Could Two Alien Races Evolve on the Same World?

[@JAGtheTrekkieGEMINI1701]

Interesting Topic but one Tiny correction. The vulcans of Star Trek did! evolve as a highly emotional species! They only changed that shortly after they waged nuclear wars on their Homeplanet thus facing total Annihilation If nothing Changes.

[@atk05003]

Yup. People frequently forget that the Vulcans are highly emotional by nature and are only so controlled and logical because of a rigid cultural emphasis on controlling those emotions.

[@topogigio7031]

@@atk05003 which is why high-on-spores Spock is more painful to see than funny. He's hurting from experiencing emotions he's never been trained to handle but simply ignore, so when ignoring is not an option things get rough

[@KRYMauL]

People also forget that the Vulcans and Romulans are the same species that split due to this philosophy.

[@drakebell6784]

@@KRYMauL People also forget they are fake

[@KRYMauL]

@@drakebell6784 There is no evidence to definitely say there is no Elves out there is the great beyond.

[@Involution88]

As long as they occupy niches which don't overlap too much. According to the competitive exclusion principle, no two species can occupy the same niche in the same environment for a long time.

[@TheHighJester9991]

@vkrm and everyone else

[@jamespalmer9033]

Isn't the problem that as a species gets more intelligent (or at least technological), the niches it can occupy necessarily get wider and more diverse, meaning increasing intelligence is likely to bring them into conflict sooner or later anyway? We evolved on the savannahs of Africa, but still managed to brave near-Arctic conditions with little more than stone-age technology and furs...

[@TheHighJester9991]

@@jamespalmer9033 thats environmental change not a change in ecological niche we changed niches when we switched from omnivores scavengers to omnivores pursuit hunters. Also I'm happy to answer anywhere I was confusing

[@ianharrison5758]

@@jamespalmer9033 or they could evolve to be separate, but symbiotic races. The two don’t compete and actually are essential to their survival, like one of them breaths the chemical the other inhales, or helps drive, assist the biological process of the other. Intelligence and sentience are broad concepts, and the forms the life could take and still be equally self aware as we are in their own way are very very diverse. That means 2 equally sentient species could even evolve as the capacity for direct communication with the other, even if they do not use the same method to communicate with other members of its race. Imagine 2 species evolve with a similar form of symbiotic relationship to an anemone and a clown fish. One serving as a home and protection, the other pest control, cleaning, and any number of other roles. Imagine first contact with a twin race planet where one race is very similar to humans, like Star Wars level, and the other the actual home of the first, the intelligence of which manifesting in weird ways like the house changing its structure to indicate a sentence blick translated directly into their form of sign language. They could then talk to the separate species back with your own equivalent approximation of theirs. Cool concept, terrifying to think about it

[@royce_beyer]

@@ianharrison5758That might be where we're heading with our development into smart-house tech.

[@TechnoLawyer]

On the topic of intelligence, I'd just add the corvid (not to be confused with covid) family has been shown to be about on par with the best of the chimp branch. They make and use tools, then store those tools for later use, etc. Their brains look very different than ours, and they are an interesting example of a divergent branch of life with a very different brain structure ending up with top tier non-human intelligence.

[@exhaustguy]

Definitely a candidate species, and you have to wonder about the dinosaurs that didn't abandon their more flexible front digits to evolve into birds (example being Coelurus of which avians are a cousin).

[@johannageisel5390]

@@exhaustguy Lol, this is exactly the premise in some little writing project that I have in my drawer. An avian species that just happened to not fuse all of its digits into their wing bones but kept a thumb and a finger free. They also have an extremely well developed voice box and hearing. Humans joke that these creatures have a synthesizer in their throat, because they can mimic so many sounds. They have brought forth the most renowned linguists of the galaxy and play a key role in first contact situations. There is also a scientific cooperation going on that will hopefully help humankind to finally decipher dolphin and whale languages.

[@gl2814]

What about: two alien races in two habitable planets in the same solar system?

[@jerrysstories711]

A very cool sci-fi scenario, but there's still the problem of the improbability of their being in synch. Chances are, one would be sentient long before the other. So the first would have to declare the second's planet a nature preserve and leave their evolution alone for eons.

[@gl2814]

@@jerrysstories711 yess. You have a point

[@lastword8783]

@@jerrysstories711 what if both planets harbored life and were visited by a monolith like drone from the movie 2001 and uplifted 1 species on each planet and then left them alone.

[@jerrysstories711]

@@lastword8783 Sure, that could happen. But two species just *evolving* in such synch is so extremely unlikely that if you saw such a situation, intelligent intervention would be the rational conclusion.

[@barkasz6066]

I often wonder how things would have turned out if conditions on both Mars and Venus were closer to Earth. Even if they never developed sentient life the fact that they could be inhabited by humans would have sped up our space program a thousand fold. Or maybe we would have veen wiped out by a Venusian virus by now.

[@AethyrPrime]

Fun fact: in the Star Trek lore there are complete cetacean departments of the Federation and even on ships. Check it out if you don’t believe me. Dolphins while never having an on screen presence do exist within the official lore.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

I am amused at the fact that there are ships entirely crewed by vulcans while vulcans also serve in mixed crews. It is just like the most insufferable vulcans are put on their own ships...

[@TCBYEAHCUZ]

Well in the movies there was a scene where spock speaks to one of the whales and the whale was just as intelligent as human but could only talk through psychic link that vulcans have.

[@artemis_smith]

There's also the aquatic Xindi from Enterprise. But a lot of people don't like Enterprise so idk

[@piotrd.4850]

SeaQuest? :D Man I also was heartbroken learning that Darwin was a prop.

[@fabianherrmann6398]

SotS has the Liir, psionically gifted aquatic mammals.

