Does God Send People to Hell? Michael Jones vs Alex O'Connor

[@alz1997]

I thoroughly enjoy the dynamic that these two have in these conversations. As a Christian, I've always admired Alex a great deal in that he's unwavering in his criticisms and observations of Christianity and theism, but that he truly listens to the other side of the conversation and is never interested in misrepresenting anything.

[@samanthaannfuchsgruber]

Fellow Christian here. Could not agree more!! 💖🙏🏻✨💖 Much love to Alex and Michael. 💖🙏🏻✨💖

[@WayWalker3]

It has always struck me as odd, that on the assumption that Christianity is supposedly the one true religion, how only approximately one third of the world's population follow it, after 2000 years.

[@joelapplin88]

How are you still a Christian after watching these types of videos??

[@DA-yd2ny]

Alex is incompetent. He claims to have studied theology and doesn’t even know the basics of the bible; for crying out loud. He interviews scholars with a much higher education without a basic understanding of those people’s expertise. He gives the impression of a primary school kid asking a professor basic questions.

[@GrolskslorG]

​@@DA-yd2nyHow's your channel/podcast doing?

[@tommyhearns6169]

I’ve never understood why the devil would punish me for disobeying the same god he did

[@ericdanielski4802]

That's the point. The devil want you to disobey.

[@carpediem5232]

​@@ericdanielski4802 The devil does not exist (most probably).

[@LtDeadeye]

That’s not a Christian doctrine.

[@MenchieExtrakt]

@@ericdanielski4802 But doesn’t that mean I’m on his team?

[@milantarbuk1039]

@@MenchieExtrakt "You've disobeyed god and done exactly what I wanted you to, now I'll poke your balls with this trident for all eternity"

[@joshhoward8848]

That was one Hell of a conversation.

[@aquatick1848]

Lol you took the low hanging fruit. Off to hell you go

[@johannpopper1493]

This is the joke God was waiting for. Out of all these billions, you're the only one who deserves to go to heaven. The purpose of this universe is complete. Commence apocalypse.

[@DANGJOS]

🤣😂!

[@joshuaestrada6042]

Ba dum tss

[@reasondro]

​@@johannpopper1493brilliant 😂!

[@jjjccc728]

This is a summary of the points made by each participant and their evaluation: - Michael Jones: - He argues that God does not send people to hell, but people choose to go there by rejecting God's love and grace¹. - He defines hell as a state of separation from God, not a place of literal fire and torture¹. - He claims that God is just and merciful, and that he desires the salvation of all people, but he respects their free will¹. - He supports a Christian and biblical approach to understanding and explaining the doctrine of hell¹. - He criticizes Alex O'Connor's atheism, his misunderstanding of Christianity, and his use of emotional and moral arguments¹. - **Evaluation**: Jones presents a coherent and plausible account of his position, and defends it with theological and philosophical arguments. He also challenges O'Connor's position with relevant objections and counterexamples. However, he may be accused of being inconsistent or arbitrary in his interpretation of the Bible, and of ignoring some of the problems and paradoxes of the doctrine of hell. - Alex O'Connor: - He argues that God does send people to hell, and that this is incompatible with his justice and mercy². - He defines hell as a place of eternal punishment and suffering, as described in the Bible and the Christian tradition². - He claims that God is unjust and cruel, and that he condemns people to hell for arbitrary and unfair reasons, such as their beliefs or lack thereof². - He supports an atheistic and rational approach to understanding and explaining the natural world². - He criticizes Michael Jones's theism, his misunderstanding of atheism, and his use of circular and fallacious arguments². - **Evaluation**: O'Connor presents a clear and challenging account of his position, and defends it with logical and factual arguments. He also challenges Jones's position with relevant objections and counterexamples. However, he may be accused of being too simplistic or biased in his representation of Christianity, and of dismissing some of the possible evidence and arguments for theism.

[@randomdudeoti]

A non biased review of the debate!

[@korenmoscovich4681]

Great comment!

[@Fil_the_spil]

Thanks bro this is helpful

[@SirMevan]

Why do I feel like this is a standard ChatGPT-format answer haha

[@thermite547]

By far best comment

[@samfelton5009]

Alex you are KILLING it with these guests. Love the people you’re bringing on, keep it up!

[@XJRSuper]

This guy seems quite angry from the first few minutes.

[@johnbuckner2828]

@@XJRSuper no I’ve watched Mike before. he’s cool. He just has that expression a lot during debates and deep conversations. I think it’s a concentration thing.

[@richardgoodall8614]

I'm just 5 minutes in and tired of his lack of knowledge of the doctrine of hell.This guy is poorly rationalizing immoral unjust and wicked nonsense

[@letsomethingshine]

Bibliolatry is no good, which canon? Which interpretational version of that canon? Why would that one be true, what is the falsifiable prove?

[@davidjanbaz7728]

@@letsomethingshine try studying first: there are multiple views and you obviously don't understand any of them.

[@manmanderson]

Then they did the fusion dance and became Alex Jones

[@huey7437]

Haha

[@RanchElder]

To say nothing of Michael O'Connor...

[@manmanderson]

@@RanchElder I would if I knew who that was

[@brotherben4357]

They mated, didn’t they?

[@manmanderson]

@@brotherben4357 fusion dance does sound like another way to say the boned

[@darrellanderson6650]

These guys can think and articulate very quickly. It must be a gift.

[@Gruso57]

It comes from expertise in their studies. When you devote lots of time to what youd like to learn it gets easier and easier to think quickly

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

No it comes from a long time of effort and practice.

[@johanahonen8627]

For some it's also a grift 😂

[@davebowman760]

It's a skill that can be learnt!

[@Reignor99]

reading books helps me a lot my ability to speak skyrockets when I'm consistently reading, but goes back down if I don't read for a few months

[@davidrogers8321]

I'd never dreamt of such a mutually respectful debate. Well done you two!

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@DefenestrateYourself]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 cope and seethe 😂

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@DefenestrateYourself God through the Holy Spirit has shown me several things relating to the afterlife with the purpose of convincing people like yourself. Stuff like Heaven and Hell, Angels, ,evil Spirits, the Lord Jesus (not worthy at all), a miracle happened to me that saved my life (thank you God) & so much more. I am more than happy to give further details.

[@Soshig13]

As a Christian, this is a rather interesting topic. Good to know both sides of the aisle continue to have young minds who are open to listening and understanding perspectives from both sides.

[@Longtack55]

My understanding is that believing in something for which there is no good evidence is: You can guess.

[@Illycrium]

I too find it unreasonable to believe in things with no good evidence, like something from nothing, order from chaos, life from non- life, consciousness from non- consciousness, etc.

[@jasonharris8728]

@@Illycrium and fortunately for us non-believers no one has ever proposed that there has ever been "nothing"... a state of complete non-existence.

[@nilswagner1536]

@@Illycrium "I too find it unreasonable to believe in things with no good evidence, like something from nothing" Cite me ANY peer reviewed paper that purposes this. "order from chaos" What do you mean? If you are talking about our universe, it is by no means order. It is extremely chaotic. We see entire star systems that perished billions of years ago in huge cataclysmic events. " life from non- life" What do you mean here? Everything is made of the same things. Atoms , carbon etc. Define life. "consciousness from non- consciousness," This literally happens to every human and animal ...

[@LawSavant]

​@@Longtack55 How can you prove that anything exists outside of your own mind? Isn’t it irrational to believe in something without direct evidence or verification?

[@ChadTurnUp]

I just found Michael’s page maybe a month or so ago. This is a conversation I really wanted to happen. Thanks to you both!!

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@chrisalan11rus]

The nature of this debate was so civil. Thank you for the opportunity to hear complex, thought out arguments instead of tactics and sarcasm. I love IPs channel and it was very cool to hear someone else’s thought process as well.

[@TwiddleJones]

So civil and yet one condemns the other to eternal torture

[@LeadedNevada]

@@TwiddleJonesIP isn’t condemning Alex, Alex is condemning Alex

[@TheDragonageorigins]

I love how someone could listen to the talk and conclude what the above commenter does. It's like that bicycle meme where they put a stick in the spokes of their wheel then blame someone else for them falling​@@LeadedNevada

[@user-ld3si9iy6s]

@@TwiddleJones ? I didn't see the guest do any condemning? He's well aware that's Gods job not his?

[@bloonavich8515]

@@LeadedNevada god is condemning Alex to hell after forcing him to reject himself lol

[@DH-rs6cq]

I'm a big fan of Mike's channel, and I appreciate your interview, the way you compose yourself and keep it fair and well intentioned.

[@georgehugo561]

This is like a breath of fresh air. Thank you both for speaking carefully and kindly and for truly trying to listen and respond thoughtfully. I recently watched a so called debate between an atheistic and Christian scientist that ended up as shouting and slurring match. It thoroughly upset me.

[@Incandescence555]

Why did it upset you - these are very emotive and salient conversations, they are bound to get heated and difficult often, it's human nature even if it's unsightly to see

[@marcfischer114]

Both James Tour and Dave Farina are bullies.

[@georgehugo561]

@@Incandescence555 That's a good question. It shouldn't really touch me like that, I suppose. I'm a Christian and I think I was very disappointed in the behavior displayed by the Christian. He got overemotional and loud and disrespectful. At the same time it never makes me feel good to see anyone (Christian or atheist) say and do nasty things to others, and the atheist was just out for character assassination. Hurling insults (even at the audience). You won't be wrong if you call me sensitive. Lol

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

@@marcfischer114 I did not come across of that expression from James Tour but then I did not watch 100% of all his content online and there are many. Can you refer to which conversation you are talking about? I know there was recent debate between James Tour and Dave and it got charged and Dave called James pathological liar. I did not watch the debate yet myself but I saw lot of people comment like that. If you could point me to specific min in the video I would greatly appreciate it. Normally I dont like people being bully but if someone is being bully to you then I do not object responding accordingly.

[@josephmetts3085]

The bible says there is a lake of fire. At the end of the 1000 yr reign of Christ on earth,at the end of this age even hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. There are 2 resurrections of the dead. The first is for the righteous for eternal life and the second for the unrighteous for eternal death. Both classes of people will receive physical glorified bodies to receive their reward. The same body Jesus recieved from God.

