ContraPoints Goes on Chapo | Chapo Trap House | Episode 264 FULL

[@WindowsXPFrog]

God, I love Natalie. She is one of the few people who got me out of this angry anti-SJW trap I was in,

[@sillygoose3136]

Hope you include yourself on that list!

[@WindowsXPFrog]

Seth Wegener d’aww ❤️

[@Evernia6181]

Natalie is a Mosesse!

[@WindowsXPFrog]

@Ari Goldstein Brilliant argument. You've changed my outlook on trans people just based on that. Wow. -___-

[@SolarJakee]

I still can't stand SJWs, but I love Natalie all the same.

[@edward2962]

It's an interesting take that Ben Shaprio represents a "revenge of the uncool kids" scenario to his fans and there's probably something to that. But what's funny though is that in those youth comedies from the 70's and 80's, Ben would have been one of the antagonists. He would have been one of the rich snobs who belittled the heroes of the film.

[@pedrogomezid]

edward2962 isn’t he just that irl?

[@edward2962]

@@pedrogomezid True!

[@sergios4071]

Isn't that what these uncool kids want to be too? As a way to defeat your enemy and take his position of power, just like an abusive father might raise violent kids

[@Evernia6181]

Shapiro looks like something out of a Troma production.

[@リンゴ酢-b8g]

@@ConceptHut you forgot 'mangina'

[@TheMiels]

Infinity war is no longer the greatest crossover of 2018

[@VIAl1]

Im like 666

[@elizabethbennet4791]

ooooh good one hhehe

[@mrlassotool]

Infinity war is the biggest crossover between American military complex and hollywood. Funded by them.

[@coreygolphenee9633]

The worst 3 hour film every made

[@coreygolphenee9633]

@@mrlassotool god I cannot stand everyone that thinks these Northrup Grumman Audi commercials are high art its disgusting

[@thealsoperson2372]

Contra is one of those rare people where the more you hear her talk, the more intelligent she reveals herself to be.

[@TheControlBlue]

I don't know about that. She is making efforts (and I'm being courteous using 'she' here) unlike the close-minded leftists around her, but she showed multiple she can't hold much other to the other forces out there. I heard her critique of JBP and it was far from a world-shattering, barely scratched the surface of what JBP talks about.

[@harpoonlobotomy]

@@TheControlBlue Pity you're not making the same effort she is. 'Courteous'...

[@Pemulis1]

I dunno that it took me any time at all to appreciate her intelligence. The first video I saw of her was the Incel one and I was instantly hooked. She really broke down an uber-bizarre phenomenon in a brilliant (and also, importantly, compassionate) way. The headspinning part about her (for me) is watching her early videos where she was an epicene, funny, kind of awkward guy and then watching her become the (in my opinion) naturally beautiful (natural in the sense that she didn't appear to be relying on anything but a hairbrush and a pretty dress) woman I saw at the XOXO festival (on youtube) in Portland. It's kind of affected my viewpoint in that it's hard to believe that someone could make that change that well without there being some strong inherent impetus in that direction pretty much since birth. i used to think that there had to be some element of delusion/pathology going on with trans people, now I'm thinking I might have been (maybe even 'was') wrong.

[@Uejji]

@@TheControlBlue Barely veiled transphobia, blames others for being "closed-minded."

[@Snooper]

contrapoints is dumb as a rock though

[@BiancaTallarico]

Also love Natalie's vids being so colorful. It's like political insight but with LSD visuals.

[@WangleLine]

politics on drugs is fun, I guess!

[@MycelialBoy]

That’s what attracted me to her videos

[@リンゴ酢-b8g]

it makes for some gay distraction, doesn't it?

[@noahconklin5065]

@John Hillman just make sure its not nbomb! if its bitter its a spitter

[@jewtubesucks666]

white ppl will really see a color and be like "this is LSD visuals"

[@ShadowPa1adin]

It's really funny when Golden One talks about his favorite fantasy books ("The Witcher Cycle" by Andrezj Sapkowski and "The First Law" by Joe Abercrombie) because of how little he understands them. The Witcher books are strongly critical of ethno-nationalism and racism, regularly soapboxes in favor of reproductive choice, and the hero dies defending minorities in a pogrom. War being ugly and unglamorous, failsons advancing up hierarchies more often due to privilege and coincidence rather than merit, and capitalism driving global war are re-occurring themes in "The First Law."

[@heavyhands1383]

Not to mention that Glokta, whose internal monologue essentially makes him the conscience of the first Abercrombie book, brutally tortures a member of his own guild because he doesn't like the guy's blatant racism. First Law also heavily criticizes imperialism.

[@azuleyes2000]

@zyzz Liberal... Sapkowski wrote the witcher in the 90s, when being a marxistin Poland was REALLY not cool. Although he's definitely a feminist, which has never been cool - not back then, and certainly not now... so, maybe... But yeah, the most obvious theme of the witcher is anti-racism, so it's really baffling how it's his favorite book... My guess is he never actually read it. He just wants those fantasy-hipster points ("I luuuuv the witcher... but NOT THE GAME")

[@KiraDaBeastNY]

@@azuleyes2000 As someone, who never read the book, but looked into the book, and played the games, yeah it seems Golden One doesn't understand The Witcher.

[@matthewmalpeli]

The more I'm exposed to the thoughts of the golden one the more I'm inclined to believe he understands very little about almost everything besides working out.

[@nerag7459]

Right wing Italians were really into Lord of the Rings. Needless to say they missed the point.

[@giansideros]

The funny thing about the soy drama is that despite the lack of evidence that soy has any significant effect on sex hormones, there are actual things that feminise men, alcoholism and obesity do indeed actually alter the male sex hormone profile so significantly that these things do cause gynecomastia and are very well understood and are taught in clinical textbooks. Yet there is not one single case study where gynecomastia was found to be caused by consumption of phytoestrogens or anything related to disturbed homeostasis, yet you don't see these right wing "facts over feels" type hypocrites bemoan the ills of alcoholism or obesity, unless they're fat-shaming women for political expediency.

[@MonMalthias]

You know, it is interesting to me how phytoestrogens even managed to become a "thing". Study after study shows that red crocus or soy phyto extract or whatever the next hippy menopause "cure" is effectively placebo, yet those "supplements" keep flying off shelves. Then every now and again you get some kind of storm in a teacup about soy boys. I mean, I think this cultural myth has become so socially embedded now that we may never see the end of it. Good for the supplement makers, I suppose.

