Could God Command a School Shooting? - William Lane Craig

Watch the full conversation: • William Lane Craig Def...
Main channel: / @cosmicskeptic

[@richardhedd3080]

If i was accused of murder I'd want WLC speaking in my defense. Imagine the emotional trauma I've suffered as the murderer.

[@wetfishbits]

May be the family of the murder victim should be fined for causing you distress

[@b.porterv7418]

This made me laugh out loud literally.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

I only wish WLC could read that comment.

[@divinity996]

LMAOOOOOO, as long as God is behind it, your trauma is justified and you should get psychiatric help, poor thing... I can only imagine how hurt you must've felt.

[@ninjatabg5588]

I mean yeah. It is pretty hard on the murderer if it's against their will. Which is what we have in the Bible. 'Not my will, Father, but your will' is the main idea

[@JacksonMitchell792]

Hallelujah!!! I’m blessed and favored with $60,000 every week! Now I can afford anything and support the work of God and the church. For Your glory, LORD! HALLELUJAH!

[@MichaelJames346]

Oh really? Tell me more! Always interested in hearing stories of successes.

[@JacksonMitchell792]

This is what Ana Graciela Blackwelder does, she has changed my life.

[@JacksonMitchell792]

After raising up to 60k trading with her, I bought a new house and car here in the US and also paid for my son’s (Oscar) surgery. Glory to God.shalom.

[@SarahElizabeth_yt]

I know Ana Graciela Blackwelder, and I have also had success...

[@SarahElizabeth_yt]

Absolutely! I have heard stories of people who started with little or no knowledge but managed to emerge victorious thanks to Ana Graciela Blackwelder.

[@iemy2949]

WLC: “I really thought hard and dispassionately about this… And I tried to think as hard as I could….” And this is the best you could come up with. Stunning.

[@Resenbrink]

lol - yep that's his best

[@eprd313]

That's why we call him low bar bill

[@jerryd3331]

Craig should be cast in a horror flick about an evil psychopathic Mr Rogers.

[@christianwalkermusic]

Consistently impressed by Alex's ability to make his guests comfortable enough to be open about their real views and thus be allowed to dig their own graves intellectually.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

His views were always known

[@johnbr59]

aoc is a petulant man child with no understanding of war. Was Dresden justified? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? The actions of the allies in general? 🤡

[@sherlockshlome473]

Alex's question wasn't thought out and he posed it in bad faith, hoping for a catch 22. Giving an answer that evades such foul play is a very dubious definition of digging ones own grave... What did you expect exactly? That God CAN'T command killings, which would immediately cancel his almightiness? You think anyone is falling for that gotcha?

[@onionbelly_]

@@sherlockshlome473 Alex's objection is in regard to the Divine Command Theory and WLC's position on our moral intuitions. Alex never said that a God who sanctions infanticide cannot be almighty, and his questions had no such "gotcha" implications. What on earth are you talking about...?

[@j8000]

@@sherlockshlome473 god being unable to do evil is in the standard apologetics script, what are you talking about? Where's the bad faith?

[@randylothrop975]

This is how religion becomes such a powerful tool to convert a good person who does not do wrong, into a person who now has no problem with it.

[@gideondavid30]

How do you know what right or wrong is?😊

[@jeffreylehman1159]

@@gideondavid30 If you need god to tell you, I don’t trust you with my money or children.

[@johannOplease]

@@jeffreylehman1159or anything else for that matter

[@warrior4christ578]

@@jeffreylehman1159 you mean how society thought it was ok to commit child sacrifice at one point, LOL. you lost this discussion.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

@@warrior4christ578 You mean how Yaweh demanded sacrifice of the firstborn? Who lost? Show me ANY society that practiced newborn sacrifice that didn’t do it on a religious basis. Not sure you know how logical arguments work.

[@ezlimata94]

The innocent children “forced” to go to heaven were stripped of their free will to either accept or reject God.

[@willpower3317]

Children are not held to the same standard regarding acceptance of Christ, so your axiom doesn’t work here.

[@LittleFishes674]

@@willpower3317 so it’s okay to terrify children? Your god is a monster.

[@azmainfaiak8111]

What??? So free will was a lie all along??​@@willpower3317

[@ejohnson7095]

@@willpower3317 Where is your evidence for this assertion?

[@angelmendez-rivera351]

@@willpower3317 It's almost like Christianity is logically inconsistent by virtue of how much special pleading it creates.

[@ploppysonofploppy6066]

I bet Adolf felt terrible too!

[@readysoldier6799]

I'm so smart I'm the first one to use WW2 as an analogy 🤡

[@ploppysonofploppy6066]

@@readysoldier6799 Holocaust started before WW2. Do keep up!

[@aaronpannell6401]

The parrells between the societies are striking. ​@@readysoldier6799

[@johnbr59]

And should the allies feel bad for defeating them you 🤡?

[@ploppysonofploppy6066]

@@readysoldier6799 So?

[@buckybarnes5241]

And people wonder why we're freaking terrified of religion.

[@danw9464]

And you think the absence of religion is any "better"?

[@gideondavid30]

You cannot even define what "good" is outside of a religious context. You just make it up as you go along.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

@@gideondavid30 If you accept God’s morality, then you are OK with WLC’s stance on genocide. And you too are a moral monster, just like your God.

[@puckerings]

"I have respect for [Craig] as a thinker and a philosopher." That's pretty damning on your own thinking, Alex. Craig has consistently demonstrated motivated reasoning and an adherence to arguments that have been demonstrated to be fallacious TO HIS FACE over and over again. He is unworthy of respect as a thinker and a philosopher.

[@karlmurray397]

This is the type of "thinking" that ISIS, Israel and all religious fanatics use to justify their slaughter.

[@iemy2949]

Alex was just being a polite Brit.

[@felixstone3.14]

But if alex, or anyone said that to him he'd have a big cry and wouldn't talk about his views

[@peterp-a-n4743]

WLC's last words incidentally neatly sum up Christianity for me: It's [logically] possible but that's not to say that anybody would ever be justified in believing it.

