Covert vs vulnerable narcissism - what's the difference?

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DISCLAIMER: THIS INFORMATION IS FOR EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT INTENDED TO BE A SUBSTITUTE FOR CLINICAL CARE. PLEASE CONSULT A HEALTH CARE PROVIDER FOR GUIDANCE SPECIFIC TO YOUR CASE. THIS VIDEO DISCUSSES NARCISSISM IN GENERAL.
THE VIDEO DOES NOT REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON, AND SHOULD NOT BE USED TO REFER TO ANY SPECIFIC PERSON, AS HAVING NARCISSISM. PERMISSION IS NOT GRANTED TO LINK TO OR REPOST THIS VIDEO, ESPECIALLY TO SUPPORT AN ALLEGATION THAT THE MAKERS OF THIS VIDEO BELIEVE, OR SUPPORT A CLAIM, THAT A SPECIFIC PERSON IS A NARCISSIST. THAT WOULD BE AN UNAUTHORIZED MISUSE OF THE VIDEO AND THE INFORMATION FEATURED IN IT.

[@NarcSurvivor]

Covert narcissists are not always shy or introverted. They’re just hiding what they do, because they know people would not agree with it.

[@natashaevsimon1441]

EXACTLY

[@leahacevedo450]

Yes. Totally agree. They're just snakes slithering around the corners, staying out of sight.

[@arinaira1417]

I just realized I always find your comment in Dr Ramani video! I'll check your channel

[@jodyayers4592]

Hiding what they do.

[@80islandia]

To adjust this statement to the research that Dr. Ramani just explained, a vulnerable narcissist would have both overt and covert expressions of that narcissism that can present as either grandiose and/or vulnerable... if I'm understanding correctly.

[@sparkygump]

I can't think of any covert narc I've come across in my life who wasn't passive aggressive as well. They're almost impossible to reason with. I stopped trying.

[@moni3634]

Get well soon!! Thank you for this Video...I am a lot interested in the vulnerable narcisists,IT IS so difficult to understand this type of people...it took me almost thirty years to understand what was going on in my relation, thanks to your Videos iam more educated now ❤️

[@princesskileyrae]

I feel you on this. I genuinely didn't understand passive-aggressive behavior until a bunch of deep studying. I always felt like the a-hole after exchanges with a vulnerable/covert narc relative, but could never make sense of how or why that person got upset by my comment. But as you said, they're impossible to reason with - they won't just come out & communicate what they are actually upset by. That's the passive-aggressive game. "You should know what you did already!" The amount of attention & energy they're able to suck out a perceived slight is mind-boggling to me.

[@sparkygump]

@@princesskileyrae well said. It's amazing to me that every single passive aggressive covert narc I've come across wants you to read their mind and know what the problem is. If you do somehow figure what the problem is, they'll deny that's that it AND expect you to go along with the denied problem without question. There's no reasoning or compromise. Either you submit or they back off. It gets so frustrating to the point where you (I) explode and they blame you because you can't take their head games. Now, thanks to Dr. Ramani, as soon as I detect a covert narc, or any narc for that matter, I become the one who discards and walks away.

[@mariannami8049]

Exactly. I’m dealing with such boss right now. It’s making me feel crazy, unsecure, despondent.

[@sparkygump]

@@mariannami8049 better get get out as fast as you can. Things won't change with this person as they have power and control.

[@user-qt1le6ih6i]

Please look after yourself Dr Ramani. You're a wonderful, caring, empathic human being, as well as helping so many of us to understand and heal from the impact of Narcissistic abuse xx

[@beermilkshake]

You should save your empathy for the narcissist, they suffer the most. We should stop labelling others and focus on our similarities not our differences. I feel bad for anyone who can’t see past these differences.

[@Leoo117]

@@beermilkshake I hear you, but it's ok to have empathy for the doc. Also, I agree that it is important to have empathy for the narcissist, but it's important to know that you can't help them if they don't want to help themselves, so you need to be able to spot this fact so that you can walk away from them and rid yourself of the unnecessary drama. Ramani helps people to understand this so that people accept this and stop trying to help people that clearly don't want it.

[@beermilkshake]

@@Leoo117 Thanks Leo, I agree with you, however I do want to draw attention that there are many narcissists that do want to change and they feel very marginalised by the slew of experts that are against them. Just read the comments in this video, people are seething with resentment. The content that Ramini puts out there educates and validates the victims but doesn’t do much in creating wisdom and compassion for for this troubled condition from the Narcissists perspective. I think the truth is that both people in these kind of relationships are victims. Just once I’d like to see a person like Ramini attempt to make contact with the other side and actually help the narcissist.

[@Leoo117]

@@beermilkshake I understand. That's a good perspective. There is a woman on KZbin that not only admits to herself to being a narcissist, but understands her own narcissistic tendencies. She helps people to understand her issues, along with talking about the trials she faces when working on herself. She is very honest about her bad habits, and knows they are not appropriate, but still works to help herself. Many people relate to her. It's basically the type of channel that you are talking about. She is not an enabler, but instead she just shares her own problems, and the reasons for them and how she tries to do better. She is genuine. I can't remember her name, but if I find her channel again, I'll post it here for you. Edit: The woman I was referring to posted a video enabling and promoting cruelty in the workplace. This one video makes her channel not worth watching, because it is awful advice that leads to misery. Sorry, I didn't realize she held such awful beliefs until she posted that video.

[@beermilkshake]

@@Leoo117 yes please do! I would like to see that

[@kristinak.1703]

Here's a poem I wrote. Excuse my possible errors, English is not my first language: I know what monster dwells inside, he seems so calm, but he's in hide. I know his rage, sharpness of his claws, I have marks on my skin, Oh! How bloody it was! I know that beast, don't be deceived, it will rip you apart before he's reveled. You'll cry for help but no one will hear, because behind your back he started to smear. Run while you can, and put bridges to burn, so beast can't catch you, run and don't turn!

[@frauic1340]

Hey great, I like your verses, keep up the good work! (i am not a native english speaker either, but i love to express myself in as many languages as possible)

[@renmf880]

😔

[@myosotismalva]

Well-written 💯❤️

[@afafelannan6316]

@Amber maillet good one

[@C.Church]

Whoa, that's really good. :)

[@amandasoares1798]

I used to think the narcissist in my life wasn’t a narcissist because they didn’t show the grandiosity that was traditionally thought as a narcissistic trait… but I always felt something was terribly wrong. Turns out they’re the vulnerable type.

[@megalightsfan4948]

Howd you find out they were the vulnerable type

[@ExplodingPiggy]

@@megalightsfan4948There's a label on the inside of everyone's underwear

[@dianearena2516]

@amamdasoares1798. Same here. I couldn't figure out what was wrong & why. He seemed so nice. I'm so thankful to have learned about this now.

[@legeneralalexander6618]

Same here. I always felt my relationship was somewhat "off key" but couldn't put my finger on what was wrong. I am more and more convinced I was dealing with a vulnerable narcissist

[@timothydraper3687]

I got drawn into a friendship by a vulnerable narcissist (with overt traits), I got caught up in trying to fix her, and ended up being depleted and manipulated.

[@lovewhitey2027]

Always they are very stealth 🥷 & dangerous always a complainer victim so you try to help and Your caught 👹🤬

[@timothydraper3687]

@@lovewhitey2027 You end up feeling duty bound and obliged. At least I learned, though, it could have been a relationship rather than a friendship, which would have been harder to experience. I now know more about what to look out for.

[@mojadah10]

Omg. Same! Then I set her up with a guy friend (before I knew) She ran the game on him for years. They’ve broken up (she cut us both off) but his coddling and refusal to hold her accountable has damaged our friendship.

[@MelodieRose727]

@@mojadah10all of this is the story I’m living right now. It feels so surreal.

