Cornwall: Dumnonia to Decline, 400-867AD | Behind the Campaign

[@BrotherJing1]

A couple of quick notes as I'm watching this; 1) Cornwall could never accurately be described as isolated; it had been trading tin with the Mediterranean and it's closer neighbours since the Bronze Age and this continued well into the Medieval period. 2) Migration to Britanny wasn't exacerbated by the Anglo-Saxon arrival. The Anglo-Saxons were still on the other side of the country when it started to increase. The Britons of Cornwall and the Veneti of Armorica were more culturally similar and had a shared interest in the tin trade (Armorica being another source of tin) since pre-Roman times (this is noted in the Barry Cunliffe book you are quoting). The movement of Britons after the romans left could be more accurately described as colonisation and was a clear move to secure the tin trade routes. Hence they also established a settlement in Galicia, Northen Spain. Where, once again, there are tin deposits. 3) The Battle of Deorham did cut off the SW from Wales however it had nothing to do with Dumnonia. The three Kings mentioned in the ASC are leaders of independent post-roman polities. Dumnonia at it's most generous border probably only extends to the Parrett in Somerset. As the Saxons advanced it could be argued this shifted East as the former Durotriges collapsed but that's very subjective. 4) The Saxons don't enter Devon until after 710, the 8th Century. The Parret is the border until this time. 5) Dumnonia is gone from all records after Hehil, Edwards is correct. However that doesn't mean the territory of Devon is lost. Much of the remaining fighting, including Hingston Down, is likely to have taken place in Mid to West Devon. This also clarifies things like 'raiding from East to West' and yet not controlling any territory past the Tamar. It makes mroe sense if Ecgbert is instead pushing the Britons out of Devon. 6) Gafulford was likely a Saxon defeat, it didn't assure Wessex's domination or the battle of Hingston down wouldn't have been necessary. In fact it's a very inconvenient time for Ecbert to have a battle as he was preparing to engage with Mercia decisively in the same year. 7) The Quote about 'disposing of their lands as seemed fit" Isn't from the Anglo Saxon Chronicle. It appears in a Cambridge History book but only quoted as 'A Later document mentions'. This isn't contemporary and doesn't reflect the evidence of charters, or of Church compliance. 8) The only land in english hands in Cornwall before Athelstans reign, that we know of, is Maker. This was granted by King Geraint of Dumnonia to Aldhelm of Sherbourne in the early 8th Century. Additionally, Alfred the Great was able to leave some land around LAunceston to his son in his will but that is it. It definitely wasn't 'more and more in the hands of Saxon nobles' 9) Hingston Down is more likely to be at Hingston Down near Moretonhampstead in Devon. The ASC makes it clear the Vikings and Cornish take the campaign into Wessex and Ecberht goes to meet them. They wouldn't leave their ships in the Tamar and wait for him to go past the ships and to them. 10) From Ecberht until Athelstan there is no grants of land in Cornwall from English Kings. Athelstans 'cleansing of Exeter' is also a myth written by William of Malmesbury. The Church also maintained it's own idiosyncrasies which can be seen in Edwards founding of Crediton where he left money for the Bishop to 'visit the Cornish priests, for Stubbornly they resist the truth'. It's not until Athelstan re-founds the Cornish Bishop of St Germans, basically acknowledging that his predecessors efforts to try and bring the Cornish into compliance had failed, that we see any growth of English control in Cornwall. By then it is also not replacing the native elites, but rather the Native Elites are starting to adopt English names and tie themselves more closely to the English state willingly. We can see this both in charter evidence and in dual-name use such as within the Bodmin Manumissions. I don't want to sound entirely negative, alot of your information is commonly found on the internet but unfortunately it is incorrect and a hangover of a view of history which has always placed English history first and attempted to write out other peopels stories as much as possible. I'd recommend reading any of the following: The Promontory People - Craig Weatherhill Cornwalls First Golden Age - Bernard Deacon Or my book if you want! The Western Kingdom : The Birth of Cornwall - John Fletcher

[@petertrebilco9430]

Wonderful pick up, John. Very considerate review of the video and it’s content. Kernowyon appear to lack your insight, and it seems a considerable loss to Kernow, and to its place in a much occluded ‘history’. I’m sure we are fortunate to have your contribution. I’ll keep an eye out for your book.

[@theholyromanducklord8121]

Hi John, thanks very much for your thorough feedback. I've pinned your comment to the top so that people can see the corrections and get a full account. This video wasn't intended as a proper documentary, rather as an overview to complement my other gaming videos, but I will take your feedback on board and will take greater care in researching in the future! Thanks again for taking the time to comment, I'll be sure to check out your book!