[@sevenman9672]

I'd wager most of them despise drunkards and obese people, but not for reasons of feminisement!

[@MonMalthias]

@@sevenman9672 One of the disturbing trends that I have seen on both the left and the right are that on the more extreme ends there is an obsession over purity. For those on the Green Left (I hate this framing because it implies that Greens are in fact socialist when in fact Green ideology is intrinsically conservative and romantic) you have an obsession over food purity and living purity. First there were the pescaterians. Then the vegetarians. Then the "organic only" dieters. Then the ovo-lacto-avoiding vegans. Then the "raw" vegans. Then gluten free and lactose obsessors. Then the "paleo" vegans. And now every other permutation of dietary restriction that goes against any tenet of science of diet. The _only_ thing that nutrition and diet science has turned up is that calorie restriction seems to extend lifespan a little bit. Not enough to the point where vaccines or other public health institutions would not have a larger effect. And certainly not to the point at which the claims of eating more restrictively somehow provides health benefits over and above any other balanced diet. Then you have the "living purity" obsessions. Going back to the land. Buying local. Going off-grid. In effect trying to fight against the industrial revolution, by exploiting the tools and surpluses that the industrial revolution has produced. A solar panel, one of the core technologies for going off grid, requires polysilicon refining using Australian metallurgical coal, in Chinese polysilicon furnaces, using silver from Europe, rare earths from Mongolia, and of course marine diesel from the Middle East to ship it all from the source ports, to the factory, to the consumer. There are layers and layers to the hypocrisy of purity that it can only be explained by naivete. Of course, the "living purity" obsessors are not just confined to the "Green Left" anarcho-syndicalist communes. There are of course, off-grid, survivalist, minarchist militias of the far right that are deeply suspicious of "the government". Of course when confronted with, say, their vast collection of firearms they would always say that all of their guns are ATF-compliant and that they are entitled to their liberties by the second amendment (which is a government artifice). They might be deeply suspicious of minorities and despise immigrants, even though their firearms would be made and assembled in factories, in the US, using minority labour so as to ensure that their next AR15 build comes down on the south side of $1000 instead of being over $2000. They would be perfectly happy with Lithuanian contract SS109 5.56mm ammunition or even buy cheap-ass Russian Wolf Ammunition for their plinking while that people don't "buy American" any more. They might despise the obese and drunkards for a lack of discipline in their life choices while pushing for deregulation of firearms "cooloff" periods. Of course these obsessions and anxieties over purity then spill over into outright racial tensions. Embracing the low costs that minority labour brings to the service sector while denouncing refugee intakes as a Judeo-Islamist New World Order conspiracy to dilute the blood purity of the white race. Claiming a "great replacement" despite the hypocrisy of living in a country in which their ancestors were the original "replacers" of Native Americans. Both purity obsessions have immensely damaging outcomes. I suppose the difference is that the damaging outcomes of the extreme left, damage developing countries the most, like the EU pushing for a neonicotinoid ban and GMO import ban from countries south of the Mediterranean. Most industrialised countries could probably tolerate a 20-30% lower agricultural yield from going fully organic farming. Developing nations trying to get international approval for their own varieties of BT crops would have their export prospects severely damaged, in comparison. For the extreme right, the damaging outcomes manifest in the form of white nationalist terrorism, with the McVeigh bombing being the most well known. They manifest in soaring profits for people smugglers and increasing immigrant and refugee deaths in transit. And perhaps more worryingly, the globalised export of this most divisive and dangerous ideology that only amplify the woes of the developing world.

[@SpaghettiReynolds]

ironically the chosen beverage of the alt-right, milk, contains actual real mammalian estrogen, as opposed to phytoestrogens

[@rwatertree]

MonMalthis There really isn't anything discordant about the rightwing purity obsessions you mentioned. Complying with the laws is pragmatic. The greater irony would be for someone who is anti-government to be locked in its jail. Most think that the Constitution is merely a list of pre-existing natural rights and only appeal to it to those who buy into the legitimacy of the government. Being a racist, ultra-nationalist doesn't preclude one from being economical. Goods have no race but people do so letting the former cross the border but not that latter makes sense for one concerned with racial purity. In fact limiting the supply of low skilled labour and potential welfare recipients to 'shelter' working class co-ethnics from both excessive competition and immigrant ghettoes makes sense from a racialist perspective. It would be a small sacrifice of profits by business owners in the name of racial solidarity. Knowing that a race of people can be and has been replaced should make one aware that it could happen to ones people. Remaining blithe or in denial of the possibility is a sign of hubris, not caring about or hating one's race. I doubt that you would have written something so thoughtless if you had black nationalists in mind instead of white ones. P.S. Modern Greens aren't conservative in anything but flora and fauna and Socialism is itself a Romantic Era idea so there's nothing odd or out of place about Greens being on the left. They are as anti-business, pro-public ownership as any mainstream socialist.

[@Uejji]

The mass pivot from anti-theism to anti-social justice really was quite weird.

[@MaxOakland]

Uejji Yeah i would have expected it to be toward SJW ideals

[@Exgrmbl]

It's not weird at all.

[@ConceptHut]

Atheism turned into atheism+ and pissed off a bunch of atheists who didn't want the atheism+ nonsense that is about as draconian as radical forms of Islam.

[@blakchristianbale]

ConceptHut remember that time Atheism+ supporters started throwing people off buildings? I don't

[@ConceptHut]

@Nyk - Yea, because Punch A Nazi and other worse statements and intentions don't exist...

[@DownfallxInsides]

It's so interesting how Ben Shapiro's whole shtick is "facts over feeling", but in reality his facts are skewed to accommodate his feelings of just not wanting to be a decent human being to people. because it's going to make him FEEL who knows what.

[@MaxOakland]

Lora Marinova I think that’s very interesting too!

[@ryanoshea7145]

What cracks me up about Shapiro is that he is a religious Orthodox Jew, which is fine. I think that people should be free to practice religion. Heck, you can even think I'm going to hell by the precepts of that religion, but you can't tell me that facts are the be all and end all when you worship your sky daddy. As if there are any "facts" that support the existence of the Judo-Christian god. I don't really care if you believe other people's behavior is a sin, but don't pretend it's because you value facts over anything else when you also practice a religion that requires faith in an almighty being for whom there is no objective evidence of existing. He's just a hypocrite and an ass.