[@tmf403]

Same here - just went through 2 years of confusion and frustration. I am learning that I was trauma bonded to this person who treated me like shit - nice to put a label on them "vulnerable" narcissist - as I didn't think she was to the traits of the common/overt ones?!

[@char8095]

I know the world of science loves its categories however, out in the wild, it appears to me that all people with this Personality Disorder can use Grandiose, Covert, and Vulnerable tactics in getting what they want. All or some can be seen in a single individual. If they are to be labeled medically it seems they use the category the individual uses most often, but that does not mean the other tactics aren't used by that individual.

[@ifjc7216]

10:58 Ramani agrees

[@LSMH528Hz]

Well observed about scientists always trying to categorize in the little boxes they make up. Sometimes it's like they try to digitally input the time in a analogue wind up wristwatch.

[@nicholasschroeder3678]

Agrees with my field notes

[@curtmaloney7859]

A lot of us who also observe these creatures in the wild do agree.

[@Dr.JudeAEMasonMD]

100% and even us recovering codependents, so called “toxic empaths” can sometimes engage in these ego defense mechanisms if sufficiently triggered and/or if that codependent is lacking in healthy boundaries in order to get their attachment needs met. Tricky stuff indeed. Great content as usually, Dr. Ramani.

[@alisondunning7116]

This helped. I’ve known since I was a toddler that something was “off” about my Dad. He maintained that his life fell apart when I was born. He held enormous grudges against his previous employers and couldn’t understand why he could never keep a job. Although his rages were ever-present, punishments from him were mostly passive-aggressive. There was a reason I chose to study psychology at collage, back in 1981, but the courses then offered no insight. It’s taken another 40 years for me to finally understand what I’ve been dealing with. I feel glad I’ve lived long enough to understand, but so many years have gone by in a haze of misunderstanding.

[@dianegraber9333]

This channel, Dr Ramani and the comments are incredibly enlightening , we can’t undo the past but dissecting, Understanding the past is a road to healing. We all need each other🦋

[@Rain9Quinn]

I hear you and know what you mean. This knowledge 40 years ago might have helped my life too.

[@katalinmcewan]

I have only just realised recently that my alcoholic, abusive Dad was a covert narc. He died when I was 14, now I’m 42. I wish I could tell my empath Mum all about this, all the things I had learnt about narcs and empaths the past few years, but unfortunately, she passed away 13 years ago. He destroyed our lives!

[@mariahconklin4150]

Hm sounds like me until God changed my heart but then I went back to my old ways again. The passive aggressiveness is quite annoying

[@bereal6590]

Gosh I know this very feeling so well. It's the whole problem. Wblame ourselves because they say its us but we also blame ourselves because we don't know what it is and that all along we were the healthier ones

[@DanielSRosehill]

"What I consider to be the issue of our time" - > Good to hear her affirm that. I really believe we're living through an epidemic of mental health abuse that's probably been going on for a long time but is only now getting openly recognised

[@girlinthesouth850]

Agreed

[@kellyleighread807]

Is it that the Covert feels sorry for themselves?

[@Littlelunasoul]

Yes! Totally agree with this comment

[@sararichardson737]

Better late than never. God bless KZbin.

[@sklavinian]

Covert narcissists are overtly withdrawn and deafeningly silent when their cover is blown.

[@leegorringe5580]

Dr Ramani Pls take care of that cold Have a cup of tea with honey and lemon Hit the sack with a few aspirins Socks 🧦 on your feet Get well greetings from Stockholm 😀 🇸🇪

[@TheCanyonCritter]

Yes, neglectful, invalidating and indifferent

[@missfeliss3628]

I disagree ...I think ur describing just a person who doesn't enjoy socializing... Vulnerable narcissism is a lot more serious problem...u can not have one friend and prefer to be silent and not be a narcissist

[@92sarahmarie]

And they run the other way when run into!

[@alevela9309]

Yep, my dad has since ghosted me since I started developing an awareness of the true nature of our one-sided relationship. They can sense when their cover is blown and will never accept responsibility for their part or are even open to honest dialogue. They either want the relationship to go back the way it was or to have no relationship.

[@shodack5124]

Took me a while to realize that my narc was BOTH rolled into one delightful package of hatred.

[@lianacollier7064]

The more I hear about narcissism, the more I feel like there's a degree of narcissism in all of us! Hopefully, over time - we can learn & change. I think when it's most dangerous is when the older someone gets, the worse their narcissism is! Then what?!

[@roii98]

Right i tho this thing the samee

[@IshtarNike]

Yes of course there is. The point about pathological narcissists is that they take it too far. Everyone can be selfish sometimes. Everyone can be angry or upset. The narcissist is like that all the time and they have no empathy for others when they hurt them. Their personality is SO narcissistic that they become abusive to those around them. Normal people, even quite narcissistic normal people, aren't like that and will try to change. Narcissists cannot.

[@bethewholeu4532]

If you are emotionally mature enough to see that narcissistic traits can appear in anyone and are able to own your own narcissistic traits, chances are high that you are not a narcissist.

[@tanyabanks1918]

There is a level of narcissism in everyone but the difference is what you do with it. Do you go about loving yourself a little extra or do you use it to manipulate and deceive someone to give harm because you are an unhealed demon!

[@clementine8853]

Narcissism is for survival. Everyone has it! Balance is key. It’s when the maladaptive behaviors come into play

[@musmees15]

The covert behaviour kept me trying to please my boss, I felt bad letting her down. My dad was an overt narcicist. I was confused and thought my covert boss needed my support, and so did my (enabeling) co-workers. In the end I found out my covert boss was gaslighting me even more than I had recognised from my overt dad. I went throught the devaluation and discarding proces at work before I quit. It's the covert narcicism that made me really doubt myself because I didn't regognise it. Understanding the diffrent forms and expressions of narcicissm is very important! Thanks for this Dr Ramani, we need to understand this pattern in all it's 360 degrees....

[@Lemonade25]

It's the covert that really gets you. The overt you can surmise from the behavior and some how manage to keep it in check. The covert gets your trust and love first and then starts the work of tearing you apart. I have a covert narc in my family. She is of the vulnerable kind... until it turned to child abuse, which she conveniently forgot now that I bring it to her attention. In the wilderness she can go from covert vulnerable to grandiose in a nano second. I take responsibility for my life, the only thing I regret is not putting up boundaries sooner.

[@kathryncainmadsen5850]

Yeah, my boss too…

[@bakpoassylzhan]

I can feel for you. I removed covert narcissists in my life and realized all self doubt and confusion are from them. That is crazy.

[@drebugsita]

@@bakpoassylzhan Wow, that's powerful! Thank you for sharing. I'm doing that but that's extra motivation to stay on track

[@dianajane6185]

Thank you, Dr. Ramani, Pincus and Roche! This clarifies a confounding point of confusion for me. Take care of that cold. You are preciously esteemed.

[@wellnesspathforme6236]

What about the dualistic behavior of many narcissists -- one personality for those closest to them who threaten their ability to control the situation, and for surface-level people (close people tend to have expectations that surface-level people do not)? Very distinct personalities can exist. For example, all the blame from the wounded narcissist could be directed at the person who has done the most for them in their lives, but surface level people are given passes. IOW, one personality can be an obvious narcissist, but another isn't obviously a narcissistic personality at all. These people are VERY DANGEROUS because they may show the attractive personality to real a person in, then flip the script after, say, marriage paperwork is signed.

[@cooperyoung1928]

This right hear, is a great example of how narcissism is basically a gateway mental illness to many more mental illnesses. A point that needs to made more imo. What your describing is the stepping stones to multiple personality disorder.

[@galamander_1327]

@Cooper Young, hi. Narcs are master manipulators. It may superficially resemble dissociative personality disorder/multiple identities, but it usually isn't. It's acting, faking, manipulation and the narc is aware of it all. They switch tactics, styles, and personas with ease and it's all under the control of one personality. They're always holding up a false image in order to get what they want (attention, power, influence) so they get really good at reading a room and slipping quickly from one false face to another.