[@Practical.Wisdom]

This is such an excellent conversation! Thanks very much, Alex.

[@toa12th4]

I've loved both of these channels for a long time and I'm really happy to see this conversation It almost feels like every guest you get is one I needed more than the last!

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@shadamyandsonamylover]

I have never heard of the idea that hell was temporary. As a Catholic, the whole “refinement for heaven” seemed a lot more like purgatory than hell doctrine. I’m not a Catholic anymore, but I really liked this argument for Christianity (and hell) presented here. I consider myself agnostic and (through absolutely nothing but wishful thinking) would like to believe that the afterlife is just a place where everyone becomes their best selves automatically. This depiction of hell seems much more in line with that thinking and I very much appreciated it.

[@dragonmartijn]

Yes hell is forever. Purgatory is for a while. Heaven is only for saints, but a bit broader than just the canonized ones.

[@VVooshbait]

hell isn't for us, hell doesnt exist, purgatory doesnt exist either

[@shadamyandsonamylover]

@@VVooshbait well, everyone has their own beliefs.

[@DefenestrateYourself]

@@shadamyandsonamyloverbut not their own facts

[@teravega]

Really happy Alex brought Michael on. This was a great conversation and was interesting to see both sides on this topic.

[@danielyates9055]

I never understood why an all-knowing being would create me, knowing I'd sin, only to then punish me for eternity. Sounds cruel

[@aqup_]

Free will bro. Even though omniscience and free will are paradoxical.

[@gusgrizzel8397]

Why would "God" create us, insist in a book we have to find him and worship him, but remain hidden from us? Who would ever insist the most important thing, to save you from eternal hell, was to know God, but God hides! Christians say God isn't hiding, they mention someone they know who was cured, sunsets, smiles, thoughts they have in their heads, and provide NO evidence at all.

[@aqup_]

@@gusgrizzel8397 Also, the only "evidence" that God provides of himself can be so easily misinterpreted as well.

[@koboDresden]

@@aqup_ I don't agree. Does us seeing the past mean that there is no free will from future perspective? So I have free will, but never had free will?

[@itsmario2024]

@@aqup_ free will doesn’t exist

[@armadyl1212]

I always found it a bit weird that we need academics and scholars to interpret the message from the all powerful creator of the universe for us

[@atheisticallyspeaking1217]

Exactly what I was thinking. What I don't understand is how apologists don't ever stop to wonder the same thing.

[@turnage_michael]

You need the Spirit. That which is spiritual is spiritually discerned. Lean not unto thine own understanding but study to show thyself approved. Not even the scholars and academics are always right.

[@GodlessCommie]

@@turnage_michael what about people who claimed to know god spiritually but leave the religion later in life?

[@TheGogogwo]

Because you don't. The vast majority of the world believe in some sort of god or creator its obvious to them, you athiests are a small minority. But you can't as an athiest craft deep and complex theological and philosophical questions then aspect the thiest to give you simple answers. You ask deep questions you get deep answers. And the best answers come from scholars.

[@GodlessCommie]

@@TheGogogwo atheists aren’t a small minority. we’re the third largest group in the world’s population.

[@dylanschweitzer18]

Props to Alex to getting right to the point. I hate when podcasts have a 20 minute set up.

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@alexkiaii6548]

God does not exist​@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363

[@claudio-1896]

I am a Christian, and I enjoy listening to Alex O'Connor. A very intelligent and resoanble atheirst. I have been listening to Michael Jones for about a year now, and I really enjoy him a lot. As a believer, I learn tons from him! Good job both!

[@midnight_77]

Best philosophers/debaters of their respective beliefs. Though William Lane Craig has some sick arguments too. He just needs to nail the KZbin shorts like Michael 🤣

[@Jgp4xzdmqnmil]

Wonder to who or what does jones keep flashing his eyes

[@Jgp4xzdmqnmil]

Scott Hahns interpretation of heaven is a permmanent catholic mass. He got this from section of Revelation. Reads like hell to me. Eternal tedium.

[@YLLPal]

I've always said, if god exists and is perfectly just, then I have nothing to fear. I've come to my atheism honestly and with the evidence and arguments made available to me.

[@FlatOutMatt]

When you look at what religious people do and what they say, who could seriously fault someone for drawing the conclusion that it was all a contrived vehicle for craven asshole humans to exert control over other people via what is fundamentally a threat.

[@samuelsprings7245]

The evidence made available to you includes countless historical documents, geographical proof, and personal accounts from people - including former atheists and agnostics, who have no reason to lie - sharing their personal encounters with you. It's good that you're able to accept that God is just and that your choice to actively reject the evidence provided to you is completely willful.

[@YLLPal]

@samuelsprings7245 haha, sounds like you responded to what you wanted me to say and think, rather than what I actually said and think, lol.

[@2828cid]

@@samuelsprings7245 People are either convinced or they're not. It's not a choice. I spend a great deal of time studying the bible and reading scholarship on the bible and the history of christianity and I've yet to find anything convincing.

[@Nickdd98]

​@@samuelsprings7245 have you considered all the historical documents, geographical proof, and personal accounts from people of ALL religions? That's the only way to really be sure, right? Especially considering there are older religions than Christianity, Hinduism for example, which therefore must have a longer history with more documents, more personal accounts having been recorded etc. I'm not disagreeing with you that it's important to try and take in all the evidence available for such an important topic, but it's difficult enough (if not impossible) to genuinely do this critically and rigorously for one religion unless you become a scholar and dedicate your life to it, let alone to do it for all the major religions, which is the only way to REALLY be sure

[@jonathansmith8962]

Thank you Alex for straight out mentioning that the percieved morality or character of something does not make it true/untrue.

[@outoforbit-]

Absolutely, it's actually the Catholics who say, God will be the judge of that. As an athiest I'm currently looking into Thomas Aquinas and others.

[@Tellmewhy235]

Funny how he can’t demonstrate anything he’s saying but continues to add fictional scenarios by appealing to emotion

[@Wackaz]

Wow, I never thought I'd see this debate in my life. As an InspiringPhilosophy watcher but also a CosmicSkeptic watcher due to his vegan content (as a vegan myself), this is awesome to see, and a pleasant surprise indeed provided it is a problem I have always had as a Christian - the doctrine and subsequent justfiication of Eternal Hell. I simply cannot believe an omnibenevolent God would allow us to experience eternal suffering, even if we choose it, so hopefully this debate enlightens me to some degree. Thanks guys!

[@SydneyCarton2085]

It helps that the idea of hell is unclear even among clergy and church fathers, however I believe it is enough to have faith in Gods love. What if hell is spending eternity as a disembodied spirit lamenting the lost opportunities to love and worse the times one knowingly hurt others? A ghost no longer is tempted by fleshly desires like food or sex or fatigue so maybe they are left with regret. Maybe that is what purgatory is, forgiving yourself for failing to love. Lord only knows.

[@cklester]

@@SydneyCarton2085 Any time someone posits an eternal punishment for finite crimes is not thinking clearly. God tells us to use our brains (come and reason) when considering evidence. The evidence is clear: Jesus is love. Jesus is God. Therefore, God is love. Nobody is going to be punished eternally for crimes committed over the course of, at most, 100 years. The words of the Bible have been distorted by Satan and evil men to sow fear and doubt in the minds and hearts of human beings (just like he did in the Garden of Eden when deceiving our first parents). But our job is to dispel these lies: we are to be stronghold demolishers, destroying the lies about God's nature and character. And the worst lie ever foisted upon gullible men is that a "God of love" will torture His children forever in fire. It's a gross mischaracterization of how God will handle selfishness (sin) in unrepentant sinners.

[@tman040496tb]

​@@cklesterwell I do believe that God torturing us by sending us to hell is wrong. The Bible says that not only will some people will go to hell, but everyone deserves to go to hell. Thats the whole point of Jesus's sacrifice. The bible clearly says that our sin nature is an anathema to the purity of God and only through the sacrifice of his son and infinite grace can we be pure enough to be in his presence. To think unrepentant sinners will go to heaven is to say Jesus's sacrifice is unnecessary and that is heracy. God is love, but he is also justice, and without being under the tent of his sons sacrifice hell being the furthest most distant place from God is the only just place for humanity to go.

[@cklester]

​@@tman040496tb It seems pretty clear that most (if not all) human beings will have a Gehenna experience. The question becomes, what is the Gehenna experience? If you listen to the father of lies, he will tell you that Gehenna is a place of eternal burning of human beings for the sins they committed over the course of at most 100 years. This idea makes God out to be worse than Hitler. Thankfully, it cannot be reasonably supported from scripture. (Anybody can twist any scripture to make it say anything when taken out of context. Keep everything in context, and everything remains neat and tidy.) But if you watch Jesus and read the Bible, you will conclude that God is love, and a God of love would never do something so unjust, especially to those He loves so deeply. God says in Jeremiah 19:5: "They have built pagan shrines to Baal, and there they burn their sons as sacrifices to Baal. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing!" God is not for burning anybody. > The bible clearly says that our sin nature is an anathema to the purity of God and only through the sacrifice of his son and infinite grace can we be pure enough to be in his presence. If this is true, how was Jesus in the presence of human beings? How was God present with Israel through their desert experience? Unrepentant sinners will not go to heaven. Nobody is suggesting they will. I used to say "God is love, but he is also justice," as well. Do some research as to what God's justice in the Bible means. What is God's wrath? It is not like human wrath. Regardless, is it just to torture a mortal, finite being in burning agony for eternity for sins committed over a finite time? No, it is not. So, no, your concept of hell is not "justice" in any sense of the word. Arbitrary vengeance? Sure. Psychotic retaliation? Yeah. Justice? No.

[@SydneyCarton2085]

@@cklester for better or worse, the fear of eternal hellfire has undoubtedly deterred some from committing atrocities like murder and grape. Lord knows even though for the most part I am averse to the idea of hurting others there have been times when the fear of Gods punishment has kept me from doing so. Maybe it is providence that this healthy fear exists, and it is a healthy fear. At worst it results in some scrupulosity that can turn into serenity knowing that true repentance in reconciliation retroactively atones for sins. For example, many crimes are avoided in society because of legal consequences and since we are born into sin many are inclined to crime. Beyond the insatiable hole left by disordered appetites of the flesh, there really is no incentive for crime anyways. A person has at least two motives to avoid sin, moving away from hell/punishment AND towards heaven/love/reconciliation. Hell is non-Heaven and Heaven is non-hell.

