Corner Stays, Double Trouble?

Corner Stays, Double Trouble? Is it better to have a single stay protrude into the paddock on each corner, or two, one on each fence run? There are some interesting phsysics facts to consider before you rush to answer and I go through these with James, from Walters fencing in Tamworth.
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[@maddan.]

I always run two stays because I always tie off a fence at a corner post. Makes it easier (in my opinion) to deal with and repair damaged fences, which I seem get a lot of between gum trees dropping limbs and pesky skippies.

[@ashleydavidson8715]

Good looking shirt James.... start that conversation 👍

[@lazwald]

The perennial question has been explained with the laws of gravity, physics, and a great example of doing push ups! Well done fellas. A point to consider is the cost of the additional material and labour (going through the roof at the minute!). How about a vid on strainer lengths, concreted in vs hammered in? Appreciate your insight Tim!

[@michaeltobin2014]

I’ve seen a lot of line stayed fences that lay in on a bend!

[@Bernie5172]

i did a 45* deg strainers in my shed yard. 15 years ago They have moved a bit in this years wet. I wouldnt do it again when I fix them sometime soon

[@aussiefarmer4955]

Thanks Tim and James, great advice , tips and knowledge. I have always wanted to know the best and most efficient way to lay stays on big paddocks, well here it is right here!! Btw myself and the Missus brought 4 pink quick twitch tools, looking forward to using one very soon.

[@adammitchell9404]

There is more then stay length and position that causes corner posts to jack up, for instance strainer length and the depth in which it is in the ground, over the past ten years I’ve used my Munro driver to drive 3.1m minimum strainers and 1.8m stay blocks using a 3.1m stay and 12mm bottom rod all fully welded. Not one has popped and I never do corner stays as shown as I’m out in the central west nsw there’s a lot of cropping and hay making so that stay style imposes on corners making a lot of damage on header combs, hay rakes and any other wide body machine, also impacting on machine turn ability. So long story short, correct strainer length for conditions and proper stay blocks not pads and nothing moves or tips over.

[@FarmLearningTim]

The whole point of the video, as very carefully explained at the beginning, was to demonstrate the effect of stay length and angle by decreasing post size and depth to a point where they were garenteed to fail. This reduction in post depth and diameter allowed a comparison of different stays, which was achieved. This was not a video about post depth and diameter. That research was already completed by the university of Iowa in the 1950's. It is impossible to test multiple factors at once and attribute percentage effect to each seperately. Rather, you isolate one or two factors and independantly test. You can then, using multiple tests, combine results to develop a tested opinion on a whole solution.

[@WasabiWill]

You need to draw a vector diagram Tim, the planking analogy is poor because James only has gravity acting on him and not the tension of the fence applying the jacking force from each direction. If you actually draw the vectors of the fence line applying the pulling force in line with the direction of the fence and their resultant forces according to distance / pull you will find the problem with a single stay is actually that unless the wire can float around the post (as it is here) the chances the forces applied to each direction of strain are perfectly balanced for the life of the fence or the stay is perfectly spaced are extremely low. You are in effect trying to balance the strain of two fences on one stay perfectly for years. If the wire can float around the post it will allow it to balance out but if its tied off it will jack out with time or develop a bias. I challenge you to get James back down on the ground and put a rope behind his heels and have two people pull on each end of the rope inline with the fences and see where his balance lies - I bet it spread armed.

[@nathannoske505]

I thought the same with that he spread apart arms to nothing holding him up a better way to prove double is always stronger because of 2 braces forcing not just 1 is get him like that and push his shoulder he will easily be pushed over now do the same with his legs apart in a v not his arms and now push him over at his shoulder he will be so much more planted having more bracing himself it’s common sense double is better double the strength it’s a no brainer and in the 25 years I’ve been fence contractor and my dad was for 15 years before me never done singles out in to a paddock where it’s open to being hit or moved and think end of fence no one puts a brace at a 45 from fence it’s always inline with fence because that’s where it’s always worked best

[@coen555]

@@nathannoske505 Because the force at the end of a fence is inline with the fence. At a corner it is not. A very silly comparison.

[@davidholmes4088]

I’m assuming that if it’s not always a 90 degree bend just measure equal distance up both fence lines Run a line across, find the middle and that is the single stay direction

[@galah4092]

2 thoughts If you are going to tie off to the strainer, then you really want 2 stays, each inline with the fence runs. This lets you put up each half in whatever order suits. If the wires just loop around the strainer, this is moot. The vector sum of the fence wire forces means the middle single stay gets more load. 1.4 times each of the line pulls for a 90 degree corner. So the single stay has to be somewhat stronger.. not that thats cost significant. Gets down to the potential inconvenience of the middle stay, vs extra cost of the 2 stays.

[@FarmLearningTim]

Hmmm important consideration is not actually strength. It’s the effective stay length in my opinion. Short stay length jacks posts.