[@maiqtheliar789]

Honestly the whole concept of multiple intelligent species evolving on the same world is a concept that I wish was seen more often in science fiction. The Xindi from Star Trek Enterprise are one of my favorite races in all science fiction just because all of them are similar and yet all so different at the same time both in the physical and mentality sense. The lore is pretty good with them as well.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

before we do that, we need to first make it so that we have different species on different planets. Right now, aliens (esp. in star trek) are basically always humans, both in their design, their psychology and abilities, their society and their morality

[@maiqtheliar789]

Yep but that problem isn't just exclusive to Star trek either. The Xindi did have some of those issues but at the same time they also did make some of them different than humans especially the Aquatic Xindi whose ships were basically aquariums and spoke like a whale or dolphin on Earth would. While the insectoid Xindi spoke a different language to all the other species and sort of seemed like a hive mind in a lot of ways. Avian Xindi were extinct so we can only guess about what set them apart. Star trek tends to go cheap with alien species but in the case of the Xindi they did really well. Make up and special effects also tends to limit how different aliens can be in a film and tv setting as well because they want to keep costs down. Enterprise did a lot of things wrong as a series but the Xindi arc wasn't one of them. They did good with that arc.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

@@maiqtheliar789 Oh yeah, I liked the Xindi and ST:E a lot :) Especially the insectoids are a archetype that should be explored in fiction more. It is more of a general complaint, ST:E was good in that department. Star Trek also is not hard scifi, but rather social commentary. The ferengi, the romulans, ... are ridiculous as races in themselves. But of course, they are meant to push a certain narrative/ moral message, not be realistic depictions of aliens

[@michaelpettersson4919]

The Xindi are, well to many to evolve naturally. It is likely that one of the Xindi species or some aliens uplifted them with genetic engineering.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

@@aldoushuxley5953 The TV medium cause that. You get rubber forhead "aliens" because they are easy and cheap to make and too confusing cultures would be a hard sell to the causual viewer. Having said that they do occationaly come up with something very non human, in apperance or culture.

[@trevorhmason]

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri had a planet spanning fungal hivemind, another interesting possibility considering our own planets interconnectivity via mycelium networks

[@fabianherrmann6398]

Always loved that fungal planet mind approach to the gaia concept.

[@mokobaby6181]

Is that where star trek discovery got that idea?

[@elliottcastillo3717]

And it was unkillable! I would build planet busters to wipe them out but then more would come and the poles would melt lol

[@trevorhmason]

@@elliottcastillo3717 Merging with it is the only acceptable option, we are Gaia's Children

[@michaeljf6472]

Incognito sapient Dolphins and Octopuses: "Should we let them know?"

[@adaeptzulander2928]

Dolphins: Nope. Oh, BTW, so long and thanks for all the fish!

[@planetdisco4821]

You beat me to it mate…

[@joshuarichardson6529]

You forgot the Mice. Earth actually has three sapient species.

[@mostm8589]

No love for the parrots and crows?

[@hemidas]

So long and thanks for all the fish.

[@AlanKey86]

In a recent episode on alien language, IA discussed how it's possible (but not plausible) that an alien race would develop different words for entities that are very similar i.e. if you showed the alien 2 elephants, it _could_ fail to recognize their similarities and create a new word for each... IA: Could two alien races evolve on te same world? Aliens with ridiculous language: Absolutely. My home planet has approximately 10 billion different races on it! IA: You mean species right? Aliens: No, 10 billion different races within the same species... casual racism is a significant problem on my homeworld :(

[@Meme-lo7ru]

WOW..I SEE YOU LEARN FROM GAMES. YOU SOUND LIKE YOU FROM EARTH NOT ANOTHER PLANET! UNLESS YOU ARE OF THE ENEMY? WHAT PLANET? 🥱 PLANET VIDEO GAMES....LOL 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🙄😌🥒😌😌😌

[@thalljoben3551]

You got the Duloks and the Ewoks on Endor, which is also home to the semi sentient (caveman/Neanderthal) Gorax, Jawas and Tusken Raiders, etc, come to think of it, Star Wars has a lot multi-native planets.

[@KRYMauL]

In Legends the Kumumgah of Tatooine split into two races the Tusken Raiders and the Jawas during the time of the Infinite Empire. The Duloks and Ewoks are also related in the same way Humans and Neanderthals are related. starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Tatooine/Legends starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Endor/Legends

[@TheRealMirCat]

@@KRYMauL Then there was the Quarren and Mon Calamari. Those were not a split, but two totally separate.

[@KRYMauL]

@@TheRealMirCat Yep those are actually two different species like Octopus and Dolphins that somehow figured out fire.

[@TheRealMirCat]

@@KRYMauL Star Wars doesn't have a Prime Directive when it comes to less developed worlds.

[@NeilCWCampbell]

Aren't jawas everywhere like vermin.. I thought only the sand people were native to taatoine? Then the wonderful republic seized the planet for humanity

[@exhaustguy]

I recommend David Brin's Uplift books. In his universe virtually all intelligent races are a product of a prior uplift by another intelligent race. In it we have uplifted different apes, dogs, and dolphins (I think - I ready them nearly 30 years ago).

[@werewolf4358]

Who's the oldest race? Or does it not say?

[@exhaustguy]

@@werewolf4358 I can't remember anymore.

[@professorracc.9780]

I like when he says 'critters' I like that word

[@virutech32]

same

[@godofthunder6259]

Cwittas🖤

[@mossy_6475]

Profile pic and username checks out

[@TheWizardGamez]

Could multiple species live on the same planet. Maybe, but it would need a new world style gap to stop the stronger one from immediately wrecking the weaker one

[@michaelpettersson4919]

If they evolve on the same world yes. If one species uplift another then we get another situation. Better not treat the uplifts as slaves thou since that is how Planet of the Apes started.

[@johannageisel5390]

Two supercontinents, maybe?

[@ianharrison5758]

Or just have them work together, perhaps one serves a purpose in the functioning of the planets biosphere that the other wouldn’t be able to exterminate without killing itself. At least not until both are intelligent to the point of being able to communicate. Imagine if we found out that the phytoplankton on earth were intelligent, and served their purpose while also being so. I’m not talking about sentient moss, a better way to think about it is that one exhales the element the other inhales, requiring them at least tolerate eachother, and likely encouraging symbiosis since it’s way Easier to just team up and be genetically different but culturally the same than it is to figure out how ti make machines able to do the other half of your breathing, and have the infrastructure for it set up without the other one knowing.