[@wintersong6911]

@A A Wow, I'm shocked, really. It's almost like rhetoric is an effective tool for convincing people or something.

[@リンゴ酢-b8g]

shut up and make me a sandwich

[@lutherblissett9070]

@@リンゴ酢-b8g wow dude you're such an alpha.

[@SilentEmilie]

"astrology for straight people" oh my god

[@saiikik2727]

Straight people have the same astrology as LGBTQATYXZ people

[@NIHIL_EGO]

@@saiikik2727 No, they don't have the Sapphire and Magnolia signs.

[@BBoyd-bt3hy]

So glad to see Natalie kill it on these different shows recently like Michael Brooks/Chapo, she's right up there with them when it comes to the best leftist voices out there imo...

[@warmlycalculated390]

Easily, well said.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

which epi is CP on Michael Brooks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@qfromqanon]

Although I am not the biggest fan of the aesthetic of her videos, she is definitely an incredibly positive voice! The left needs more Natalies with the wit and ability to take the clowns on the right down! + her knowledge of actual philosophy as opposed to the lame namedropping the right often does is so refreshing.

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

@Django Fett please link me because i am lazy and dumb

[@highlonesomed]

I'm glad she does podcasts too. I've been subbed to her for like two years, and its been crazy watching her channel (and herself) evolve in like every way. I had completely forgotten that started as a socially progressive centrist lib. Now she's taking on capitalism and nazis. And somehow making it fun.

[@TheBlarggle]

They told me not to get used to Natalie because she wont be there normally, but I couldn't help it. Adopt Natalie as a full-fledged member of Chapo Trap House. Make her a regular.

[@Child_of_the_lie]

She's too good for chapo. Supposedly left wing edgelords.

[@UsernameInvalidTHIS]

@@Child_of_the_lie This. The Chapo gang are primarily comedians, and there's nothing wrong with that. They make funny observations ("hot couch guys") but pretty weak analysis. See: their discussion of antinatalism. I actually think the political stuff stifles their comedy. Natalie on the other hand seems to be able to seamlessly meld the two.

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

She's too centrist.

[@intoximacated]

@@Child_of_the_lie You're saying that Matt and Amber are edgelords...?

[@tonycampbell1424]

The meme is complete. Memes are over. Thus we conclude the internet. Put up the chairs, turn out the lights, lock the doors. We're done here.

[@PyrrhosHans]

it spell maymay

[@douglasbacon8382]

Chapo understand internet meme. Chapo laugh. Ha ha. Chapo better than internet.

[@jesseferrargoesoffkingmode5952]

@@douglasbacon8382 The internet is awful, it's not hard being better than the internet.

[@douglasbacon8382]

Internet bad. Jesse Ferrar Goes Off King Mode throw rock at internet.

[@jesseferrargoesoffkingmode5952]

@@douglasbacon8382 If I could throw a rock at the internet, I would throw 12 rocks.

[@reallyidrathernot.134]

"Just having a friend in the room" me: "yeah haha" continues to watch video of one frame.

[@TheChumm]

Tabby go on Chapo

[@seef4966]

I want a 1v1 ep featuring Tabby vs Amber. 5 rounds in the octagon.

[@sudevsen]

Smash

[@Komnen0s]

Realtalk, when tf are they going to add Felix and Tabby to Smash?

[@grief_hammer]

I totally understand the appeal of someone who presents themselves as a "champion of logic and reason". Undoubtedly this is how people like Hitchens got my interest when I was a younger chap. However it is infuriating that Shapiro's iteration of this is simply a ruse- frequently sleight-of-handing his own ideology (religious moralism) into the debate as an assumed set of 'correct' values. He is every bit as moralising as the 'sjws' he reacts against, and this goes un-noticed by his audience because what they actually care about is having their biases confirmed, or just the appearance of strength and confidence.

[@grief_hammer]

@HEAVY SYSTEMS, Inc. OK yes I agree, I just used the 'champion of logic and reason' line to sum up the kind of role he attempts to occupy. Perhaps it would have been better for me to have taken his 'facts don't care about your feelings' bit, where he would be contradicting himself (with the essentially non-factual worldview) in a much more literal sense. However I feel my point generally stands- the faith-based arguments are there, and they are disguised as 'truth' in some sense (usually slipped into the argument us unstated premises) and this fools people.

[@grief_hammer]

@HEAVY SYSTEMS, Inc. Whilst I'm no post-modernist, I do agree that one's access to fact is fallible and behind one's senses, which produces bias and unreliability. But I do think discreet fact exists in reality, darkly though we see it. One of the many reasons why I think it dishonest to portray oneself in the way Shapiro does, especially to then have one's next point be contingent on a morality which assumes laws dictated by a supernatural creator. I honestly don't know how he gets away with it beyond it simply being what his audience already think and want to hear.

[@MonMalthias]

@@grief_hammer The most clever lies have a kernel of truth. That is why Shapiro or the Daily Shoah are successful and convincing to those without a narrative frame or social frame within which to make sense of their views. One can say an entire sentence that is wholly truthful, but the _spin_ on that truth - the framing, what facts are presented, which ones are emphasised, which ones de-emphasised - that is how you can get away with saying that you are being truthful and yet still be misleading people. Look up Bellingcat's work on examining why people become "red-pilled" or Kekistan supporters. These are people that are relatively socially isolated, or awkward, looking for meaning. They may have some discomfort in their life, see some social trend that is confusing for them, they are looking for answers. Up pops Shapiro's videos on KZbin's algorithm that Google totally isn't biasing towards white nationalism (cough) offering simple answers to nuanced questions. Then the algorithm spits out channels like Sargon of Akkad or any other of the fashy personalities and down the rabbit hole they go.

[@ernststravoblofeld]

Hitchens had a beautiful command of the language, and a fearlessness that was cool, even when I didn't necessarily agree. I have exactly zero understanding of the Shapiro thing. He doesn't speak well. His voice is grating. He talks about logic, but constantly appeals to emotion... There's just no There there.

