Conversations with Megan, featuring Phil Chan about Diversity in Ballet

Phil just wrote a book called "Final bow for Yellow Face," which is a great guide to understanding more about the diversity issues in ballet. It's a topic that I find is hard to navigate and find a comfortable space to learn more about, and after I read his book we had this conversation about these topics and what ballet can do in America to be more appropriate for our diverse audiences.

[@d14551]

I so appreciate the honesty here. I also think Phil Chan's explanation of the difference between the traditional Chinese variation and the Spanish variation in the Nutcracker is brilliant and can be extended to many other contexts outside of dance. Thank you.

[@deborahmielke620]

An interesting intriguing intelligent interview. Thank you for this conversation. Looking forward to reading this book!

[@prun3e]

Another amazing interview!! Thank you both for your honesty, empathy, and curiosity. It's so heartening to see these respectful discussions on a topic like diversity that can be uncomfortable for all involved. I feel like you've both shown how educating ourselves and embracing different perspectives can help our understanding. I'm Aussie of Asian heritage and I've learned so much myself by watching this interview. I will check out Phil's book - I'm really interested that while it covers representation of Asian people, it contains ideas that can apply to all minority groups. Megan, thanks so much for using your platform to have such great discussions. I'd be really interested to hear interviews from members of other minority groups, if that's possible. :) Thank you both again, you've nourished my brain and my soul!

[@cherylkavanagh3387]

I so agree, prun3e. This was such an honest, engaging and respectful conversation about a subject that can be uncomfortable and is still evolving. Another wonderful interview.

[@noahryang8640]

Another great interview! I Know how it feels to be invisible as an Asian dancer, to not want to rock the boat. Grateful for activists like Phil & Georgina pushing the envelope of Asian representation and for people like Megan who are willing to listen and be open to the struggles of others, even if they don’t understand at first. I have faith in the fact that the dialogue on representation of minorities in ballet and art at large will continue. The first step at it’s core is compassion, empathy, a willingness to have the conversation even if it’s difficult to accept that people have different experiences than your own, and face different challenges. Happy to hear these conversations are happening in ballet companies around the world. The little Korean boy in me is excited for what’s next.

[@Siricerasi]

Tamara rojo faced such backlash after English national ballet modernised giselle and everyone acted like the original ballet was now defunct which is not true. Big companies will always do the “big” ballets but if we want ballet to survive we have to reflect other people’s stories. I am white and feel the privilege that’s most of the stories on stage reflect ppl who look like me but one day I hope there will be a lesbian principal or a story about two ballerinas the way Mathew bourne redid swan lake with all men. This was a brilliant interview I really enjoyed it

[@steve-o5600]

Great and enlightening and thought-provoking interview. Thank you Megan and Phil. And of course the dancers in the Shanghai Ballet don't look the same any more than all the white ballerinas look the same in an American company. Obviously the costumes and hair and make-up traditions, especially of the corps, are designed to present a homogeneous and blending look, but each one of those Chinese dancers looks different and unique when you get to be with them and know each individual, just like everyone of every ethnic background in an American company is a one-of-a-kind distinctly unique human being, in looks and in every other way.

[@kiraph]

Thank you Megan and Phil. That was a great interview. Megan, you really seem to have a talent for interviewing people. I'm in Australia, but still really enjoying watching them all. :)

[@ruthdavidson-schaller2245]

Thanks so much for this amazing interview!!! I’m ordering the book today and will look at yellow faced interviews. This is so relevant and accessible to everyone!

[@thelightdivining]

A really interesting interview, and the tone of the conversation was really intelligent and open to every different aspect of the issue. Thanks for your work.

[@gill77771]

That's interesting because I thought there were a whole lot more of Chinese/ Japanese/ Korean ballet dancers now. I'm so proud to see that! I think each of us bring in something from our culture into our ballet... it might be the same movement, but our history, our backgrounds, our understanding... all comes out in the movement because ballet comes from heart and thoughts first.

[@kaykomckayface1097]

Thank you for doing this... As a Chinese, every time I watch or have to do the Chinese va I felt super uncomfortable...and I live in Japan, but believe it or not even watching ppl who has the same skin color dancing it... God it is still not easy... I used to think I was overly sensitive. But now I know why... It was meant to be the clown of the whole show...and that's like, the only time I see Chinese roles in ballet--clowns.. Thank you Phil, for helping me understand my frustration. I'll need to get the book. And also, Meagan, it's rare for somebody to have such an open mind...you are such an inspiration.

[@curiouscoquettexcourtney4778]

Fascinating conversation, I learned so much! Thank you both!

[@helenasvr]

Again a great interview! I'll surely buy Phil's book. I just love how we are starting to talk about how much room dance has to modernize it's views and restage ballets in an informed and sensitive way. Opera productions are a little step ahead. As a soon to be choreologist I have to add: Is dance notation hard? Yes, it takes time to learn a new language and become fluent in it and there are not many places that teach it. Is it expensive? Is another paycheck at the end of the month too expensive for the big dance companies? What if all rehearsal assistants could notate dance? It does come down to a lot of people not really knowing how it works and not being aware of the benefits we can take from it.

