Continuous Insulation Obstacle: Heavy Outswing Doors

Corbett and team had reached a dead end with a 300+ lb. double french door installation on ThermalBuck in 2" of exterior Rockwool, until Michael Dunseith (www.greenjobtrainingcenter.com/) gave us an epiphany that saved the day, though not the way we expected.
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[@jonevans5489]

Brilliant and thank you. Excellent information.

[@HomePerformance]

👍🏽👍🏽

[@townsendliving9750]

So I bought a shop for my mechanic business a few years ago, it was a cabinet shop in the 80s and still had all the equipment in it. I built a shed using all the methods you and matt risinger are teaching so I could practice for my future house. I had this same issue. There was this machine that was basically just a massive industrial router, I used it to build custome jams that were notched around the thermal buck and also notched around the sheet rock and integrated the trim, so the jam now slid in from the inside of the house. My doors are 7' tall x 6 feet wide each. Just home made barn doors, but they wiegh several hundred pounds. This is an over kill example but customer jams is absolutely the way to go

[@HomePerformance]

If only we all had access to such wonderful machines

[@MrItalianfighter1]

That's exactly what I did with my french doors for my patio. I removed the brick mold and turned the jam over to install it as an inswing. The only other way would be to custom make your own jams wide enough and set your screws at the framing, not into the hinges, but back in further. I'm renovating my entire house pretty much solo and with a day job, I jist don't have the time to custom make all the jams for doors and windows. 😅

[@ryanwilson5340]

Won't you have an issue with the threshold being meant for an outswing door? Seems like an opportunity for water infiltration.

[@guytech7310]

Exactly an exterior out swing door should only be used if its sheltered under a porch or mudroom. Second the door hinges need to be fastened to the house framing (studs). The very thin and often flimby door jamb framing cannot support the doors and it would be easy for some to break in or perhaps the door will just blow in during a strong wind if its fasten to that foam window buck material. I noticed in the end, the doors were mounted in-swing. so I don't get the purpose of this video.

[@charleyandsarah]

@@guytech7310 That was the purpose, he just mounted it inswing to get around the issue

[@HomePerformance]

Exactly, it was just a highlight of a specific issue with oversized outswing doors in exterior insulation conditions.

[@charlesbrown4689]

I would have made an exception and ran some framing out to just shy of where the thermal Buck stops. Cut back the foam, reframe opening. This giant door is a major focal point of the home. 1/2” foam for thermal break on that extended framing. Air seal it well. Most home heat exchange is through air flow so I’m not too concerned with that tiny spot being less insulated. Besides it’s a giant glass door. Or I would have just gotten the 6” door.

[@adamglens1705]

If you had made to R/O 1.5" wider / taller you could put 3/4" plywood all around the frame, but the full depth of the wall. You can screw the door to the plywood, and then screw the plywood to the framing. You will need to do a jamb extension on the inside to cover up the plywood.

[@HomePerformance]

I guess I'm still weirded out at the thought of fastening a bigass door to 3/4" plywood, and not to the lumber framing of the house.

[@Odinhaus]

@@HomePerformance then go 3" wider and use ripped down 2x10 or 2x12 to buck out the door opening, and attach the door jambs to the 2x material instead.

[@fromtheburbstothetetons8826]

Sometimes the performance has to take a back seat to the safety/strength of the envelope. I would have cut out the thermal buck in those places where it needed to be screwed and replaced it with wood and just lived with a bit of thermal bridging. I would have extended the jamb to the inside, so it looked the right depth.

[@HomePerformance]

Good points, if I'd been a more experienced builder that might have occurred to me.

[@mattbowers5342]

Interesting problem, I hope the manufacturers are paying attention!

[@HomePerformance]

Thanks Matt, yes, they are now aware of the issue

[@shujin7024]

Keep it coming :3 I love those video, It's interesting to see how you're building a house without cheaping out on anything. Much love from canada ^^

[@HomePerformance]

Thanks!