[@galamander_1327]

@Wellness Path For Me it's terrible how abusers work. They carefully cultivate a nice public image. They do it to lull their victims into a false sense of security. They also do it to escape blame and public scrutiny, and to continue their abuse behind closed doors. "Oh, no, your parent/sibling/spouse could never hurt you. S/he's such a nice person!" It leaves the people closest to them, their victims, isolated and cut off from outside aid and support.

[@richellelee1086]

Dr. Ramani spoke about getting out before you get entangled but that seems impossible when you’re dealing with master manipulators! They have to entangle you in order to feed off of you.

[@wellnesspathforme6236]

@@richellelee1086 Well, that's just it... you can see the "surface-level personality," and only that personality, going on for at least 5 years. I *know* this, but I'm not gonna say how I know it. The switch didn't flip until the person thought they had the leverage to flip it. If course, narcissism isn't taught to the plebs, perhaps because it is being engineered in us on purpose! Iron overload toxicity, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency all basically run together in the vast majority of cases. Those three things together appear to produce a hyper-active sympathetic nervous system and excess iron definitely triggers the NLRP3 "fear sensor" protein in the cells. Fe-ar, get it? Fe -- iron. Hidden in plain site. Here a couple links that I think are key, just note that "copper toxicity" is really a deficiency of bio-copper (hence an excess of the non-bio-copper form), and refers to iron overload, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency. If you really want to delve into the depths of the "rabbit hole," there is a Biblical prophecy aspect to all of this, too. Let me know if you want to hear it. Morley Robbins - My Theory Of Everything (Iron Overload) -- kzbin.info/www/bejne/f6KcZYWFd5qke9U Understanding Copper Toxicity (same as iron overload): kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6q5ZYedjah6eZI Iron Homeostasis and the Inflammatory Response -- www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108097/ INORGANIC Metallic Iron Filings in Cereal Video -- kzbin.info/www/bejne/fnjFqHmqoq-Cn5Y Alert For Parents - Heavy Metals In Gerber's Cereal - Can't Verify, But You Can -- kzbin.info/www/bejne/p6jCq3yprLmHe5I Note -- NO, this iron is not the same as iron in a bean or spinach. Anyone that says it is needs to pull metallic iron filings out of beans and spinach. They can't. You can also search out the effects of "copper toxicity" and "calcium shell," but those are both basically iron overload, bio-copper deficiency, and magnesium deficiency (they all tend to run together due to the biochemical nature of the body). Narcissists benefit the system in a number of ways. Some are so toxic and entitled that they create a tremendous drain on society (which is leveraged into government front power grabs). Others are very motivated by money because that temporarily fills their vacuum, so they will do ANYTHING for cash, effectively become the minions of those who control the global money systems. They don't ask why. And they drain families... and the Money Power Families view every other family on the planet as a threat to their "most fit" status, so the less powerful every other family is, the better.

[@alannahmayes7169]

The concept of narcissism being on a spectrum is essential for me. I’ve seen narcissistic traits in myself has been difficult to recognize prevailing traits however having two narcissistic parents and my last relationship being with a narcissist who ended up stalking me. I felt the other day that I was good at reading people, maybe more skilled at it then others however this skill did not lead me to predicting an outcome of behaviour (Humbling moment for me) this does make me anxious in wondering if I have grandiose tendencies however it isn’t surprising when the viewpoint of narcissism is most of what I had growing up. Or the debilitating shame I live with, constant using myself as a punching bag. Long story short as I study to become a counsellor, I very much appreciate your videos Dr. Ramani.

[@MichelleNovalee]

Exactly! My narc is a COVERT Grandiose narcissist. She is not shy at all. An extroverted social butterfly that is very successful. But her covert part is why it took me 37 years to figure it out!!! I wish more people would talk about the covert grandiose narc. I feel like people don’t believe they exist.

[@SerenEnfys]

Could you share some of your covert-grandiose narc observations, please?

[@lisabowden402]

My daughter in law is grandiose covert. Very difficult to handle.

[@digitalversatilediscjockey3465]

My girl is this same way, very covert but grandiose as well. Hiding certain things, or jumping back n forth between grandiosity and covertness. It's crazy, I'm about to go no contact again. Wish me luck! 🎉

[@grissomnumber1]

Well of course they exist. Most of us are really really scarred from these assholes

[@jackychuplis9512]

Thank you Doctor Ramani ❤️

[@bitchenboutique6953]

It took being away from the relationship to fully see that my true offense, the thing I did that upset him more than anything, was that I knew him. I saw him. If he didn’t come right out and tell me a thing, and I just observed it on my own, then I was a liar and made the whole thing up and had no business even suggesting such a thing. (Never mind that it looked like a duck and walked like a duck and quacked like a duck… if he didn’t call it a duck, I wasn’t allowed to call it a duck.) The second worst thing I did was assume that because I cared about him and considered him my friend that he felt the same way about me. Nope. Nothing quite like being told after a 15 year relationship where you’ve been the shoulder they cried on and the person they could always depend on for love and support when they needed it that the reason they talked to you was “you were the only one there.” Ouch. Good thing I had already decided to walk away when he said that. I don’t think he realized he was telling me I was right in my decision.

[@nimzm97]

Oh my good fucking lord. I have been through a relationship with who put me through the exact same thing as you described at first. And I’m having such a difficult time trying to heal because of the damage I put myself through just to make it work. I’ve lost my sense of judgment. All I know now is that I didn’t deserve any of that. And I really do hope that you feel better and that you’re able to pull yourself out of it. Take care of your heart :)

[@bitchenboutique6953]

@@nimzm97 I walked away in Jan 2020 and I’m realizing lately that I’m not agonizing over it. For a while I knew in my mind I did the right thing but my heart worried that he was alone and friendless while the world shut down. I just had to keep telling myself that HE TOLD ME I wasn’t important to him, even if maybe it was a lie. (Because he had also told me a year before I was the only person he talked to outside of his therapist!) It really does get better. Keep putting your focus on things you know are real and people who truly appreciate you.

[@nimzm97]

@@bitchenboutique6953 Having a big heart does put you in tough spots but atleast we know we tried. I’m glad you could make the decision to walk away even though it was hard to convince your heart. And sometimes that is the most painful part. I hope for more peace for you and for people who go through similar things like us

[@shaiiiisky3906]

I can relate, my current pending divorce is within a 16 year friendship and 3 year marriage to my covert narc. I can relate to the bond you thought you shared. I too, really believed that our friendship through the years meant something. But this person I didn't know, and turns out I shouldn't have tried to know. I was just a task to accomplish, get, keep isolated, abandon friends and family and to die inside lol. kidding about dying inside but I did almost allow him to continue ruining me, or me allowing him in too deeply and he taking that power to isolate our life's across country alone. I chuckled out loud when I read "Never mind that it looked like a duck and walked like a duck and quacked like a duck… if he didn’t call it a duck, I wasn’t allowed to call it a duck." haha this is the truest statement. Everything was only true when he said it was first, then the world could follow.

[@micheleshively8557]

It is a blow! Even though deep down I knew he didn't care. But them saying you were the one who came, or was there. That's it

[@suzq2744]

We have to be extremely careful to not label actual discrimination victims as vulnerable narcissists. In fact many narcissists will actually project that toxicity onto people who are facing real oppression. For example, if someone brings up how they are facing racism or sexism, toxic people will accuse them of having a “victim mentality” to avoid acknowledging systems of oppression in the world. We also need to realize that if you are being abused by a narcissist who constantly tells you no one likes, loves, helps, or cares about you it’s very easy to internalize that and start believing it which is a tactic of the abuser to make you appear like the narcissistic one when in reality they have been planting those seeds for years. Having low self esteem can be a sign of vulnerable narcissism but it can also be a symptom of narcissistic abuse syndrome so we must be very careful not to mislabel actual abuse victims💯

[@dreamchaser7603]

The fact is a person should get rid of victim mentality regardless!! A part of the process is stop trying to prove yourself!! It is a number one shield from all of the toxic environment… Stop over explaining, pleasing, trying to convince people and earning validation.