[@geraltgrey-mane695]

What I love the MOST of all these debate videos. It is that both leave rooms for the other to speak, untill both are finished with there points. Its shamefully rare in a debate, that we get to have this kind of calm debates. Such a shame in my mind. Its one of the biggest reason I must force myself, to watch sometimes politic debates on tv etc etc. (Specially under a election year) This comes from a person who loves debates, from small to bigger tophics overall. No wonder most people hate most "debates", if grown adults act like children while debating. Not even just so called "adults" but but grown people who runs/wants to run the bloody country :).

[@BlacksmithTWD]

What we've seen was a conversation, or discussion, not a debate. Main trouble with debates is that participants don't listen to each other with the goal of to try understand what the other is talking about but mainly listen to find something they can provide a counterargument for (often fallacious).

[@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363]

@@BlacksmithTWD In heaven no unclean person is allowed in, you are unclean if you have sinned just once like lying, stealing, sexual immorality, taking the Lord’s Name in vain, evil thoughts etc Jesus (God manifest in the flesh) can put his sinless righteousness on you since He died on the cross, rose from the dead so REPENT AND BELIEVE IN HIM TODAY.

[@BlacksmithTWD]

@@thereisnonegoodbutgodjohn363 What makes you think I haven't already?

[@schannibal1145]

Alex, I suggest you get David Bentley Hart on the podcast at some point. He’s an Eastern Orthodox Christian who makes an arguably compelling case for Christian Universalism, an idea seemingly foreign to mainline denominations that is nonetheless worth exploring.

[@windsqid]

I’ll second David Bentley Hart - his book more or less convinced me of universalism. He’s also generally just interesting to listen to.

[@xaviervelascosuarez]

He's notably disrespectful, self-conceited in his own ideas and haughtily dismissive of everybody who does not agree with him, particularly on the issue of universalism. A very unpleasant individual with a very wrongheaded, even contradictory idea, who oozes contempt through every pore when referring to dissenters. He is also remarkably smart, with a prodigious command of the English language (at which he most distinctly excels when hurling invectives carefully crafted to inflict the highest possible degree of humiliation on his adversaries). In other words, a veritable theistic version of a hybrid between Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins. 😂

[@bigtombowski]

​@Xavier Velasco-Suarez that's why I like him

[@schannibal1145]

He’s certainly conceited, yes, even at his own admission, but to call his universalist stance “wrongheaded” seems a bit much when weighing it against your typical evangelical, traditionalist Christian defenses of eternal perdition. A comparing him to Dawkins and Hitchens was just an added insult to his intelligence, lol

[@JAMESCARNEY273]

I believe universalism to be self-evident from a proper reading of The Bible and it to me is the God that I believe in. All are loved unconditionally and all are ultimately redeemed.

[@wisslewj]

The Christian gentleman that keeps arguing the Bible preaches hell is quite mistaken. It doesn’t preach the modern version of hell at all. As a Christian I’ve spent much time reading scripture in the Greek snd Hebrew. There is NO WORD HELL anywhere in the Bible. There’s Sheol, hades, Gehenna and Tartarus. Only the latter is remotely close to modern hell but even that’s off and more a Greek concept than biblical. (And it’s only there once and applied to angels.) Then there’s the issue that the books that speak of hell ARE NOT to us today. Jesus himself says he came to preach to ISRAEL, so we can’t apply his ministry to them to us. Revelation was written to 7 specific churches about what THEY were about to undergo THAT GENERATION and soon. Finally, the scripture itself says things like, god isn’t forever angry, he won’t be away from people forever, all are made alive, etc etc. That point blank is contrary to some eternal torture chamber. (And never mind the fact that in genesis god blocked immortality so they WOULDN’T spend an eternity in a fallen state. Immortality of the soul is a Greek philosophy, not a Christian one. So god addressed the he’ll issue from the start and Jesus fixed the dead issue.) The gentleman arguing against hell is consistently logical and even biblical, even if he’s not a Christian. I enjoyed his thinking process. Great debate.

[@grayhalf1854]

Thanks for your informed comment. I'm just wondering, from where do you, as a Christian, get your morality?

[@KingdomLifeChristians]

@@grayhalf1854ultimately all morality comes from the spirit of God. But, until we learn to hear his voice and leading, it mostly comes from our culture and upbringing and the laws our lands have established.

[@novaz4768]

its interesting how alot of these christians who understand atheist arguements often have much different views of the religion compared to the norm

[@SydneyCarton2085]

Well most are culturally Christian like myself and took it all for granted until I had to start researching why I am Christian. I am only as bad as society allows and without Gods grace I would slip into acting as such. Where do we get our morals?

[@GingGo2]

@@SydneyCarton2085 we make them ourselves (government)

[@BlapwardKrunkle]

@@SydneyCarton2085 we definetely don’t get our morals from God, unless of course God changes his morals from time to time. I don’t want to follow a God that can’t make up his mind

[@atanas-nikolov]

To be fair, that applies to literally everything in life. If you know nothing about nutrition, you are likely to hold some very misinformed views, where an expert in nutrition will have very nuanced takes. I am yet to find a field in which the popular view is anywhere near adequate.

[@GingGo2]

@@atanas-nikolov Humans like seeing things as black or white. However, if we can let go of our ego and realize that we might be wrong (perhaps not wrong, simply misaligned) only then can we truly hope to gain some truth from this world. You cannot possibly hope to better understand a system if you refuse to hear its case and become more educated on its functions and qualities.

[@IvyLeather13]

Micheal's ideas of Christianity are utterly foreign to the Christianity the majority of people I grew up with were raised with. He's speaking very much for himself here.

[@LtDeadeye]

Agreed.

[@SerendipitousProvidence]

And he's most likely more learned than virtually all if not all those Christians. We look at what the scripture most likely says not what the wider populous thinks and interprets it.

[@SerendipitousProvidence]

​@@LtDeadeye Then they are most likely presenting a false aspect of Christianity.

[@LtDeadeye]

@@SerendipitousProvidence There are various interpretations of Christian doctrine and he seems to know them all. But it also seems he mixes and matches them as needed. His opinions don’t seem to fall squarely into any particular shared Christian denomination except perhaps ‘simple Christianity’. In this way, he can shop around for ‘escape hatches’ and ‘gotchas’ so to speak. It’s almost like a buffet of doctrines. He’s certainly smarter than I am, so I could be wrong.

[@veridicusmind3722]

Merely because these views are not espoused by the Christian culture you're familiar with it in no way follows that these views are not considered, or have not been considered throughout the history of the Church.

[@copernicansun744]

Appreciate the discussion. Thought provoking questions. You did a great job being inquisitive without being antagonistic, mocking, condescending, etc. I would be interested in hearing where the guest came up with his justifications on certain points within scripture (for example people having an option beyond death to get out of hell or being 'burned' via sanctification).

[@roshanjohnson7467]

It is common catholic theology

[@thepatternforms859]

Infinite punishment for a finite offense is the epitome of unjustness

[@S.ENTERTENMENT]

your readed a bible.what's the Mathews lord pray ?

[@areyoumad8224]

"finite offense" that's the point, we can respect some dog from the street but not god?

[@thepatternforms859]

@@areyoumad8224 sorry your comment is unintelligible. Maybe try again with better wording? Maybe you could be more clear. Are you trying to respond to me or what? I’m happy to talk to you but maybe try and form a sentence that makes sense.

[@emjayy1233]

Did you watch the video

[@budp2589]

@@emjayy1233 I hadn't actually but i see now what i missed so thank you

[@jonathanwilliams6922]

Always love your discussions and debates with aspiring philosophy you guys always very polite and cordial thank you

[@UNKLEnic]

Alex, this is what I'm gathering as a newer Christian since 2.12.22. I was an addict (porn/booze/drugs/prescription pills) and clinically depressed/anxiety/insomnia all three I needed to take medication for and after losing my mind, no sleep and body shutting down something inside me told me to repent. It was much harder than I thought because I always thought I'm a good person. Well, I felt the absence of everything good which is what God is and it was TERRIFIING!! I repented and felt forgiven. I can only describe it as a feeling of over an amount of joy/love/forgiveness that hit me so hard that to this day I don't take any medication, substances or porn 100% sobor since. The crazy thing is I don't just not do them but I truly don't want to do them. I then later read the entire bible since I never really read it before and all those things I felt aligned perfectly. I then found out that this story isn't that unusual (Just look up Porn star, gangsters, killers, drug dealer, alcoholics, addict's testimonies who now follow Jesus and are completely transformed) I then know why so many Christians want to share these same exact feeling because I do to. I then started watching Atheist KZbinrs, (GM skeptic, rationality rules, You, Paulogia) to see their angle and I honestly can't see what their endgame is, except to willingly turn themselves and others from God as some sort of profession. Especially when you see what the unsung Christians have done to pave the way we live today (Colleges, Modern Science, homeless and food shelters, orphanages and countless charities) .My point is once you feel that presence leave compared to the sweetness of his forgiveness you realize God does love you so much. I spent my life turning from him and I just needed to simply turn around so-to-speak. The same as I and everyone, like atheist, can't choose to turn away. Its like a Christian can say 'I felt the presence of God therefor I know God exist' but a atheist can't say "I never felt the presence of God therefore I know he doesn't exist' as you can't prove something exist by not experiencing it. Google says there are about 100,000,000 people convert to Christianity a year, that's over 270,000 a day. And most are because they claim they have had a similar experience. another point that you're forgetting Alex is God wants you to simply love him and other people EVEN YOUR ENEMIES. I am so confused when atheist don't put this together. Even if you didn't believe I don't see what the harm is to abide these simple rules or even one rule LOVE or LOVE SELFLESSLY. Your analogy about the dad 'making your son do what he wants or you will make him sleep out in the rain' is missing the whole love part of the story, whether or not these hitchens/ dawkins fellas convince your made up son the love part gets misinterpreted.

[@irenictone8109]

Wow, what a testimony. God bless.