[@thorhaveron]

I've been waiting for this video. I like the concept of syncretic evolution, with wars and diplomacy between two intelligences on the same world. Reminds me of in Xenocide by OSC (spoilers) how the piggies, buggers, and humans lived in peaceful rivalry

[@garret1930]

After humanity tried to genocide both of them (and could've succeeded too if specific individuals were not in the picture. Spoilers: Also there's the AI that humanity has which I would count as distinct from humanity.

[@nowhereman6019]

The example of humans and dolphins co-evolving with dolphins just along for the ride is an incredibly cute idea to me.

[@Grizabeebles]

We did it with dogs.

[@pll3827]

I like how you mention spiders. I really liked the book Children of Time, where I ended up rooting for the uplifted spiders defending their world. The spiders shared their world with other intelligent species, include uplifted mantis shrimp. The two species evolve together, and don't wipe the other out simply because they inhabit different environments.

[@Mine0Taur]

I'm developing this comic that takes place in a Venus-like planet where there's a single, Europe-sized, 40 km high plateau that has Earth-like temperatures and atmospheric pressure. The story revolves around Humanity, which managed to evolve in the "Earth plateau", coming into contact with the basic yet deadly lifeforms which evolved in the rest of their hellish planet. Kinda like two alien races. I gotta make it one day.

[@springbloom5940]

How about today?

[@garymiskwaabineshii7938]

That sounds awesome! I'd buy that comic...for sure.

[@aldoushuxley5953]

You could do a very similar thing for mars. Mars is far less "ball like" than earth, the northern hemisphere is less dense and basically dented (probably due to the high volcanic activity there). So the ocean that likely was there was only on one atmosphere. You basically have one life friendly environment and than 2/3 of deadly desert to explore, with all sorts of weird life forms. What if your species (living in the ocean) started to terraform the planet, by building canals (see what I did there ;) ), only to come in contact with all the weird monsters living in the riverlands and desert

[@randomguy4167]

You should make it a bit larger than Europe as Europe is quite small as far as continents go. Maybe Eurasia sized?

[@raidermaxx2324]

@@randomguy4167 screw that go big, go Pangea!

[@acemax1124]

Two alien races could evolve on the same planet as long as they're not hostile to each other and maybe in some ways could form maybe even a symbiotic relationship depending on the species.

[@CMCSS-to3to]

Or eternal war

[@efxnews4776]

He used the exemple of humans and dolphins... Well, it happens that in the far south of Brazil theres a small city called Laguna, where dolphins and humans work toghter in fishing. Search about, it isn't like a completly different species, that isn't a domesticated couldn't work with us...

[@BuckROCKGROIN]

Our fear of AI begs to differ. Once one species begins to outpace the other species to the point that the other species is nothing but dead weight and a waste of resources to the more competent species, Thucydides Trap seems inevitable, if not just outright genocide. We can't tolerate eachother most of the time, so we're not gonna have any sympathy for smart roaches no matter how clever they are. There's evidence of this in evolutionary biology, how we excercise our altruism is overwelmingly contingent upon coefficient of relatedness.

[@cgsec2275]

I disagree. Almost every type of organism on Earth is hostile to some others because it eats them. They all evolve over billions of years together before the first one develops abstract intelligence. And even then, it is not a given that they would engineer the biology of their planet so no others could.

[@acemax1124]

I understand his examples. Earth has creatures with symbiotic relationships which could be possible on other planets. If the life forms evolve that could also increase there symbiotic relationship. So far we only have advance relationships like that in sci-fi but it's very possible.

[@RimonKade]

Near the end of the video Isaac mentions "a tiger dragging in antelope to the clever monkeys in exchange for them using their nimble fingers for crafting this or that useful thing." This is 𝑇ℎ𝑒 𝑁𝑎𝑚𝑒𝑑 series by Clare Bell, where prehistoric big cats keep herds of small herbivores. The cats also take monkeys as pets/partners, protecting them in exchange for the monkeys tying ropes and doing other things the cats can't easily do.

[@MarkusAldawn]

For the 'Vampire case,' of divergence to predation, I recommend Blindsight, and specifically the lecture recordings set in that universe. Very good fiction

[@kffire12]

He has recommended blindsight in his rare intelligence video. He is likely making a reference

[@Remington53]

This could be a possibility on a tidally locked planet, where one inhabits the "day" area and the other, the "night" area.

[@WASDLeftClick]

That’s more or less the idea I went with in a D&D setting I’ve been building on and off the last couple years. A tidally-locked planet with your typical D&D races living on the day side(mostly near the boundary because of the temperate climate) and the night side primarily being icy wasteland sparsely populated by certain monsters and the occasional settlement of undead ruled over by vampire nobles. The majority of the day side is dominated by a vast desert, again sparsely populated by monsters adapted to that climate and a few cities of desert elves who can stand the heat and extreme brightness.

[@icecold9511]

Tidally locked is usually to close to a star like mercury, and it would create issues of extreme weather. Also, without photosynthesis on the dark side, sources of energy can be a huge problem.

[@ivobrick7401]

What about binary system consist of gas giant and Y type star, their moon? Or binary pair of moons. All of this as a part of a system of main sequence star. You ll never know what's possible out there, until you check all systems. And to do that.. you have no chance to do that.

[@giuseppedarancio6184]

@@ivobrick7401 not us , but our children’s children’s children maybe

[@rickloftus9330]

The light side would be intolerably hot; the dark side intolerably cold. Even with a thick atmosphere and/or ocean it would likely be too extreme. You might find extremophiles, but not multicellular animals, which require more clement conditions. It’s the zone between the extremes that may be moderate and stable enough to support multicellular life-in which case you’d have to come up with a scenario favoring 2 different intelligent species.

[@thalljoben3551]

In Star Wars we have the Mon Calamari, and the Quarren evolving on the same planet, and waging a Neverending war for control of it.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

More like a on and off war.