[@kernowboy137]

It is also worth mentioning that Cornwall retained its own laws and customs long after the Norman takeover of England. The Normans for their part appointed a number of Bretons as Earl’s of Cornwall in deference to Cornish sensibilities. Indeed, it wasn’t until the Tudor period that this political and cultural accommodation of the Cornish was ended, which is somewhat ironic, given the Tudors historical affiliation with Wales.

[@shuanluke3983]

KBV

[@davewatson309]

I would suggest the post Dyrham border would be the Wansdyke, there are several Marksburys, border strong place, at least 2 of which are by Forts on it. The Duke would have guarded the winter grazing while the Gwlad Haf, summer country was flooded, hence Chew Valley Ciw Welsh being a baby animal. Also Glastonbury features heavily in the age of saints. Dumnonians fought in 950 at Brunanborough after which the Britons were expelled from Exeter.

[@petertrebilco9430]

As a third generation Ostralian-Kernow, I identify very strongly as Kernow. I speak Kernewek and have visited my ancestral land in Peran ar Wodhel. Please keep this series going. Unlike our Gaelic brethren, we Kernowyon lack the great warrior sagas and narratives, or, if they exist, they are relatively untaught and therefore unknown. Kernow deserves much better public policies and self rule. Kernow Bys Vykken!

[@waddaboing]

A fellow true cornish man my ansetory can be traced back 470 years got all the paper work

[@kernowbysvyken5600]

king arthur was from cornwall to be fair

[@granite_4576]

Pup tra an dus a'n ynysow ma yw ken, mes yn arbennek an Kernowyon. Kernow bys vyken, breder.

[@petertrebilco9430]

@@kernowbysvyken5600 I’d love to believe you but the histories suggest, like Robin Hood, he’s a fictional character, at best an amalgam of several notable historical figures. The grail quest, too, is a metaphor for the spirit of persistence and the drive to discover. How I wish it were true…but…?

[@petertrebilco9430]

@@granite_4576 Yw. Yn arbennek an Kernowyon!

[@MrVbd7]

Kernow Bys Vyken! As a Cornishman, it's nice to see it being covered! Big ups!

[@victorconway444]

Thank you making this. I've come to love the history of all the Celtic peoples. All of them with a story of many great tragedies, but also unfathomable perseverance throughout so many centuries to keep their cultural identities alive to this day.

[@GravelGutz]

I lived in Cornwall Ontario Canada. Thanks for the history lesson 👍

[@JessicaBradshaw-rg7vi]

Great video, informative, clear diction, thx

[@CerdicTheGreat]

Very well presented and constructed. I learned some interesting things even though I already have an interest in Kernow as my mum is from this country. I knew about Ecgberht as he is a very significant character in English history in that his successes laid the foundations of a powerful Wessex that his grandson was able to grow into an eventually united England. Loyalties torn as my dad is from the heart of Wessex.

[@theholyromanducklord8121]

Thanks so much, glad you learned something! You've got interest from both sides of the family!

[@rhzyo]

Wasn't his grandson that United england

[@theholyromanducklord8121]

@@rhzyo It was his great-grandson Æthelstan I believe, but his son Alfred and grandson Edward all played an important part!

[@rhzyo]

@@theholyromanducklord8121 I know it was Athelstan. I was just say that it wasn't his(Ecgberht) grandson "Alfred" that united "England" which a lot of people think. Alfred was Ecgberht's grandson & Athelstan was Alfred's grandson. I love history. History Time is an amazing channel that I love watching you should check it out

[@gregchaynes]

great work sir

[@goeegoanna]

Fascinating, thank you chum.

[@Way2Chezzy]

This is an awesome video!

[@briancornish5857]

Thank you.👍

[@billychops1280]

Would you consider doing a Celtic reconquest of Britain in CK3? Either as the Welsh or Cornwall, you could even create a hybrid culture between them when you conquer the island

[@kernom749]

The Cornish will rise again! Pasty in hand!

[@Ariueh]

Mouth*

[@FaughtyEmit]

Down with the bridge!

[@rhzyo]

Great video would love to see others like this

[@theholyromanducklord8121]

Thanks so so much man! There'll definitely be more in the future ;)

[@mrmarmellow555]

Ay TRUTETH DI BÆ 🍵❣️😂

[@edmundprice5276]

I would love to see dumnonia re-established, and I live in devon, Whilst in devon we may be anglicised, we are still stereotyped and mocked by the rest of the country, and we don't exactly have equal treatment compared to everywhere else.