[@beurky]

I had this issue on my build. I had 2" of exterior rockwool. I didn't use thermalbuck, I ended up building a buck out of 2x and plywood to get the depth I needed. Not the best for thermal bridging, but they're solid, including the French doors. Just spitballing, I'd say another solution would be notch out the thermal buck at the screw points of the jamb and add in sections of wood bucks/blocks same depth as the thermal buck. Screwed inton the framing it isn't going anywhere. It slightly compromises the thermal bridging but it provides a good compromise of insulation and rigidity.

[@HomePerformance]

That works too! Thanks buddy

[@ryanwilson5340]

I wonder if there would be a reasonable way to put intermittent wood blocking, say, at the hinge locations, but retain the thermal buck around the rest of the opening. That way you could have the strength you needed at the major stress points, yet the insulation where you don't need a great deal of mechanical strength? Just a thought.

[@beurky]

@@ryanwilson5340 yes that's exactly what I was getting at.

[@ryanwilson5340]

@@beurky Sorry, there was more to your comment that I hadn't read. Looks like we were thinking right along the same lines! Seems like a reasonable experiment that needs doing. Perhaps even the manufactures of the thermal bucks could somehow integrate solid blocking at common hinge locations, or, have options for 3-hinge and 4-hinge doors.

[@beurky]

@@ryanwilson5340 ya. Thermalbuck is an excellent concept. I wish I had the opportunity to play with it before. I would be concerned not just with doors, but larger operable casement windows as well. But I think next build I'll design innie windows, which avoids this problem... And I suppose the need for the thermalbuck altogether

[@superspeeder]

Extending the jam with biscuits and glue would work. You would still end up with your hinges screwed only into the jamb and have to finish over the exposed screw heads of the screws fastening it to the wall, but that’s a small price to pay to get back the 36 sqft (or more) of interior space you’ll need to keep clear for the doors to fully swing inward. Question: how does inverting the doors affect the glass package as far as the Low E coatings go? Usually high performance glazing has a very specific set of coatings on specific surfaces. If it’s an issue (I’d ask the manufacturer) you may be able to remove the IGUs and turn them right-side-out. Either way, it’s nice to see video’s pointing out the challenges of building modern high performing housing with parts that haven’t evolved in decades. Keep it up!!!

[@HomePerformance]

Thanks! In this case, inswing beat the alternatives. Low-E is bi-directional in the case of all our windows, so they flip with no consequences for radiant heat bleed.

[@ryanwilson5340]

If it were my project, I would consider either building a custom jamb assembly (which is doable in my case since I'm a carpenter/woodworker), or spending an extra $250 to buy a new oversized jamb assembly.

[@ccvideotech]

Agreed why not just replace the jamb?

[@HomePerformance]

No manufacturer makes a jamb that’s perfect for this assembly, it would be a custom milled job.

[@greg925911]

But if homes are changing the technologies then the industry should do the same

[@HomePerformance]

Right on

[@micahwatson9017]

Home Performance - sorry, but that is incorrect. Most manufacturers will provide a wide range of jamb depths. I can order jambs and sills at 8 1/4", which would be used for a 2x8 constructed wall. BTW, your out-swing sill is not designed to be used in-swing and will leak water into your structure.

[@rheuss1]

You can order that door with any thickness of jamb and threshold extensions

[@HomePerformance]

The point here is not the thickness of the frame, it’s that outward swinging doors must be placed at the utter outside edge, which is hanging in space if you use exterior insulation.

[@rheuss1]

Not hanging in space if you pour a bump out underneath or if on wood frame use a pressure treated spacer board the thickness of the exterior insulation.

[@nathanshirai9661]

Hi Corbett. Might a custom hinge with extended plates (to keep the screw holes aligned with your RO framing, but with more distance between the screw holes and pin column to send the point of swing out past the exterior cladding) have been a possibility?