[@SydneyCarton2085]

Right, what the loving father is asking is not only not unreasonable, but good for the child. Sin is an unsustainable way to live and atheists cannot deny this. I do not fuss over the details of heaven and hell but worry more about what I can do here and now and the only way I can love fully is from the frame of reference that God forgives me and loves me otherwise I act out of pride at best any "good deed" would simply be done to please a self image.

[@insertrandomthinghere4847]

I had a very similar experience as you, and I agree with everything you say. I agree so much that I took the time to reply, and I hate commenting with a passion. Stay strong in the faith, brother who I’ve never met. Praise God for your testimony! It’s frustrating because I understand exactly what you mean, but I can’t describe it with words. That’s how God is. I wouldn’t believe it myself if I didn’t experience it firsthand. Just as I can never describe how I know beyond a doubt that God is true, some people will never believe in God even if God himself came down to talk to them. They’ll rationalize it as a hallucination, or them dreaming, or some other x reason. That’s why when people ask for proof of God, I always just want to ask them, what kind of proof do you want? What will it take for you to be 100% convinced that God is real, and that He is as He describes Himself (good, loving, just, holy, etc)? Because there will always be a reason to doubt. Faith only comes from God, and apart from Him no one would believe and be saved.

[@ericcraig3875]

If 100 million people per year caught the christianity mind virus, in 80 years, ALL people would be christian. Yet christianity has been spreading for at least 1,663 years. The truth is that the % of christians in the World plummets every year. Today, less than 70% of America is christian. 200 years ago, America was around 99% christian. Europe is only 64% and was 72% in 2012. After 1663 years, the World in now down to 31.7% christian. Religions can only spread by the sword, because they have no merits. This is the only reason why islam still continues spreading. Christianity used to be mandatory in most countries when it started spreading from the Middle East. Christians conquered many countries, and force converted everyone and indoctrinated their children. Christianity spread by torture, rape, and genocide, and not because it was true. Today, christianity is a trillion dollar industry.

[@izs6946]

Great conversation! My only gripe is that we didn't get to hear much of Alex's stand on these topics as most of it is rather implied through his questions.

[@oscargr_]

It is then more an interview, less a debate. I think that was intentional.

[@SteveVanWinkle]

@@oscargr_ I agree let the man sink his own ship by asking him questions.

[@dickmcwienersonIII]

Since his channel name change he had become much more of just an interviewer

[@algotrobertsson8721]

​@@SteveVanWinkle except it only turned to an circle jerking. Think very few Christian thought Micheal did an bad job at answering. Look at his channel comments. That people that follow this channel think Michael did an bad job is not surprising, only living up to the expected bias.

[@Aaron-cs3xl]

Alex's interview strategy is to ask the kinds of questions that could reveal or highlight inconsistencies in someone's belief. While there are moments where his personal beliefs shine through, such as the non-existence of free will, he still provides evidence for why a person might have not had agency over particular aspects of their life. I do like the interview format because the guest can always explain their view and have the opportunity to defend it, if it is defendable.

[@skrukken]

Great conversation. I am convinced that this is way better, and actually gives more intellectual food for thought, than a fully moderated and heated debate. There is a great focus on the actual substance, instead of trying to quote unquote win.

[@thyikmnnnn]

Unfortunately, in many instances those having these discussions don’t let each other finish their points without interrupting.

[@presupping4eva]

Thanks for having on Michael. 🤙

[@jjkthebest]

I think the drug addict analogy paints a profoundly tragic picture of hell. The people in there would want to get out. They'd be fully aware of the truth and willing to accept it... but still unable to.

[@45rpm.]

When I was about 7 years old the local vicar came to our school to tell us about Christianity, how good God was and that we could all live forever. It had a big effect on me and I told other people about it. I thought everything was going to be alright! The week after the another person told us about catholicism, which I found a bit frightening. Representatives came to tell us about other religions and I realised quickly that it was all just BS. They couldn't all be right with their very different stories. I also learned that grown-ups are sometimes wrong.

[@utubepunk]

"Sometimes". Haha.

[@smdb5874]

when I was 7 I used to run after my grandpa when he gets out to remind him to give me a dollar

[@agusdelgado1207]

The fact that they couldn't all be right doesn't mean that there isn't one that is. The same way you can test people's math and even though you'll get many wrong answers, there is a correct one.

[@kattihatt]

​@@agusdelgado1207 all religions are based on some kind of faith, without logic and proofs. So how could we tell which one is correct?

[@DeliMeatTree]

​@@agusdelgado1207 let me guess. The only religion that's correct is the one you believe in? Arrogant much?

[@brittneyzarwel6242]

Thoroughly enjoyed this. I've followed IP for years, don't think I've ever seen anything from Alex, but love listening to him speak. Very thoughtful & respectful arguments from both sides. 💜

[@piotr.ziolo.]

I have two questions: 1. If God can explain everything and so certainly convince you after your death, why would he wait until you live through this life and not explain everything before? 2. Why would God create people who he will not be able to convince and who will reject him? Why not only create those who will eventually accept him?

[@daviddeida]

God created man in his image,meaning you know right from wrong,you have the capacity to know what is sinful.Its not rocket science.

[@piotr.ziolo.]

@@daviddeida You did not listen to the discussion between Alex and Michael, did you?

[@daviddeida]

@@piotr.ziolo. Why would I bother answering another question without you acknowledging your previous ones?

[@piotr.ziolo.]

@@daviddeida Your previous comment suggests that your understanding of the topic is very shallow, which I attribute to the fact that you probably did not listen to the discussion. If you have a meaningful answer taking into account what was said in the discussion I'm more than curious to see that.

[@renticat]

Because god openly love to torture people. He's cruel.

[@illithidhunter6177]

This whole conversation felt like listening to a Marvel movie fan telling you his original script of how they would make Phase 4. It may sound entertaining at first but after 15mint you want to check out because is just one person's self-indulgence.

[@zapazap]

To be precise, I presume, you are saying that this felt *to you* like this. Fair?

[@illithidhunter6177]

@@zapazap No

[@zapazap]

@@illithidhunter6177 Then to whom are you claiming it felt so, sir?

[@illithidhunter6177]

@@zapazap Listener

[@nonsense6835]

I don't see why pride alone would be a determining factor as to whether you go to hell or not in the first place. If one is a kind person at heart, offering help and love to those around them, but at the same time doesn't wish to prostrate themselves for all eternity. Why must such a person be condemned to hell?

[@S.D.323]

I myself might not have so much of a problem with serving an all loving God its just that the Abrahamic God doesnt seem to fit the bill for a loving or good creator deity now the Flying Spaghetti Monster on the other hand he is a pretty nice guy he boiled for our sins and created tasty ravioli for the whole human race also he has beer volcanoes beat that Christians

[@JamesCavender-me6ei]

The dishonesty of Jones is unparalleled both thoughtful men but Alex is actually humble and honest and Jones would give his last breath to defend a myth that is unbelievable in the 21st century. Grow up kid.

[@cazcow]

What did he say that you found dishonest?

[@RubenKulikyan-e3r]

@@cazcowatheists just wanted to see another Christian get “destroyed” and when the video doesn’t fit their expectations atheists get angry 😅

[@JAWesquire373]

For those interested in a very good critique of annihilationism, there is a good essay by Eastern Orthodox theologian Sergius Bulgakov called “The Problem of ‘Conditional Immortality.’” It was recently translated in a collection called The Sophiology of Death. Bulgakov takes not only a theological stance but a philosophical one as well to critique the implications of either God annihilating persons or persons annihilating themselves. As someone who is a universalist, Bulgakov also puts forward a sound argument for the salvation of all, including Satan and the demons. While I appreciate Michael’s stance against an eternal hell, I think he runs into the same logical and theological issues with God’s omnipotence and maximum love when he posits that God would allow his own creatures to annihilate themselves. The free will of a person is only free if it chooses the Good in which it was made for, so any person to reject the Good to the point of metaphysical suicide doesn’t indicate free will, but insanity. An insanity in which he is a slave to in a way which would implicate God as his maker. Does the image of God reside in a creature like that? If we don’t earn salvation in earthly life, then any life after this would have the same asymmetrical relationship in which God comes after the person in love to save them. But if he desires for the salvation of all (which is theosis by the way) but even one is annihilated, then I’m what sense has he not failed?

[@johnd.shultz7423]

The x-tian believer etc. has a deep seated subconscious Fear of the ending of their ego's= the conditioned christianized ego cannot/willnot face the very real possibility that it will face extinction like any other mortal being and die...

[@mentalwarfare2038]

@@johnd.shultz7423 I appreciate your speaking on behalf of all Christians.

[@ObsidianTeen]

How do you reconcile (libertarian) free will with hard universalism? What's to stop me or someone else from sinning if all ultimately go to heaven? Btw, I'm familiar with Bulgakov and I have a copy of Sophiology of Death.

[@JAWesquire373]

@@ObsidianTeen simple i don’t believe in libertarian free will and “hard” universalism is a misnomer. Free will is not the ability to pick between options as in a gnomic will but to be that which you were made to be. We were made to desire God, so true freedom will always be to desire God and nothing else.

[@ObsidianTeen]

​@@JAWesquire373, surely you believe in libertarian free will in order to account for the first evil choice ever made. Otherwise God or God's decree necessitated the first evil choice. Hard universalism is not a misnomer; it's the view that all will be saved necessarily. On soft universalism all are saved contingently. Hard universalism requires that of necessity, a person stops making evil choices. Hard universalists have to bite the bullet that at least sometimes, an evil person can choose/will good without an alternative. But then why was there the option of evil to begin with, and how, apart from stability in good (Mary, Jesus, Saints in heaven), can one be necessitated to will good?

[@nicholasjonas2505]

it's nice to see a civilized debate on the internet.

[@ShutUpWesley]

No! It is unusual, and that makes me afraid that there is something bad closing in😮

[@smilloww2095]

@@ShutUpWesley What do you mean

[@dragonmartijn]

I only went in for 5 mins 40 seconds and Michael already disappoints. Hell is a real place, with fire, without the ability to escape and you get a new body all the time to keep on receiving pain. Of course you can go on a visit, but then you weren’t judged to be there yet. All people going there know they belong there.