[@ajbowley2725]

I don't even know if it's logically possible...... It seems to me it's only possible that Christianity is true if.... 1. Yahweh is evil... or 2. That is omni characteristics are not maximal *added* But both of those viewpoints are not logically consistent with the text....... It's a paradox: whatever you give up to make it logically possible, means that the very revelation within which contains all knowledge of yahweh is untrustworthy, so no! I do know, it's not possible that Christianity is true. It's possible that there is a god, it's even possible his name is Yahweh. But it's not possible that the Bible accurately captures his character and truth.

[@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll]

I think you just put it really well. I’ve always thought the same thing: yes you can make up with world in which it all makes sense but that doesn’t mean the lord of the rings really happened. We spent a lot of time debating about whether Christianity is or can be made logically consistent and forget that logical consistency is a necessary condition for truth, not even close to sufficient.

[@marketmagus]

That’s not summing up only Christianity. That’s summing up belief in general.

[@francmittelo6731]

Trinitarian Christianity is not logically possible. A square cannot be a circle.

[@warrior4christ578]

So your a pedo defender? You support Jeffrey Epstein?

[@markbarrios4370]

When I hear things like this I can't believe that I used to be a Bible believing Christian. I'm so glad I am not anymore

[@SeekingTruth2023]

Same, absolutely...

[@sitirokimbo]

Now you are just woke

[@TorianTammas]

​@@sitirokimboWhat should that be?

[@sitirokimbo]

@@TorianTammas do you believe in 64 billion genders?

[@TorianTammas]

@@sitirokimbo Can you answer the question I asked you? If so please do so. If you can't answer my question just say so.

[@triangleofstars8485]

That smile on Craigs face while talking about that….

[@LittleFishes674]

You can’t hide evil….

[@philipmorise7970]

right! he channeled the good old Christians of the inquisition days there;so hard not to smile when such a "fun" topic comes up.

[@ekaterinastaneva9922]

So there is a chance that a lot of Bible characters were schizophrenic or just lying. How reliable.

[@SNORKYMEDIA]

or never existed???

[@user-so3im9cv5s]

@@SNORKYMEDIA can a non-existent being have a mental disease or defect? WLC, where are you when we need you?

[@JohnCamacho]

Or high on a hallucinogenic

[@spokesmanster]

you're completely missing the point and your question does not make any sense. no one argued that things like this are generally made by schizophrenics. The guy only pointed that in the woman's particular situation she was mentally ill which is a FACT. You really need to work on your logic before jumping in with ridiculous statements.

[@zeendaniels5809]

And then you must decide where to draw the line between sane and insane characters... And why there...

[@UncleKennysPlace]

The God of Abraham is a sadistic psychopath, as simple as that.

[@LittleFishes674]

A monster

[@S.D.323]

he is Homelander but worse

[@MaleINTP]

What do you do when you're describing genocide of children and the person in front of you is smiling about it...

[@fohrum4757]

Not to mention one of the most terrifying smiles ever. His smile and facial expressions scared me BEFORE I saw this clip of him.

[@user-br6ve4lz6n]

As if you've never laughed at a 911 meme or something lol

[@MaleINTP]

@@user-br6ve4lz6n Yet I don't believe that bin laden was god or that his actions were justified... As this asshole Craig does with his god...

[@MaleINTP]

@@user-br6ve4lz6n And yet I don't Revere Bin Laden nor do I think his actions were "moral" or justifiable... William thinks that god's were... How insane is that...

[@user-br6ve4lz6n]

@@MaleINTP They were putting babies in metal statues, setting the statues on fire and using drums to drown out the screams

[@timberwoof]

I'm flabbergasted and horrified that WLC would put forth the argument that the people wronged by the genocide of the Canaanites were the soldiers sent to do the deed. This puts WLC squarely in the camp of the Nazi officer who complained to Hitler about how killing all those Jewish civilians was harming his unit's morale.

[@JimCastleberry]

You are lying. Your feigned horror notwithstanding.

[@willpower3317]

You all are being ridiculous.

[@Narko_Marko]

If God is real then perhaps then he is right. The murdered men skip their life of suffering and go straight to afterlife they were gonna go to regardless, kids get a free pass to heaven but the soldiers have to live the rest of their lives with PTSD which could quite possibly lead them to sin and hell.

[@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll]

@@willpower3317I think god just wrote very different moralities on our hearts, then.

[@angelmendez-rivera351]

@@willpower3317 Projection is all you have.

[@zombiefireman]

To hear such "justification" from WLC (and with a smile on his face no less) just brings back that same sickness in my stomach that I used to get as a kid in Sunday School when I would ask about Job's children. There was never a satisfying answer even to that injustice let alone the wholesale murder of an entire population of women, children and animals.

[@blakesanders5302]

Typically don’t comment but this is one of the most horrific things I’ve ever heard.

[@memecity9849]

There's truly nothing that their God can do for believers to believe God is evil

[@johnbr59]

Did bombing dresden in ww2 make the allies evil? "oH mY gOD, God SiDeD wItH tHe iSrAeLiTeS iN aN aNciEnT wAr, hEs sO eViL" this is the level of petulant childish stupidity that aoc and his fanbase personify.

[@tomn4483]

why is any of this wrong? I'm really, truly, waiting for a logical explanation from an atheist on this. But I never get one. If it goes against your innate moral compass which you so readily appeal to, surely it is your own understanding of the events that is suspect, rather than the events themselves? Because God put your moral compass their in the first place?

[@S.D.323]

exactly its terrifying

[@jamesc3505]

@@tomn4483: I'm not sure exactly what you're saying, but I think there is an issue with claiming a perfect god gave us a moral compass that conflicts with the actions of the perfect god. OTOH, if you're just saying humanists can't prove their morality, then I think you could be right, but neither can the adherents of divine command theory. But the point of the OP, I think, is that divine command theory makes onmi-benevolence meaningless. Yahweh can command not to kill, and theists consider it good. And he can command to kill, and theists consider it good. If the definition of "good" is whatever the god wants, then literally nothing the god could do would be considered "bad". Saying the god is "good" isn't saying he refrained from genocide. It isn't saying anything at all. It's a meaningless statement. Anyway, I think it would avoid a lot of misunderstandings for Christians to state up front that when they talk about a perfectly good god, their conception of "perfectly good" includes things like committing genocide. It's something that a lot of atheists find unintuitive and difficult to grasp.

