JLG Baby Scissor: No Platform Controls? - Part 1

[@tiredoldmechanic1791]

Metal filings build up enough to hold the sensor so it doesn't produce a signal. I've seen it many times. When they started using digital tachometers in trucks, they put the sensor in what was a drain hole at the bottom of the bell housing. Metal filings from the starter drive and ring gear eventually built up on the magnet on the sensor. They later started installing them near the top of the bell housing where there are fewer filings. Many even added a magnet inside the bell housing to try to grab any filings and keep them away from the sensors. Some equipment manufacturers use two sensors so there is a backup.

[@mikepratali5582]

The filings lock the sensor in one position.. doesn't have a chance to change states if it's always sensing the iron!

[@InsideOfMyOwnMind]

You know there are more metal shavings in there like what got stuck to the sensor in the first place. At the E O T D they are going to have to separate the trans/engine and clean all that out, and maybe replace whatever got ground up in the first place or the new sensor will only work for a short time before it gets clogged like the old one.

[@jfresca9125]

I agree 100 percent ....and i bet the bell housing has many more and will effect the next one also

[@bobgall863]

Ivan I think the metal filings were skewing the operation of the sensor.

[@throttlebottle5906]

very possible the metal shavings and too wide of gap combined for it getting stuck, problem now? where did all the shavings come from, how much are down in there falling off and getting stirred again when it runs and revs up? how easy can it be cleaned?

[@fryreartechnology7611]

I do love you go in-depth to troubleshooting problem. Oscilloscopes are friends.

[@satamanschmidt3428]

Ivan, I know you've got this phobia about "No Parts Required" and that's fine when you're working on some broke dude's beater but you've got to change your way of thinking for commercial customers. These guys aren’t going to nickel and dime you if you change a $100 part that’s probably screwed up but might not be, but, they are going to be pissed off at you if their equipment breaks down again. So, it’s always better to throw a suspected part at it. In this case the metal filings at the end of that sensor came from somewhere. Those filings are changing the way that this sensor reacts. That’s the hash you see on your scope traces. You’ve got to find the source of these and determine what’s going on. If the starter drive is chewing up the flywheel that can cause this and, if it is, you’ve got to change out both so that they don’t need to call you back. Believe me they would rather pay you $1000 to get this right than for you to give them a “No Parts Required” fix that lasts two weeks and puts the machine down again. THEY AREN’T HURTING FOR MONEY like the average beater driver is and downtime hurts them a lot more than any bill you’re going to give them since all of your charges are tax deductible as a legitimate business expense. It in reality cost them nothing to pay you, but it cost them plenty to not be able to rent out that equipment. If you’ve got to load the parts cannon do it just as long as the damn thing is fixed.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Don't worry Dennis we'll load up the parts cannon and get er fixed right ;)

[@gbowne1]

"Pine Hollow Equipment Diagonostics"

[@kevinbarry71]

I love construction company; here's a piece of equipment it's out of gas and has a dead battery. We don't know what's wrong with it.

[@heyinway]

Give 'em some credit...at least it is not laying on its side !

[@ATSNorthernMI]

Yeah, they run it out of gas and leave the controls on. Time to go on break guys and then we play cards and go home because the equipment is junk. They still get paid too

[@cinquecento1985]

and then guy comes with his laptop says "no problems" and hooks up a lot cables talks for himself for hours and fixes it. amazing.

[@michaelalfano5243]

Used to set these for production generators - bottom sensor out on flywheel tooth, mark with black marker at 12:00 then back out to 10:00 and you are set.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

That's a very small gap!!

[@heyinway]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Its not the space shuttle or Nascar...long as its not rubbing its happy.

[@nevillegoddard4966]

Very intereesting job Ivan! Lets see how this job gets completed in the next one!

[@JVerschueren]

11:23 Beefier gas powered soldering iron required; I recommend the Weller Pyropen Downside is the Weller gas it expensive and you're more or less forced to use it. Lighter gas will clog it when it's cold out (not that hard to fix, but fiddly). The the catalyst in the tips is also a little fragile, so you'd need to avoid dropping it. But, in terms of soldering outside, it beats the pants off any other brand I'm aware of.

[@kc360awareness]

Watching the smoke from the solder rise up towards the camera..... just like doing it in person. The smoke always goes directly to your face. Lol Yet another great video Ivan.