[@Lusa_Iceheart]

A never-ending grudge on the Mon Calmari by the Quarren, the Mon Cal didn't really hold as much of a grudge tho. The wars were mostly just off and on at various points and often linked to Galactic-level politics. Whoever the Mon Cal made nice with, the Quarren just had to side with their enemies out of spite for the Mon Cal.

[@virgoshorizon2739]

Dont they look similar enough that they could share a common ancestor though? It's kind of hard to tell though, because most Star Wars creatures, have humanoid body plans.

[@artemis_smith]

@@virgoshorizon2739 most Star Wars species are depicted by people in rubber costumes; as far as I'm concerned, the Quarren and Mon Calamari don't really look all that similar once you get passed that

[@Liphted]

Hey basement dwellers, star wars is fiction.

[@Marcus_Sherman]

“Fantasy Genres” right...that’s what we are calling your search history

[@gamingchamp6728]

Lmao might as well call it that

[@theOrionsarms]

Yeah the progenitor hypothesis, a entire galaxy populated by different species diverget from a common ascentors, that was capable of interstellar colonization, so many times used in science-fiction that nobody could ever think such thing is real, but maybe it is (I mean today not in the distance future).

[@wilberator9608]

I'd love to see an analysis of the reality-inspired megastructures and technology that has featured in popular science fiction. For example: The Expanse, Interstellar, Star Trek, Elite Dangerous, The Martian. I know you often mention relevant fictional examples of the concepts being exaplined, but an episode looking at them in detail could be a lot of fun. The recently released ARK: Genesis Part 2 is set on a huge colony ship with multiple habitat rings. It seems like one of the best examples of rotating space habitats in recent sci fi.

[@AEHTSCH]

I think the most likely option would be that one species was around as an intelligent civilization for a long time, but did not develop technology for a very long time For example if one species developed under water and could not use fire

[@hate-chan4369]

They could use thermal vents to melt and weld metals together. They’re are metals and such in the ocean too

[@johnkrappweis7367]

I can’t help myself but be reminded of that one thing from Douglas Adams “Hitchhiker’s Guide To the Galaxy”- “Humans thought they were smarter than dolphins because they invented things like politics, New York City and Nuclear weapons. Dolphins thought they were smarter than humans for precisely the same reason.”

[@StarCaledonia]

I'd be very interested in your views on other earth species raising themselves into a technological species, perhaps along the lines of corvids using basic tools and then seeing humans start fires and realising they can do the same.

[@joshuafernandes6684]

Read "Serina: A natural History of a world of Birds" and See how

[@smileyp4535]

Is it good?

[@davidegaruti2582]

thank you , it's always good to see other men of colture around here

[@rm2569]

I came here to say the same thing lol.

[@joshuafernandes6684]

@@smileyp4535, it's very good for who like Speculative evolution. The recent chapters were about two sapient species, predator and prey, that coevolved.

[@davidegaruti2582]

@@rm2569 yeah i made that comment as soon as i saw this vid

[@papabaer6069]

I always assumed that a secondary intelligent species would have been uplifted by the first one. Let's be honest, intelligence moves you right to the top of the food chain, and I couldn't see 2 separate species not butting heads for resources. The second intelligent species would probably not arise naturally.

[@colinsmith1495]

The evolutionary timeline vs the technological one is certainly a different scale. Modern humans' earliest days to now are guessed at somewhere between 100K and 200K years, which is just a breath in terms of evolution. I think Isaac's situation of one aquatic species developing intelligence but unable to progress much in technology is a viable solution, and the idea of mutual predation by a trap/sly/cunning predator also MIGHT work, but that certainly suggests such cases should be rare.

[@shadowzerg]

That appears to make sense on paper but keep i. mind that it literally happened on Earth. We were the sentient species but we weren’t the only one, there were 5 other species of human in our past that concurrently evolved that had very high intelligence and definite sentience, notably Homo Neanderthalensis We would’ve been alien to each other though we were cousins. We didn’t uplift them but we did *bomb* them into oblivion

[@colinsmith1495]

@@shadowzerg But, as Isaac points out, that's not several wildly different species. In fact, given the evidence of interbreeding, it may not be fair to label them as different species at all.

[@barkasz6066]

Well it depends. If both species arise on the same continent then it is less likely. If however we suppose a planet with two continents with similar resources and geography, if the two races are separated for long enough, then they both might just have a chance to advance.

[@barkasz6066]

@@colinsmith1495 species are weird. Neanderthals were not different enough to stop us from breeding with them (although we still do not know how free and varied the combinations there were) but they are different enough both anatomically and genetically to notice that difference immediately on every single level.

[@DJRonnieG]

"Do you know what the last Xon said just before he died? 'Aaaaauggghh!!!'" -- Ambassador Londo Mollari, 2258

[@agalah408]

Was he dictating at the time? Generally people don't write down Aaaaggghhh! when they're dying.

[@DJRonnieG]

@@agalah408 It's a Centauri joke. Here's another one: Jokes: "How many Centauri does it take to screw in a lightbulb?" Punchline: "Just one, but in the great old days of Republic hundreds of servants would change a thousand lightbulbs at our slightest whim! "

[@lunaticbz3594]

I really liked the concept behind the holiday they were celebrating. "Each year we'd count up how many of our species survived, and celebrate our good fortune"

[@eclipsenow5431]

Did anyone else nearly squeal with delight when Isaac mentioned the Moties? Such a classic book!

[@timeDrapery]

Dude, Isaac, your bolo tie is the best thing I've seen someone wearing in a good while ... Where did you find this?!?

[@thalljoben3551]

@Isaac_Arthur I absolutely love that you say "Critters" instead of another word like animals or something. I smile a bit every time I hear you say it in a vid. I know its weird but I feel like Stewie from Family Guy when Brian reads him a story and he gets to rub Brian's ear. Its just comforting to listen to you.

[@monolalia]

Obviously the Zebranki were needed for the Zoq, Fot, and Pik to form the lovable cooperative union we know them as.

[@hunam1464]

I freaking love this reference.

[@메타카]

Frungy!

[@DTSephiroth]

Your mentions of the Vampire-Prey relationship reminded me of the Eloi and the Morlocks from "The Time Machine" by H.G. Wells.