[@ninjatabg5588]

God is by definition good itself. How can good be evil? And if you mean subjectively evil, so evil by your own standards, then yeah, going to jail is bad for people who commit crimes, so they might call the law evil, but it's simple justice. Or do you have a perfect moral compass and know all things that are good and all things that are evil?

[@MDNQ-ud1ty]

Psychopaths can figure out how to justify anything and always at the cost of the real victims.

[@LittleFishes674]

Exactly, Lane Craig is delusionally justifying these horrors. The worst sort of human.

[@jesterc.6763]

​@@LittleFishes674while parading that they're in the side of nobility.

[@sherlockshlome473]

Psychopaths can fool their audience with intellectually dishonest questions intended to get some gotchas out of the interviewee. Alex, at the most convenient moments, keeps forgetting that he's talking about the same God who wiped out all of humanity with the great flood. So yes, God is obviously CAPABLE of great destruction and any other answer would be plain false.

[@TheGiantMidget]

​@@sherlockshlome473big difference here though. A flood is a natural disaster, no human being can be held responsible for that. The genocide of the cannanites is an action taken by people who believe god is talking to them

[@joelk3187]

Anyone else find it slightly sinister/odd how he's constantly smiling throughout Alex's description of the genocide? It's like he's not talking to Alex

[@iemy2949]

No, I think he was talking to god.

[@moonshoes11]

He gets that dopamine. Like a junkie.

[@cherylmcconnell4380]

Yes. It was creepy 😮. Like that preacher from poltergeist movie,who comes to the front door.

[@SeekingTruth2023]

Yes, I saw this part of interview again today... and this was what I noticed, too. I find WLCs opinion so disgusting and harmful to society. I have no words for it. I am so glad, that Alex points out these things!! Many Christians share the same opinion as WLC and don't even realize the immorality...

[@jarskiXD]

Its just being polite, should he be frowning or something?

[@cufflink44]

WLC is a moral cesspool.

[@wesleyhowie7837]

Are ya f#@king kidding me!!! This guy is insane.

[@MasterSpade]

Just like every typical god believer.

[@SeanathanCreek]

@@MasterSpade William Wilburforce says "wrong".

[@iemy2949]

this is maga-level bonkers

[@svdcleveland]

Careful of that beam in your own eye. Your party provides more than its fair share of bonkers.

[@iemy2949]

@@svdcleveland fair enough. it has its own sub cults, and I don’t like them either.

[@courageousmelon5654]

Being proud of your country and seeing its decline is not the same as religious delusion.

[@johnbr59]

Was the Dresden bombing justified? Hiroshima, Nagasaki?

[@gagankalkat8037]

Wanting to secure your border, stop illegal immigration, and expecting your elected public servants to represent you and your interests is "bonkers"? Your intellect has made you so open-minded that your brain has fallen out.

[@steven9163]

This is fu**ing insane.

[@cherylmcconnell4380]

How can he say whether some one is mental or actually hearing God.? He wasn't there . Why would God talk to people back in history but not now??

[@BrotherMaverick]

God does talk to people now. What makes you think He doesnt?

[@Glasstable2011]

@@BrotherMaverickif someone in the street tells you they’ve been speaking to God, what evidence would you need to prove that they genuinely speaking to God vs they were having some schizophrenic or other mental health episode, or they were perhaps just mistaken?

[@JohnCamacho]

@@BrotherMaverick "God does talk to people now" How do **you** know that? If someone says they have a conversation with God would you believe them? What if it's a God you don't worship? What then?

[@ThinkitThrough-kd4fn]

If God wanted ME to do something (anything) why would he tell SOMEONE ELSE to tell me? That is the single biggest flaw in biblical thinking.

[@user-so3im9cv5s]

@@BrotherMaverick does he tell people to kill innocent children? Isn't that what this video was all about?

[@Mcnuggetheadone]

This is gross. Yikes.

[@emilesprenger]

Hey Siri, what does a psychopath sound like?

[@Spektor211]

The gold metal for mental gymnastics goes to...... low bar bill

[@stevenvegh7964]

Perfect example of a belief in the afterlife causing people to have a broken moral compass.

[@theboombody]

Broken moral compasses require objective morality. Relative morality means whatever way you point the compass is pretty much correct.

[@stevenvegh7964]

@@theboombody here’s the issue with supposed objective morality. It can’t be updated. One can make the claim that slavery was objectively moral because the god of the Bible makes it clear that it is not only permissible but gives instructions for how it is to be carried out. No reasonable person nowadays would stand by slavery as being objectively moral but plenty of people did then and they were justified in it because the book makes pretty explicit references to slavery. We discover through trial and error how best to treat one another but if we decide that one book or one religion holds the final word on morality then yeah, it tends to break whatever semblance of a moral compass humanity is capable of having. It’s also worth considering that the supposed objective morality offered in any religion is pretty frequently contradictory within its holy texts. God commands the people of Israel to not murder and then also commands them to wipe out entire tribes of people including their women, children and animals. You have to twist your interpretations of this text into a pretzel to derive a consistent moral framework from this supposed objectively moral book.

[@theboombody]

@@stevenvegh7964 Yeah, but claiming morality is not objective is a MUCH stronger claim than claiming the Bible is not an accurate representation of objective morality.

[@stevenvegh7964]

@@theboombody I didn’t make such a claim and I would argue that the claim that morality is objective is the claim that demands a higher burden of proof. To me it would seem that as a social species that has to live on the same floating rock we have been discovering and learning the best methods of behavior along the way and made a shit ton of bad decisions as we tend to do when trying to figure out the best or at least a better way. The reason I say the WLC’s moral compass got broken is it’s pretty clear that he is a peaceful man that finds murder and the intentional infliction of pain and suffering on others to be wrong, but his ability to be consistent with these values has been corrupted by his need to cling to certain dogmas because of his religion.

[@TheGiantMidget]

​@@theboombodywould morality exist if there were no conscious beings to be moral?

[@OldCleisthenes]

God is such a good example on how to be tribal.