[@superlee63]

Darnit Ivan. I don't want to wait until tomorrow. Great video. Great cliffhanger.

[@petermartinez5573]

Ivan what did you do close shop and go to work full time for the construction company? I guess these guys have no clue what a preventative maintenance program is.

[@xboxbml]

Dude...I’m assuming you’re a permanent employee there now?..lol

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I'm on site a couple times a week usually 😁

[@porky7753]

Ivan, i enjoy your content of your thought process 👍

[@mattcat231]

for a bench test, throw a bunch of shavings on the sensor and see what the readings are, and then leave the shavings on it and swing it by the vice

[@marscruz]

At least construction crews are still able to work... if their equipment isn't broken.

[@boomer9900]

You should put a gear on that grinder on your bench and see if the sensor works at high rpm. Just a thought.

[@mattcat231]

my guess is the metal shrapnel was keeping the sensor pulled down, once cleared off, it was able to read correctly. i once had this happen on an old K-Car (Plymouth Reliant) where i drilled out a broken screw for the distributor cap and failed to clean the hall effect pickup

[@josephwash109]

I'm inclined to believe that the metallic flakes on the sensor tricked it into keeping the signal pulled down. At times, the flakes would redistribute, causing the sensor to work OK, but when they rearranged to the right spot, the signal got pulled down again, stalling the engine. I'm also interested to know if a hall-effect sensor should latch in it's last state. I have observed two sensors for the same application that behaved differently. One (the new one) only changed state with ferrous metal nearby; the other (the old one) would remain in either state after the ferrous metal was removed. I think a properly operating sensor should only change state (pull up or down) when it senses the ferrous metal. If not, there's likely an intermittent open in the signal circuit of the sensor.

[@annaplojharova1400]

My experience with these hall sensors: They tend to attract the iron filing mess, at the same time that mess shunts out the magnetic field and so shields the sensor from the monitored wheel. Plus they tend to calibrate (automatically, as the thing is running, it recalibrates every power on) on the periodic nature of the tooths on the sensed wheel and this calibration tends to become confused when the filing is moving there erratically, making the contaminated sensor not working after a while and needing a restart to work again. Met this problems in cars in practically all places they are used (crank shaft, cam shaft, even as ABS wheel speed sensors): Failing when contaminated by magnetic junk (steel filings, rust dust,...), get fixed when cleaned out. And I would also look on why they got contaminated in the first place. It looks like the starting ring or starter pinion or some bearing there (so the shafts are off position) are shot...

[@schigara]

Had a 2006 Kia Spectra and the cruise control used the rear wheel speed sensors. The cruise would not stay engaged more than a few seconds. I pulled the rear speed sensors and they were covered in metal filings from the brakes. I cleaned the sensors and brake cleaned all the metal filings from rotors , hubs, etc. and install new pads while I was there and never had a problem with the cruise control for the next 45k miles I owned the car.

[@xerxes456]

I thought once when I tested an old style VR sensor that produces it's own voltage to use a cordless drill and a rubber cap with a slit in it on the drill chuck to get a signal if this makes sense. Great way of testing Ivan this kind of lift will make you earn a decent living, I work in the construction business and this lifts have some problems a lot of times.

[@sewing1243]

Eric O at South Main Auto just did a video on a no run auction car that had the crank sensor pushed out of the block by rust causing the gap to be too large between the sensor and what ever was supposed to be passing by it to cause it to function.

[@AP9311]

Ivan, more of Genie repairs!! Wow. You are lucky to have easy repairs!! Whooohoooo! Bench testing! Nice, im not so sure that ckp sensor is working correctly. Maybe the dirt, relector wheel not reading the sensor. Or the sensor is bad cuz it works sometimes. But lets see part 2!! See what the result were!

[@mike_svt93]

Like other comments, the metal shavings are suspect, but I think replacing the sensor is still a good call. The question is how long before the new sensor develops the same issue. It's like fixing the symptom and not the cause. If this is the case, you'll have to tell the powers at be the larger underlying problem to cover yourself.

[@for2utube]

Every time a lift’s broken it’s parked pinned to the side of a building. Hmmm. BTW, try putting some heat in the sensor, see if malfunctions.

[@jkbrown5496]

Looks like a harsh environment proximity sensor. I've only played with the capacitive type. They didn't have signal power. I wonder if that is a magnetic proximity sensor that perhaps now has residual magnetization that impedes the reed switch resetting?