[@MonMalthias]

@@ernststravoblofeld As I mentioned, it's the KZbin algorithm. We are consigning how we obtain information, how we obtain entertainment, to a machine learning algorithm that makes its best guess as to what people want when they type in certain topics into the search menu, or just be browsing the suggested videos. I presume that through search engine optimisation or just cross promotion, what tends to happen is that a lot of the alt-light or alt-right videos tend to pop up in suggestions. This happens also when one types in search topics that are controversial at the time - you'll see a lot of conservative youtube personalities pop up as results. www.bellingcat.com/news/americas/2018/10/11/memes-infowars-75-fascist-activists-red-pilled/ There has also been several controversial topics that have served as right wing, "red pill" springboards that the neo-fascist movement have made much hay upon, such as BLM, Gamergate, and so on. Basically the topics that the identity politics have revolved around for a while, made tempests in teacups, and then faded away. 4chan, Alex Jones, people like Sargon of Akkad, Ben Shapiro are named as factors in people becoming more authoritarian conservative over time. The common thread, seems to be conspiracy. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipm5eZRjo9WJhas Knowing Better explains how and why people want to believe in conspiracies right now, even if those conspiracies are highly racialised and neo-fascist. The Anglosphere is going through a lot of neoliberal restructuring right now in the wake of the 2008 GFC. Wages are not growing consummate with inflation. People are overleveraged with debt. Job competition is getting harder as economic growth becomes moribund or austerity really starts to bite into middle class savings. People are looking for meaning. Looking for enemies. Of _course_ up jumps some ideologues that are happy to exploit this opportunity and ride it like a rented mule. And this is fanned on by extremely destructive identity politics that misguided left liberals are jumping onto for their next social justice kick. Except that instead of "raising awareness" these left liberals are raising fascists that are disgusted with the double standards and confused as to what is the correct social move to make. They clam up and instead of becoming more accepting, they react against the sermonising and haranguing of the misguided left and begin to seek out views that promise a return to the way things were. Only, these voices are profoundly fascist. Thus, the red pilling, the Kekistan memes, the /pol/ HauptSturmFuhrer exhortations for the formation of right wing death squads, the people following the Trump unironically and ascribing to his populism. Neoliberalism created the fallow ground. Social justice ploughed it. We are reaping the harvest, and it is not pretty.

[@jasonburleigh7851]

Ugh I needed this so much, especially after her interview with Michael Brooks. Nothing against him but the discussion format's just infinitely more fluid with you guys and it really allowed her to open up. Totally made my day.

[@Yt-jc5sj]

I think we need more Trans people to giving cis people dating advice. They've seen both sides and their insight is invaluable

[@effluviah7544]

I'm two years late in responding to this, but I'm trans and I love telling cis people how to fix their shit. Lemme know if you need any trans expertise, legit I am willing to hear you out and do what I can.

[@Yt-jc5sj]

@@effluviah7544 you're WAY too kind thank you

[@coreygolphenee9633]

Gay people in general got it figured out way more

[@bongodave13]

She really is a great advocate for the left. Smart, funny, playful.

[@dynamicpenguin55]

@Ari Goldstein yes, she's a woman

[@jaspershepherdsmith9047]

@Ari Goldstein goddammit dude, log off and calm down 😂

[@milascave2]

bongo: Yep. And she isn't afraid to make fun of the sillyer aspects of the left, either.

[@リンゴ酢-b8g]

a man who thinks he's a woman. your advocates are more phucked up in the head than your ideology

[@milascave2]

I'm quite certain that you have never watched a whole video of hers. Thinking like yours is what she changes on a daily basis. Listen, watch, you will be entertained, and you might learn something. I mean, unless you are scared unless you are not man enough.

[@Dylan-hy2zj]

Keep pulling people out of the new right wing movement.

[@MaxOakland]

Dylan Adams Lets learn how we can do it too

[@jarilocromlech1257]

@Mourning Star the harder they push for this, the more end up being redpilled. It's a religion for these people. This is the end result of the KZbin atheist movement: these people are just evangelicals without the Bible. They still desire to ram their shit down everyone's throat. They want to be in control. They want supremacy. They want to be the arbiters of right & wrong and to live as social parasites because art & poetry don't afford a lavish lifestyle in the current system. Fuck them.

[@truedarklander]

@@jarilocromlech1257 nice meme bro, did you get it from 8chan?

[@リンゴ酢-b8g]

@@truedarklander no. from crime stats

[@truedarklander]

@@リンゴ酢-b8g you don't even know what I am answering to do you?

[@RipTheJackR]

Has Hbomberguy been on the show? If not, go get him! :) Edit: And ofc; Natalie is as usual - great :)

[@jacemiller9017]

He said on stream that he considered it but didn't plan on it. Wanted to focus his image on games stuff

[@Rebazar]

Hopefully they can convince him eventually. I think they'd have some really good conversations.

[@PanarchyTheater]

That obnoxious pedant should definitely go on Chapo. He'd fit right in.

[@warmlycalculated390]

@@PanarchyTheater You just broke my irony scale, person picking fights in a comment's section on KZbin.

[@PanarchyTheater]

@@warmlycalculated390 I wouldn't have cared if you responded at all.

[@dakotan.2610]

the comparison of incel forums to pro ana tumblr was literally mind blowing for me. so accurate,

[@dakotan.2610]

i was wondering, “where have i seen this brand of self loathing before?” damn. now i know.

[@annekmacd]

Dakota yes, i agree. i’m in the pits of it right now and it is the worst.

[@dakotan.2610]

Anne MacDonald i’m happy you’re self aware tho. i’ve been there more times than i can count and i’m proud of you for being able to recognize when things are bad. ❤️ i’m sorry you’re struggling.

[@annekmacd]

Dakota thanks, I’m getting the help i need right now and it’s been life changing. I’m only 15 and I really have so much to live for

[@harpoonlobotomy]

Same. As someone who used to be in that world, I'd never put the two together but it's dead on.

[@TonyHightower]

Natalie is absolutely aces. What a great conversation this was.

[@Crowley9]

Everyone should check out the Golden One. He's like a political cartoon parody stereotype come to life.

[@kakibackup2koujo612]

As someone who could be called alt right, i can only agree.

[@joelv.6209]

Watching him play Skyrim and calling every rogue mage he killed a feminist will never not be funny

[@pathocrat]

@@kakibackup2koujo612 Don't give up hope. One day the gamers will rise.

[@Crowley9]

So dedicated is he to Sweden that he decided to leave the country.