[@Manwhoassociateshimselfwithbat]

Omg i have wondered this question for so long finally a discussion 🥲

[@michaaugustyn5414]

the speculative evolution project called "serina: the world of birds" actually uses both mentioned concepts (predator-prey relationship driving both species to sapience and the land-water version which implies one species evolves sapience in the water before the other one on land but is stagnant due to technological problems with water)

[@dontforgetyoursunscreen]

Ya I have seen curious archive's videos on it 1 sentient race which nearly goes extinct and the remnants loose intelligents and three more 1 aquatic species and 2 land ones created by predator prey the prey dies out by a ice age the 2 remaining species unite and uplift another 1 more evolves at one of the poles and 1 individual of a species dissident of the first one the 3 United species get moved to a new world by a god like entity who accidentally causes a apocalypse saving the world in long term my temporally stopping a ice age which would kill everything then a new species evolves and now we need to wait for the story to continue

[@ProperLogicalDebate]

4:00 IMHO the challenges of survival.

[@Emdee5632]

11:30 The Mote in God's Eye (1974) about first contact with humanity with an alien civilization is one of the best sci fi novels I've ever read. The Moties are on the brink of total collapse of their civilization. They know it will happen, their civilization has collapsed before, over and over. For them, Humanity might be a chance to break the cycle - or that they might finally get destroyed for good.

[@comicbstudios]

That sounds like some Crazy Eddie talk to me

[@Ivandor12]

I've always been interested in the idea of two intelligent species evolving on a planet and its moon.

[@IssasHusband]

or just 2 habitable planets being close enough in a binary orbit, imagine looking at a planet similar to earth, seeing its oceans, mountains

[@Ivandor12]

@@IssasHusband Imagine a primitive civilization on the planet looking up at a more advanced civilization on the moon and seeing cities. Pretty cool!

[@IssasHusband]

@@Ivandor12 yeah, that would be awesome

[@stainlesssteelfox1]

I'm reminded of 'The Second Dawn', the short story by one of your namesakes.

[@jonathanedwardgibson]

Depends on the ecosystem they operate under. I’m reminded of Hogan’s Giant series based on more cooperative symbiosis and saw our eating each other as he nightmare planet.

[@the11382]

I am more interested in what "World' means. Does it mean same planet or same solar system?

[@christophe5756]

Thanks for picking the music! It fits with, and compliments the videos seamlessly and perfectly when you, or one of yours selects it. 👍🏽👍🏽

[@topguntk870]

i was always thinking if life could evolve on 2 or 3 planets in the same solar system. how cool would that be? im sure somewhere out there in endless space this is a reality obvs endless times but wondering where and what would be the closest to us this happened?

[@76rjackson]

It's probably from some scifi story I read as a kid but if the planet had very different geographic regions such as might be found in a tidally locked world. Think predatory stalkers emerging from the nightside engaged in eternal war with the dwellers of the twilight zone. Or a highland, lowland early speciation event that has both branches eventually evolving tech.

[@bryancampbell9622]

Enterprise, clearly answered this with 5 species.

[@arklanbk]

what?

[@Eidolon1andOnly]

There were actually 6 intelligent species of Xindi, but the Avian Xindi were slaughtered by the other 5. What really bugged me though were the human like Xindis were called the Primate Xindis, yet the monkey like Xindis were called Arboreal Xindis, despite them also being primates. Should have called the human like Xindi something else other than primate. Maybe even a made up word like the "Mahu Xindi". I used to get confused whenever they said "Primate Xindi species" thinking they were talking about either the monkey like species or both the monkey and human like species in one group.

[@ferretfather2000]

@@Eidolon1andOnly actually those didnt seem to be monkeys, they looked to be more akin to sloths...arboreal simply means somthing along the lines of relating to trees.

[@Eidolon1andOnly]

@@ferretfather2000 Then they should have been called the Sloth Xindi instead of Arboreals, because they never show that species actually living in trees any way. Given that they're humans in makeup, they look more simian like than sloth like, and possess primate like features as humans are primates, but if they were called Sloth Xindi from the beginning, it wouldn't be as confusing as to why the ones who looked more like ape men weren't considered primates as the human like ones were.

[@DJRonnieG]

@@Eidolon1andOnly as far as I'm concerned they were wearing revised 'Planet of the Apes' prosthetic makeup.

[@cozmothemagician7243]

Your humor and delivery are getting better every time I watch your vids. And I am saying this as a fan, and a fellow entertainer. Thank you! (again)

[@mattjackson9859]

There really needs to be a Mote in God's Eye movie!

[@Emdee5632]

I've waited for over 40 years for that to happen. Or other stuff from Niven and Pournelle: Footfall, Lucifer's Hammer....

[@mitchh3092]

4:08 This made me think of the Krogan from Mass Effect. Their world is just hostile enough and low enough on vegetation that almost every part of the food chain is carnivorous or omnivorous. Because of this, they have wide-set but front-facing eyes, giving them a nearly panoramic field of view. According to the codex, they evolved these traits because they provide the best of both worlds. Wide-set eyes that can look like a prey animal's helped them avoid getting eaten, while the front-facing nature of the eyes gives them excellent binocular vision for hunting.

[@thedoruk6324]

We *know* humans and hominins have had *several* species on the same time!

[@1O3683e]

and look how many are left...

[@hunam1464]

And they’re close enough genetically to have interbred. Genetic tests will tell you how much of your genome is actually Neanderthal.

[@bigdopamine9343]

Irrelevant. Literally the first thing he addressed.

[@raidermaxx2324]

indeed, but these are like elves and dwarves, as Isaac already said, and not like humans and "lizard people" for instance, or americans and trump supporters..

[@raidermaxx2324]

@@1O3683e there is exactly one left. and its you and me, and everyone else.

[@zexks]

Little surprised you never mentioned the zindi from ST Enterprise. Their lore is like 4 or 5 different sentient species that came up on the same planet.

[@ericcomstock3237]

It depends on their evolutionary niches. If one is arctic-adapted and the other tropical-adapted, then they should be able to coexist. If they fill the same niche, then they will either merge or kill each other.