[@neshama44]

i just finished the legend of bruce lee and it was very enlightening for me in the way asians were discriminated in America. another great interview. thank you for touching different issues.

[@biastephenson4111]

Thank you for a very thoughtful and important interview. One tiny note -- the observation of representation mattering especially when the audience is diverse makes sense (though it also might be worth some more teasing apart; is it really OK to keep representing others as caricatures even when they are in fact "others"?). But the use of Paris as an example of homogeneity doesn't work. I can't speak specifically about ballet audiences there; maybe they don't reflect the diversity of the population in general. Particularly given the large numbers of French people of North African origin, I would think that representations of "Arabian" characters would be highly relevant there. Of course degrees of diversity vary around the world, but I think that we as Americans need to be careful not to assume that we're uniquely diverse.

[@akchills]

I don't think his point was toward the diversity of population in France but rather the France perspective on diversity which is different than in the US, there is a championing of an overall French identity and culture that is homogeneous and a push for assimilation into that even if people are immigrating from different areas (which has been challenged in recent years but is a strong foundation of their national identity) which is different from the US where there is an idea of being a "melting pot" where people are immigrating but not necessarily losing completely the identity of their different groups (which is kind of to his point about Megan's husband becoming American but her not able to be French in the same way)--so it's more the difference between having everyone come into something with the same cultural framework and having to take account or consider at least the individual perspectives that your audience might have

[@biastephenson4111]

@@akchills Yes, good point, thanks.

[@WeirdLittleDreams]

I had to go digging for this one.

[@soldaliberdade13]

part of privilege is the option to "safely" talk about issues, but not need/have to confront those issues outside of our safe spaces - oppressed communities don't have that option - I think that to not abuse our privileges, we have to not just read in the comfort of our homes, but also have difficult conversations, sometimes JUST listen, sit in spaces of discomfort, be willing to give things up... who leads/facilitates the diversity talks at NYCB, Megan? What do those look like?

[@d14551]

P.S. I just went bought the book.

[@ringnerd]

I would agree with Phil that one could restage a classic like La Bayadere in a different time and place. Laurents et al. certainly did it with "Romeo and Juliet" when they created "West Side Story". But then you also get an essentially different and new work, and it would be wrong IMO to assert they are somehow equivalent even if the steps don't change. Nor is there a clear directive that this is something we 'should be doing'

[@Caroline-jt6ez]

I'm glad that there's another person who agrees with me. The new Bayadere is probably going to be like how The Wizard of Oz and The Wiz are similar, or like you said, Romeo and Juliet versus West Side Story. I doubt his new Bayadere and Corsaire will be successful. Honestly I would love to see Bayadere as culturally accurate to the time period with Indian set designers and costumers, with no blackface or bronzer on any dancer. I also want to see how a classical Indian choreographer helps the dancers with little things like hand and leg positions without completely changing the original Petipa choreography. Same with Corsaire but with Turkish set designers, costumers and choreographers inputting their work to make it accurate to the era.

[@WeirdLittleDreams]

Ron K. Brown of Evidence Dance Company said in a interview that he was afraid of bastardizing ancestral African dance forms in his choreography. He started going to Senegal I think to engage more directly with African dance as it exists and is taught on the continent. One of his Senegalese counterparts responded to his fear of bastardizing African Dance forms in terms of developing Afro-contemporary hybrids, and they said... "go ahead, once you Americans touch it... it becomes a totally different thing".

[@arnelnacino6754]

At approx. 40 minutes - there's a story, now legend, of the great Cynthia Gregory at ABT actually pulling a similar stunt. Before starting her variation from Grand Pas Classique she stepped out from the wings, threw her cigarette onto floor, stubbed it out with her pointe shoe and then strolled over to start her solo. This absolutely enraged Lucia Chase who declared, "You are NEVER going to dance this pas de deux again." To which Gregory replied, and I'm paraphrasing, "Good!" Asked about it later she replied, (paraphrasing again), "It's a vulgar piece, I hate doing it, and I'm happy I'll never have to do it again."

[@WeirdLittleDreams]

I want to talk more about producing this newer La Bayadere and your whole approach to producing a ballet instead choreographing one. @Phil I'll inbox you on IG.

[@WeirdLittleDreams]

I am thinking of a way to workshop a new Bayadere! Oooooohhhhhh I have ideas!!!!

[@MrQbenDanny]

Mr. BALANCHINE saw the Nutcracker divertissements choreography in Tchaikovsky's magical place score. Global cultures mock themselves in exaggerated poses and steps everywhere as entertainment and not a ridicule. In Manhattan, the Upper West side routinely mocks the Upper East side in how they talk, walk, and dress. Racial discrimination is an entirely different subject. For blacks, it's still tough, but changing fast. Just ask and perhaps even interview Carlos Acosta Megan, who became the Premier Danseur of England's Royal Ballet while REALLY BLACK, Carlos is not even Misty black. HE'S BLACK! Applause to the Royal for kicking the doors off it's hinges and making it happen with the Cuban black, who sold out every performance. The Asians I have seen in classical purity brought to the States by Julia Moon for example, are Russian School ,Vaganova Style particularly, ditto Korea and Japan who also adopted the Russian Style along with ice skating and Gymnastics, it's their BASE. I would like to see a Chinese Nutcracker choreographed by Mr Chan and watch what steps he sees in the great Tchaikovsky score!