[@Rebazar]

HBG did a choice video on him

[@Stand_By_For_Mind_Control]

Natalie is fucking ON POINT. In fact, this is the most on point I've ever heard this podcast. Just remember, back in 2007 you could trash religion and not be immediately greeted by some fuckwit dork saying _tips fedora_ . What simple times those were.

[@artemismoonbow2475]

She nailed it again. I don't go into hero worship and this is not that, but Natalie articulated what I try to live and do as well as a trans woman. We fight against structures of power and the trans role is to throw a wrench in everyone's assumptions. Masculinity is not evil...power and structures of power to maintain dominance is. Femininity is not weak or contrived, it is a part of our humanity and we all have it. Spiritually, being trans is to be a bridge builder, it is to be the jokester or the Loki, it is to be the human that lives passion and "debauchery" yet to have an insight that is more "pure." Sorry girl, this isn't me worshiping you, just me getting it out. :)

[@grmpEqweer]

@Mourning Star I thought they were being Jungian.🤔

[@geraldinebton7677]

The great KZbin algorithm took me to a Contrapoints video for the first time a couple of days ago and I have watched a dozen of them since.

[@sin2pi974]

Geraldine Bton I’m honestly jealous of you I want to watch them all again but for the first time

[@nuclearcatbaby1131]

The algorithm loves her.

[@BiancaTallarico]

I friggen love Natalie. She is very intellectual. Her videos espouses so much political philosophies. Loved her being on TMBS too. Michael Brooks is another one that espouses a lot of political philosophers. I wish I studied deep under the surface as these people. All I have is The Communist Manifesto, Kapital, a book on Che, and a few Nietzsche books.

[@sevenman9672]

You have to start somewhere, and that's a fine start. I recommend 'The Mass Psychology of Fascism'.

[@josephineblum5506]

A really good book written by a literal, actual nazi is Political Theology by Carl Schmitt. It's actually full of very good and useful concepts. Alain Badiou's Essay on the Ethics of Evil (something like that) is dense but good.

[@Confucius_76]

Follow 'The School of Life' on KZbin, they summarise all the major political philosophies in an intellectual way :)

[@willshogren1987]

You're doing fine.

[@deadleavesretro]

Innuendo Studios videos should be mandatory viewing in all schools.

[@matthewmalpeli]

Time to crowd dump guest demands for Natalie on The Joe Rogan Experience

[@mindlander]

She would blow his audiences minds! It would be great.

[@milhousevanhoutan9235]

Joe would never have her on. He puts on a facade of being centrist but he'll never have an intelligent persuasive leftist on his show to discuss politics.

[@DoppelgangerJ]

Milhouse Vanhuotan He's had Kyle Kulinski on. ...well, I wouldn't call him intelligent, but he is persuasive.

[@hazeld2018]

@@DoppelgangerJ I think that's the point. Lol I could say alot on youtube as a platform but kyle doesnt really do anything special with his space and thats not unnatural for those who go on rogans show. They all have a similar....style, lets say.

[@matthewmalpeli]

@@DoppelgangerJ Intelligence is a vastly overrated (not to mention, narrowly and unhelpfully defined) characteristic to be endowed with. But in the cast of Karl, he would struggle to be persuasive if his linguistic agility was poor and deductive reasoning faulty. Not that that's any guarantee. Just listen to Ben Shapiro. I'm reminded of something George Carlin once said. "Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that." I don't think Karl Kulinski is in that bottom half. He's no mug, put it that way.

[@SolarJakee]

"Sure they deserve being berated, but that's not going to help, is it?" Natalie DESTROYS entire SJW ethos in ONE SENTENCE. Seriously though, thanks Natalie for being an actual reasonable voice on the Left. You are sorely needed right now.

[@NyJoanzy]

People who fight for social justice make up a whopping .5% of people considered SJWs. The term just seems to mean 'badmenolike person' if taken only by the context it is used.

[@that_pac123]

Ben Shapiro is definitely not the facts man.

[@jasonloader8149]

I, for one, am grateful to the KZbin algorithm leading me down the right path. I discovered Natalie today via Chapo and watched her Jordan Peterson video - it's truly educational and enlightening. I learned more about why I despise the fraud - and I'm a 60 year old white guy living in an English village, the archetype of an intransigent human.

[@ETYPEJaguar38]

The funniest part of Natalie's channel was when the Golden One guy called Natalie a "Slaanesh Daemonette". How can he or his ideas considered serious by ANYONE outside of very specific subset of nerdy guys?

[@GWNBF]

this is what it’s like when worlds collide

[@happyhappy85]

I remember the atheist KZbin movement and how smart it made me feel. Then atheism went out of fashion and they started discussing politics. And ohhh dear. I was surprised to hear that many of my beloved atheist "rationals" were right wing or "centrists" scoffing at "SJWs" and feminism. I thought to myself "this is just wrong"... I didnt know why but it felt wrong. The people I thought were rational, collected and smart were in fact none of those things. They were stupid, irrational and unthinking. They had been blinded by everything telling them they were smart because they were owning the Christians and the Muslims. Then people like Hbomberguy, destiny, Contra points, garret, Shaun etc came along and they gave words to my concerns. They confirmed why I felt so uncomfortable with the direction the new atheists had gone in and I love them for it.

[@ladycheyne5607]

I was shocked and a little hurt to see so much racism/ prejudice/ bigotry in the KZbin skeptic sector. I was a black, Southern atheist woman married to a white man with a biracial child and I thought I finally had a happy place on the internet. Damn, was I wrong 🤣

[@willshogren1987]

Well we like you on this side of the KZbin spectrum, Cheyne

[@ShadaOfAllThings]

Chapo go on Contrapoints

[@anathematic5083]

39:50 That surreal moment when you hear about a yoga studio shooting and realize that was your home town.

[@Komnen0s]

While I've never been into CP's campy and theatrical sense of humor, I find that she's great at making extremely specific observations about weird niche subjects, like _why_ incels are so neurotically fixated on the width of their "canthal tilts." She has a knack for articulating things that we all sort of intuitively feel about these "manosphere" guys but we have trouble putting into words. A former friend of mine went down the incel/redpill path and I noticed that he slowly adopted many of the same gloomy and fatalistic tendencies CP goes over. I just had to cut off contact with him after a certain point because he was so intensely negative and he had such shitty, reactionary political views that it actively stressed me out everytime I saw I had new messages from him.

[@rexthereptar]

6:45 I disagree with Natalie; Trump 100% panders to Christianity. He was signing bibles in Alabama last week.