[@M-gd6ow]

Yes to OP

[@strugglingmillennial1298]

Thank you for breaking this down for us, Dr. Ramani. I have seen the switch with my brother during arguments where he would treat me with so much contempt. It’s as if I’m a piece of gum stuck on the bottom of someone’s shoes. Then he’d turn around and play the victim when called out on his abusive behavior. They think people are beneath them, but are so deeply insecure that anything will trigger them.

[@katie8068]

That is so true.

[@joshuaonibiyo]

I think you should talk about the narcissist in comparison to the normal personality as it relates to responsibilities, crisis, validation, invalidation, issues that trigger actions or responses from both the normal healty mentality and the narcissist. I'm really not clear on the distinction between narcissistic action/reaction and a normal action/reaction. Examples will really help.

[@Just4izzybell]

Same that’s a good idea:)

[@stephanie3848]

I wonder if a lot of bullying/pity in childhood can influence a person to become a vulnerable narc later on. I know someone who was bullied constantly and others would just stand around staring feeling sorry for them. (I would stand up for them, but I was smaller and much younger than the bullies and whenever I did I would regret it). Later on in adulthood this person seemed to use pity as a weapon; trying to make people feel sorry for them if they ever felt slighted. They told me personally that the pity had hurt more than the bullying itself. Fortunately this person is much more healthy now.

[@anitashehu9784]

Maybe it’s trauma, PTSD ore CPTSD, when you are traumatized you feel sorry for yourself, you feel unpowered, you have victim mentality. The difference I think is that when a person is narcissist even vulnerable narcissist he feels superior. I’m the best but people don’t see it. I’m the smartest, the prettiest, etc. A traumatized person has victim mentality but feels inferior, and is in contact with this feeling.

[@SCH292]

I was a bully victim too. 6th grade year was the worst for me. Long story short..there are more details about my teenage hood but..too long to explain. Anyway...long story short..one day in 6th grade I snap. I right punch and left hand pimp slap the cowboy kid who physically bully me. I was ready to fight and lose it all. Didn't care. He backed off and tried to be like.."I'm kidding, Give me 5". I gave him 5. Another pimp hand. Right pimp hand slap. After that all the other kids stopped picking on me. The physical and verbal bully stopped. In 7th grade I was a loner. 8th grade year the cowboy kid tried to bully me again and the verbal bully kids tried to do it again but this time I got more..."physical with the cowboy kid". I and other non white kids...aka poor kids we were kind of falling into the "gang category". I sweat him out, punch him, kick him few times, called him out and push him around when he tried to pick on me...there is a ton of details about my life at home, what and others but that doesn't matter in this story. Anyway after a few "contact with the cowboy kid" that send a strong signal to the other kids who tried to verbal bully me. Yes. Some of the "verbal kids" kids tried to verbal bully me and talk smack but a few good.."pushes and sweat" put them in line. Later that year the cowboy kid and I....well I can't say friends..but..we were cool with each other. We talk shit to each other time to time but no harms done. In high school freshman year I manage to shake off the gang category and become a good boy..Kind of. Lol. Anyway...for me..the thought of using the "bully victim child hood" has never crossed my mind. All I know is that the only narc person I have to deal with is my narc ass mom.

[@Sarablueunicorn]

@@anitashehu9784 A traumatized person is a victim I don't know why people use the term "victim mentality" in a pejorative way, someone who's actually a victim but is not there displaying warrior/survivor traits. Nobody needs to be a hero or act like one. I think people feel uncomfortable around people who really display the true mentality of a victim so they don't want it and decided to make it a "bad thing". The person feels bad, inferior, afraid, pity for herself (maybe no one else does) and can't go out of that state and instead of support or ignore the person gets blamed my others with resentment "oh you just have victim mentality. Just move on, I think it's time".

[@eveningowl9443]

@@SCH292 my middle school years were bad for me, i got called f@g get alot, and got beat up like 3 times randomly, and bullied alot and few bad personal things also hallen around that time...... and i didnt turned out to be a narcissist , im 30 now, before i met and knew what a narc was, it was this year, i literally had long term relationships , feel empathy fkr some humans and especially animals... lol i didnt turned out to be narc lol

[@eveningowl9443]

@@SCH292 oh and like 2 years ago one of the guys that bullied me badly in middle school added me in FB and we chat once in a while like adults, and we havent yet discuss why he and others treated me bad which i really dont care lol but still lol u know what i mean

[@aishakhanom8077]

Dr ramani is so beautiful. Although This has nothing to do with the video itself, I just wanted to highlight that, in a world full of filter and glitter, Dr Ramani is such a breath of fresh air.

[@DiogoHenriqueSantos]

Thank you doctor. You probably saved my life. 🥰

[@Jazzbanjorex]

The narcissist is a Shape Shifter and this shows the four shapes.

[@teal1010]

💯Exactly!

[@z3lda808]

IF you're interested, I think this is the citation: Pincus, A. L., & Roche, M. J. (2011). Narcissistic grandiosity and narcissistic vulnerability. In W. K. Campbell & J. D. Miller (Eds.), The handbook of narcissism and narcissistic personality disorder: Theoretical approaches, empirical findings, and treatments (pp. 31-40). John Wiley & Sons, Inc

[@ALLfemalesLiecheatnsteal]

I notice they don’t blink normal and stare a lot even into space or at the wall. The ones who i knew were adopted or didn’t have a father figure etc. most were entitled and feel they’re special and better than others. Low or fake empathy. They love money and power, but especially social status.. They love being noticed for charities galas events that give them recognition. Usually with money they stole or fruaded from someone. I also notice they have really thin upper lips and long faces like a crescent moon. Usually with long chin

[@creampeonies2417]

Exactly 💯 I've noticed the same. especially the eye blinking and staring off.

[@davidslocum9536]

This is spot on!! My experience, word for word, except the adoption part. My God, these people are like cookie cut outs, carbon copies of one another. They have the same playbook from China to America. It's really unsettling when you think about it.

[@lovewhitey2027]

You know my X? 😉💔👹 they act on autism scale so you are disarmed to there coldness

[@susanstetter9906]

Omg this is my husband.

[@user-qt1le6ih6i]

They rarely yawn either. Usually when someone yawns, it's contagious. Not so with Narcs.

[@MaciekRabizo]

Get well soon dr. Ramani and thank you for another great episode! :D

[@MsFlybybutterfly]

Oh my I’m so glad to hear this one. I am dealing with a covert narc. And most people can’t see right away what I dealt with. Before boundaries…I used to be drained all day or i would be in bed all day no energy. As soon as this person was out of my energy field I could literally get up and get ready and do what I need to do. Pay attention to the little things with covert narcs.

[@shlokhoms8081]

tanks doc.. as a covert narc, I'm trying to heal through terapy.. but it's always feels like something missing... I'm so thankful for your explanation.. keep learning this subject and maybe one day... you find a cure.. for my demons and for other demons as well... o really appreciate your work doc... i really want to stop feel so entitled all the time... because I know i no better than anyone else.... and maybe some day I'm going to feel in that way..

[@gn2665]

Know that Jesus loves you. I am sure it must feel very dark but Jesus can bring light even to the darkest places and heal the deepest most painful Wounds so I pray that you find Him and see it for yourself. God bless you

[@SRose-vp6ew]

The fact that you're willing to admit and repent is huge. Truly God bless you and I will be praying for you. Yes, God loves you and sent his son for you who was perfect but took on your sin so you could be free from sin. While there are still consequences for harmful actions where we harm self or others. There is then no condemnation to them that are "in" Christ Jesus. That's from Romans. Along with wise therapy that understands healing is out there to be had keep humbly praying and reading scripture asking God to show you the truth and set you free through the power of what Christ did on the cross.