[@waltonsmith7210]

Well everyone is stereotyped and mocked by someone

[@edmundprice5276]

@@waltonsmith7210 yes but on top of that we have a mass colonisation taking place in Devon and Cornwall, we have no investment in these areas that benefit Devonians and cornishmen, only grockle settlers, and an economy that is exclusively geared towards grockles and farmers. If you ain't a grockle or a farmer, you're fucked.

[@johnfisk811]

Typical Devonian Kernow wannabe.

[@mrmarmellow555]

More for THESE PLZ 🍵❣️

[@musicmasterplayer4532]

Cornwall was never a county. When William the Conqueror took control in the 1080s he named his brother as the first Duke or Earl of Cornwall. It was never a county, and the head of state is not the Queen but the Duke of Cornwall. The local laws for property are very different from British laws. The Cornish identity has been preserved in distinctive institutions. The Cornish have always maintained their own regiment in the British Army, which was independently commanded by the Cornish until the 16th century.

[@ker773]

Even king Henry the 8th recognized Cornwall as being distinct from England

[@YorkyOne]

The first comment confuses Cornwall with the Duchy of Cornwall - the head of the latter being the Duke of Cornwall. Well over 80% of the Duchy is actually outside of Cornwall. And, of course, the Head of State is the reigning monarch. The rest of the post is just as confused.

[@Tom_Wolf_]

Fascinating. Did you know a comet hit Britain in the mid-6th century which is why the Saxons could move in without much resistance. You should check the work of Alan Wilson for some suppressed history. Also King Arthur the 2nd fought the Saxons during this time.

[@samclarke3573]

This has got to be the best reply on this page . Do you have anything on King Arthur 3? St Comet Major was named after the 6th century event

[@geraldallen2665]

I'm from Cornwall and if anyone asks me were I'm from I always say Cornwall not England. We are totally different people. I now live in the Philippines. I miss Cornwall though

[@Ariueh]

Same I never address myself as .British .English I’ll sometimes say “I’m Celtic” but normally I just say “I’m Cornish”

[@trevormorgan2636]

Your DNA does not agree

[@balls9420]

​@@trevormorgan2636 You are accepting shit as fact. Anything involving humans cant be black and white. Even if not DNA, culturally they are Cornish.

[@samclarke3573]

Being cornish myself you guys are the problem causers

[@neilog747]

We're anything but totally different since we're both indo-european with a tiny tiny difference in DNA. You could be projecting your emotional issues onto your ethnicity.

[@SithFam]

Do you have history or info on the Curnow’s?

[@jameshazelwood9433]

Is the word Diwedh meaning to end or finish? we have a similar word in Welsh

[@eoinh]

I've only started the video, but naming the peninsula karnos is interesting to me, as just across the water is the southernmost tip of Ireland, Carnesore Point or just Carne (hard c). I wouldn't say Carne is nearly as horn-shaped as Cornwall but now I'm wondering if the etymology is the same 🤔

[@oro7114]

Well in Irish it’s Ceann an Chairn and So either Chairn was a person the area was named after or Chairn is in reference to the land reaching out to Cornwall, it’s an interesting idea!

[@skathwoelya2935]

In the Cornish language, Karn = rocky outcrop. Examples around Cornwall's rocky SW coast are: Carn Kez, Carn Greeb, Carn Cravah, Carn Boel, Carn Guthensbras, Carn Scathe, Carn Glaze (on OS Explorer map no.102) and lots of others across Cornwall/ Kernow. Cornish names are sometimes anglicized with a "c" but still pronounced with a hard "c" like a "k". Iwerdhon ha Kernow bys vykken! 😉

[@Y_Surniaiev]

Cheers to a fellow CK3 gamer! I studied the history of Brythonic kingdoms and your video gives a good insight and good overall review. I wanna know about Cornish language - did it die out completely and was recently revived exclusively from written sources? Or there was a tiniest minority which helped the enthusiasts to recreate the language? How is it going on now with Cornish? Is there a tendency to grow the number of speakers?

[@petertrebilco9430]

As far as I ‘know’, Kernewek died out in exclusive fluency…that is, fluent speakers on any topic, to the exclusion of sowsnek…but small disparate groups maintained a skeletal almost pidgin mix of the dominant sowsnek, peppered with Kernewek, enough to be the basis of an assisted revival. That revival relies on the remnant vocabulary, religious and other historical texts, and borrowing and approximations of lost Kernewek based on extant bretonic and kembrek. So, as a widely-spoken, taught-in-school language, Kernewek ‘died out’. But there’s energy and focus on renewing and recreating our language. Kernow Bys Vykken!