[@galah4092]

@@FarmLearningTim seems reasonable, but this would apply irrespective of whether its one or 2 stays. I tend to just use 3m stays, whether 1 or 2 stays. So not sure why jacking would affect either one or 2 stays.

[@nathannoske505]

Stay length should always be 2.5x the height of fence I do a 1.2m high fence so my stay length is 3m I don’t use those stays I put a post in 3m away with 3 rail at top and cross wire and never have a issue I tried that kind of stay and for hills I have pulled them clean out while straining the wire

[@galah4092]

@@nathannoske505 Sounds like a box end. They certainly work, but have more parts so somewhat more expensive to build. I've got a bunch of timber box ends on my place, old enough for many to be rotten. Replacing those with steel strainer posts and stays as the existing stuff dies, or fencelines get changed. For what its worth I use fence line solutions staypoints and stayblocks with a 3 turn wire loop around the base. No issues with any of the few dozen I've put in so far. The post goes in an augered hole with a couple of bags of concrete. Auger is on the tractor 3PT, no other digging. Everything is light enough one guy can do the work. I've yet to pull out a post while straining, but I do try and avoid steep upward slopes. Perhaps the concrete helps too. Yes, a 1.2 fence and a 3m strainer seems a workable combination, with the 2.4 strainer about 1m in the ground. A treated pine stay is cheaper, but means I have to dig a hole at the end of it.

[@kierenlewin1510]

The physics isn't correct, there has been studies on this stuff. Although I don't know a lot of fencers that run wire around a corner the inside stay is very common for angles under 90deg, other than that it seems to be a argument not worth having. The physics between the angle and box/H assembly is interesting, I think the box/H assembly has just over twice the resistance to lifting the strainer.

[@pashabulker12]

I'm surprised nothing was mentioned about the angle of the corner. If its greater than 90 degrees you really need a central single stay. If you have two stays inline with the fence and the corner is 100 degrees your strainer post will pull over eventually.

[@therealsideburnz]

Here’s another consideration: What kind of animals do you have? I think my goats might use that brace as a ramp and hop right out of the fence!

[@lindsaybrown]

I have just put a stay just like this into my goat paddock, maybe 135 degrees. I ended up running the electric wires further into the paddock to increase the challenge factor for the goats

[@Ray-qi7bd]

Hi guys, thanks for the vid Tim. However, forces don't work that way and by use of vectors and the parallelogram (or square in this case) rule you would need a substantial longer stay for the single compared to the two on the corner for the forces to be equivalent (about 40% longer). However, we don't need to get too scientific here and personal preference is key - use what's best for you and your situations once you are fully informed. Cheers and keep the great work going Tim.

[@Pete__outside]

Good in theory, but practical experience proves them right.

[@markmoriarty5357]

Agree with the posts of others that the physics of the explanation is flawed, and I strongly suspect the conclusion is too. But a correct vector diagram as suggested is not trivial as it's a three dimensional problem. But all this doesn't make it the wrong choice or solution, it obviously works well enough in practice, and with lower cost and complexity. Keep up the good work Tim.

[@wheatsheaffarming2146]

I have a question regarding change of direction. Is there an angle of direction change where you can get away without a stay? I.E. setting a strainer post mid run to bend around a tree or obstacle say 10 degrees or so.... I recently did a 300m section like this and put an adjuster stay in to be safe...

[@FarmLearningTim]

Sometimes a large post is all you need. I’m unaware of any research on definite angles.

[@hagopianharout2238]

TT all your clips are 1m high can you make a clip installing 1.8m high fence?

[@FarmLearningTim]

Got one in planning

[@hagopianharout2238]

@@FarmLearningTim I would love to watch it

[@hagopianharout2238]

@@FarmLearningTim I would to watch it how to tension the top barbed n smooth wires

[@graybeard6687]

Hi Tim, single stays work fine but the example used by old mate is questionable. The thing you didn't mention is you should never run your stay into a paddock when you run horses, very dangerous for the animal.

[@johnboyce6044]

Hey Tim, I'd like to see some chalkboard maths on this one. One problem with James's push up / planking analogy, he needs to start with a single arm in the middle, not both.

[@FarmLearningTim]

That’s why we did the walking analogy too. It’s not just about strength, that’s far less important than the tripping angle! Corner posts jack out of the ground if the effective stay length is too short.

[@johnboyce6044]

@@FarmLearningTim I've re watched the video Tim and I don't understand what you describe there. I'm with Galah, and only ever use the same stay length {3.2m?} Maybe you get better value per dollar with one stay but if we are only talking about the integrity of the fence I can't see how one stay is better than two. Again, I'd like to see the maths.

[@mrengineering101]

No different to what the power companies do with power poles change in direction

[@mrengineering101]

Hey Tim. Just wondering if you could do a video on the layout spacing (I may have missed it). Would be great to see how far apart various fencing items should be. Like star picket spacing and gate locations. Thanks

[@jasonlheath]

Single stay also cheaper

[@somasinglespeed]

And cheaper is never better!!

[@jamiedempster4358]

its a better design