[@WeDwellinaFiefdom]

I felt odd about that too. I think Pence does more of the appeal with his anti lgbt record. Trump’s ban on trans service also helps get votes from “christians” who care waaay too much about that sort of thing

[@copperlapislazuli4156]

Great episode. I'm happy to have discovered your podcast on Spotify. You guys are a breath of fresh air in my feed, just like contrapoints!

[@sarajanewebster5321]

Mama bless! First time I actually got off reddit to listen to this podcast. It was fabulous!

[@AhegaoEinstein]

“Yeah how do people watch 2 hour long videos” Natalie says as she is editing an over 2 hour long video😂

[@NorthwestMariner]

I looked up Mr Dapperton and it was exactly what I expected lmao

[@breem2446]

I got about 2 minutes into two separate videos and I just couldn't continue. He sounds so purposefully ignorant and it's disturbing how angry he is. And then I read the comments and I had to get out of there.

[@LeakyBellows]

The Golden One's content is absolutely hysterical. It's this incredible mix of Fascism, pointedly non-homoerotic twitching of the biceps, and uncomfortably literal interpretations of fantasy novels. It's like watching someone who defines themselves as an "InCel" slowly coming to terms with being a Chad.

[@GWNBF]

OMG climate change by contrapoints! you heard it here first y’all.

[@MonMalthias]

I just hope she doesn't fall into the incredibly misanthropic Green trap of energy austerity, anti-growth, anti-development and "global thinking, local action" that really boils down to Not In My Backyard-ism. Or fall into the trap of hectoring with the science or scientific consensus. What I have found in discussions of climate change with people is that people who are sceptical are _not_ in disagreement with the science. In fact they might even be more clued in on the science than your average orthodox Green who reads only blogs and news articles. Some might have even read the IPCC assessment reports. I know I have debated someone who did. What they disagree with is often not the _science_ but the _methods_ of climate mitigation. And I would actually agree with them. Post Kyoto, post Paris, and after twenty *(Twenty!)* Councils of Parties, despite 1 _trillion_ dollars of global investment into so called "green" energy and despite almost 3 decades passing since Dr James Hansen spoke to Congress about climate change being an existential threat, we are very much sticking to a business as usual emissions trend and wind and solar _still_ represent less than 1 percent of global primary energy. Meanwhile, hydro and nuclear, the two _most_ proven technologies and the two most _effective_ technologies humankind has yet devised that are low carbon and that _have_ decarbonised France, Canada, Sweden and Norway, remain marginalised or outright opposed by Greens. And yet year on year there is sermonising about lack of political will (1 trillion dollars, grid priority dispatch, tax break schemes, direct subsidies, EU carbon trading is lack of political will?) and "fossil fuel shills". 2016 there was a stoush between Christopher Clack and Mark Z Jacobson that captured EnergyTwitter for a while. Last year it was palm oil destroying rainforests. This year was Hambach Forest being cleared for lignite in Energiewende Germany. All this time and there has been very little talk about progress. Instead we get profoundly hopeless messaging from the likes of climate scientists saying that we need to be zero carbon by 2030 or the world ends. Or from Greens that say that not supporting 100% renewable energy is tantamount to climate denial (phrasing cribbed from Holocaust denial, something that skeptics are _well_ aware of and that really reinforces their opposition instead of defusing it). This politicising of what should be a debate about _energy policy_ has morphed into a complex cut and thrust of tribal values and ideological radicalisation that has paralysed action instead of catalysing it. Fortunately, I think we have begun to see common sense begin to emerge on both sides. Union of Concerned Scientists (not actual scientists) coming out and saying that nuclear _is_ necessary to fight climate change. Greens recognising that Energiewende in Germany is _not_ about to lead to a wind and solar revolution but instead entrenching dependance on lignite coal and Russian gas. Conservatives beginning to come around to a 100% "clean energy standard" instead of a 100% "renewables standard". Even oil companies coming out in support of a global carbon tax (which is transparently a long con to displace coal with natural gas). I don't think we are out of the woods yet. The zeitgeist is beginning to change, but policy lags zeitgeist by at least 5 years. And the worship of "the market" that has so pervaded the Anglosphere is going to limit effective action that demands economic planning and government-led research and transformation that I just don't see coming any time soon given how toxically tribalised politics have become.

[@GWNBF]

MonMalthias thanks for this.

[@ThePuppyTurtle]

@@MonMalthias So I'm telling you this because I presume you don't know and don't mean it. You repeatedly generalizing the left as "the greens" and attributing broad absolute positions like the complete rejection of hydroelectric power to us doesn't come off very well.

[@MonMalthias]

@@ThePuppyTurtle I don't mean to generalise "the Greens" as Left. Actually I explicitly mentioned that the Green worldview, is _Right._ It is conservative. It is Austere. It is Malthusian. It is anti-human in the name of pro-environment. From the Australian viewpoint, the Green party was founded in opposition to a hydroelectric dam project in Tasmania. The project went through despite Green opposition. Tasmania now, thanks to its hydroelectricity, now has the lowest average CO2/kWh in the nation and thanks to its interconnector, now has a secondary role in smoothing out the intermittent generation of wind and solar both on Tasmania itself and in the mainland's coastal VRE installations. The Green party and intervenors saw to it that the 2007 UMPNER report and nuclear debate that followed, resulted in a legislated ban on "all nuclear facilities including power generation" as part of the Environmental Biodiversity and Conservation act under section 140A. The conservative Liberal-National coalition, saw to it that the vast majority of coal and gas electricity generating assets, built with taxpayer money, run by union labour, were privatised and sold to French, Chinese, American and Dutch utilities, in the name of neoliberalism. Now, after 40 years and these assets reaching the point at which _replacement parts are unable to be found_ we are a nation looking down the barrel of a moribund electricity generator fleet that threatens grid stability and thereby economic stability. Privatisation has frozen investment but allowed immense wealth to flow out of this country. The centre left Labor party found itself collaborating with the Greens in abandoning its union base, demonising coal, to push for wind and solar subsidies that rewarded privately owned corporations with generous welfare cheques in the form of RECs that pay them _even when the generators are not generating._ This in the face of known, historical data, showing that Sweden, France, Canada and Norway being able to fully decarbonise their electricity sectors using nuclear and hydroelectricity power, union run and publically owned and operated on cost recovery instead of investor benefit. You know what's even worse? The Green party also torpedoed the Labor carbon tax initiative _because it wasn't in the style of the ineffectual, neoliberal, European Emissions Trading Scheme._ Labor lost that election and we have now had 8 years of Lib-Nat devastation of social services, maltreatment of refugees, destruction of union bargaining power in the health sector, and a rise of Neo-Nazism in the Young Nationals (the youth arm of the National Party). Now that private companies own the electricity generators, the Lib-Nat Coalition wants to "preserve" coal and gas for grid stability reasons. The reasons are sound, but their defense of the market structure and crisis _they_ created is beyond the pale. South Australia, whilst achieving a 100g CO2/kWh drop in emissions from coal retirements and wind and solar growth, now has _zero_ reserve capacity and is in the process of commissioning 2-3 extra open cycle gas turbines; and without a Victorian interconnector, would be dead in the water. I have every reason to despise Greens. Their policy positions and the centre left's need to accommodate them to maintain Senate majorities have polarised and paralysed effective climate action. They have enabled immense taxpayer wealth to flow out into private coffers. They have destroyed union bargaining power. They have led to the loss of manufacturing and recycling jobs (Toyota, Holden, Visy have all begun to leave this country) and electricity prices have risen, impacting the poor more than the rich. All in the name of a return to a Heideggerian, romantic, pre-Enlightenment view that lionises the wind and the sun not for their relative strengths and weaknesses but for a mindless pursuit of 100% renewable that in fact entrenches, instead of displaces, reliance on fossil fuels. Are you telling me that I should be more diplomatic to those that subscribe to a worldview informed by a Nazi? One that has delayed effective climate action for 2 decades and now decries fossil fuel shills and lack of political will without an ounce of introspection?