[@theroadislong]

Dr. Ramani, I have discovered you through my therapist after she suggested that because of my upbringing with a grandiose narcissist, I am displaying narcissistic thoughts and behaviors. This terrifies me and I'm struggling with knowing if this is true or not because my mother was over the top abusive and did a lot of unloving, hurtful things that I still struggle to make sense of today. The thought that I could be the same as her, makes me sick. Until seeing this video, I have always felt that I think too little of myself to be a narcissist, but everything you said about vulnerable narcissism resonates with me. There is nothing that I want more for myself than to heal from what has hurt me in my life and have better interactions and relationships with the people in my life. Is it possible to be a narcissist and not even know it? In the sense of the narcissistic behaviors being unintentional? Narcissists have such a bad, negative reputation for being selfish and intentionally abusive and that's just not who I am. If I am one, I want to do everything I can to NOT be one. I don't think people ever willingly have relationships with a known narcissist, and the general consensus among people seems to be to stay away from them.

[@rwheellife]

So what this means is that all NARCs will use these 4 MODES of thought, behavior to monitor, manage their needs . This information has verified the 9 years of living with my X NARC 27 years ago ! It took me 7 years to learn these modes with no knowledge of Narcissistic behavior. After getting familiar with the repetition of mode swings I started using them to mirror my narc and try to force another mode swing that the narc didn't want to go to. As you could imagine. That was the beginning of the END. " I survived "..

[@Iskandia]

Now this makes way more sense - thanks again Dr. Ramani for clarifying everything! My mother always reminded me of the Kaonashi (No Face) from the movie Spirited away, or the Other Mother from Neil Gaiman's Coraline. She acted vulnerable to get her victims to bond with her out of compassion and empathy, and once they were trapped in her net, she would show her true face. She would try to force you to do her bidding, and when that failed, the victimized manipulation came into play.

[@user-vn9sh6hv8r]

That's what my mother does too. It messes with you so bad..! I swing between pity and loathing with her, and often doubt my own actions with her as i question if i am just being "mean" to her when i avoid or ignore her, but if i engage with her i regret it immediately. As Dr Ramani says "You can't win!" It is such an internal struggle tho - the guilt at seeing your mother's vulnerability and not doing anything to help vs the need for self-preservation knowing how it *always* goes. I think i have more work to do on my feelings of guilt & responsibility, and my boundaries. Thanks for sharing that insight - i love Hayao Miyazaki and Gaiman's work too! I find a lot of meaning and symbolism in old fairy tales also. 🙏😊

[@TofuTeo]

@@user-vn9sh6hv8r You articulated this really well! Thanks for helping me understand my own experience in clearer terms :-)

[@pegasusgenesis360]

It's SOOOO difficult to live with someone like this. Thanks for the great info. More on vulnerable narcs please!!! There's not much out there on it!!! Not in the way you explain everything you do!

[@aimeegabon301]

It's very to get out in a relationship...tbh..

[@yesyoga]

OMG this is what I have been facing for ten years and has been driving me crazy. Thank you Dr. Ramani! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🎯

[@theresafowler9000]

Thanks for explaining this so clearly, Especially The way you made the distinctions of the overt-what we can outwardly see - and the covert - what’s going on on the inside that we can’t see. And that’s an oversimplification of what you talked about, but it sticks out for me. Also, that the vulnerable of a more grandiose narcissist comes out when they are “out of sorts” which is a lot of the time. Ha ha. I’ve been through it.

[@maryamfallahi875]

You teach so clearly Dr.Ramani. thank you🥰

[@quincicoates2490]

Dr. Ramani, I think I speak for everyone when I say that we'd like to see more of your cat.

[@sareatonin]

here after finding out I was being cheated on by a covert-vulnerable narcissist.. 10 years wasted. thank you for the videos. it is bringing me some comfort to know I am not crazy.

[@yfhuang6212]

The covert narcissistic colleague I know makes very little effort to interact with other people in real life. In the beginning, everyone in the office just thought that he was shy and socially awkward.. but within time, I got to know him better and realised he was actually always actively observing everyone and had opinions about everyone and everything (mostly in a judgmental way). And he is very active on social media. Now I know his quietness was just a technique to make people wonder about him and eventually to make others approach him. Because through this, he finds a sense of superiority, which feeds his ego. It’s his way of manipulating others around him. They are such dangerous people. They confuse all the people with good intentions who try to help them fit into a new environment (because they made it like as if they needed help very much). And eventually they hurt those good people because of their fragile ego and they are never truly sorry. It took me so long to get over and understand everything. If not because of all the healthy people in my life, I’d probably still be in the mist feeling so confused about such a person. Be careful with new people you come across in life. If what they do and say in private and in public, on social media and in real life is inconsistent, then double up your guard.

[@tommywitte9916]

Good advice

[@RobbieNewell]

i’m the same way tho..maybe he just didn’t want to be bothered. some people really prefer their own company, introverted and have a mind of their own that forms judgements inside jokes random imagination daydreams bright ideas etc. we’re all observant and we all judge off what you say judge even if we have the conscious to be like”nah that ain’t right i shouldn’t of said that.” that person just told you what they were thinking and you’re mad bc you didn’t think that or had the slightest clue. irony is you judged that person thinking bc they were mild mannered and meak and quiet that they didn’t have a mind of their own. no one has to wear their heart on their sleeve and it’s no ones responsibility to make others comfortable with their quiet demeanor. shit at least they told you. goes to show you how aloof they were cuz if they were really intellectually manipulating you they wouldn’t have even told you in fear of putting themselves in a bad position. Point is I am that person. I case the joint everywhere I go. And I pick and choose who I want to speak toI don’t go out my way to observe. I have eye balls and I can see. I am very good at reading people but not to manipulate them I actually don’t want to be bothered tbh. Most people don’t appeal to my senses or my energy. I just have no interest in talking with people make or female period. Probably why narcissist pick me out ironically lmao. I like my own company and it’s better to be quiet about the fact that I am not a team player, I know I’m sensitive, I know I am moody as hell.. I’m self aware and I can do bad by my damn self.

[@RobbieNewell]

so many typos but you get my point

[@daviedood2503]

Well they have a real fear of rejection. So if YOU goto them, they know you won't really reject them then. You're approaching them. If they goto YOU and you give them this dirty @ss look like "uh why are you here?" this will make them sustain a narcissist injury badly. And to take one of those while on the clock and NEW at a job.. Isn't good for them. If they have a real disdain for EVERYONE, this could be an actual psychopath. No fuel required hence why they don't need anyone. They fuel themselves. Always goal oriented.

[@yfhuang6212]

@@daviedood2503 It’s not as black & white as that. This particular colleague hardly interacted with anyone else but in comparison showed lots of interest in me in the beginning .. I guess it was because of my very obvious empathetic approach to people around me. That was how I got to see the private side of him as we had interactions outside of work. But even that, he was still very secretive about his own private life… Although he did very very diligently put up all his sport achievements on his social platforms and interact very actively with his followers.. Gradually I found that the so called friendship was never reciprocal and I was the only one who was always there for him when he was in need but never the other way around. And that he was also always lying by omission. And that he was never empathetic towards people around him. (He would be literally sitting in front of his desk, focusing on his own work while the entire office is helping each other moving furniture around or unpacking boxes).. So I tried many times wanting to distant him, but every time he just kept on saying “I don’t have many friends and I want us to be friends, and I’ll be better.” … But nothing was ever better. It almost felt like you’re running a loop again and again. Nothing ever changed. It was so emotionally draining. Like being with a very needy and immature baby… Until one day he made a mistake at work and got criticised by his supervisor. He told me about it so I stayed behind after work trying to find a way to help him. But when I was only laying down the facts(of him making the mistake), he lost it and called me being unsupportive( his actual words were much harsher than this)… That was when I had my epiphany that I didn’t deserve to be treated like this and I had to stay away from such a person. I didn’t know anything about narcissism back then. But thanks to him now I do. Consider it as a valuable lesson learnt.