[@frankwebb7507]

I think you have identified a likely cause of the problem with the metal filings clearly shown on the end of the sensor. Given there is a permanent magnet in the sensor the sensor works on the principle of "variable reluctance", reluctance being the magnetic analogue of electrical resistance. The toothed wheel or tone wheel is bridging the air gap between the centre permanent magnet and the surrounding core with the pickup coil wound on the core so the static MMF (magneto motive force) in the core will be modulated by the changing air gap, if there is sufficient ferro magnetic filings material fouling the air gap then the magnitude of the change in MMF will be reduced until it is below the threshold of the internal detector. In some process industries where the rotating part must be of a non ferromagnetic material then a ferromagnetic slug is inserted in the rotating part at one location and a non-ferromagetic plug inserted to cover the slug to prevent corrosion. Of course you cannot rule out an intermittent internal fault/connection, it begs the question where are the steel/iron filings coming from? MMF = NI = (H in air x length of air gap )+(H in the core x mean length of the core)

[@kevinbyrne4538]

I await the conclusion of this diagnosis with bated breath.

[@ryanjohnson4239]

Its essentially a magnetic switch. All that metal crap on the end with mess with the switching of the sensor. The metal comes from the starter wearing on the ring gear.

[@richardcranium5839]

that thing is always dead when you get there the battery could be bad internally. also check the ac ripple out of the alternator. it can be confusing the circuit board. those metal shards very well could be a problem too.

[@JoeSmith-cy9wj]

The "junk" stuck to the sensor was probably metal particles because the sensor probably includes a magnet. These could interfere with its operation.

[@rfbedell347]

The metal shavings found at the end of the sensor maybe be the same situation as putting the sensor next to the vice.

[@Hammerdalestate]

I had the same problem with a crank senor on my wifes car. Metal shavings made it intermittently lose the signal. Cleaned the sensor and all worked fine.

[@HUBBABUBBADOOPYDOOP]

Why is their critical equipment such neglected junk? Weak/dead batteries Strained, broken wiring old engine oil & filter Evidently the employees don't care.

[@throttlebottle5906]

brand new lift tomorrow, will be in that shape after 6 months, used, abuse, and always outside.. rode hard and put away wet (no race horses were harmed) lol

[@n9wox]

Weak battery could have been from so many starts with short run time.

[@vettepicking]

This is every business......where have you been

[@JVerschueren]

They parked it with a buttload of crap on the platform. These people are just sloppy and take no pride in their work. Ok, it's never going to be squeaky clean on-site, but trash belongs in the skip, not on the scissor lift.

[@ATSNorthernMI]

@@JVerschueren What we hated was loaning out our lift to a construction company in hopes they return the favor by giving us work but instead they leave drywall mud all over the place with dust and pieces of drywall and corner bead all over the place and ran the batteries dead instead of plugging a cord in they just leave it out in the rain where it died. What ticked me off about the whole thing was I had to change out wallpack lights on the side of a building off a 30' extension ladder.

[@willemstreutgers1154]

Ivan start a special maintainance company for scissorlifts. Offer a subscription fee for regular maintainance. They are easy to convince if they calculate the many lost hours due to "sudden death" of their equipment. Oh, i see the metal particles on the sensor cleaning will help to function again, sensor is NOT broke but only to much rust and so in the bell housing, maybe you can blow some out through a hole. Clean the bell housing from rust and fixed. The rust particles causes a "short"in the magnetic field of the sensor common faults with old rusty outdoor neglect equipment/cars.

[@AJ-wj9ij]

I have concern about metal filing in bell housing something is wearing out fast and seems you will have same intermittent issue again as filing grabs on new sensor , I have faith you will get this my friend

[@Hammerjockeyrepair]

something to remember on some diesel machines, they get crank pulse from the alternator and if the belt snaps or alternator dies, youll be running in circles until realizing this lol. Not the issue with this one apparently but just something to remember for the future on others.

[@johnwilliamson2393]

A loose belt will cause a shutdown also. Took me a minute to find it, and tightening it fixed the issue.

[@baxrok2.]

Yeah, I agree, it should work. We'll see. Thanks Ivan!

[@Nudnik1]

Always check LP to Gasoline switch is correct often bumped by workers

[@Nudnik1]

Large plugs pins get dirty on bottom control box alot also. Boxes get beat up by rough work.