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

It's a fun topic but speciation is still science fiction in the year 2021 far less abiogenisis. 99% of evolutionary discussion is total conjecture rather than worked out theory but people pick it up and claim it as science fact.

[@blitzmotorscooters1635]

The idea that a sentient being like a whale/dolphin could build spacecraft really begs the question "How without opposable thumbs?" Ive always maintained that there are PHYSICAL BARRIERS that must be respected whether we're talking about anatomy or conquering star-travel. You cant have an industrial age and become spacefaring without something equivalent to thumbs, seriously...

[@blitzmotorscooters1635]

Same goes for these delusional people that think AI will somehow take over the world... Show me a robot that can walk, change oil, cut lumber, thread a needle, sprint, climb and write an essay on Greek Tragedy. Until you see robots like that, running their own factory where they build more of themselves, I wouldnt worry. There is a MASSIVE mental disconnect in these misplaced fears about so called AI... beyond the fact that consciousness is a product of WET WARE organic tissue with synapses, not computer chips. We have no reason to believe that consciousness of any kind can occur in a machine. ITS A FANTASY!

[@glennpinkus7352]

@@blitzmotorscooters1635 We must fully understand human consciousness before we can qualify ' others '. Is the ability to 'visualize' beyond what a species can see/comprehend considered consciousness or merely ' Sapience ' ? Octopi and Corvids problem solving may be just one layer of ' consciousness '.

[@TGBurgerGaming]

The question itself is awesomeness. Edit: Did you have to go with giant pig eating spiders?

[@JcoleMc]

Your pfp is delicious

[@godofthunder6259]

Yooooo that raycon segway was probably the best I've heard tbh and 3 out of 5 youtubers are sponsored by them so that is saying alot!!

[@InfamoussDBZ]

If humans interbred with our Neanderthal cousins, but only the female mitochondria is passed on. It would mean unless you don't have one single, solitary female Neanderthal mother somewhere within your family tree, you are part Neanderthal. I mean every male is descended from a daughter, right? How could we ever know that we're not part Neanderthal?

[@bjh3612]

that is not how it works fully. if a neanderthal female mates with a human male all their children would have a neanderthal mitochondria. if all their children are male and mate with humans all their grandchildren would have human mitochondria. even with no "neanderthal mitochondria" they could still have neanderthal dna. how we know if someone has neanderthal dna is through dna testing. the neanderthal lived in europe and the western parts of the middle east at the last known timepoints of human neanderthal interaction. By comparing the dna of europeans, aisian, and subs aharan africans with fossilized neanderthal dna we have made list of genes that are probably of neanderthal origin. that is how we find out if someone has neandeethal dna.

[@benthomason3307]

Actually Neanderthal DNA is completely absent in Africans.

[@Deathnotefan97]

@@benthomason3307 no it isn’t Africans have the lowest percentage of Neanderthal DNA, _almost_ none, but still some

[@bjh3612]

@@benthomason3307 it is absent is those of 100% pure subsharan or at least is found in very low percentages; not sure what the modern verdict is. African americans for example have neanderthal dna due to their partly white/european heritage as most black/african american people have a couple white ancestors. most humans arent pure X ancestry as we have migrated and interbreed between ethnic groups for thousands of years with major accelerations in the last 300. at this point it is more accurate to say some ethnic groups have higher percentage of neaderthal, or denosocan or other hominid dna than others as you can only find the result for a specific individual not the loose conglomerations or modern ethic groups(loose as people of the same ethnicity from neighboring countries will have large genetic differences based on each countries history with expansion, war, migration, and colonization)

[@benthomason3307]

@@bjh3612 very true

[@rv.9658]

I love how specific these topics get😭😭

[@StevePeel]

Not necessarily without each race knowing the other exists! Yes, I know what you mean, but that said, here on Earth we had several species early on, but they either merged or will killed off by one the other.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Or maybe if they were on another landmass, they could remain and develop their people and society differently. Maybe human like, or maybe even a more Elven look, but maybe on a seperate continent where only they reside. Once time goes on, they advance and meet each other and perhaps don't commit to wiping the other out. Could even have a situation where they merge, but can't inter-breed, and so it's like any other "race" of Human, but further removed and can't crossbreed, or as easily.

[@exhaustguy]

@@thalmoragent9344 What if the radiation of Java Man had made it to America. Then you conceivably could have had isolation and evolution that could have resulted in quite a different human by first contact.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@exhaustguy What's "Java man"?

[@exhaustguy]

@@thalmoragent9344 Homo erectus erectus. Still probably too human to qualify as a second isolated species. Fossils date back to 1 million years ago and found in Java (so America does not seem a big stretch). I found a 14 million year old candidate that made it to Spain.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@exhaustguy Oh, so they were just slightly different humans that may have evolved differently if given more time to do so?

[@captainstroon1555]

A planet on the hotter end of its star's goldilocks zone could have habitable polar regions but a deadly desert around the equator splitting the biosphere in two. This wouldn't necessarily stop a civilization from exploring the other hemisphere but technology in either hemisphere could stagnate for long enough that the other species could catch up. I doubt though that first contact would be made with both species at the same technological level.

[@st3llarmemer111]

It probably wouldn't be a desert at the equator though - it would be a very humid, steamy, and stormy rainforest environment with lots of hurricanes, and then a bit away from the equator you get the desert. Said supertorrid equitorial zone however would be so humid that despite it being 50c and the desert being 70c for example, the equitorial zone is as deadly if not more deadly for humans. And the equator would still probably act as a barrier for the same reason few humans live in the Amazon or the Congo rainforests.

[@captainstroon1555]

@@st3llarmemer111 Well, the barrier doesn't have to be at the equator itself. And it doesn't necessarily have to be a desert. A dense rainforest is an option for sure. A planet with a dense athmosphere and no landmasses crossing the equator could alsoe have a grand-line style ocean with constant storms. That could prevent land dvelling creatures from crossing the equator too.

[@over7532]

This episode sure sounds great through my Everyday Wireless Raycons!