[@ThePuppyTurtle]

@@MonMalthias That explains that then. Still, you should think about whether or not anyone is going to know what you're talking about when you just put the word "Greens" and don't provide context. Most people on the internet have never heard of anything to do with Australian politics.

[@deirdreb2474]

I wish Felix was on this episode :( would have been cool to see how he and Natalie interacted

[@MiloKuroshiro]

Natalie is easily the best content creator on the platform at the moment.

[@warmlycalculated390]

Yup! And Chapo has the best Podcast :). Citations Needed is really great too.

[@ukstevey]

contrapoints makes great videos, I dont agree with everything she says but she comes across as a way more understanding and reasonable person than any of the people on the other side of the debate.

[@severalwolves]

Wow, Chapo, I’d really expected better from you... I couldn’t believe it when Will characterized Natalie as a “gigantic star”. I’m pretty sure she’s, like, regular human size. And she’s definitely *not* a massive celestial furnace. Get it together, Chapo, like for real! D:

[@futurisma9014]

"Male hysteria" going right into my everyday vocabulary, thanks

[@ZetaReticulian]

Just 23k subs?!? How have I bin so 🍀 to stumble onto such a fucking 💎 of a podcast! This is YT gold.

[@1Rekuiem]

They don't really upload to KZbin you should check out there podcast on Google

[@Gh0st652]

I cant believe that Phrenology has made a comeback. And that's probably not even the weirdest thing to happen in contemporary politics.

[@coldonesgeneral2103]

Natalie seems like a great person and she does amazing work

[@JohnBrockman]

Marie Curie! New Contra character! Marie the Incautious Scientist!

[@thatdutchguy2882]

As long as she glows in the dark while doing it.

[@grmpEqweer]

She would have to SPARKLE in the dark!

[@5zakuro]

As a lesbian i definitely sympathise with the incel experience of not knowing whether or not to make the first move lmao

[@MaxOakland]

Martyna Sikończyk It’s such a human experience. That’s what makes it so weird that they think they’re the ONLY ones who experience it. But it’s kind of narcissistic I guess and depression can sometimes cause extreme tunnel vision so maybe that’s it

[@abberss]

Natalie Wynn is a legend

[@bryanzarate2602]

I would love to see contrapoints on Joe Rogans pod cast

[@angel-gu8co]

i have severe social anxiety but i'm not about to hate people because of my loneliness

[@brandon8667]

I listen to yall at work

[@AmineSamus]

I like how the ending theme is from contra lmao. Contrapoints..contra..good one guys

[@schibbedie2]

I think I cringed myself to death when Matt screamed out DUDE! and OH MAN! at her 😄 I think he did too, on the inside

[@danielwhitt9150]

How does she find the time to acquire so much knowledge! I need to make my brain as powerful as Natalie's.

[@zieteniere7500]

I think she was doing a PhD in philosophy? She mentions something like this in one of her vids

[@No_Cho]

You're right, I would miss Natalie on your show. Thank goodness she's on youtube

[@andrewshewan4551]

I kinda wish Felix had been there for the podcast. Is he still part of Chapo?

[@Cleverconveyence]

Andrew Shewan he is. And yeah I feel like he could have added extra insight that Wynn already had with regards to alienation and that weird comfort of net spaces.

[@shkeni]

Yeah he's on the next episode.

[@kellyloganme]

LOL - Just checked out Mr. Dapperton's vids. I love how his animated opener looks like a video game character menu screen with achievement trophies stacked in the backdrop- machine gun, bong, raw milk container, money bags, weirdly off-center vase so maybe the next trophy shows up next to that. . .

[@deformschool]

It finally happened!

[@mischkin3588]

been waiting for this one for a long time.

[@_oe_o_e_]

now what do we ask for?

[@Binstone]

natalie as frequent guest

[@gotnothingclever]

For Natalie to replace Will as host.

[@allancastellon4432]

Nick Mullen

[@RipTheJackR]

Hbomberguy

[@PokeDude1995]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

[@ahawkone8850]

56:58 Jung isn't "repackaged" Joseph Campbell, it's the other way around. Campbell references Jung more than a few times, but most of his work was about comparing religions. Jung was about comparing common symbols. There is overlap, but they are after slightly different things, and Jung came first.

[@coreygolphenee9633]

Jung and Marx are both prime examples of being able to write paragraphs of prophecy while also being able to write pages of dense intellectual musings that are just difficult to understand

[@tjbarke6086]

Q Anon is basically the resurrected form of the Satanic Panic.

[@justpettet3506]

what? it is your grandmother when you leave her alone at the home what are you talking about?

[@quester09]

only more stupid, since Satanists at least exist.