[@Mockturtlesoup1]

I love how we have come so far and have (repeatedly) asked so many questions regarding the existence of god over the millenia that are forced to come up with random scenarios like this one. Part of me feels like the amount of time, thought, energy, reasoning, etc. that has gone into these questions, topics, debates, arguments, books, videos, and so forth on this subject over the years is in itself pretty strong evidence that either a god does not exist, or that he does not want us to know he exists.

[@TianYuanEX]

Tbh just the fact Bible gets an insane amount of cosmological, historical, biological, medicinal, etc... FACTS wrong is more than enough to completely dismiss it as just a fantasy/mythology book.

[@tomn4483]

Why does that make sense?

[@tomn4483]

@@TianYuanEX Tian, it is not a scientific textbook. Don't read it as such, because that would be genuinely absurd

[@TianYuanEX]

@@tomn4483 I know. Now tell that to fundamentalists and others that deny evolution and astronomy because of it...

[@LS-kl6bj]

That Craig is referring to "Israeli soldiers" thousands of years ago, when the modern state of Israel wasn't founded until the twentieth century, boggles the mind.

[@ulfr-gunnarsson]

When he says "Israeli", just substitute it with "Israelite".

[@adrianvasian]

God, who is all-loving, all-knowing and all-powerful, thought that was the best solution ? :)) out of all the possibilities, that was the best one ? =)))

[@Kwistenbiebel100-ns5ko]

I always come back to Sam Harris' remark on God being all powerful: "If there is suffering in the world, then either God is incompetent or he is malignant. "

[@Nexus-jg7ev]

Exactly! When you add omnipotnece to the picture, all logically possible justifications evaporate.

[@malirk]

6:17 - How does Craig know Yates was hearing voices and Abraham was not hearing voices? Is it because one is in the Bible and the other is not? Does Craig exclude the possibility of God speaking to people and giving them commands that are similar to the ones he gave in the OT?

[@malirk]

6:50 - How did God do this in such a way that they knew it was God? The world may never know.

[@cherylmcconnell4380]

Maybe God tells people to do things for entertainment. God wrote all this right? He knows everything right? Well then we're all playing a part of his movie 🍿.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

not sure, you either accept OT is true and see if GOD is truly evil by virtue of self coherence or you already think it's false, God doesn't exists, and that in reality, there were no genocide that happened in reality. You choose one or the other. Stop switching questions

[@malirk]

@@toonyandfriends1915 Do you think it happened?

[@toonyandfriends1915]

@@malirk not really but it doesn't matter

[@ChrisFineganTunes]

Craig must live with an absolutely crippling level of cognitive dissonance.

[@JimCastleberry]

You are lying. You cannot demonstrate any cognitive dissonance from Craig. He is very accurate. You are a cheap shot liar.

[@ChrisFineganTunes]

@@JimCastleberry it was a cheap shot, but it was an opinion as opposed to a lie.

[@makescode]

In a way, I think WLC's thinking in these matters represents his attempt to relieve himself from cognitive dissonance. Most Christians simply do not contemplate things to this level. Because he has, he is forced to choose between giving up his cherished beliefs or biting the proverbial bullet. He's chosen the latter, forcing himself to accept some truly ugly ideas about God and reality.

[@jeffreylehman1159]

@@JimCastleberryI disagree, Craig is justifying the killing of innocents because god, by proxy , commands it. So a morally repugnant act becomes moral. This is insane. It’s ok because the children go to heaven? But they are not Christians, not baptized, so they go to hell, right?

[@rsxfreak03]

I think the trouble with Craig’s position is that although he may believe in the heavenly afterlife, the Jews at that time did not. So the soldiers that God sent to kill all of those children did not have an understanding that those children will be in heaven with God.

[@tpstrat14]

normally I am not angered by insane religious arguments. But when it's an absolutely perfect MORAL insanity, I get angry. This is of that nature. Whether he's evil or stupid, I don't care. He's obviously both.

[@benjamintrevino325]

Joan of Arc was getting actual Divine commands (so we're told) and the Church killed her anyway. How about thAt, WLC?

[@toonyandfriends1915]

The English were the ones who killed Jeanne and she was fraudulently killed as well, not sure what this proves either

[@ninjatabg5588]

Did she perform miracles to prove it? Anyone can claim it. I don't know if she did, so I'm asking fr. But even if she did and the church knew it and went and killed her, well, first it's the catholic church, so what do you expect, and second any church can do wrong, after all it's a human organization that does wrong at times, albeit being guided by the Holy Spirit.

[@benjamintrevino325]

@@ninjatabg5588 do you believe the Bible? The Catholic Church brought it to you.

[@MrBobbymacaroni]

I feel wronged by the expectation I should accept such a morally indecent Commander in Chief.

[@ninjatabg5588]

I know, right? Such a morally indecent dude this God... But wait, who defines what is and isn't moral? That's right, each and every single one of us, individually. Right...

[@MrBobbymacaroni]

@@ninjatabg5588 why we are moral agents

[@ga6589]

@@ninjatabg5588 Gods are a poor basis for objective morality, as there's no credible evidence that they are anything but human constructs. There are many different gods worshipped and appealed to as an authority and come with different theolgies, doctrines, and holy books that are also products of human ideas and opinions. Who gets to choose which is the objective moral authority? It appears that humans have been defining morality on a purely subjective level all along. I have no reason to believe that objective morality even exists and the best we can do is come to a subjective agreement on what is acceptable and what is not as they pertain to human well-being. We can still make practical use of ethical statements, with a criminal justice system supporting it. No god required. Morality long predates any religion or god-belief. Bees demonstrate an altruism that in any human narrative would be considered moral. And bees have been doing their thing for more than a hundred million years.

[@benjamintrevino325]

What a sicko.

[@LittleFishes674]

A despicable sicko.

[@SegFaultMatt]

I’m glad Alex went there because I thought exactly along these lines when Craig gave his defense of the killing of innocent children in the Old Testament. You can make an argument about the killing of the children in the Old Testament that has a semblance of internal coherence. But once you apply the implications more broadly, to everyday life it causes some REAL problems.

[@TheTruthKiwi]

If Alex can't turn WLC into a raving atheist and make him see reason then no one can.

