a replacement is pittance compared to down time lost in construction. Time wise, the parts cannon can be very effective in getting the train rolling again. Having the relevant schematics available are a serious prerequisite to a speedy repair. Anything else is pure surmising and creates more issues than were originally present. Any repair method that changes the basic design of a functional machine must be fraught with questionable results. The amount of interdependent variables in any design is so critical that the slightest change can bring chaos out of order. Well executed video with a successful finale.

[@iamblaineful]

I wanted to see you measure the tach signal while cranking. My guess, and only a guess, is that there is a spike in the tach signal or noise in the signal causing the computer to think you have achieve idle RPM, even for a moment. That could mean a bad computer or a bad tach sensor(crank sensor?) (Hall effect probably?). So a signal capture on the Pico would have helped me decide if the diag was the computer or the sensor.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

See the link to the Pico files :)

[@Walczyk]

Those high voltage spikes killed the capacitors in the module, you can check the voltage rating to the data

[@lawsonexteriorsltd9908]

If you have an intermittent problem, keep on running it until it becomes permanent, then diagnose. Otherwise aggravations ensure

[@williegillie5712]

The dreaded broken fuse wire. Oh well at least you did find it Ivan. These are the videos I enjoy watching for sure. Parts canon and all🤔. Could the starter relay be on its way out? Or possibly the brushes in the starter. I’ve seen a few guys mentioning bad capacitors. That’s a good possibility too especially if they are start or run caps.

[@zeke112964]

@ 12:55 If you'd of tested the fuse from the top it could still be good as long as it wasn't blown the normal way, but since you tested it on the wires it was bad due to the corroded pin being broken

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Exactly :)

[@bluejayoutpost9170]

Nice going Ivan. With the age of the machine it could possibly use all new fuses..and di-electric.on the spades..moisture plays a roll over time.👍

[@everythingbutkoi6898]

Never use di electric on contacts! , the clue is in the name die-electric

[@tyenbreck1]

Should retitle this to *We shot the parts cannon! 🤣 got to love a challenge! Keep up the good work!

Answer to the question: Probing the top of the fuse with the test light would not have indicated that its a bad fuse, the fuse leg is still making contact on the terminal. Maybe by wiggling the fuse could have given some indication.

[@dwoodog]

I think unless you tested some individual components in the module such as transistors or the IC's hard to say. And since no one is gonna do that, IMO you made the good call.

[@tallbrian100]

Must not be seeing a tach signal soon enough after the crank request. The starters on those ford engines go bad a lot, I would have it rebuilt. Scope the crank request and the tech signal and see what the lag is when it starts compared to when it does not start. I think you will see a pattern.

[@ganeshnarayan5505]

Ivan great video. could it be a bad starting switch.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Nope...the LEDs on the module tell you the switch is good!

[@franksoliday5510]

Ivan, Did you scope the tach signal? Most vehicles use a shielded wire to reduce noise that can give you a higher false rpm count. The starter motor itself can produces a substantial amount of noise.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I did. We will have a follow-up episode on this!

[@simonrawle7885]

seen the leg of a fuses rot out quite often on Suzuki bike i starter solenoid over hear in the uk

[@danman9017]

good job.fixing thing and search for the right diagram.

[@billsimpson604]

There's your problem, lady. Part of your fuse is missing!

[@george420]

For the pop quize, I say no. It wouldn't show being a bad fuze if tested from the top, because the break wasn't between the top test points. Now I have a question of my own. What was with the resistor sticking out of the control module at beginning of video?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Good eye! I was experimenting with attenuatung the tach signal off camera 😁

[@bobweiss8682]

Time to reverse engineer the module. Trace the tach input, and see if the pulses from the tach go into an integrator, missing pulse detector, one shot or similar. I'll bet increasing the time constant a bit would help.

[@markamcampbell6340]

good closer on an old problem. are you going to eat the new module?

[@kevinbaughman2307]

Like Vladimir at the end ! That will be a jewel for me later !

[@TheCrazy243]

Nice job! Wow! Look very difficult job.

[@gixer2000]

Checking the fuse from the top would have made you believe the fuse was good due to the link not being broken/melted. Good to see you checking it from the side that really matters. Even a continuity test from the top would have given you bad info. I always pull the fuses to test or from the underside.

[@mechniack]

Ivan kind and honest, 👍💟

[@hatfez]

It looked to me that you shot the parts cannon too soon. I expected you to test the signal at the relay first.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Signal at the relay?

[@unclemarksdiyauto]

Crazy fuse leg broke! Who would have guessed! May have not noticed it if you didn't remove it. Could have made intermittent connection off and on just when you need it to work. Great diag Ivan. And was not that module worth about $250 USD?

[@disarm2k10]

Wow, now that's an interesting one. The pico waveform is fine but a screenshot would be better on my phone for the tach signal. How come this tach light flash so rapidly on crank, this is really weird. Maybe someone messed up when changing the coils?

[@tomsmith29]

Ivan the genie is you !

[@TractorWrangler01]

I'm no expert on these so take this for what its worth. I've seen irratic behavior like this from old relays before. They make the connection from the initiatial slam but can't hold the connection good enough due to a worn out contact or weak coil. Just a thought.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

But it's the INPUT to the relay that is the problem...indicated by LED #1 on the start module :)

[@TractorWrangler01]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics does the led depend on the circuit to be complete on the primary side of the relay? Just thinking out loud...

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Great question. The LED #1 stayed ON when I tried it without the relay in place, and also with a test light subbed in on the control side.

[@TractorWrangler01]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics So would the behavior of the light change if you swapped relays? Could that relay have a open circut on the primary side when load is applied or during a temperature change?

[@jth1699]

The electronic control module has what is referred to as a crank terminate switch that is either defective or the speed input signal into the module is defective, without looking at a print I dont know what the speed input signal is - I have seen some machines use a magnetic pickup - the problem with them is sometimes they get a small piece of metal across the magnetic that will intermittently cause the speed signal to fail... I have made a gillion dollars flying around Alaska cleaning mag pickups on generators. So when you jumped the start relay you proved everything but the controls for the start circuit. The only input is the start signal and the speed input ... the only output is to the start relay. So working backwards you can check the output by testing the start relay at the coil with a simple test light. Then backup to the start relay output at the module - another simple test light test. At this point I would check the input signal from the start switch to see if it was continuous... if it is then there are only two or three possibilities - bad wires or connections and an intermittent speed input .... if you dont find any issues then it's obviously the computer module.. That kind of equipment is always a struggle if you dont have proper info. After about 45 years of fixing stuff for a living I have learned a couple of things. 1st you can't be everything for everybody and 2nd dont try to fix things you have no experience on .... it costs you money every time. So it was a fun video but the learning experience is to stay away from field work on construction equipment. A self employed mechanic only has his time to sell - there is no way you can charge for all the time you have in this job. More than likely you had to put other paying jobs on hold to do the research and other associated time spent on the project. So in final summation just learn to say "no".

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

"dont try to fix things you have no experience on"...I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. If everyone followed this advice, you would never learn anything new and never have any progress!!

[@jth1699]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics oh I'm not saying dont work on anything new or unknown - I'm saying just expect to loose money when you do... so I guess there are at least two ways to pay for education...

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Now this I can agree with! Hands-on work and making a few mistakes is the most effective way to learn. The next time you see a similar problem, you will recover the "educational costs" fairly quickly :)

[@sweetwilliam49]

A good mechanic always watches how he spends his customers money!