[@AMVaddictionist]

symbiotic relationship between fungus and humans sounds like it would make a super interesting action adventure fantasy/sci fi story

[@ProperLogicalDebate]

Six minutes ago I was taking out the garbage. That's my excuse. LoL

[@thomaswagner9875]

Have you read David Brin's Uplift Universe novels? In this series, older Galactic races "uplift" races on other planets to sentience and become their patrons. Humans uplifted themselves, chimpanzees, and dolphins to become one of the few galactic races to uplift themselves.

[@miamitten1123]

Yes, Neanderthal vs Homosapien

[@NeilCWCampbell]

The road to victory is through manifest destiny

[@brunoethier896]

There is also some interesting variations in fantasy lore, for instance Tolkien's Orcs were actually "corrupted" or genetically modified Elves to give them much more strenght yet a much shorter life. Others such as the Elder Scrolls (Skyrym) wherr the lizardfolk (Argonians) were actually from another planet, but were imported through otherwordly means (alien or divine intervention).

[@purpledevilr7463]

We have octopuses, I’m sure they’re smart enough to build a civilisation.

[@rommdan2716]

Dolphins have a better change, we should uplift them.

[@virutech32]

they aren't that smart. not only does their behavior fall well short of general intelligence but they're also pretty antisocial so even if they got smarter probably no civs

[@rommdan2716]

@@virutech32 Still the most Intelligent Non-human species.

[@virutech32]

@@rommdan2716 no they aren't. chimpanzees & the other higher primates are. even after that there are some birds & mammals that would probably also qualify

[@rommdan2716]

@@virutech32 However, another advantage of uplift the dolphins is that we don't occupy the same niche and they could perfectly coexist in communities in the oceans near cities.

[@RickeyBowers]

Time Machine has an example of divergence of species where symbiosis assisted the divergent evolution. Natural selection fills the environment. If a large enough niche becomes available, selective pressure will find it and even exploit it.

[@thalmoragent9344]

Maybe we could've had Elves in our world, the way many of them are depicted, I could totally see some of them existing in our world.

[@matt.willoughby]

Be serious.

[@Deridus]

Ah, a perfect storm gathers! Boys, start sharpening thier knife... ears.

[@thalmoragent9344]

@@matt.willoughby I am. As humanoids, it's possible. I'm not saying they have existed in our world, just that in an alternate reality, we could've had Elven like humanoids or species and it would be plausible given the similar builds of the species.

[@michaelpettersson4919]

Maybe they will come into existence as some kind of transhumans.

[@acemax1124]

Elves AKA real tree huggers 😇

[@AFMR0420]

Fell asleep watching this video earlier (because your super chill voice), rewatching the entire thing.

[@SamSchott1]

Not to pick a nit, but dogs can walk and talk. We had a dog that could say, "Milk", "In", "Out" and a couple others. Even cooler was he would freak out a neighbor talking with my dad by actually following their conversation.

[@DeltafangEX]

Intelligent spiders you say... *cries in Children of Time/Ruin* Vampires too, huh... now I gotta check if Blindsight/Echopraxia got that third book.

[@themadman5615]

To this day, I still don't know who "Ray Jay" is

[@godofthunder6259]

Doesnt matter but that segway was an a+, really grabbed your attention. I think Isaac has a chance at a nice little side gig😂

[@evensgrey]

@@godofthunder6259 And either Raycon has decided that maybe mentioning Mike Tyson as a famous customer isn't really a good idea, or IA did a little editing of the script based on some sane understanding of US culture. (Mike Tyson was a hell of a boxer, but he's not really someone you want to associate with your product if you can help it. To say he's not a good person is to ignore the severity of the situation.)

[@unthawedwater747]

If a planet had two supercontinents where one branch dominated and another where another branch of animals dominated and it stayed like that long enough....I can totally see a mammaloid/reptiloid rivalry going on

[@spacechimp5141]

are they still called aliens if they evolved on that world?

[@raidermaxx2324]

According to some of us, they are aliens if they evolved on the other side of the border!

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

@@raidermaxx2324 Or within the boarder. Look at SJW crying the the blues about the white man on the north american land.

[@raidermaxx2324]

@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep what country are you from? your english is weird

[@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep]

@@raidermaxx2324 Portland Oregon

[@raidermaxx2324]

@@WaterspoutsOfTheDeep Oh ok, is english your first language? why do you use phrases that nobody says anymore? likke "crying the blues" ? and what does the "whte man" being on "north american" lannd have to do with anything? and what is the significance of " north american land" ? you mean the american continent?

[@DeltaVTX]

Isaac Arthur has cost me hundreds in audiobook downloads. Thank you, sir.

[@blitzmotorscooters1635]

Issac's perma-optimist hope that humans will ever escape this dirt clod is admirable. Never ceases to amuse me. Perfect content as usual. Thanks bro

[@diGritz1]

It happened here. Humans and Politicians.

[@NoFunNoHope]

I was JUST thinking about how fast we could breed dogs up to human/close enough level intelligence through ~natural~ (guided, no artificial gene manipulation) breeding programs. If we decided "Fuck going to mars we're making smart dogs!" and started a world search for the smartest dogs and smashed them together for a century straight i bet we could get dogs who play chess and get filled with early onset existential dread pretty quickly. Great timing.

[@NoFunNoHope]

Maybe a a few thousand years from now we'll have filtered most things that aren't cute and intelligent out of the environment, just insane selective pressures that force animals to interact with us in a ~positive~ way.

[@ipadair7345]

@@NoFunNoHope *~positive~*

[@andrewlynch4126]

@@ipadair7345 it’s for their own good 😌

[@bigdopamine9343]

For what purpose would we develop these abominations?

[@aldoushuxley5953]

What about cephalopods? You could greatly increase intelligence by introducing myelin producing genes, they have far lower generation times, they have arms to manipulate their environment, and color change etc to communicate, and because they live in water, they are far better suited to life in space (which is basically happening in 3d, not 2d) They also have no bones, so can live in very small structures, because of the 3d movement, you can use all the space, and "doors" between moduls can be only as thick as a coin, which means your space ships can be a lot more robust. They also breed extremely quickly. So if something bad happens to your guys, and only a few survive, you will be back to a functional number of octopuses very quickly again.