[@johnfleming5470]

It’s the kid who murdered his parents arguing that the fact that he’s an orphan should be mitigating

[@MrSparkula]

Steven Weinberg had WLC’s number a long time ago: With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil - that takes religion.

[@TheMissiIe]

I think Hitchens parroted this quite to WLC in their debate. And as expected, WLC didn't address it

[@Remiel_Plainview]

Hey Alex, I like these discussions very much but I also miss your other short videos on certain topics.

[@oftin_wong]

His smile tells you all you need to know about his sanity If god can drown the world Why does he need others to do his divine murder ?

[@ShadowedAgony]

I cannot even believe what I am hearing. The incredible pain it must be to be both an intellectual and a christian

[@billaitken2989]

WLC's sympathising with the Israeli soldiers traumatised by their own horrific acts reminds me of Douglas Murray's reference to the Nazis killing Jews and assuaging their troubled consciences with alcohol. I also wonder if WLC would make similar excuses for God's chosen going on their current rampage in Gaza.

[@j8000]

There is a mindset that can only empathize with the powerful in any given situation. The terrified women and children being put to the sword can be brushed aside.

[@budd2nd]

@1:51 WLC says “ it’s very difficult to think” and I agree it’s obviously difficult for you specifically, to critically think about this topic. Because that would mean you possibly disagreeing with your scary god character.

[@oscargr_]

Apologetics is the sub-field of psychology that deals with extreme cognitive dissonance reduction. The conclusion comes first.

[@the.new.atheist]

Bruh William Lane's smile is scary

[@anonymoususer6037]

horrific, just horrific.

[@Steven-bs5hv]

This is yet another example of how their house of cards utterly collapses when you add even the slightest depth to your consideration of their claims. Craig is a buffoon, and I can't even say it's entirely his fault. He's just ideologically captured with a side of sunken cost fallacy. No matter how hard you try, you can't make their bullshit make sense.

[@iemy2949]

Wouldn’t it be hilarious if he woke up and pulled a reverse Ali?

[@johnbr59]

@@Steven-bs5hvwere the allies justified in bombing dresden? Hiroshima, Nagasaki?

[@Steven-bs5hv]

@@johnbr59 That's the incorrect question. To truly capture the nature of what's being discussed, the correct question is: Would the Allies be justified in bombing the given cities if they had been ordered to do so by God? And, as touched on in this video, how would they actually know it was God doing the ordering? House... of... cards, good buddy.

[@johnbr59]

@Steven-bs5hv wrong. you lot can't even comprehend basic concepts like "just war". war always entails innocent victims. but it's also something we can see is inevitable in human societies. and yes, sometimes victory of one side over another is inevitable and also yes, sometimes one side winning rather than the other is the greater good. There is no mystery or contradiction that God might give the blessing to one side over the other, as horrible as that may seem to your delicate, pampered 21st century sensibilities. baffling that you cringelords can't even grasp basic realities such as these...

[@tomn4483]

Steven, while I appreciate that the sentiment you hold is a well-held one by many atheists, I cannot logically agree with your position. Please, explain to me: why is any of this wrong? If you appeal to any sort of moral standard, isn't that just the same thing as having faith, but without any of the parts that make actually believing make sense?

[@christasimon9716]

4:30 "Now it would be easy enough to say, "I just don't think God was commanding her to." I personally have sparred with several devout Christians on the internet who have said straight up that they _would_ unalive their own family members if the voices in their heads told them to. There are a surprising number of sick and mentally unstable Christians out there.

[@largecoffeeplz]

They were unabashedly pro life and want to shut down planned parenthood right?

[@TheGiantMidget]

That big smile he had on his face when alex was talking about slaughtering children was fucking creepy 😂

[@mamooking]

Its difficult to listen to Mr. Lane without being amazed. Feel like smashing my phone in disgust and amazement.

[@JasonHenderson]

God didn't tell the Israelites to go to the Canaanites. Moses went into a tent and came out and claimed that God told him to tell them.

[@funkatron101]

Yes, it's reasonable to conclude that if Moses were real that he was more akin to David Koresh. Time should not absolve an unbelievable story when we have overwhelming bodies of evidence in which humans commit atrocities while claiming they were divinely commanded to do so.

[@larrynielsen8789]

What do you expect from a cranky 900 yr old dude working for a demanding boss with a superiority complex? Tough job 😂

[@larrynielsen8789]

Good job Alex for shining a light on the Theists' poster boy... You really have to hear him to believe he's really said these things... Amazingly sad....

[@PRED_exe]

So in the modern times, it is irrational to assume that someone's telling the truth about god giving them a command to kill, but the same claim made in a book written thousands of years ago is completely fine to take at full value as telling the real event of god giving a command.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

because we do not know how god revealed himself, if the whole account is false then the level of critique shouldn't be level about the god character

[@benwil6048]

How can you say you respect a person like Craig. HOW??!!

[@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll]

Notice how he justifies it with actual reasons when god commanded it (they go to heaven). But when it isn’t commanded he can’t appeal to actual reasons because it’s now wrong but the reasoning is the same (they still go to Heaven but it’s wrong because he didn’t command it).

[@funkatron101]

An omnipotent, omnibenevolent God would never need to make such a commandment to commit genocide. WLC is left with one of two conclusions. 1. The God he worships is not omnibenevolent or 2. This didn't happen and the story is not divinely inspired.

[@kinsumandal2467]

What concerns me is, I have seen people who thinks WLC is a wise person.

[@ThinkitThrough-kd4fn]

They are not very bright. WLC is like Ravi Zacharias was. Always speaking with the air of profundity. Dimwits think that smart people talk that way.

[@PartTimeBox]

Monstrous.

[@tmbarry]

Alex’s question is great, and it wasn’t answered. If a God told me to kill someone I’d know that being was evil. Man he danced around the room deflecting

[@tinsonkt968]

Now that was very disturbing thing to listen

[@adamturowski3765]

"If you want to get good people to do wicked things, you need religion" Christopher Hitchens

[@SNORKYMEDIA]

nope not hitch that was Steven Weinberg

[@Enau-ie5mk]

That is a false proposition. Good people do not do wicked things, for if the things they do are wicked, they are not good. And Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits.” Do not follow religion, or your own devices, follow Jesus Christ who lived a sinless life.