[@HomePerformance]

Whoa, I guess so, but the thought never occurred that such a thing would be available. This solution fit our needs just fine, but if that’s a real thing, you should show somebody.

[@greg925911]

I thought Mat R. Had great videos, but it's nice to know someone will actually explain the problems that occur in a build, still can't wait to see how the rain screen workes out along with the bug screen an how this will work out with the Rockwool on the lower half Will there be a drop edge between the basement an wall assemble

[@HomePerformance]

Thanks Greg! Stay tuned, yes, we’ll be addressing all of the above.

[@greg925911]

Sweet, my wife an I are starting our new project in April of next year here in Wisconsin thanks for you an all of your team's hard work

[@PWDxxx]

your door sill is now slopped into your building assembly. Basic building practice is to always push water away from the building, starting at the footing all the way to the roof. Always control the water before the thermal.

[@HomePerformance]

The threshold of the door is not sloped inward, and the bottom of the rough opening isn't either. Don't know what the difference is with doors you use, but flashing and sealing would seem to work 100% of the time, unless I'm misunderstanding your issue.

[@kevinbloomquist2637]

I have recently researched a similar situation but the house had 4 inches of exterior insulation and my solution was to treat it like an outie window and install oversized strap anchors. Of course you would want to limit the number and size of the straps to get the minimum thermal bridging. I also like the idea of adding a custom internal jamb.

[@HomePerformance]

Yes, all that is cool, not super practical for mainstream building, which will incorporate continuous insulation to meet code in most states. We’ll see I guess.

[@kevinbloomquist2637]

Sorry this is a little long winded. I agree that 4 inches of insulation isn't mainstream yet. My ideal wall consists of r22 exterior insulation and r13 interior insulation which allows for 70 degree with 40% RH interior and 0 degree exterior yet condensation occurs outside the sheathing layer. Any wall that thick is never going to be mainstream. Nor is an agreement on the type of exterior insulation, which is a different thickness for equal r values. Also an exterior insulation that thick would keep the entire door frame in the confines of the exterior insulation. That is why a strap anchor would be able to be ordered for any length, width, and gauge to grant the installer the flexibility of which strap anchor is best for the job. Don't get me wrong, I do not think strap anchors are the "best" solution. Also with another comment you made saying that there is a large overhang, that solves the big concern most of us were having which is water management. Keep up the good work and know all we want you to have is a fantastic and healthy home.

[@ryanwilson5340]

At the risk of sounding like a PITA, I'll ask the following question... On the rare occasion that a builder is presented with this situation of wanting to install an out-swing exterior door, how much sense does it make to worry about the thermal buck (as opposed to padding out with lumber) when there is six feet of glass between the jambs? Even with triple glazed French doors, if they are even available, what are you looking at for an R-value? R6? And at $5K-7K for the doors, I'd rather have them exactly how I want them, never mind the small energy penalty for leaving out the thermal buck. Better yet, put some rigid insulation inbound of the door jamb and do the thermal break on the inside of the door framing, instead of on the outside? I totally appreciate and value the discussion and furthering of building science. Thanks for providing the venue for dialog!!

[@kevinbloomquist2637]

@@ryanwilson5340 I think your thoughts have merit when thinking of practicality. Thermal bridging along a simple buck wouldn't be the worst idea. However with all the hard work and effort being put into the rest of the wall, a wooden buck would be a downside. Also if the french door in on the south side of the building then the solar gain received in the winter would be the reason for such a large area of glass.

[@ryanwilson5340]

@@kevinbloomquist2637 That's true. I live in Portland, so don't really ever consider winter thermal gain (we rarely see the sun between October and April!). :)

[@haidafella8651]

Would it be too ugly to put another layer of boards dadoed to fit all the way to the closed door, and dropping down so that it extends the door frame all the way to the edge of the house frame. You’d lose about 1/2 “ all around in the doorway, but should be a solid enough connection to the frame?