[@om617yota8]

Different shades of the narc chameleon. They change their type on a whim, whatever seems to give them the most narc supply in the moment.

[@michellec2850]

Miss Freedom- Fighter, Miss Boundary-Keeper, Miss Soul-Healer: I love you! The dedication and love to your craft shines through you. It has brought so many transformative moments in my life, and I thank you with all of my heart.

[@joban4963]

Covert Narcissist is how I feel, at least how you describe the internal experience, but I don't think I use these excuses. I've mostly sat and quietly blamed and hated myself. I always got projected on by my parents so I developed a fear of appearing to be self-interested. It actually took me a very long time to actually acknowledge that the problem was I was being horribly abused, rather than it all being somehow my fault. SSRIs really helped with the constantly self-vitriol though. Some of it might just be I'm currently trapped on the edge of a toxic family and living with people who believe I am suffering from a non-specific psychosis rather than choosing to believe me, and I went my entire life being completely invalidated at every turn. I think I might come across as desperate to be believed and it makes me less believable? People outside the family seem to treat me with dignity and respect, but I can't tell if it's genuine or not. It's such a stark contrast from how family treats me, and I can't tell if it's me or them.

[@HeartFeltGesture]

Cognitive dissonance, split perceptions, duality, dilemma, confusion, gaslighting, doubt, lying, mind-games and deception. All tactics of the covert N. to keep the person unstable, confused, second-guessing, discombobulated and disorientated. A pendulum of doubt and conviction is what we swing on as we try to make sense of our experience. Potentially, one day the scales finally tip and conviction is reached, you have come to the conclusion that your entire family is under a toxic spell, you are the lowly scapegoat, and your mother / father is the wicked leader at the head of the cult. There has been an orchestrated campaign of death by a thousand cuts against you, for decades and counting... The way you are noticing being treated by people outside of family is real, but there is cognitive dissonance and a disconnect from natural intuition because you have been gaslight and manipulated so much within the toxic family, this is why total no contact is necessary to heal from the dissonance by never experiencing it again in your life, no where near mentally ill people who are hell bent on manipulating you / destroying you.

[@amitaagrawal3724]

💜 Dr Ramani appreciation post: you have changed my life. Also I hope u keep growing out ur natural hair colour. It's so beautiful!

[@lorianne4608]

Doctor Ramini is very pretty!! Beautiful inside + out!!

[@bereal6590]

I love it that she is growing out her hair. I find that it's empowering to see a strong intelligent woman being a normal woman and not the let's all look 25 again .. to be valued! Hate how women are seen for looks and not intelligence 😊😊

[@amitaagrawal3724]

@@bereal6590 so so true! I love how she's helping me embrace myself inside and outside! Let's shatter the barriers to being our best selves together! 💜🙏🏽

[@javiervidal366]

These different subtypes of Narcissists can be confusing. I can see how those authors tried to distinguish these types by defining overt vs covert and grandiose vs vulnerable, leading to 4 subtypes. However, I don't think this model captures the type of covert narcissist, who engages in behaviors that are different than other types. The strategies and tactics by a covert narcissist are different, so it's not so much about covert narcs and their inner thoughts. Covert narcs spend more time and efforts towards impression management. Similar underlying issues around shame, pride, entitlement, arrogance, but their efforts are to gain positive social credit for their image. So they may appear humble, when they're not. This is different than a vulnerable narcissist. Bottom line, it's confusing and there's more to unlock but in the end it doesn't really matter. A grandiose or vulnerable or covert narcissist can cause just as much damage to others and they all lack empathy.

[@Maria-it2qy]

YES!!! Finally the answer to my question! I have two narcissistic parents and i've spent a long time trying to figure it out as they both acted differently at different times and it was so confusing. My dad was so vulnerable, blaming, angry, passtive, abscent but then also sadistic, punitive, harsh, grandiose, arrogant, violent at times. Same with mom. It was so confusing. Now i kbow that they are both all the types at different times, baseline is they are both narcissists and hence toxic and abusive.

[@kevinwaweru324]

Story of my life

[@Nina94771]

Right there with you

[@lilly-mb6dl]

This talk changed my life. I thought I was crazy because i KNEW from my research and education that my partner exhibited narcissist tendencies. My counselor met my partner ( my partner insisted). Last week I timidly suggested with my extensive KZbin studying lol that my partner is a vulnerable narcissist with overt tendencies. He said I was spot on. It's hard, I remember our first argument he threatened to get a divorce and leave me. I told my friend the next day, "I think I love him more than he loves me." Thank you and a couple other psychologists on KZbin and my counselor. I can be okay with loving him more than anyone and let him go. I still cry lots but it's okay. It does get better

[@simonescorner]

This definitely helped, I was having confusion about these coverts but now I understand

[@ardisdurbin4702]

Such interesting stuff. When someone lives with it, sometimes you can't see the trees for the forest... thank you for being our guide to clear a path to see where we're going and where we've been.

[@LSMH528Hz]

Notice how narcissists keep moving the tree's around

[@lukeoldfield7940]

@@LSMH528Hz they are constantly felling and re-planting :)

[@katieonlyusernameavailable]

When I heard your description of the overt and covert vulnerable narcissist, I just realised you’re describing one of the most draining and energy consuming colleagues I’ve ever worked for- suddenly it all makes sense!!!!

[@goldielocks4597]

I once worked for a covert narcissistic boss. It took me a long time to figure it out. The minute i realized it, I quit my job. It was after quitting, I realized how much of gaslighting I was subjected to. Horrible experience to have your reality questioned.

[@4whirledpeas]

This is so brilliant because so many videos online say "a narcissist does X" all the time. Here, we get nuance as to how narcissism can present in response to specific situations.

[@patriciamcdermott1367]

This just explained EVERYTHING that I was so confused about for the last 5 years! I thought I was going crazy with the grandiose and vulnerable personality style and then to also see so much overt and covert behaviour wow!!! I have never heard this explained so well! I lived this.. it is absolutely the truth! Thank you Dr. Ramini for your great work. Life changing! My life has changed for the better because of you.

[@dhanyaslifeventure]

Could you please make a video on-how narcissists take their victims up in the air and then throw them to the ground within a short time. This leaves us so much in trauma and questioning. Thanks Ramani

[@frauic1340]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/on6poJtropyXp6s

[@Sarablueunicorn]

You can watch Kanika Bakra(?) youtube she has npd and aspd. In her case she says in the beginning she feels really excited about this new person, because she feels emotionally flat almost all the time, so during this hormonal rush she puts the person on this really high pedastal of impossibility. After the feeling of novelty wears out (remember they see people as objects for a use) they start to feel bored and looking for flaws, that could be the most superficial stuff ever like they suddenly notice you have an accent, or a habit that was cute at first now it's odd, you don't like exactly the same things. At this time you are already an old phone model and they start to idealize a new one and desperately want to get rid of you, first they will act like you are trash but if they wanna avoid confrontation they'll stay stuff "you are imagining things. everythings fine" (especially if they haven't granted a new source yet), if you still stick around the abuse will escalate because they want you to leave but you leaving still messes up a bit with their ego, so they'll probably make you leave first play with your mind a bit and then discard you with extra cruelty for you even daring to leave them (even if that's exactly what they wanted) because they always have to win. If they run off of supply, they don't have no on to idealize, and they are feeling low, then they get to hoover. At this time they don't idealize you at all, you already lost all value, but they are so low on supply that they need sth so they lovebomb again with pure manipulation intent, they don't want you back,they just wanna use you temporarily to restore their ego and while they look for other sources of supply. Here's the resume. If you want another example you can check Kev Higs youtube channel. He's a relationship coach but has some good material. He has a video about "users" and he uses a car analogy and then even illustrates with one more example about the program survivor and mangoes. (I can't remember the name). If this is a narcissist issue then majority of people I came across are narcissists, they all fall into the category of "users" and "selfish". Being this such a common human behavior, I don't think it should even classify as mental disorder because that's the norm. Objects have become disposable so did people, let's just call it evolution. kids will break their old playstation on purpose so they can get the new one...there's a new phone model coming out less than every year, with basically not much difference from the previous one (one more camera, more memory) but people run like crazy dogs to pay a fortune an expose on social media that they have the NEW MODEL, the other gets forgotten inside a drawer or broken for a funny tiktok video. I'm not a psychologist or did any research...I just observe.