[@FinnA07]

@@Enau-ie5mk It'S correct tho not fully explained in one sentence adn talks about the Rethoric and narrative manipulation power of religion

[@Emanuel-hh4uu]

​@@Enau-ie5mkThat's a funny trick. If "wicked" and "good" is defined by god, then good people could do wicked things, according to our own view of it. Of course you'd say it isn't wicked because god said it ain't, but that's not a slippery slope I think you want to go down. Because that is basically saying "might makes right" if god sent me to genocide a nation and kill children it is good because "god said so".

[@lllULTIMATEMASTERlll]

@@Enau-ie5mkMaybe the wording isn’t 100% correct but I have a hard time believing that you don’t understand what the quote was trying to say. You could be a good person but be manipulated to do bad things. I just don’t believe that you don’t understand what that means and that it makes complete sense.

[@HarryNicNicholas]

what's disturbing is that someone would not only buy, but wear a sweater like that.

[@JonHarrington9075]

😂

[@iemy2949]

I wonder if it contains mixed fabrics?

[@grayhalf1854]

He had a prawn cocktail sandwich for lunch that day too, apparently

[@GLOS_LOGIKI]

Why is Alex so polite and agreeable when talking to Craig, but much different when talking to D'Souza?

[@RichardCThurston]

William Craig’s smirkis truly amazing.

[@mikejurney9102]

So divine commands can negate moral imperatives? Sounds like a contradiction of terms.

[@eljay5746]

How can the slaughterers in the bible know their commands came from their God yet if someone today heard a simialr voice they would be deemed insane. How can you prove the difference.

[@ThinkitThrough-kd4fn]

You can't. And God would know that. So he would NEVER tell one person to give orders to another person about ANYTHING.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

because Moses split the seas because of God so i'd trust this guy

[@iemy2949]

You see, Christians know the OT is just stories; they wouldn’t actually wanna live like that.

[@eljay5746]

@@ThinkitThrough-kd4fn Your first two words were the correct answer the rest has been disproven throughout the Bible of how God commanded humans to do his bidding as he could not for some reason do it himself.

[@FernandoGarcia-jj8ls]

If you simply didn’t believe the Bible was the inerrant word of god, then this would be easily solvable. The knot tying degree into which Billy goes into here is astounding

[@SubwayJack919]

He actually argued the people committing the mass murder suffered and not the ones being murdered? He truly is a sick evil person.

[@thetruest7497]

WLC is repugnant. So, if someone is "saved" then I can do no wrong to them sense they'll go to heaven 🤔 And this is top shelf apologetics. Its disgusting.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

That's not what he said

[@thetruest7497]

@toonyandfriends1915 that's exactly what he said.

[@toonyandfriends1915]

@@thetruest7497 no because you are not justified into comiting the action.

[@JD-wu5pf]

​@@toonyandfriends1915 Correct. You're only justified in committing the action if you have some way of knowing for certain that the command to murder is coming from god. The certainty that WLC says is impossible. So, therefore, you are never justified in committing any action that you think came from god.

[@thetruest7497]

@toonyandfriends1915 nope you are lost. WLC justified the murder by saying the kids would go to heaven and therefore haven't been wronged. Let me repeat it since you're slow. He is saying the kids were not wronged because they would go to heaven. Take that to it's logical conclusion, if someone is "saved" they cannot be wronged because they would go to heaven. Yes, it's a low IQ argument. Sadly this is the best Christianity has to offer.

[@harlycorner]

The Low Bar Bill's psychotic smirk during your intro was disgusting. What the hell are you smiling at during such a serious conversation, Bill?

[@BigIdeaSeeker]

This! And Mike Winger’s awkward laugh while he is discussing Hell. I find it odd that Christians often complain about Bart Ehrman’s odd chuckles, but it’s clear he is actually dismissively laughing at things that are funny and he’s genuinely amused with life. But these guys who chuckle over genocide and Hell freak me out.

[@doctorlove3119]

Or was he squirming?

[@JimCastleberry]

You are lying to claim low bar Bill. You cannot justify that lie. Liars suck

[@JimBobJoeB0b]

@@JimCastleberrylying is intentionally contradicting the truth. If what the above commenter is saying is false, they certainly don’t know it, therefore it is not lying.

[@harlycorner]

Religion poisons everything, especially morality.

[@JerryTheHeretic]

dude the mental gymnastics is unfucking real.

[@brianblakley2535]

This is like saying the bank robber is the real victim for shooting people in a bank robbery

[@bobmudge4836]

Just when I thought my opinion of Craig couldn’t sink lower ….

[@r.i.p.volodya]

Do you think that the killed men, women and children found the experience to be painless?! Is murder wrong or not?!

[@trialen]

"Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind."

[@viktorsula-vi3ft]

Thanks, for showing us that one can be a smart person and an idiot simultaneously.

[@LittleFishes674]

Not sure where the smart part is.

[@WhoTheLoL]

Craig is correct. If god exists *and* if god commands a killing of an innocent, then the person killed is not wronged but blessed with an early ticket to the best place one can be. There is just a handful of conditions in there. 1. God has to exist. 2. God has to have issued the command. The question boils down to assessing whether both conditions are fulfilled. Let's, for the sake of argument, grant 1., that god exists. I'm feeling charitable today. How do you tell if the command to kill, which goes against the only commandment most christians even remember, comes from god? Is it because you feel it? Mental illnesses demonstrably exist, unlike god. I sure fkin hope we would all agree that if one sees a person heading to a school with a machinegun because they think they've been commanded by god to dance to "pumped up kicks", the right course of action is to call the cops, not pray that the machinegun is used to deliver god's justice. Ok, so if we all agree people with homicidal thoughts need help, why would you think that YOUR homicidal thoughts are any more legitimate than theirs? Why would god make it so hard to tell who's working for him and who is not? Or is it because you are told by someone that this is what god wants? In that case, how do you tell who is receiving messages from god? Just how much evidence does one need to be justified in the belief that some other dude's demand to go shoot up a school is coming from god? Plenty of madmen you would agree are not talking to god demand such actions, why would you be certain this one is not mad? Even if god's existence is granted, I see no reason to believe such a claim under any reasonable circumstances. So, no - one is never justified in committing the horrific things discussed here, under any circumstances. If it is your "heart" that tells you to do this - you should report to a mental institution, because it's more likely you're just crazy. If the command comes from another, you have no way of establishing that it's coming from god, so you should not go against god's commandments just because someone tells you he knows better than god. tl;dr - religion is a horrible concept that turns humans into monsters like Craig.