[@skathwoelya2935]

Cornish was never completely dead because as soon as it fell out of use as a community language (around 1800), scholars started translating the mediaeval, or Middle Cornish, literature throughout the 19th century. For example, "An Ordinale Kernewek" originally written around AD1400 was translated in 1859 as "The Ancient Cornish Drama" with original text and notes by Edwin Norris. There are other texts and scholars. Middle Cornish/ Kernewek Kres dates from AD1200 to 1600 and is the basis of the modern revival. Late Cornish/ Kernewek Diwedhes dates from AD1600 to 1800. During the late period, Cornish was increasingly anglicized (watered down by English) and not such a good basis for reviving the language as literature had almost stopped being produced. The numbers of modern Cornish language speakers is growing all the time and, I believe, is taught in some schools.

[@CemeteryHillFarm]

Who was Mortaph and did he play a roll in Dumnonia at all?

[@duogema801]

did u create this content by yourself, if so you deserve 1000000x the subscriber u have now

[@theholyromanducklord8121]

Yep, this video is entirely made by me. Thanks so much!

[@billychops1280]

All Celtic peoples who’s culture survived on that god forsaken island, have my respect

[@IosuamacaMhadaidh]

The most up to date genetics show that most people from Prydain (Britain) are still genetically related to the iron age Celtic Britons, but the more eastern part is more Germanic via Anglo Saxon conquest, but even *THAT* is even less than originally assumed. It shows a more gradual takeover, mostly politically and socially and not *AS* much genetically as thought, probably due to Saxon men taking Briton wives, and the mitochondrial DNA being passed along while the male dna (I forget it's scientific name at this moment) didn't completely wipe out the male Celtic dna. That's my basic understanding of it all. I believe it's something like 30-40% Germanic (including Scandinavian) and the rest "Celtic" or "other". If you go back far enough though, southern Germany was Celtic culturally and even Norse/Viking knotwork art is very similar to Celtic style. Goes to show there's a lot of nuance in all this stuff.

[@billychops1280]

@@IosuamacaMhadaidh culture and genetics aren’t the same thing, there’s a bunch of small amounts of Coptic genetics in Egyptian muslims, that doesn’t mean their cultures survived

[@IosuamacaMhadaidh]

@@billychops1280 that's exactly what I said in long form, but thanks for trying. I can tell you didn't read what I wrote fully or didn't comprehend it well. I simply added at the end that the Celtic culture was once followed by Germanic people too, not that they are blood related. Although, we are cousins. Especially now! But even back then there were a lot of migrations into the isles. But the admixture did not wipe out the dna of the iron age Celtic Britons.

[@billychops1280]

@@IosuamacaMhadaidh no all u did was tell me how the Norse and Saxons took on Celtic wives which is why they have Celtic DNA, which first of all, duh, most of the people who went to Britain were men so obviously they’d have to find native woman for marriage

[@billychops1280]

@@IosuamacaMhadaidh also no it wasn’t, the Germanic were always distinct and only ever collided with the celts, ever since the German started pushing west

[@OzLeedsCrew]

7th Gen Aussie of Cornish ancestry. Couldnt be prouder 'Onan hag Oll' 🖤🤍

[@FaughtyEmit]

Proud to be Cornish..well, 50% Cornish at least.. and taken to Devon to be born. But I say it's where you first set foot on the land, So unless I was dropped as a baby in a Derriford carpark in 1986 - I consider myself proper Cornish!

[@robertwoolstencroft5946]

Devon was also part of dumnonia Plymouth also called Aberplymm

[@theholyromanducklord8121]

What did you think of this history-focussed video? Let me know below!

[@mrmarmellow555]

Excellent WAY TO LINK📖HIS📕too🎮🍵❣️

[@redstonemineshaft]

The connection we get to see through this between our history and the games we play is incredibly interesting, thanks for the video!

[@exeterjedi6730]

We can bring Devon back

[@brennditbrennus8916]

I think that Cornwall is culturally, historically, and geographically close enough to Wales for this to evolve towards concrete administrative and political developments. Why not an administrative and political association of Cornwall and Wales with its Welsh and Cornish Parliament / Senedd Cymru a Kornog?