[@frauic1340]

@@Sarablueunicorn Thank you very much for your contribution. I am observing exactly the same thing. (It seems that people abandon human qualities such as compassion or kindness as soon as the external incentives (nowadays especially financial validation) are removed. In the past, the incentives came from institutions, such as the religious or secular ones. I always have to think of the French Revolution in this context, that the conditions that prevailed then still prevail today, with no prospect of restoration: the decay and rottenness of the all-devouring monarchy that no one needed anymore, and on the other hand, the blind murderousness of the revolutionaries. It seems that what is needed now is a kind of philosophy that creates the inner incentives for a peaceful, sustainable and appreciative coexistence of all people living in this world). In dealing with narcissists, probably only one thing helps: consistent turning away.

[@michelekawamura1357]

I’m currently navigating the divorce process with the god awful vulnerable narcissist I’ve spent the last 30 yrs being tormented by. In the end that whiny, thin skinned, toddler.

[@megalightsfan4948]

What were the clear signs they were a vulnerable narcissist

[@tamaragaines562]

Wow this explains so much! I was so confused because I know that my ex was definately a covert narcissist how sneaky and subtle he was! And yes at times he played victim and vulnerble! But at the same time!Very out going, love to be seen, charming, nice looking, the helper, arogant, life of the party! Etc... That's when I often got confused because they described a vulnerable covert very isolated and socially awkward, which was not my ex at all! But now that its broken down this way I could totally understand! I was dealing with a Grandious, Vulnerable, Covert Narcissist! Which in my opinion is the worst combination of all forms! Thank you Dr. Ramani for this clarification

[@craigmerkey8518]

From what I have observed and experienced it has to be difficult moving around in the world with a 12 year old development and adult responsibilities !

[@kasey5973]

I never understood my cousin who I grew up with like a sister. I loved her and always wanted us to be close. Took me decades to understand why I allowed myself to be treated so poorly. I understand now she is a vulnerable Narc....understanding is freeing.

[@krystalMtn]

OMG! So glad to finally hear someone make the distinction between the two and not lump them together as the same personality. And since coverts won't acknowledg or communicate any of their own issues, characteristics, or areas needing improvements they will instantly deny anything you might have observed and communicated to them. They will refuse to give your words any place or value.

[@vaultsmeller]

Wow, I was raised by my mother that has NPD. This was very informative and loved the distinction! Thank you for sharing !

[@davidbautista7572]

Such important detail. The grey areas are constantly dizzying but hearing it’s ok to see someone slip in and out from grandiose to vulnerable and even overt to suddenly letting us see a tiny bit of their covert usually hidden stuff helps me not feel nuts. Haha. Thanks Doc. 💪🏼💙

[@boredpandacafe]

I just finished your book "Don't You Know Who I Am?". It brought validation and yet tears at the same time... amazing book and information. *Edit* Can you do a video on what is reactive abuse. I'm a bit confused.

[@user-oy4vu3ck3u]

Do you have a link?

[@caligirl1002]

@@user-oy4vu3ck3u You can find it on Amazon, or eBay.

[@LOKI77able]

I read it too! Her previous book "Should I stay or should I go?" is even more informative and more comprehensive

[@yukio_saito]

​@@user-oy4vu3ck3u You can find it at any online store. The doctor talks about why she wrote the book in this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4qzgnmigaycjqs

[@katalinmcewan]

Loved that book too! I have both of her books on NPD. Reactive abuse is when you keep taking and taking all the abuse, often done very covertly, from the narc and finally you blow up and then they will accuse you of being abusive, crazy or having mental health issues. You are wondering what’s going on as you have never acted like that before. There are YT videos on this that explain it better.

[@larasudomlak7128]

Oh dear...just when you thought you comprehended insane behaviour...it gets more complex! 😱😊

[@Dynamic_heart]

I have had these questions in my thoughts. Thank you for making this clear. My husband's behavior over the past few years has flipped to more of a depression, yet I could recognize his narcissistic behavior. This brings the package together, and it becomes clear about the dynamics of a Narcissist. Thank you.

[@musicman4life]

This is brilliant, as always, Doc. Also, because so many of us in the survivor community are also Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACA)/Dysfunctional Families, we can struggle with some black and white thinking. We yearn to sort of clean it all up and get everything in the right box. This is such a good example of how nuanced and varied these issues are in actuality.

[@lulumoon6942]

Please, what are ADA's?

[@musicman4life]

@@lulumoon6942 Thank you so much because that was a typo and because you voiced in I was able to correct it. Oopse! What I should have written was (Adult Children of Alcoholics (ACA)/Dysfunctional Families)

[@lulumoon6942]

@@musicman4life gotcha, thanks, as a fellow ACA (thank goodness for the literature on this, big tools in my emotional healing!)

[@musicman4life]

@@lulumoon6942 She's the best! I wish I was able to attend her workshop today. I have a side thing I do as a life passion to educate, support and empower us abuse survivors where I create and curate content. I regularly post Dr. Ramani's videos and make my own inspirational memes. It's fairly new and small but it's a sweet, growing group if you'd like to check it out. Facebook.com/thenarcninja @thenarcninja. God bless and may we all continue to be restored through healing.

[@nadiayau3906]

Hear that kinda in some ways ye for some reason

[@brandoncurbow4752]

I think I am a covert vulnerable narcissist. I was raised by narcissistic parents. I don't like being or feeling this way. You're right, feel totally worthless and empty inside. Like I'm not good for anything. The only problem is I don't like being this way. I have several triggers, I don't like it when people tell me things that I already know because it makes me feel stupid. I know it sounds completely ridiculous. When I was growing up if I would get a bad grade on my report card my dad would call me stupid. So now, even though I know I'm not stupid I still have a complex when I feel like someone is belittling my intelligence. The worst thing is being constantly reminded about things that I haven't forgotten. My wife loves to do this day in and day out and it drives me bonkers. Anyway, I don't like feeling worthless, and I know that I'm not, but having grown up with narcissistic parents I don't know how to stop being so reactive. And I become reactive when someone hits a trigger. And I don't know what that is or when it will be, usually it has to do with me perceiving someone is belittling my intelligence. I've seen a couple of your videos and I know you said narcissist can't change, but just know most of us don't like being or feeling this way. Sometimes when you're smirking when you're talking about narcissists it's kind of hurtful. Regardless of whether you've been hurt in the past by a narcissist, you should be professional and see all people as people whether they have mental illness psychological disorders are not. Especially since you say that narcissism develops at a young age and as children you don't really have much control over that situation. Now, as a forty-two-year-old parents of a four-year-old myself, I'm terrified to ever treat my child the way that I was treated by my father and mother. I lean to the side of being overprotective because I don't want my son being hurt like I was when I was little. And I watched another video of yours that said that can create a narcissistic child just the same. So where do you draw the line? Can't give too much praise can't give too much criticism and has to be right down the middle. My son knows that I love him unconditionally I don't say things like I love you if.... fill in the blank. I think that my wife has covert grandiose narcissistic Tendencies and that sort of makes us a bad match. She is constantly subtly seeking validation for things that she's done for me. If she bought me a shirt 10 years ago and I wear it she doesn't let me forget where I got it from. I don't know, maybe that's the Overton this as opposed to covert. She's very passive-aggressive and continuously takes Jabs all day long. Very subtle just to hit my buttons. And the fact that I'm a covert vulnerable narcissist makes me sensitive to every single little jab that she throws at me. Maybe it could be my perception, seeing the world in too much of a negative light, or maybe she's really just trying to push my buttons. It sure seems that way. Anyway, my situation is a mess. And my son is such a sweet little boy, and I don't want him screwed up like I am