[@SmittySmithsonite]

No shortage of work at that construction site! Not a bad thing, lol. Can't wait to see what the issue is with this one. I'm sure the metal filings didn't help things as far as the signal goes. Kind of a crappy design there. It's just out in the open inside there to pick up anything and everything.

[@alananderson8619]

Just an FYI since Ivan and many of us have used it: BBB no longer offering TSB and wiring diagrams as of 1/31/2020... :(

[@johnwilliamson2393]

Carmin lite looks good.

[@jackpatteeuw9244]

I keep wonder what is the "technology" used inside the sensor ? Could it be variable reluctance with a "zero-crossing electronics" detection circuit that pulls the 5V ? (Variable reluctance sensors put out a sine wave that is proportional to engine speed. While cranking (very low RPM), this signal is very small. Usually they require shielding on the wire (or at least twisted pair) from the sensor to the computer to prevent RF from triggering the computers "zero-crossing electronics".)

[@zx8401ztv]

I would put a small led and 150 ohm resistor in series on to long wires and stick them into the back of the sensor power pins (remember leds have polarity), and use that as a visual indication of sensor power. Oh i forgot to say ' Run away quickly, its a bloody pain in the butt ' :-D

[@hpelisr]

Keep at this fix, you will get it.

[@williegillie5712]

Tomorrow will bring more answers, if the sensor is still functioning then maybe it was just a little dirty or possibly bumped out of adjustment

[@heyinway]

Multiple issues possible....Bad ground. Failing relay. ECM internal connection bad (cold solder joint). High internal resistance in battery. Voltage, but not correct amperage. Alternator output. High resistance in wiring due to trying to jump start with wrong hookup. Starter not disengaging sometimes...all that debris from bendix gear ?

[@stephenlutz123]

I bet you can make crazy money if you get a reputation as the guy who can fix those things in the field. They HAVE to work or the job doesn't get done on time. Like trying to cut lumber and the saw is broken.

[@rscelectrical7091]

Put it back in the machine minus the metal filings & you'll probably find it works ok, also check the wiring from the sensor to the controller. The filings are wiping out the signal.

[@Paul1958R]

Ivan, I think that dirt/metal stuff on the end of the sensor was inhibiting it. God bless Paul

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

We will see in Part 2 😁

[@notyou6950]

What happened to the safety foot switch?

[@dinesh3488]

Hi, i have jlg 450Aj boom lifter, I have a problem of accelerator is not working, can u help me..

[@fieldsofomagh]

Sensor seems to be working on the bench. The 5v ref would need to be present along with a good earth. The connections need to be verified on all 3 wires of the sensor. However, it always pays to think outside the box and expect the unexpected. There's no business like construction business !!

[@XEatmorechicken]

The crap on the sensor should have been a giveaway. Especially when it was intermittent and got worse. The rector is probably covered in crap from construction....

[@daleroundtree4802]

where did you get the 2 kio ohm dial resistor from

[@abdulb7178]

may be fly wheel full of junk leading to no crank signal Can you spray the fly wheel with brake clean?

[@JSchrumm]

Time to take a deep breath and get to work with Ian.

[@josemanueltanquinabajana8809]

what is the Part number of analiser

[@throttlebottle5906]

you should have mounted the sensor solid, and used a cordless drill to rotate a piece of metal(allen key) past then wiggled the wires and plug around seeing it it failed. of course you could go overboard and make a toothed wheel lol. wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't some weird harmonic vibrations going on shaking it around also

[@samcripes3046]

Metal flakes piled up rubbing on the fly wheel cause it to keep pulling down.

[@real_arbuckle]

16:10 Spacing, Tone Wheel or Wire. - Do I get extra credit for making three guesses?

[@josemanueltanquinabajana8809]

when move the joystick to fwd the fork lift shacke all time

[@nickharding7713]

if it is a 5v pull down Hall sensor, wouldn't the bench tests have proven that the sensor was bad? It was resting at both low and high voltage? I thought Pull Down would always rest at High voltage?