[@neilroberts5434]

Cornovii was in English midlands moved south and to top of what is now Scotland

[@shuanluke3983]

Prest omma sos . Kernow bys vyken 😎

[@samclarke3573]

Sowsenek bys vyken

[@KingKong187911]

The English are so blinded by their false sense of superiority and greatness, their ego and even arrogance won’t allow them to understand how a group of people amongst them would want to be separate. Love to all Cornish Warriors, you are always welcome in Jamaica 🇯🇲

[@chesterdonnelly1212]

The Cornish don't want independence. They're poor. What they want is handouts.

[@Dungiom]

❤❤

[@Ariueh]

We would be them with the pasties if we could get enough attention 😂

[@hhproductions8254]

You are so blinded by your false sense that us English think we are superior. Acourse not, some of us are bad especially our ancestors with assimilation of the majority of Celtic cultures and Northumbrian culture but in modern days we don’t. I hate the current state of the UK and would wish for the government to care about the cultures of the British isles and encourage diversity. I would also wish for a Constituent country of Cornwall to exsist. Anyway what I’m saying is that you have no means to comment falsely about Briton affairs.

[@balls9420]

@@chesterdonnelly1212 We want a house! Rich Londoners see them as investments instead of what they should be! A home for a family.

[@dubccoverseer]

Parred in Dorset? It’s in Somerset!

[@petertrevorah7689]

Gonn meur ras a’th gwydheo splann. Nebes tryst yw an istori ma.

[@Kingedwardiii2003]

I thought this was a ck3 video

[@pond_people]

Fowey is pronounced 'Foy'.

[@stuartpeskett1514]

King Arthur never went anywhere near Cornwall, but came from the midlands.

[@ConradAinger]

As a Continental Saxon, I have found this video informative. Except for the references to the fictional Arthur.

[@harry_woolcock5561]

You said Fowey wrong and Fowey is nowhere near Bodmin moor

[@johnfisk811]

This does seem a little restricted to one story. It omits the raiding of the Irish which prompted the early Kernow migrations to Breizh and the observable depopulation of northern Kernow.

[@skathwoelya2935]

Historians normally give 936AD as the last battle with the Saxons and the border with England being fixed on the east bank of the Tamar. This was never legally changed.

[@trevormorgan2636]

What saxons were they? The Gewissae, perhaps?

[@ellismeah8110]

The UK is a tiny group of islands , its a shame all areas are so devided ,sadly politians keep it that way , the whole country isnt worth fighting for anymore , with the enemy within

[@neilog747]

Er...

[@trevormorgan2636]

Dumnonia was Devon not Cornwall.

[@jamesdavies7860]

KERNOW BYS VYKKEN

[@samclarke3573]

SOWSENEK BYS VYKEN

[@Mathertron]

No U

[@neilog747]

Assimilated into the Norman French? If that were true, we would have adopted Roman Law like the Scots, we would feel French, and our core word hoard would be French, none of which is true. The ability to shrug off political tragedies is a common thread amongst the nations of Britain. None of us know how to lie down once felled. Look at the comeback of the Welsh tongue for example.

[@shuanluke3983]

Kernow was never annexed into Saxon land nor modern English ✌

[@samclarke3573]

Erm are you stupid well I guess so because from where I'm sat in Cornwall it is very much within England and even a county! It is not like Wales or Scotland cornish independence is a myth at best

[@sallysmith920]

It's NOT Fow-wee, it's Foy (Fowey) as in boy. You're welcome.

[@neilog747]

He was respecting the correct pronounciation from centuries ago, which is more than what people do now.

[@johnvanstone5336]

Fowey pronounced FOI

[@StephMcAlea]

Sorry, but your ideas of "Arthur" being Cornish are way off.

[@theholyromanducklord8121]

Is Arthur not associated with the Kingdom of Dumnonia from which the Cornish kingdom came from? He also has links to Tintagel which is in Cornwall. (I am aware Arthur is probably unhistorical)

[@kernowmaid5970]

I thought his mother was Cornish and that he was conceived at Tintagel, which is more important for its seat to a few Cornish Kings. 🤔

[@kernowboy137]

It is likely the legend of King Arthur was known across Britain and in the years following the Anglo Saxon takeover of England it took root in the brythonic speaking areas now comprising Wales and Cornwall, likewise the Bretons embellished a tale that they knew to be British in the part of Britain where their forefathers hailed from, namely Cornwall.

[@martinmargerrison2300]

It's pronounced FOY and not Fow-ey. Lose 10 points

[@samhammer1134]

Reparations from Rome! Lmao