[@ryananon779]

You're meant to put the tl;dr at the top, fuckstick. Otherwise it's just a summary.

[@davidlewis3773]

The only serious issue is meta-ethical issue of the possibility that God commands a morally repugnat act. If you give that up to Craig you have lost all hope. The epistemic objection is ludicrously easy to overcome. (1) God exists (2) God issues a morally justified command to do slaughter innocents (3) No one could ever be justified in believing (2). The propositions aren't logically inconsistent. Consider (2)(a) God is morally justified in issuing such a command to a person even if they can never be justified in believing it. The isrealites would be epistemically unjustified but morally justified by dint of the facticity of the command (it was objectively issued by the divine skydaddy). It would be like a mathematician working out the truth of some unsolved conjecture through a method of randomly generating strings of equations and believing the out put. Person is totally unjustified (doesn't have knowledge) but the statement is nonetheless a mathematical truth.

[@WhoTheLoL]

@@davidlewis3773 I disagree. You say that the epistemic objection is easy to overcome, but you failed to even address it. You argue that if I allow gods issuing repugnant commands as a possibility, it's not logically inconsistent for god to issue a morally repugnant command AND for people to not have a justification to believe it. I don't contest that. What I am pointing out is that the mere logical possibility of a scenario does not mean it's true, and we have no way of telling if it's true (to ANY reasonable degree) until we epistemically analyze the claim, i.e. look at the evidence. Since there is no reasonable evidence for any of this garbage, no sensible person should commit such acts using god's commands as justification. Touching on the analogy you gave - yes, it's possible for a mathematician to produce a solution to a problem by randomly writing mathematical notation, but no mathematician (let alone any non-mathematician) would be justified in believing that this indeed is the solution until it is verified, i.e. until there's evidence in support of the claim that it is correct.

[@davidlewis3773]

@@WhoTheLoL I don't see any interesting implications that follow from the epistemic problem. The Israelites were epistemically unjustified. No one should believe God has told them to act in a way contrary to basic morality. Can't religious folk happily accept this? That doesn't seem to be an indispensable element of basic christian belief. Analogous to the maths problem. The theorem's truth rests on some objective fact about maths and not facts about our knowledge (unless one is a constructivist).

[@WhoTheLoL]

@@davidlewis3773 Your interest in objective truths is meaningless if you can't tell what the objective truth *is*. The only way available to humans of getting to what is true is through epistemic evaluation. Any interest in objective truths that ignores the only way to understand what they are is jumping the gun, if not an outright waste of time. Given that we have no good reason to believe 1. that such a thing as god even exists 2. what the nature of that thing is 3. whether we're capable of making judgments on that thing … then talking about "objective truths" pertaining to specifics of this thing's behavioral logic is a few levels of delusion too deep for me to take seriously. And the fact that christians are perfectly OK with accepting genocide as potentially OK if the god they believe in for NO GOOD REASON commanded it is a MAJOR PROBLEM for humanity. I for one find it disgusting, petrifying and shocking all at once to think that there are specimens of my species, allegedly intelligent, with their braincells broken so fucking bad that they're seriously forming such atrocious thoughts. This is not at all uninteresting.

[@UatuEd]

This is a clear demonstration of how people use bias to decide, and intelligence to rationalize it later - essentially intelligence is turned off for the first step. (Obviously, ideally, we should all use intelligence to decide things, but almost nobody can do that.)

[@HarryNicNicholas]

father ted: that would be an ecumenical question.

[@angreehulk]

While I have always disagreed with WLC, I used to genuinely respect him and hold him up as a "good" apologist. However, over the last couple of years, I have basically lost all respect for him. This video is just another example of why nobody should be taking this man seriously. I'm actually embarrassed that I used to hold him in high regard.

[@siemdecleyn3198]

Dangerous religious extremist 😵

[@SeekingTruth2023]

Absolutely! And many of my former Christian friends share his opinion. I consider this harmful to society.

[@ruleaus7664]

Mind your own business. WLC hasn't harmed anyone.

[@grayhalf1854]

Believe me he's harming his own side with opinions such as these.

[@ruleaus7664]

@@grayhalf1854 He's not responsible for yours or anyone else's ignorance or erroneous thinking.

[@TheCaptain610]

This is a really, to be polite, weird take from Craig. (that the people who really suffered were the soldiers) even if you accept God was justified in giving these orders. I say that as a practicing Catholic.

[@malirk]

As a Catholic, what are your thoughts on God commanding the soldiers to end babies? Do you find that to be moral or immoral?

[@BridgeTROLL777]

@@malirk if god exists and is omnipotent master of universe, yes then "good" is whatever good wills. This is the only claim to "objective morality". Murdering babies in front of mother, torturing babies, sacrificing babies, based on gods whims is "good" by virtue god being god. but IRL god most likely doesnt exist therefore universe is nihilistic in nature.. We call things we like "moral" and this "morality" is merely rooted in our selfish self interest, subjective whims, nothing more.

[@iemy2949]

I can imagine Craig saying “the real victims were the slave holders”

[@TheCaptain610]

@@malirk More-or-less what Richard Dawkins said the respectable theologian's POV would be.

[@kasperg5634]

As Christopher said, it takes religion to make good people do (or be apologists for) bad things

[@flashparker31]

The dude straight up sounds like Thanos. He talks about genocide and no one being harmed without being an eyelash

[@jesterc.6763]

God has not wronged anyone bcuz he's not real.

[@malirk]

Couldn't we just argue a theodicy that suffering by doing horrible acts for God is the greatest of all goods? Think about it, if you are willing to do great evil for God and suffer because of it, you are showing that God can take the greatest of evils and turn it in to goodness. Your suffering actually proves God is good!