[@willflynt3625]

Hi! Thanks for sharing your process. I’ve learned a lot. Has anyone reached out with other ways to do this? Thanks!

[@HomePerformance]

Yes, Will, most people just suggest getting a new door jamb and threshold.

[@willflynt3625]

@@HomePerformance Thanks!

[@taylorbespoke]

I though the more fancy glazing coatings tend to have a side that is intended to face to the inside and a face that is intended to face to the outside? So, won’t changing the intended orientation cause the wrong side of the glass to face out?

[@HomePerformance]

It’s the same coating here, on the two faces. Interchangeable.

[@lee-johnson]

Hopefully you wont have a problem with rain coming in at the threshold. Outswing doors do a much better job with this. Also, how is the thermalbuck going to handle foot traffic at the bottom?

[@NeoKnight9]

Lee Johnson. Also wondering about the foot traffic at the bottom.

[@HomePerformance]

Very thick stainless steel plate, you can see in the final shots. Also, there will be an enclosed deck for 20 feet, no rain will ever touch it.

[@michaelpiecuch7313]

Would a egress casement window be the same problem with the extra hardware and being heavier than your standard window?

[@ABZD019]

What manufacturer French Door was that, where you were able to still achieve the air tightness level you wanted? Was it also from 475?

[@HomePerformance]

It was from a partner at Alpen Windows, called ProVia

[@rheuss1]

You can’t use an out swing threshold as an in swing unit it will channel water into the house.

[@HomePerformance]

I can’t imagine why that would be

[@rheuss1]

You’ll find out.

[@HomePerformance]

Caulked as instructed under baseplate. 20 ft roof overhang. Manufacturer gave thumbs up. We will not be finding out. Oh well.

[@HomePerformance]

Caulked as instructed under baseplate. 20 ft roof overhang. Manufacturer gave thumbs up. We will not be finding out. Oh well.

[@H1Hummer]

I'm not a fan of in Swinging Doors like that. Probably would have been better off just to replace the door frame.

[@chineseredneck1211]

Arent your door finishes not the wrong side now? Why didnt you just make a "structural" thermal buck out of pressure treated wood and use longer structural screws?

[@HomePerformance]

FYI, the door is finished same on both sides, and as stated, there will be a roof extending overhead. No worries. Didn't like the options for making the buck with wood, esp. since we could only fit 1/2" ply without doing surgery on the RO

[@eugeniustheodidactus8890]

Make wider custom-jambs/frames?

[@HomePerformance]

The hinge still would sit out in foam.

[@jasonjohnston5373]

Home Performance use 2x framing in place of the thermal buck at the hinges. In the grand scheme of the house, those six locations likely won’t make or break your home performance.

[@HomePerformance]

Good point

[@helmanfrow]

I think as a rule, if I had to make the doors open flush and had no time to find a fancy solution then I would have erred on the side of structural integrity. Doors are a compromise on your thermal envelope as it is. So you lose few more Rs on the buck. So what.

[@vansage2691]

lucky this wasn't a commercial building where life safety says exit doors must swing out. Would've done the same thing and had to live with the fact that the main operating door is now on the wrong side compared to out swing. I guess you're left handed....

[@jasonjohnston5373]

It’s a French door so the doors operate the same way. And most residential exterior doors swing in that I know of.

[@HomePerformance]

Actually, the right side door is now the primary, so maybe generalizations don’t work well in this case.

[@bestbuilder1st]

This just looks like it was poor planning in the design phase. Outswing doors have always been considered a better option for weather protection. Using the excuse that they would be "hanging out in space" would just be an oversite somewhere in the system that should have been addressed long before the door arrived. FIipping the door around is a "hack" not a fix, in my opinion.

[@boboconnor1403]

Just order your doors without a brick molding.

[@HomePerformance]

That’s not the entirety of the problem, Bob- outswing doesn’t work