[@smilloww2095]

@@dragonmartijn How could you possible have acquired this information

[@dragonmartijn]

@@smilloww2095 Theology.

[@gusgrizzel8397]

He says he isn't convinced you're stuck in hell. His bible says angels were thrown out of heaven, so if you sin in heaven, you can be thrown out. "We still need to be sanctified." What does that mean? So going through life isn't enough, the game is still on in heaven! Some say you can't sin in heaven, but then, you'd be without choice or freedom. It's a constant circle of illogic.

[@Soapandwater6]

Stellar comment!

[@gusgrizzel8397]

@@Soapandwater6 Thank you!

[@selahr.]

The church’s history of belief is that angels were created with full understanding of who God is, what His plans are for angels and humans, and what their role is in that system. So when they choose to reject Him and His plan, they have all the possible information. So they leave that system, and are removed for Heaven because that will be where humans ultimately reside with more power than the angels in the end. Humans however are born and live on Earth with much less understanding and ability to grasp the entire picture. As we come to know God, and experience life in the spiritual realm after death, then we approach the same level of knowledge that the angels have. And if we choose to accept God and Jesus and their plan for the afterlife in eternity in Heaven with them and the others in that realm, then we won’t have a need or desire to sin (ie move against the plan and the system in Heaven) so we won’t be “kicked out” because there won’t be additional new information that will make us change our decision at that point. “Sanctification” is the process of being willing and able to desire living in accordance with that eternal plan once we have “all the information “ and have dealt with/resolved/been healed from all our human flaws/life traumas/sins/etc that are related to having lived our lives as humans on Earth. Or that’s how I understand the way these ideas have been explored in church history. Now that we have so many denominations that have split over different ideas it’s possible to find some that no longer agree with these earlier ideas.

[@a.i.l1074]

​@@selahr. A big part of my conversion to Christianity was finding out that all my clever objections had been answered, usually more than a millennium ago

[@samehatt5171]

Not really but ok

[@SaikoDeMoN]

"If Hitchens did get the correct information and he still had that mentality, that is who hell is for." OK, now, let's put aside the fact he's basically saying if you think wrong, you burn in hell possibly forever regardless of how you conducted your life. Surely, "correct information" is whatever information is required to burn away any shadow of doubt in your soul. If not, what is "correct information"? Whatever converts the most people? Whatever converts a person god likes? Whatever converts a person Michael approves of? This whole argument seems as frivolous as the bible itself. If god himself can't convert me, he doesn't seem all that great. In that case, god's political gulag may not be as scary either.

[@brandwijkgg]

I commend Alex for his immense patience, I do think that the fact that Michael is a really nice guy plays a big part in that.

[@johanahonen8627]

Can you really be a nice guy with his kind of views?. He seems okey i guess, but also seem to think people deserve to go to hell for very silly things.

[@Zalintis]

​@@johanahonen8627in this SPECIFIC case I think yes because he is really defending a sort of non-Hell Hell that is much more metaphorical and also exclusively thought up by more modern Christian apologetics. He mentioned CS Lewis almost as much as he quoted the Bible. I honestly like his position a lot and think it should be more wide spread among Christians but also think it's pretty disingenuous to argue something that for almost 2000 years would have been seen as Hersey and wishful thinking by the leaders and scholars of his religion.

[@brandwijkgg]

@@johanahonen8627 It's his belief, I can see past that. Strong beliefs hinder the ability to think clearly and logically. Everyone has cognitive barriers. I pay more attention to the way he talks, I can detach that from the details of his beliefs. The way he talks gives me an image of someone who is really convinced that what he believes is the truth. I can't read minds, but I know from my own experience that I have often spoken out about something in the past, when in essence I didn't really know what I was saying exactly. It is a fact that as humans we can be trapped in emotion and feelings, and therefore say strange and/or illogical things and at the same time be very convinced that we are right. His beliefs may not be directly related to his personality and true nature, in my experience he has fallen prey to indoctrination.

[@samuelsprings7245]

⁠@@brandwijkggChristians could say the exact same things about atheists. There are millions of former atheists and agnostics - myself included - as well as people from different religions, who have converted to Christianity because they had personal encounters with Jesus Christ. Eventually, there needs to be accountability taken on the side of the atheist. Either millions of people have lied and are still lying for some reason, they're all clinically insane (unless they believe exactly what you believe), or Jesus Christ is real. You have to pick one of those three options.

[@dylanschweitzer18]

​@@brandwijkggConsidering Michael was an atheist and converted to Christianity in his early adult hood through a round about way (studying Egyptology and ancient religions, his atheist friends said Jesus was basically Horus, knowing this was false, it lead him to research Christianity) I don't think the "indoctrination" or cradle Christian thing can really work.

[@cmlacosta]

Why don't just god explain all these things clearly, by himslef, that every humans can fully understand... instead of letting people to misrepresent him and create more confusion....

[@jessewhite2879]

Yup… if it only was that easy eh! 😅

[@chasekoop1122]

I enjoy this format far more than debates I feel that they are a lot more fruitful regardless of who you are inclined to agree with

[@selfportrait8363]

Around 23:02 alex says, people being compelled, to desire what they desire and ultimately it may not be their fault. But the issue is, people don't automatically change just because they got the right information, if that were the case then, we'd be a bunch of if then else statements walking around. We get the information and we change accordingly, that rarely happens, what happens more than likely is to stay the same even if presented with life changing information. I'm not a Christian, just a little push back to his argument.

[@Geaxuce]

Finally! This has been a conversation I've been waiting for for a few years. Going to check your other debates after this

[@inajosmood]

Wow, the wait is over now. How is your life after getting what you've been waiting for, for so long?

[@VaughanMcCue]

@@inajosmood A hell-of-a-wait has come to an end.

[@stevem7945]

Michael Jones doesn't seem to realise that he's simply creating yet more B grade Fan Fiction.

[@johannpopper1493]

It's schlock, but it's better than D level fanfic like, "Once upon a time, everything was a dark and stormy singularity without any context or purpose. The End."

[@letsomethingshine]

@@johannpopper1493 OMG I thought you were reading the bibliolatry at first, because seriously the "jealously patient random wrath" god/gott/gaut/goth "with face hidden in dark clouds" is rather just "existing there without any context or purpose" with a way uglier and less testable story than science presents.

[@johannpopper1493]

@@letsomethingshine You're right. God is alone, and for God alone, atheism is true. If the atheist model is true, then you are God, or an illusory part of the thing. Would you make other people? Treat them well? Get angry sometimes? What would you do with all the Hitlers?

[@Mayordomo32]

It’s completely irrelevant what some person speculates, like when he quotes these theologians. All that matters is what the Bible actually says, everything else is just wishful thinking or fanfiction.

[@HopefulAgnostic]

@@johannpopper1493 But noone puts the emergence of the universe like that xD

[@constancetorseth6648]

The primary problem I see with every faith-based system is that each is just as likely to be true as all of the others because all of them require belief prior to demonstrating even just the weakest evidence of itself. If there really was an all-powerful god, and if an eternity of hell were a real threat, claiming to know the mind and desires of such a being could be exactly the thing that it might find offensive. The only logical position is to take no position. Humans are arrogant enough without going around believing we might know what the creator of the universe might be thinking.

[@a.i.l1074]

Not so. I am a Christian because I think that there are good philosophical arguments for supposing that God is the type of god found in the Abrahamic religions, and that there is enough historical evidence to make Jesus' ministry historical and his resurrection more likely than not

[@TheAndnor]

​@@a.i.l1074 did you believe in some other religion before? Or did you grow up as an atheist?

[@a.i.l1074]

@@TheAndnor Grew up atheist. Atheist family at least 2 generations back, majority atheist but historically Christian country

[@TheAndnor]

@@a.i.l1074 Ok. Just curious 😊 Why did you start believing? I have never heard a good philosophical argument, and those that exist can be equally well applied to other religions. And historical evidence for jesus, sure. But we have better evidence for Mohammed, and the quran doesnt contain nearly as many errors and contradictions as the bible, so why not be a muslim?

[@a.i.l1074]

@@TheAndnor difficult question, it was a long process. Two things helped: 1. I used to engage with these questions like "let's debunk this ridiculous superstition", but then I noticed that genuinely intelligent people believed it. You say none of the arguments are any good, I've got to disagree: when you spend a lot of time with them and really get into the details, atheism is not clearly the most rational position. 2. There are some half-way positions which were more palatable to hold at first. Like religious experiences are real phenomena, God is real in the way that morality and love are, religion has some benefits or beauty. Slippery slope We probably have more evidence about the minutiae of Mohammed's life, but his main miraculous claims are the night journey and the revelation of the Quran. Those do not impress me. There are more plausible explanations for the rise of Islam, like the Arabs adapting the faith of the Jews and Christians they conquered. The central miracle of Christianity is the resurrection, which had hundreds of witnesses and was falsifiable at the time the Gospels were written. I haven't heard a theory of what happened during and after Jesus' ministry that better explains the historical data.

[@markdoughty8780]

A thoroughly enjoyable debate, conducted in an air of civility and respect; a credit to both sides - thanks for uploading.

[@hollenfeuer1]

He's a really good example of what a Christian should be. What a good dude. Thank you for inviting him Alex, and thank you Michael.

[@Andromedon777]

I would say there's a lot of unbiblical things he believes. From a Christian perspective, it's like a pseudoscientist being interviewed. Not quite standard.

[@nakkadu]

You mean making up his own version of Christianity?

[@nakkadu]

@PeaceMaker I don't care about the "3 views"......the Bible clearly says hell is eternal and that the only way to heaven is by accepting jesus.

[@nakkadu]

@PeaceMaker The guy we are commenting about makes up his own version of Christianity where Hell isn't eternal and you can get to heaven without accepting Christ ...I'm not talking about Universalism, I'm talking about this video. I'm not a believer but I have read the Bible and this guy isn't representing the Bible or mainstream Christianity.

[@nakkadu]

@PeaceMaker I can't remember how he worded it but he did say it...and he explicitly said he believes Hell needn't be forever, again, I haven't even mentioned universalism that has nothing to do with my point.

[@jc1daddy2]

Awesome conversation. Thank you.