[@kurtfrederiksen5538]

I mean, perhaps if your God did not have the omni-properties. If God is all knowing, he would know the ramifications of his actions and what he would need to do to avoid them. If God is all powerful he would be able to effect the same good without the evil or acts. If God is all loving he would not force suffering on others in order to prove his goodness. So yea, it is an argument, just not for the Christian God.

[@cherylmcconnell4380]

Trauma Bond comes to mind 😔

[@funkatron101]

Many Christians believe suffering is good. This is why they have these persecution complexes.

[@danlopez.3592]

Without religion , I’m sure that Craig would be able to call out wrong when he sees it.

[@reveivl]

These people can justify anything in the name of their imaginary friend. Disgusting.

[@kendrickjahn1261]

William Lane Craig is such a hack.

[@LittleFishes674]

he's a dispicable human being with those views.

[@JimCastleberry]

Really? Where is your evidence? Liar.

[@kendrickjahn1261]

@@JimCastleberry Yeah, let's debate on social media! Such a useful channel for that. 🤣

[@LittleFishes674]

@@JimCastleberry the evidence is there in everything William Lane Craig says. He has no moral compass and makes up the cruelest bullshit to justify his sick beliefs.

[@iemy2949]

@@JimCastleberry He rationalized genocide. And I know that’s wrong because god wrote it on my heart.

[@Merrick]

I disagree with Alex I don't respect this guy

[@JimCastleberry]

Who cares who you don't respect? You have no basis to disrespect Dr Craig,

[@JimBobJoeB0b]

⁠@@JimCastleberrywho cares about what you have to say? Two can play at that game, Jim.

[@user-so3im9cv5s]

@@JimCastleberry so it's right for me to respect a guy who thinks killing children is a good thing? I think not.

[@iemy2949]

@@JimCastleberry except for his genocide apologetics

[@ahmadshawky2212]

@@JimCastleberry any human being with basic level of morality will disrespect WLC and disrespect you as well. What a shame

[@darrenwalters9886]

I think Mr. Craig has stepped into some deep doo doo here.

[@badmiddens]

well, you know, when imaginary people whisper in your ears, they might just tell you to do anything.

[@TaylorL4664]

William. This point of view is MORBID. Through your beliefs, and the need to defend the bible, you are acting in a way that is morally disgusting. Please change your ways.

[@BridgeTROLL777]

Whose morality? Is it just your subjective whim? Because absent of god there is no objective morality just nihilistic subjective opinions, that amount to nothing ultimately. Some people like to commit genocide for selfish gain others dont like that when they have no stake in the matter as bystanders because it feels morbid, both are morally equal in amoral universe. But I agree religion has no place in society outside personal meditations because its not logically consistent and does not promote human wellbeing, which is what I through "egoism" and selfish desire want.

[@iemy2949]

@@BridgeTROLL777 Read some philosophy aside from Nietzsche, troll. Maybe Rawls’ “A Theory of Justice.” Yahweh’s morality is not good and is not objective. You do not have to discard commonsense just because you can’t identify absolutes.

[@TianYuanEX]

@@BridgeTROLL777 Bruh, what. Your last sentence is completely disconnected (and implicitly contradictory) to the rest of your comment.

[@BridgeTROLL777]

@@iemy2949 Im not a troll, that is just you dismissing me so you could cope with differing ideas from your own. Not really appropriate for metaphysical discussion..... Second, I have looked into Rawls and not just Nietzsche, but there is a reason why Nietzsche is the most influential modern philosopher. His claims about metaphysical nature of morality are iron clad absent of "magic". They are not "extreme" like you described but realistic. I have looked into Rawls and his Kantian ideas how society should be engineered, are superb. we should act as if we were behind veil of ignorance", which summarizes his work quite well. For instance If you dont know whether you grow wealthy or in a poor rough environment you would want social safety net, social programs, schools, labor laws, justice system etc.. to be robust and fair (veil of ignorance forces us to look things through egoism "what if I grow up poor?" and leads to Kantian principle.... Surprise, for every organism decision making always goes back to egoism ultimately) However, Rawls pragmatic ethics don't answer to metaphysical ontological questions at all, thus irrelevant to the question of objective morality, good, evil. I support Rawl´s Ideas out of my selfish self interest because it creates stable societies, i live in a society and want stable world, i get enjoyment for having pro social empathic ideas about others.. But at the same time I think "magic" doesn exist thus objective morality doesn't exist. Universe is indifferent nihilistic place, there is no good or evil just subjective opinions rooted in self interest, even Rawls ideas... - Metaphysical nature of morality (nihilism) - Everyday decision making for any organism self interest. (Egoism) and through empathy and rational thought one might look things in broader scope and egoism might lead to Rawls ideas, which is lets take care of everyone.

[@BridgeTROLL777]

@@TianYuanEX Not really maybe I explained it poorly. Metaphysical nature of morality is completely disconnected from my actions. It is something regardless of what I think or do (objectivity) And absent of "magic" nature of morality just happens to be nihilistic. It doesnt exist, Universe is indifferent, there is no good or evil, or moral or immoral actions objectively. Ultimately all organisms act following ethics of egoism. They make decisions and value judgements based on how this serves my interests. They might call things good/bad, "moral" or "immoral" based on their self interest. But despite this practical rule of thumb everyday ethics, the metaphysical morality remains Nihilistic. Murder spree of great ape homo sapiens is objectively as moral as giving money to butcherer that kills other mammals for your oral pleasure. People just might have differing subjective opinions about them rooted ultimately in their selfish self interests.

[@tinalanger7589]

I immediately imagined a 5 year old child witnessing the slaughtee of her entire family--then being killed. She'll now have an eternity of reliving this trauma. But she wasn't harmed? I have suffered some harm just contemplating that poor child.

[@bisbeekid]

Alex does a commendable job restraining himself from WLC's huge dump bovine excretion.

[@BrianForTheWin]

My last stop on the way out of trad Catholicism was a conversation with a priest whose honesty about these things was refreshingly helpful. He just told me with no hesitation, “unless you start with the a priori conviction that God is always good-and determine to hold on to that conviction no matter how bad something looks-there’s just no way to read the Bible and not conclude that God is evil at least some of the time.” That was it for me. Any religion that tells me to look monstrous evil in the face and call it good can f@ck right off.