[@coreygolphenee9633]

To me its the best example of how the Kennedy assassination leads to the moon landing being fake. One conspiracy have a lot questions about it leads to another that starts asking stupid questions

[@Allen55919]

Such a good episode and I’m hearing it in 2023.

[@basedgodflashy5552]

Why did she say Ben Shapiro was using facts? The guy literally never uses facts he is ridiculous.

[@chereshan906]

He is constantly spitting economic data without context. I mean leftists don't believe in heterodox economics so it doesn't matter.

[@basedgodflashy5552]

@@chereshan906 You mean liberals? Leftists for the most part follow Marxist economics which is far from mainstream. The reason liberals and leftists alike dismiss things like the chicago school and the austrian school is because the austrian school is based on fantasy and is literally a logical fallacy that follows the theory of praxeology which claims to be correct without any empirical evidence and claims that it cannot be disproven. That is a joke not worth response. As for the chicago school it was a massive failure in chile that doubled poverty.

[@contraband100]

@@soyborne.bornmadeandundone1342 And then a right winger will ask, "Any evidence of your claims"?

[@polishedpebble4111]

Hontra is controlled opposition.

[@breno855]

The people in the comments complaining that it's just voices on a still image so they are doing what they criticize knows that Chapo is a podcast right?

[@jirojhasuo2ndgrandcompany745]

They also dont have furry edgelord bane personas

[@PalaeoJoe]

I'm confused, when was the last time Ben Shapiro made a factual statement?

[@aimeemariet]

Reading the really extreme creationism websites was my favorite hobby back in 2004, it's refreshing to know I am not the only weirdo.

[@strega0]

that Contra theme though. :D I LIVE

[@DeedeeDirt]

The Contra theme was a nice touch

[@artstsym]

48:18 ish: this is the problem with portraying all relationships as transactional. They're not, and even worse when people try to wean themselves off it they have no foundation for how to act. It IS genuinely terrifying approaching a situation you've no training for, and strict individualism has given millions no way to relate to others but through strict give and take. The parallels between this and the liberal inability to consider an economy without capitalism are striking.

[@cpnCarnage666]

Ladies and gentlemen... WE GOT HER!

[@NeoIsrafil]

No way.. I couldnt disagree more. Ben Shapiro does NOT represent the nerds. I was a nerd, hes the guy who hung out with the cool kids and they kept him around because he put down the other nerds but they really thought he was just crap. Every nerd or geek I knew in school hung out with the other people who were considered weird, the other "freaks". We hung out with the LGBT people, some of us were goth, etc. We were accepting of everyone because nobody accepted us. Shapiro is just another kind of bully.

[@seothis640]

I could listen to this for hours. Maybe days? You might have a new subscriber!

[@georgeseif102]

Wow. Great listen. You're making my trip to get Virginia stamped cigarettes in Manhattan via Brooklyn great.

[@funknotik]

I love watching Shapiro, Peterson, all the conservative memes. Purely for entertainment, but I'm glad they exist for my amusement.

[@droopypancakes]

El Chapo go on Chapo

[@warmlycalculated390]

Gucci Mane go on El Chapo.

[@nospmohtracso]

the wallpaper in this room is causing me to feel a deep sense of doom

[@Invisiblelad]

Great podcast, but The Golden One does *not* look like Bojack Manman. Bojack is unsatisfied with how he looks and he is not in _peak_ horse shape and can't run like a top horse can. That's the complete opposite of our favorite swedish neo-nazi.

[@zljmbo]

YES! He looks like Brad Pitt head on Jonny Bravo body with lotr elf motif

[@SockPuppet80]

Following this episode, I got into a serious discussion on whether Bojack Horseman was heavily built or not - whether he was horse-sized, essentially, and whether Matt's simile made sense. I argued yes, because BJ is clearly much larger than PC, Mr. Peanutbutter, and crucially Todd/Dianne/any other human. The other side argued no, because in the show he's also roughly the same size as a spider, a bird, a hippo, and an orca, so sizes don't matter at all. That opposing argument was obviously postmodernist Marxism spouted by a chaos-dragon worshiping female, so I firmly reject it. I still hold that the Bojack Manman thing makes sense, and is in fact a very poignant joke for a non-BJH-watcher to make.

[@TheDudeSmashTrash]

This discussion made me realize that there basically is a chapo and KZbin "lore" or "mythos".

[@volusiasorange]

this contrapoints mofo is brilliant

[@paulgorman2276]

You should look up her youtube channel. Its amazing.

[@ShaynaLynn]

I can't wait for Natalie's Magnum Opus. It's going to be so fucking good.

[@jesspavlichenko5745]

We may or may not have gotten it in her Twilight video

[@pottedaloe9160]

This was so good! ❤ Natalie go back on Chapo!

[@lisahayes3648]

All ppl suffer from the same experiences that incels have but don’t group together on the internet to almost fetishise those experiences. Why don’t women do it? Or LGBTIQ ppl? Because it’s only men who have been socialised to feel superior to women & that women’s bodies should be available to them sexually when they want. It’s this sense of entitlement that is the poisonous heart of the incel community. Loving listening to you as always Contra.❤️

[@jaceylong8646]

This is the episode that got me into chapo! Rewatching it can't be left unsaid that will and natalie have a really good rapport, he seems genuinely excited to talk about her work, and asks a lot of great questions. I forget how good an interviewer he is. Matt was also great and i love the bojack man man. Virgil is virgil and i hope he never changes. I love that wonk!

[@Poopmannn]

I have some bad news

[@willshogren1987]

I'll believe Virgil did something wrong when anyone outside of an anonymous Twitter account can give me a straight answer. Apparently, he "groomed" a legal adult.

[@vitaliybakal7356]

1:10:00 Chapos get stealthily owned

[@banonKING]

Contra stage theme for the sign off... Oh you!

[@shiron222]

Understanding: Also known as empathy.

[@MisterCharlton]

Starship Troopers unironically influenced the way I thought about politics, and helped inform certain ideas that I hold today in that regard (the book, not the movie lol)

[@spacefacecadet]

I want to try to reach my Peterson loving brother and Trumpist parents but I'm not sure if there's media out there that doesn't assume agreement and is also, uh, prude friendly. Anyone?

[@nergal727]

Throw them in the deep end contra points is the only way.

[@rentsy3444]

wow this interview is amazing

[@ashadeofnight]

Amazing podcast, love it