[@chillybrit2334]

All the ones (not many admittedly) I've had experience with certainly rest one way or the other. Not seen one that latches in either state until triggered again... but who knows what is inside this particular one. Hall effect type sensors come in a couple of types that I am aware of but logically I'd expect this to just be a switch type - I also know my knowledge is confined to my minimal experience so who knows :/ In this instance I'd be more concerned about the build up of filings stuck on the sensor..... something is getting ground away.... first guess would be whatever tone ring the sensor is supposed to be picking up on... maybe all the triggers have been ground almost flat for e.g. Bring on Pt 2. :)

[@nelsonnarciso1791]

I'd readjust the gap. Cut a piece of cigarette pack paper stick to end of sensor. When you screw it down ot will stop at paper and when it first start it will knock the paper off and Bob's your uncle.. done few of these here at the shop. Good luck

[@mikechiodetti6737]

Change the sensor, charge or change the battery, change the oil, if needed. Gees, this sounds like the rental company's job!

[@josemanueltanquinabajana8809]

how can set the joystick reostat

[@dalebabbitt6185]

I'm pretty sure the JLG would test positive for covid-19. Anyway, I'm thinking the metal shavings must be dancing all over the place when the target teeth are whizzing by at a million miles per hour. That might be messing up signal. The low battery might be messing things up. Is there a gap spec? The metal shavings could also be interfering with the gap. Just some suggestions.

[@throttlebottle5906]

yeah, probably a pound of them in the bottom getting stirred when it runs/ moved around, I wonder how hard it is to clean out. I'd assume there's an inspection pan like a car?. also what does the hydraulic pump run off of? is it via a coupling at that end of crank? possibly some failure going on there

[@ATSNorthernMI]

Metal filings all over the sensor. That thing is gonna need a flywheel and starter soon.

[@davide.s.9880]

Could it be messed up because of what some call rust jacking? Rust or contaminants build up and cause a no signal or intermittent lose of signal? I'm just guessing now lets see what you find.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Didn't see any rust on this one...

[@davide.s.9880]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics You did pull out a bunch of metal shavings. Maybe see if you can get some brake kleen and wash out the hole and bump the starter and repeat the washing out of the hole several times till clean.

[@butchromig824]

metal filings keep the sensor from working!

[@RobCarstuff9112]

Ivan; Do you still have your other job?

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Hi Rob! I'm actually working for myself full-time now :)

[@wyattoneable]

This will be interesting.

[@DANBED20021]

Thank God that you're Skin & bones! LoL other wise you wouldnt have gotten through that opening! LOL

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

HAHA you're right Dan!

[@gonzgarr1592]

Ivan i'm a little dissapointed at you that you did not check ground keep up the good work enjoy your videos

[@fenceman53]

Of course the employees don’t care . This lift is just a tool to get them up to do the job where I hope they care, If it don’t run call Ivan is there motto.

[@granprixgtp23]

Totally unrelated questions is there a toilet paper shortage ther in your town 🤣😂

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Yes of course. But I'm from the USSR so that doesn't bother me one bit 😂😂

[@tecnaman9097]

Before toilet paper poor ppl cut up newspaper. I can still remember. Anyways, that's all some newspapers are good for these days lol.

[@windynabbie]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics My youngest is a PSU senior and still in Happy Valley .Her first stop the liquor store yes I'm a little proud. :)

[@Anonymous-it5jw]

Ground Control? Call Major Tom.

[@SuperDd40]

Make shure your scissor lift is level or the platform will not work

[@josemanueltanquinabajana8809]

at the center

[@northernpatriot9078]

Are you in construction now lol

[@mikefoehr235]

I have to say it...sorry....that crank sensor has a virus.

[@dwoodog]

steal all the construction companies toilet paper. But as for the issue, that was a lot of iron filings on the sensor.

[@tompeterson3210]

Charge them for lot's of diag not new parts.👍

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Charge for EVERYTHING lol!

[@davidd8435]

You’re there because carpenters are not mechanics. Your wife must think you are a mad scientist.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Haha sometimes it's frustrating because she assumes that I can fix anything in 5 minutes 🙄

[@scotty5775]

My gosh, if you had children these scissor lifts would have paid for 2 college degrees,

[@donnierobertson3088]

Good

[@CRAZY_VIDS07]

I can tell you what's wrong with it but I will have to charge for it...LOL

[@undaya]

i would bet , most of the time,it is a mechanical problem

[@jws3925]

What are you doing messing with this stuff. You are better.

[@Gary_Snook]

Hey

[@throttlebottle5906]

again, lol!

[@deweydodo6691]

bad place for a magnet to work .

[@abdulb7178]

for youtube algorithm

[@aleskyfinis1025]

Wo

[@kennedy67951]

That solder job would have been quick if you had used a little solder flux or paste. You should change some of your work habits in my opinion.