[@DANGJOS]

Fascinating conversation! His view on hell is definitely very different from the mainstream Christian view

[@DrownedinDesigner]

Not really

@@DrownedinDesigner I was raised catholic in Spain and I never met anyone who described hell or heaven anywhere close on what he did. His position defies most of the history of Christian dogma

[@Iwillreply]

@ My initial thought was, "He has tried to address a discrepancy he (or someone else) identified in the different passages, and has created a version (not that he is the first to do so) that includes enough from the original material (the stuff that doesn't seem to contradict), that it allows him to still pursue the religion carefully, but still not antagonistically." I'm glad he, at least here, has done this. The typical depiction of a Christian and their views on hell are worrisome, and not well thought out.

[@drockopotamus1]

@ That's not true, though. Anecdotal examples aren't data. We can see what religious philosophers have been saying for thousands of years. What a pastor in Spain said in your youth doesn't equate to "most of the history of Christian dogma."

[@Prime_Legend]

@ While not exact, THERE WERE early greek church fathers that held a view similar to Michael, because of how the duration of hell is described in the original greek, which referred moreso as a long age of correction thaN eternal torment. Though this is still often disputed today, so I'm not sure.

[@robertchflynn]

at 36:58 Alex forces Jones to say that he "doesn't know and no one does" in his response. Well done Alex. This is Jones' only honest answer of the day and one in which more christians should follow. Single highlight though because after that he goes back to knowing everything that god wants once again...

[@sordidknifeparty]

He says that a rapist who seeks forgiveness on his deathbed from Christ doesn't get forgiven because he still has to have an accounting with God. But I'm certain he believes that anyone who confesses Christ as the son of God and genuinely repent their sins to Christ passes that accounting. So it's simply a semantics game-a rapist who confesses on his deathbed gets into heaven

[@levykenway1471]

Ofc but they still need to be judged

[@colinross3755]

@@levykenway1471 while their innocent victim who is an atheist gets punished for eternity - some morality you’ve got there

[@jjk4002]

You still have to live in Jesus’ word to actually go to heaven

[@colinross3755]

@@jjk4002 then you support an immoral system

[@forget4478]

@@colinross3755 who are you to decide their faith lol

[@grantparker6092]

I love how near the beginning he fights back against Alex saying that people can’t choose what compels them but then later says he wishes Universalism was true but doesn’t necessarily believe it

[@hyreonk]

Sure, but a person may not always choose what they believe based on personal feelings. A person may choose what compels them because they really do think it's most in agreement with truth.

[@Vulcan_GamingYT]

@@hyreonkthat’s exactly what many atheists do with belief in god… yet I see so many believers claiming that atheists “choose” to disbelieve god. This is one of the biggest points Michael seemed to miss in this conversation… if atheists aren’t choosing not to believe, then how is it justified to send them to hell?

[@hyreonk]

@@Vulcan_GamingYT right, as Michael explained before, and in this video, he believes in repentance after death - so nonresistent nontheists will likely end up on the right side of eternity. Even if it takes them a bit of catching up (purgatory). I don't agree, but I only know myself. I deserve hell. I now live in repentance. Thank God for the gospel. If you're anything like me - and you are the same species, so you probably are - then Jesus died for your sins, too. I'd be happy to discuss any objections you may have.

[@tommytwo-times9053]

@@hyreonkwhat about the chinese man that lived two thousand years before jesus did? does he deserve hell forever despite not having the same opportunities as you to repent?

[@hyreonk]

​@@tommytwo-times9053 The Catholic church affirms with the early Christian writer Justin Martyr that "We have been taught that Christ is the First-born of God, and we have suggested above that He is the logos of whom every race of men and women were partakers. And they who lived with the logos are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and people like them." In short: Jesus is the Word. Some non-Christians came to acknowledge the existence and dedicate their life to the Word. In a real sense, they are Christians. They not only had the same opportunity to repent - they took it.

[@johnwatts219]

It sounds like Mike's position was something akin to purgatory, an escapable hell (but v. difficult to leave?), and really I feel like purgatory would be much more reasonable than hell (and I take it purgatory would less be about punishment/suffering than rehabilitation), perhaps a human soul does have to be purified before it could enter heaven

[@robvalue]

Great conversation! Although this version of events sound better at first, it still has a lot of very strange issues to my mind. God is apparently happy for almost everyone to have the wrong information about himself and what exactly a "sin" is until after they are dead, including most Christians. Then at that point you are faced with a hugely painful event to get into heaven, based on breaking rules you didn’t even properly know about.

[@martytu20]

God could very possibly not be happy with us having mere knowledge of his existence. To wrestle with the knowledge, to pray and meditate over passages you read, brings about a deeper participatory knowledge. Misinformation should not affect our faith if we see counter arguments. MAGA, flat earthers and antivaxxers are hardened by prior conviction, but found studies or sources that confirm their biases. Romans 1:1o-20 states that God is known through observation, in 20, his ontological attributes can be clearly perceived.

[@bengreen171]

michael Jones is the king of making stuff up to make his religious belief seem less obviously incoherent, and ending up with something even more incoherent. as an example, literally the first assertion he makes - that 'hell is metaphorical since we lose our physical bodies, and how would fire hurt you' - completely undermines his belief that the material world is non existent in reality and that the physical is the product of the mental. If the 'mental' is all that exists, then whatever he asserts is actually being represented by what we call the physical realm is just as metaphorical as the supposed Hell he imagines. So in one foul swoop he's contradicted his entire worldview, just to pretend that the Biblical Hell is not what it seems to be.

[@letsomethingshine]

Bibliolatry is bibliolatry, regardless of which canon, version, or edition the pagan-mind descendant chooses. Will it be the one from King James of England? Will it be the American Catholic Bishiops' NABRE version? The Greek Orthodox Septuagint, that includes apocrypha? The Ethiopian canon with many more apocrypha than others? And there are many more.

[@chrisgray7737]

He is also the king of quoting CS Lewis

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Your the king of ignorance about the Bible!

[@bengreen171]

@@chrisgray7737 yeah, there was a couple of years where all the American apologists quoted Lewis - Americans are easily impressed by an English accent. They don't tend to rely on him these days since atheists weren't impressed.

[@chrisgray7737]

@@bengreen171 I have noticed that even firsthand with a friend of mine that is pastor. He said to me “CS Lewis was right, huh?” I replied “Bertrand Russell I thought was right”

[@pixboi]

This is great, because I sort of discovered you two at the same time. Cool journey introducing myself first to Michaels various video essays on the famous arguments, then looking Alex's sort of rebuttals or doubts. I think that still Leibnitz ' argument is the most solid :)

[@bruhdabones]

What was the Leibniz argument again?

[@pixboi]

@@bruhdabones It's similar to the first mover argument, and kalam is like an extension into it. Every thing can be explained by an event before it, so everything that exists has some kind of cause or causer. Leibnitz argues that universe began to exist, so something must be beyond it that caused it to exist, some kind of transcendental force. Look up Cosmological argument, im not good at wording it.

[@bruhdabones]

@@pixboi oh I get it, thanks

[@justaway6901]

​@@pixboi What's before God?

[@pixboi]

@@justaway6901 i consider whatever greater than the universe out of comprehension to possess some God qualities, and I believe that kind of thing doesn't need a causer for it is the ultimate beginning. If there was something before God, it wouldn't be considered a god, perhaps a minor god.

[@mito88]

“I don’t want to go to heaven. None of my friends are there.” - Oscar Wilde

[@samdg1234]

Kind of presupposes one will have friends in hell, doesn’t it?

[@AB-et6nj]

@@samdg1234 Sherlock Holmes? Is that you?

[@goldilocks913]

@@AB-et6nj no shit it is 😂

[@howtheworldworks3]

Of course none of his friends are there because no one is there because it does not exist. Same for hell.

[@gsp3428]

I am pretty sure Wilde sexually abused young boys.

[@LindenAstle]

It continues to Astonish me as to how any reasonably intelligent person can talk about , believe in and claim the existence of God (s) that stem from bronze / iron age shaman invented myths , fables and stories based on ignorant superstitious notions of causes of the origins of mysterious phenomenon that our sciences have explained and solved but that we continue to believe in without any evidence whatsoever !

[@minor00]

I'd love to hear a part 2 with either Glenn Peoples of Right Reason or Chris Date of Rethinking Hell! I think they would give very different answers that would be closer to my own views of course haha

[@АртурИванов-ч9э]

Atheist: does God send people to hell? Christian: No! No! Well, but actually... YES.

[@justus4684]

He super-intends it, which is morally arguably not really different from sending people

[@noname19816]

Educated Christians will refer to C. S. Lewis' idea that the gates of hell are locked from the inside.

[@JohnusSmittinis]

@@justus4684 Took me a while to figure out what “morally” and “arguably” were modifying. . .

[@ReformedR]

He sends people to hell based upon their own moral decisions but atheists want to reject autonomy and accountability when it suits them. Atheists: why should I go to jail for killing that man Me: did you desire to do it?, did you use the weapon, did you have the ability to walk away? Atheist: yes Me: Then you chose to do the crime that sends you to jail

[@АртурИванов-ч9э]

@@ReformedR Well, well, well. Tell us in more detail how hell is connected with responsibility. And also about the purpose of imprisonment and the purpose of being sent to hell, well, since you made such an analogy.

[@shassett79]

My takeaway, an hour later: To resolve the obvious tension between the notion of an all-loving god and the idea of (nearly?) eternal torment in Hell, you just have to find increasingly abstract and flowery ways to say, "Yeah, but the people in Hell deserve it."

[@TacosnZorro]

You're forgetting the all good and just part of God's nature. Because if He is all just then what the hell would be just about letting someone who spent their lives serving the poor spend eternity in the same place with Hitler? Seriously. Can someone explain that idea? Because hell seems far more reasonable from that perspective.

[@dulls8475]

@@TacosnZorro Just read the Bible so you don't get a Chinese whispers version of it.

[@S.D.323]

@@TacosnZorro that idea still sounds less horrible than many peoples ideas of Hell

[@devilsadvocate7389]

God is all knowing and nothing happens without his will. People choose to go to hell because they refuse to obey gods command. See how these two things cannot coexist at the same time?