[@powerofalto]

MrQbenDanny This comment is deeply problematic for multiple reasons. Global cultures don’t mock themselves; people within those cultures, who have been steeped in those cultures may joke, but that is coming from a place of membership and appreciation for the complexity of those cultures. People who haven’t lived those experiences, especially those who haven’t suffered from stereotyping and even more severe forms of oppression, have no business engaging is such humor. Furthermore, it is highly problematic to identify one individual as “blacker” than another. In America, the “one drop” rule (a social and legal principal of classification that was standard in the last century) said that anyone with an ancestor of sub-Saharan African descent-regardless of the shade of their pigmentation-is black. Discrimination was extended to any and all, and those who were able to “pass” had to live with the constellation of feelings and implications of hiding out within a culture that they were not welcome in. This conversation is about the depiction of people of Asian ancestry in works like Balanchine’s Nutcracker, and how everything from the choreography, to the costuming, to the music is based in things that aren’t just stereotypical and problematic today, but were stereotypical-and in no way captured the most outstanding aspects of Chinese culture-in the time when the piece was created.

[@MrQbenDanny]

@@powerofalto NONSENSE, I wrote the truth, and the truth is the truth whether you want to believe it or not it's still the truth. Halle Berry, the Oscar winner for best actress in a leading role, has herself been the subject of discrimination by the black community itself for being "TOO WHITE", Every culture and ethnicities mock each other in fun but also, yes, in a derogatory term. .Central and South American countries make comedy of it all. I've travelled the world enough to witness this. Ballet is an aristocratic white European art created (Born in Italy) and embraced by Louis14th, in France where the 5 famous positions were originated, and then the Russians dominated, and STILL do. BALLET in Cuba was born in 1931 and later Alicia Alonso and the Alonso brothers Fernando and Alberto created a school where they took techniques from the best schools and tailor made the Cuban School of ballet. Cuba is diverse in race and is not a big deal subject. Everybody dances. Traditions are difficult to change, ballet in particular, but it's changing. The Mariinsky has removed from the Bayadere Golden Idol scene the ensemble of ( black face painted children), escorting the Mystical Golden Idol scene. It was ridiculous truly, but I don't think it was looked on as racist by the RUSSIANS. Asians have been a part of the ballet world for a long time mainly Japan and succeeding brilliantly many Stars like SONO OSATO, with ABT, YOKO MORISHITA with ABT (Fernando Bujones brought her to be his partner), Lucia Chase approved. These 2 Ballerinas had different teachers in their careers all from different nationalities, and YOKO MORISHITA had a favorite who had great influence on her technical and interpretative powers, MAGGIE BLACK, American teacher. The good news is that BALLET now has become as popular in Brazil as soccer, Baseball in Cuba, all races are in the world class companies of the world. In the Mariinsky, the great Korean Kimin KIM is Star, he dances a fantastic SOLOR, the Indian Tiger Hunter in La Bayadere. Cheers.

[@arnelnacino6754]

@@powerofalto Tchaikovsky and Petipa were men of their time, as was William Shakespeare. We are rightly appalled today by the many anti-Semitic passages that pepper his plays. George Balanchine too, was a man of his time, and he choreographed Chinese at a time when there was no such thing as political correctness or diversity sensitivity training. The same went for the Artistic Director who choreographed her own Nutcracker for the local ballet company I used to dance for. As an Asian-American myself, I never took offense to the scores of times I was cast in the Chinese variation, and made to wear a coolie hat, paint on a Manchurian mustache, and tumble out of a giant teapot, all before performing my first split leap in second. I understood then as I do now, that the steps I was made to dance, and the costume I was made to wear just came out of uninformed, often frivolous notions of East Asian culture, that were harboured by the majority of 1950s, Doris Day, Eisenhower-era white people, and were never to be taken seriously. Not even for a moment. No offense taken.

[@simbahunter8894]

Nobody in the black "community" thinks of Halle Berry as "too white". She has a white mother, but there are many black people with two black parents who are whiter looking than she. Black American identity is beyond the scope of this discussion.

[@meredithstitt2477]

@@arnelnacino6754 I'm wondering -- Just because these choreographers were uninformed about racial sensitivity and how their works may look to non-white people, is that enough reason to accept and continue to perform their choreography? Because you said that you are an Asian-American dancer who was consistenly typecasted into these arguably offensive roles, is it fair that you and others who look like you should continue to be placed into these roles because Petipa and Balanchine were men of their time? Why are we (as a society) placing so much weight on decisions made by now deceased people that possibly offend large groups of people today?