[@peacefulnuke7690]

Marine and Terrestrial sentient beings that live together with little conflict, like Gungans and Humans on Naboo

[@huntera123]

....If they evolve together on the same planet, they are natives, not aliens.

[@gnaskar]

They'd both be aliens to us.

[@planetdisco4821]

Whitley Streiber explored the theory of vampiric parallel evolution in his novel “The Hunger” Actually so did Larry Niven in the Ringworld series…

[@astrazenica7783]

Well it's happened on earth, more than 2 Does he mean species

[@maddoo23]

The way the term 'race' is currently used is made up nonsense. It has little validity in biology. You might as well divide people by hair color.

[@gabrote42]

8:05 I read Blindsight because you recommended it to me. This reids me f Those vampires without last names, who click and stalk and from looking at a corner they die

[@doctormatthattan]

Ask the neanderthals

[@calvingreene90]

Fred said "Homosapien Neanderthal mating results in particularly smart Homosapien children."

[@doctormatthattan]

@@calvingreene90 Yeah okay caveman

[@Angel24Marin]

You can expand the aquatic-land case to species bounded to a certain biome long enough for other intelligent species to develop in unclaimed biomes. For example cold latitudes would be hard to expand into for a cool blooded species or one that requires sunlight until fairly advanced technology. Or one whose development is bounded to a food source that can't be easily replicated. Like, for example hominids evolved to not producing vitamin C because we get it from fruits, what if in other continents that food source can't develop.

[@NoPulseForRussians]

My ex wife is proof positive that aliens can indeed spawn 2 races on the same planet. ⁶

[@ajakethompson]

I really Like the Land Sea Scenario. Trade of material might be a thing do to ability to access.

[@Ungrievable]

“Evolved” is a bit of a stretch. The “evolved species” haven’t shown themselves here yet. 😆

[@unintentionallydramatic]

Cheap, trite, Calvinist. Bad showing.

[@Allmenshouldrespectallwomen]

What are you talking about?

[@Ungrievable]

Everybody calm down! 🧐

[@Allmenshouldrespectallwomen]

@@Ungrievable change your username because you are making fun of Asian people. reported

[@Ungtartog]

I like the idea of dolphin scientists and engineers. Imagining what the equivalent of a submarine would be. I'm seeing a fluid filled vessel on tank treads.

[@arandomzoomer4837]

I’m writing a story like this (whether there are actually multiple sentient species is still uncertain, but assuming there are, this is my justification) It’s a high gravity world, where much of the heavier elements have sunk to the core, rendering them far rarer. When technological civilizations do arise, they might build glorious monuments using stone tools, and a rare few will develop more advanced tech, though the gravity well and thick atmosphere prevents them from traveling to the stars. Ruining the day for future civilizations because those guys mined up all the metal and caused a mass extinction. As such, you’ve got what is essentially the spore tribal stage where multiple sentient species vie for power, and even inter-species alliances and tribes

[@liberalrationalist8905]

Regarding two unrelated species engaged in genocidal conflict, that (I think) depends on resource overlap. The truth of the Sapiens vs Neanderthal question can be seen in the size of each population, regardless whether measured pre-contact or post-contact.. Food pressure was just too great for both species to survive. Both species were also in competition with major non-human carnivores.

[@thomasmarren2354]

I think there was a Star Gate SG-1 episode on two alien races. A race of humans from Ireland and another alien race of reptile like people. Having their prison ship crash on a planet SG-1 was visiting and the humans turned out to be escaped convicts who were hunting their former alien captors with SG-1's help until they found out the humans were the bad guys. The alien captain had a human wife too.

[@DrLongWang]

I think the most likely scenario of this would be if both develop different technologies. For instance, an intelligent species might develop tool use and fire and then have just that for a million years. Then another species develops agriculture and they form a symbiotic relationship wherein they share technology.

[@johnmcglennan8956]

I think that its more possible than is made out in this video. Remember that Humans were intelligent, social creatures for 50,000 years before the dawn of agriculture, and only pursued agriculture once the climate of the earth allowed it to be possible. And when the climate warmed up enough to make it a viable option, agriculture developed almost instantaneously and independently multiple times in places like Mesopotamia, the Indus river valley and the Yellow river. This could result in a situation where you have 2 separate, entirely isolated continents on opposite sides of the globe, where we see two intelligent species develop a hunter-gatherer social systems. Some event to do with the planet's star or atmosphere changes the environment to allow for agriculture, and then you've got two intelligent Alien Races on the same world.

[@firstcynic92]

Comments written during my first watching. I wonder if Babylon 5 will be mentioned. The Xon was a second, and in show extinct, intelligent species to evolve on Centauri Prime 3:15. The common ancestor of dolphins and octopuses would be an "urbilaterian", an animal that is bilaterlly symmetrical but is not a protostome or deuterostome. It's very unlikely we'll identify that species as it would be soft bodied and from more than 600 million years ago, not to mention that that change is developmental. Huh... just mainly discussing how it could happen. Oh well.

[@mattjackson9859]

I always wondered if the Xon were a considerably different species, or just close cousins like our Neanderthals.

[@StarBoundFables]

Very cool episode, Isaac, thanks 🙏🏽

[@centerbfd]

Me hearing "evolving... continents..." OOH! MONKEY!... wait, what's he saying?

[@stephenfritz7493]

Question for Issac! Can you do a post Kessler Syndrome episode on how to over come the debris. Would a Projected Orion ship with 50 meters of steel for armor do it? Please and thank you.

[@DJRonnieG]

I don't buy into the Star Child Skull stuff but Lloyd Pye did a compelling lecture on Bigfoot/Sasquatch-like creatures. In short, similar creatures appear in folk-lore all around the world. Maybe it's not a stretch to think that some form of living Neanderthal continues to live in hiding. While we adapt our environment to our needs, Sasquatch is adapted to his or her environment and has the good sense to evade us.