[@RubenKulikyan-e3r]

No that is not contradictory

[@raphyd1466]

Why didn't Michael come right out and say that he believes in free will when Alex began to talk about people not being at fault? That would have made the part about people sending themselves to hell a lot shorter. Because ultimately, Michael's view has to be that despite all influencing factors, we still have the capacity to decide freely enough where we want to spend the afterlife.

[@TheFranchfry]

I have a feeling that Alex has quite the intellectual gauntlet of podcasts lined up for us.

[@MaryLWickre]

When he's describing the flat earthers' psychology: "They're fighting the evil empire." "They're the ones who know the truth." Sounds like early Christian mentality.🤔

[@TheRealShrike]

That's exactly what I thought! I immediately thought of inspiring philosophy not seeing the irony that he was describing himself.

[@alittax]

One thing I liked a lot was that when one of them spoke, I agreed with them, until the other one took his turn, at which point I agreed with him. That's how convincing their arguments were. (This wasn't always the case but in a lot of cases.)

[@dragonmartijn]

Are you sure it was about reasoning and not about you having a lack of character 😅🫣❤

[@alittax]

@@dragonmartijn Yes, it would be a sign of a stubborn character if you didn't see why someone's argument was convincing just because it didn't agree with your previous views. :) I'm glad I'm lacking a character like that. :P

[@spiritmatter8398]

Alex as usual you offer a more practical analysis of this saga we've found ourselves in... You actually asked a question I've been asking others for a while now: "where is God in all this?" Not in those exact words of course but pretty close. And although I'm not an atheist or Christian I very much enjoy your work. Keep it up. Hope to have an interaction with you someday.

[@eswn1816]

Actually, listening to Alex intellectually question God's righteous judgement made my stomach turn... 😢

[@martytu20]

That is a question even believers ask (Psalms is riddled with songs inquiring about God’s presence). It’s something very human, to ask for a deity’s presence and where the deity is. We could be approaching the end times, but that is conjecture and we ultimately do not know. God in his omniscience does know what the best time would be. Our foreknowledge is still relatively limited, because of the fog of decisions we cannot reasonably factor in.

[@jimijenkins2548]

@@eswn1816 Remember the Bereans, who scrutinized Paul's teachings and compared them against scripture. Earnestly seeking truth will lead you to God. Jesus himself said "I am the way, the truth, and the life." Rejoice at Alex's questioning, if he does so earnestly, it will lead him to truth.

[@GrolskslorG]

​@@eswn1816yeah man, totally uncool to question the bible. We are commanded to obey and trust in Jesus. How dare we use the intellect that we were cursed with by Adam and eve eating from that stupid tree of knowlwdge.

[@eswn1816]

@@jimijenkins2548 Re-read my comment. It's not about his examining and comparing scriptures... It's about his questioning the judgement of God. BIG difference! 🙏

[@Prince_Jameson]

So I’m about 10 minutes into the video at this point and I wish I could be in on this conversation to give a completely different viewpoint on the afterlife/heaven/hell posed by LDS theology. I was raised LDS/Mormon and even served a mission but am now agnostic. However, I enjoy religious discussions and especially explaining the LDS viewpoint from both inside and outside their bubble. I’d very much enjoy being a guest on your show in one of these discussions if you ever want me on.

[@curtisben79]

As an Orthodox Christian this was a very interesting conversation! Michael is quite close to the Orthodox conception of hell but is unfortunately dragged down by being committed to a legal framework of sin, and connected to that, penal substitutionary atonement.

[@samanthaannfuchsgruber]

I am a Christian but could you elaborate more on this?? I rather enjoyed his opinion but what is your view of hell?

[@curtisben79]

@@samanthaannfuchsgruber It's been a couple of months since I've watched the video so this may not be entirely accurate, but Michael describing hell more as a state or experience rather than a literal place, and that the punishment of hell is more internal rather than externally imposed is quite close to the Orthodox view. However, in the Orthodox Church we would describe salvation primarily as theosis or deification. So our salvation from sin and death in Christ is through becoming like Christ, becoming deified. Michael seems like he holds to some form of penal substitutionary atonement however which teaches that we are essentially saved from God's justice through Christ taking the punishment due to us, and so salvation becomes not only transactional, but meaningless in terms of sin and death. And so because of this Micheal doesn't seem to fully be able to connect the atonement with the eschatological reality. Hope that makes some sense! I would probably have to rewatch the video to give specifics.

[@samanthaannfuchsgruber]

​@@curtisben79 Thank you so much for your help!!! That is very helpful. I definitely would say I believe in "substitutionary atonement" and conduct myself in real life as though everyone is going to heaven (assuming that everyone will find God). However, that is how I conduct myself. I know God suffered for us and for that reason, some souls are in hell. It is not an empty or imaginary place.

[@sillythewanderer4221]

@@samanthaannfuchsgruber this is not the only view within Orthodoxy, the issue is complex (as you know) and the eastern churches have always put a bit more emphasis on mystery, that is in the end, we cannot know for certain, in this life at least. sin is usually thought of as an illness and Christ the physician.

[@samanthaannfuchsgruber]

@@sillythewanderer4221 thank you for your reply. I really appreciate this. I fell in love with the scholastic nature of Catholicism (Christ reached me through my mind) but of course, this was primarily done through my heart thanks to the Holy Spirit. I deeply love the Orthodoxy emphasis on mysticism. Sometimes, getting too caught up in the endless dance of rationality and apologetics can be negative for spiritual growth. We are not merely here to think. We are here from Love Himself to love other people. That is the highest goal, and it is beautiful. I am now inspired to deepen my spiritual journey. God has been far too kind to me and I do not wish to let that go.

[@hm5142]

The idea is that there is an omnipotent being, and he chooses to spend his time punishing and rewarding humans severely strains credulity. Talk about a waste of talent! Only in a religious context would anyone even think about believing such a thing.

[@corydor4218]

For most people, God, heaven and hell occupy a very small fraction of their time, if at all. Their lives are spent providing for themselves and their loved ones. Most people live their lives without the intent to harm and most people do not cause intentional harm, with or without embracing God. Moments of tragedy, death or dying often increase God-consciousness momentarily when the suffering is overwhelming. It is however nonsense to believe that heaven or hell is their ultimate destiny, based on their belief or not in God.

[@Soapandwater6]

It is as if the only thing in this life that matters is having the gullibility to believe in something unseen. Gullibility. That's all.

[@JohnCamacho]

"Given the right information" could be very simplistic. We have our own biases and our own way of perceiving things. 10 different people given the same info can still come out with 10 different perceptions.

[@Greyz174]

This is a simplistic view of what "right information" encompasses Part of "right information" would address the misapprehensions that lead to our biases and tell us proper ways to manage the biases

[@Greyz174]

It's also not the same information for all 10 people, it would be the right sets of information for each of them

[@user-wb2yv7ll9d]

It seems so difficult and challenging for a human being in this world; for someone simply trying to do what's right. All of this can make a person scared to just be alive lest one do the wrong thing or believe the wrong thing.

[@endoalley680]

What if the kid who never met his father, and this due only to his fatherś negligence as a parent says, ¨Father where have you been all my life? You have been an absent parent for more than a decade. And now all of the sudden you arrive and want me to adore you. If I adore and emulate your behavior (absentee parenting) then you claim i will be rewarded. (Actually, father can't find time in his busy schedule to meet his child, so he sends his attache to inform the boy) If I deny your goodness and choose not to adore you, I am to be set on fire and burned alive." He may claim to adore father to avoid pain and get his cool stuff. But one might question how deep his affections run.

[@Daily_Dose_Of_Wisdom]

This was cool! Let’s pray that Jesus breaks through to this English chap 🙏❤️

[@ryanthomas7119]

I hate to break it to ya but "Jesus" never broke through to you.

[@jadehart2257]

@@ryanthomas7119 Hi, um... Jesus saved my life. He is amazing and perfect and holy. Don't tell people their own life story. It's equivalent to someone saying, "I was lost in a desert with no water and my friend brought me water so I lived." and you saying, "I hate to tell you this, but no one brought you water." So how are we alive? How do we have joy? How do we suddenly know what true love is? How do we worship and dance and serve others? Because Jesus touched us! He saved, changed, and loved us!

[@S.D.323]

@@jadehart2257 Ive managed to resist making a joke about the sentence Jesus touched us due to my amazing self-restraint anyway in the desert analogy there is no other explanation for it other than well water Im not so sure that is the case with people having religious or mystical experiences its at least not obvious to everyone that that is the case

[@RubenKulikyan-e3r]

@@S.D.323what’s the joke 😅 I promise I won’t be offended

[@ericcraig3875]

Jones contradicts everything jesus says about hell.

[@utubepunk]

It speaks to someone's character who wants this to be true.

[@gusgrizzel8397]

Good point. This guest thinks he knows what is the truth, but it's all conjecture and fantasy on his part.

[@johannpopper1493]

And their experiences. For example, if you were a victim of severe violence, and your abuser was unrepentant, and you didn't think it appropriate for him to go to Hell, you'd be a pervert, and nobody would ever want to live with you because you'd lack a sense of justice -- i.e. it indicates your conscience is abnormal and cognition too untrustworthy to be able to long survive as a social animal.

[@gusgrizzel8397]

@@johannpopper1493 The whole idea that only God is the one to judge, as if we aren't morally capable of that.

[@jerrythecanary96]

@@johannpopper1493 Or it would indicate that you don’t lack conscience, but instead can realize Hell is inherently unjust.

[@johannpopper1493]

@@gusgrizzel8397 Jesus told his disciples that God wants them to judge the world, when they're ready, not before. Does God know more than everybody put together? We don't seem especially capable of governing the world extremely well.

[@AM_o2000]

25:24 Jones's distinction between flat-earthers and religious believers seems untenable. When he says that, in contrast to flat-earthers, (good) Christians accept that 'we are not the centre of the universe, it's not all about us, we're not going to be the hero of this story', how does that chime with the idea of the immortalisation of the self in a paradise alongside the creator of the universe, and how is such a vision anything other than egotistical?

[@JD-wu5pf]

47:20 Michael Jones doing Soul Algebra and trying to calculate how long someone would last before their soul is 'disintegrated into nothing' is hilarious. Do religious people not realize how silly they sound?

[@Giorginho]

Thats pretty silly because thats not how hell works. But its much less sillier than utilitarian morality calculations

[@charliethecoyote2896]

​@@Giorginho IP said that his morality, based in god, embraces everything that an utilitarian morality, based on wellbeing, would. So I think he does the exact same utilitarian calculations. Maybe you should tell us what the better alternative is?

[@pyrotek45]

@@Giorginho its pretty silly considering hell isn't real.

[@VaughanMcCue]

@@pyrotek45 I admire your cool name, and I suspect you are an air-cond specialist. If the hell hole exists, your experience will be welcome. I think hell is real because I let my brain hear IP talk nonsense.

[@atheisticallyspeaking1217]

Michael Jones pretending to know things he doesn't and can't ever know. But then, that's what faith is right?

[@roshantjoy4871]

To most of the questions, Michael just admits he doesn't know. I am furious when he says that. How can anyone preach their worldview with so much conviction and expect others to follow it, but at the same time fail to give answers to basic questions.

[@johannpopper1493]

Because not all knowledge is made of deductions, not even deductions.

[@johnbuckner2828]

At least dude is rational. I kind of see it like a naturalist being asked what happened before the Big Bang; just because the cosmologist scratches his head when you ask him what happened before time began, doesn’t necessarily mean most of his beliefs about the world are fiction, even though that part of his worldview seems absurd.

[@thewindgamer2607]

I actually really liked it. I notice i find it easier to trust people who aren’t afraid to say i don’t know. That gives more credibility to his arguments because you can tell he is honest and humble

[@ttocsic1235]

religious people often resort to a kind of "god works in mysterious ways" approach when they don't have a convincing answer. which leads to the question of how they can speak with such conviction on the motivations of something that apparently has mysterious motivations.

[@roshantjoy4871]

@@johnbuckner2828 But i dont think any cosmologist would say whatever our current understanding of the universe is the absolute truth. But for a religious guy it's all dogmas, unchangeable. Secondly, religious truths demands much more than scientific truths. If a particular religion is true, we must change our entire personality to align with its beleif sets, and live our only life following its rules. And if you happen to choose wrong religion you're at risk of eternal punishment. So atleast for me, i need to be certain about all of a religion's claims, before subscribing to it. I think that's possible if its god is omnipotent. But in science you can tolerate such uncertainty. Because not accepting a theory doesn't cause you any suffering. If a religion says homosexual acts are sin, and that religion is not the true religion, an adherant follower of that religion but happens to be gay, out of fear of hell, stay away from all the fun he could have had. Thats a huge cost. So you need to be so sure about what you beleive is actually true. But in science just because we dont know what the initial state of the universe was, we don't need to dismiss the theory of relativity. Because we find many applications of this theory and Infact it's UPTO US if we want to beleive in this thoery or not. No one's getting punished here.

[@thomassimmons8963]

Alex, superb. Really helps someone that doesn’t encounter these conversations in everyday life to enlighten themselves.

[@deaconsyxx322]

I struggled with your channel through the vegan phase. May be my own hypocrisy being highlighted to me, but goodness gracious I’m glad to be back on your content. Some of my favourite content anywhere. I don’t find much that scratches that philosophical, intellectual itch. Plus I’m jealous that you and Chris Williams are friends, I’d love to end up on an after dinner table with you pair 👍🏻 Thank you Alex 😊

[@seandmoore6922]

The issue of a literal Hell consisting of “eternal conscious suffering” was the lynch pin in the deconstruction of my almost forty years as an evangelical fundamentalist. Michael’s view is not even consistent with the majority of Christians today or in history. Just another theological belief that is not universal….along with every other doctrinal issue in Christianity that no two people can agree upon. Love ya Alex.

[@ScepticalJunkie27]

I was a agnostic and decided to learn as much as I can about religions to see if there was truth to their claims. I had no bad experiences and went in with a truly open mind. I now consider myself as an agnostic atheist. I don't understand how anyone can believe after knowing the history of religions and where these stories come from. If I am wrong, all God needs to do is to show me but he seems to refuse, or more likely he does not exist.

[@dulls8475]

Build a simple cell. When you cant acknowledge the incredible designer behind this.

[@reg-pi1sr]

​@@dulls8475 Can you show me god creating a simple cell

[@dulls8475]

@@reg-pi1sr I cant even show you workmen building Westminster Abbey.

[@nickrondinelli1402]

If you don't go to hell for not knowing about Jesus or knowing him incorrectly for whatever reason and the goal of the christians is to get as many people to heaven as possible, then they shouldn't tell anyone about jesus so that everyone can go to heaven.

[@andrewprahst2529]

You don't automatically go to hell for not knowing about Jesus, but not knowing doesn't guarantee heaven

[@SPL0869]

@@andrewprahst2529 then why does the Bible say that he’s the only way to the father and that in order to be saved one must confess with his mouth and believe in his heart that Jesus was raised from the dead? Sounds like not knowing him is a pretty automatic ticket to hell according to scripture. Unless of course, I’m somehow “taking it out of context” right?

[@andrewprahst2529]

@@SPL0869 Because we will all meet Jesus at the end of time and will have that chance to proclaim him as Lord. In Matthew 25, this scenario is described: "Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ And the king will answer them, ‘I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’" Matthew 25:34‭-‬40 NET So in this passage, people were serving Jesus even though they didn't think they knew him, and when given the chance to see him face to face.

[@johannpopper1493]

@@SPL0869 Exactly. You're taking it completely out of context. Jesus also says that those who do the right things, but deny God, can be saved too, because believing in him consists in doing what he would command -- actual good works. There is no faith separate from works. They come packaged together, and intention to do good works immediately before dying is obviously sufficient for someone about to be resurrected in the future. The reality is that there is no text that isn't saying many different and important things by the use of even one sentence. When God inspires words, it's like a nuclear bomb of exploding contexts and layers. Anybody who insists on there being only unicontextual text, frankly, doesn't know how to read or think normally.

[@SPL0869]

@@andrewprahst2529 ok, yeah I’ve heard this one before. So if there was already a system in place that actually leads to a better world and a much less confusing salvation doctrine then why did god need to even muddy the waters and send Jesus in the first place? I mean we hear all the time about how our “good works” are like filthy rags to God, which is why Jesus was needed but thats evidently not true. I mean if all I needed to do is feed and help those less fortunate to get to heaven then that seems like a much better message than hating gay people and subjugating women now doesn’t it?

[@toondesmarets3033]

The fallacy of Michael Jones is that he believes that people have free will and can make free choices. He believes that people could have done/choosen otherwise in their live. It’s a misconception…

[@samuelandmarikaadams9837]

Surely, anyone in history who was crucified or tortured to death and went to hell suffered a worse fate than Jesus.

[@DraperReacts]

No, because even if you suffered through crucifixion, you will never be able to take on the mental toll that Jesus did: taking all of the sin of the world. I don’t mean to spread negativity, just a thought 🙏

[@samuelandmarikaadams9837]

@DraperReacts but surely the sin of the world is the sin of every person who has lived and will live. It is a lot of people but not infinite. Burning in hell or Eternity is literally maximum pain for infinity. I would pick maximum pain for one evening then maximum pain for eternity. But anyway, this is all nonsense

[@TheArtiKle]

⁠@trapd00rspiderthere is no evidence that hell is finite in the scripture. You and the speaker in this video are inventing stuff to make yourselves feel better.

[@3dge--runner]

I love the irony in which this guy talks about flat earthers and how they don't care about what's really true, and at the same time he is holding beliefs himself that have no foundation in reality (Christianity). It's the simple fact that we just like being part of a particular story where we are a character of significance and specialty, which is true of both flat earthers and Christians.

[@smadaf]

I do not understand people who say that admitting their wrongs is one of the most painful things, that it "sucks" and "hurts like hell". Thinking and talking accurately about your deeds is one of the best feelings. _Having done_ a bad thing can hurt; and being subjected to punishment or retaliation for a misdeed can hurt: but how can the admission hurt? What is the fun in denying a _reality_ that you _already know_ about?

[@UrbanERecycling]

I agree. I noticed that too. I never thought it 'sucked' to apologize. If I hurt someone or wrong someone, I don't mind saying I am sorry. Maybe that is a Christian thing.

[@smadaf]

@@UrbanERecycling , when you say "Maybe that is a Christian thing", what does "that" refer to? Does "that" mean "not minding saying you're sorry" or "finding it painful to say you're sorry"?

[@Randomsae]

I don't think it's in the admission, but the revelation to others. I think the point is that if you've done a bad thing and hide it, it'll hurt when you are found out. I know that's not what he said, but I think it's more accurate to what others believe. I don't understand why saying you are wrong would hurt unless you are worried about your bad deed coming to light.

[@ChuckChuckWood]

My thoughts exactly when I heard this, I think this is more relevant to someone who follows a doctrine, because I regularly and quite easily admit when I've discovered I'm wrong. There's a whole host of positives but primarily it's because recognising an error is a step closer to the "right" answer, it's absolutely necessary when wokring in a scientific field.

[@smadaf]

@@ChuckChuckWood , it's been weeks since I listened to this; but my recollection is that I took him to be talking about deeds, more than thoughts and words, and ethical or moral wrongs, not scientific errors-e.g., cheating on your spouse, not faultily defining the control-group in your report of the experiment you've finished. Still, I'm with you. Whenever I discover that I have erred-even I realizing that I saw a fox on Monday evening but told someone it was Tuesday evening-, my most pressing desire is to issue the correction to all who were given the wrong information. When I was much younger, I vehemently denied my mistakes, because I had gotten the message from others' behavior that that was what to do; for most of my life, though, I've thought it's just embarrassing to deny one's errors once one recognizes them. The trouble, of course, is that some people give you hell for messing up-and in some cases 'it's damned if you do, damned if you don't' (in their eyes you compound your misdeed by failing to admit it, and you compound your misdeed by admitting it).

[@glorificus929]

So God puts us through literal pain of hell on earth as we experience pains of emotional maturation (sorry, becoming Christlike) to finish the job of 'refining' us after we die. If hell is absence of God, how is God everywhere again? Apologetics is stupid and a waste of time and the one life we have because it prevents emotional maturity.