[@jessicawood800]

Can I just say I really relate to you! I'm terrified that I'm going to create the same with my children, especially as Ive always felt that the destruction of mine and my mother's relationship was my fault but I couldn't really tell you how. I know I wasn't a bad kid. But I know my mum had such a rough childhood but it hurts me even more that she's basically gone through the same thing but is happy to let me go and focus on my brother. It's been over 10 years now since I moved states to start afresh and it's been a really long self journey. I believe I have narcissistic tendencies but I think the fact that we can vocalise it and want to have empathy for our children means we are on the right track. I know my mum wanted a super close bond with me and it breaks my heart but she never once validated my feelings or acknowledged any wrongdoing. Even now that I'm an adult with my own children, I should be able to go to mum and say that I understand now and get her insight to help guide me but instead I'm trying to figure it all out myself without projecting it onto my kids and to be honest I'm scared I've shaped my eldest into a mini me. I'll never not be there for him though. Maybe thats the difference, putting someone else first and wanting change. Idk. But thank you for your comment, it brings me comfort seeing someone feel the same as me. Sending much love and strength to you and your family. Remember there's always going to be ups and downs on this journey too, good on you for tackling it head on for the sake of your kids! It's not easy to fix our mental health without relationships and children but I'm proud of you for owning it. I'm sure your child loves you regardless too so don't let the past hold you back from healing the future! ❤️

[@nicolabrittain3101]

my sister is vulnerable and covert - she has coddled her son. Supported all the things he has said and done even when rude and lacking empathy. He is now overt and grandiose, cruel and obsessed with the way he looks. He is 14. I don't know whether the damage is done.

[@matthewbrown8679]

You are not worthless. You are a child of God, of infinite worth, and unlimited potential. Can you change? Of course you can. The Spirit of God can fill your soul like it's never been filled before, and heal your shattered self worth. Through Christ we can do all things. Search for "Come unto Christ." Then do it. God Speed.

[@amykrumbholz6446]

I have a covert narcissist that lives across the hallway from me. She has lost g her entire supply. And now from what I can see now knows that we know what she is. It’s very quiet over there. She is really dirty. And she’s always jealous. Especially if your disabled. She constantly says how lucky we are to be disabled and have the help from the state. How despicable is that?

[@priscillaayine9614]

Thank you for giving me the language to understand what I have been through. I saw your interview a few days ago with women of impact and I couldn’t stop crying. Now, I just want to protect my children from him because we’re still married.

[@julianbluefeather8491]

I think there's some of this in most people

[@diptitpujari]

Seems like you aren’t feeling well 🙁. Get well soon 🙏🏽 Your videos have helped us a lot. Thank you.

[@ladyloungealot5119]

Doctor Ramani, I have lately had a few funny conversations with a narcissist closely related to me. She once said something so disarming, that it made me realise, the things narcs say without thinking can be quite entertaining to the rest of us. Would you like to make a video about the funny things the narcs say when they don't think? my ex husband used to say about my mum that she 'shot without loading the gun'; I can contribute more. LOL.

[@80islandia]

I really appreciate you sharing clinical research with us, Dr. Ramani. The incorrect use of "covert narcissism" has spread like wildfire.

[@485990]

Truthfully the more and more I watch from you the more I realize how much I want to kick these tendencies. Growing up with a narcissistic mother and mother figures really messes with a growing mind. Be healthy Dr. Ramani I'm fighting my covert tendencies and learning to control my overt reactions while just absorbing this new 'vulnerable' terminology to take into account for curbing a generation of narcissistic traits. To those fighting or dealing with such individuals with these traits or tendencies keep learning and use extreme patience on unweaving the spider web of traits learned and to provide support for those "undoing the vulnerabilities" cast upon them to battle the NPD. I'm trying this on my own as I feel I know my own process and just need the terminology to pinpoint where I need to criticize my own invulnerabilities to crawl my way out of that dark and heavy mindset. Good luck and keep learning and trusting your instincts. I find unconditional love from my dad's moms family really is helping me to heal from the destruction caused from the past to be able to curb my insecurity to slowly build on living that empathic life. My perception is that a narcissist is created after they're completely destroyed mentally and brainwashed emotionally to blindly learn at an energy level where spiritually they will learn toxic principles. Canadian First Nations endured this through the fallout of assimilation. This is how I believe my parents both acquired this mental illness. Be it covert or grandiose. This is my perception on what I've learned on indigenous struggling with narcissistic traits. Hope this helps for any research purposes Dr. Ramani. Have a good day!

[@485990]

It's all over the place but once in a blue moon I'll have this crazy idea to speak what I think and just ramble on about maneuvering my way through my own mind. Trying to figure out how to say stuff without overtly looking for validation and covertly looking for that validation through favors or whatever else narcissists use for supply. Using myself to provide intellectual information is how I find my own validation to be able to spread my perception on what I find useful to share different points of view like in a narrative 3rd person perspective. Laying all my thoughts out and working on becoming as genuine as possible for myself.

[@cynthiabiel7714]

You may have some " traits" because you had to learn the narc language to survive...but a full blown narc does not think they have a problem...they can not introspect...

[@C.Church]

Oops. I've been making this mistake. My dad is grandiose(minor vulnerable), mom is equal parts grandiose & vulnerable. Dad is OVERT full time, mom COVERT in public. But inside the family home they were both wall-to-wall OVERT. And because of the "clipped wings" and my naivete in young adulthood taken advantage of, and then stage III cancer at 33, I have to admit I did go a few years being vulnerable myself, looking back. But I'm fixing that.

[@C.Church]

@Shenise Henderson Thank you, Shenise. It's hard when you look back and see all the times you really did try to seek help but couldn't get anywhere. For cripe's sake, I went for a checkup when I found a tiny pea-size lump, got an ultrasound and was told "You're fiiiiiiine! Go. Go enjoy your life..." And two months later it's the size of a lime and "Oops. Cancer." I tried seeking therapy (PhD and Masters) who never gave me any real feedback except "You were depressed in childhood." Fast forward decades I learn there are cognitive therapies???? Why did neither of my therapists suggest them? And it seems all around me people are getting thorough cancer screenings with a clean bill of health and therapies and.... GRRRR! Oh, I fell into a dark vulnerable hole for a while. Things felt legit futile and I did start blaming others, but I think I blamed the right people. I didn't go around blaming everyone. Anyway... I'm working on it now. :)

[@C.Church]

@Shenise Henderson Wow, Shenise, thank you. No one has ever made me tear up for "seeing me" in a comment before. Thank you. Thank you.

[@dollyherron4857]

This is what's been confusing for me to try to understand. It's like being with a ball of energy where everything is combined. You learn to adapt your language to which ever part of the ball that's coming at you at any given time. It's very exhausting. Btw the grey rock method works. Thank you Dr. Ramani for your insight.

[@DrMegHaworth]

This was very helpful in understanding the complexity of narcissistic personalities. It is clearly multi-layered and it's helpful to know that they can vacillate between covert, overt, vulnerable, and grandiose. It seems to me that the hallmarks include a lack of empathy or understanding for anyone, gaslighting, blame-shifting, scapegoating, and a whole ton of lying and hiding the truth they do not want to see. I have known for many years that my father has undiagnosed NPD. I still unravel the impact of the disease on everyone around him. Now that my mother is incapacitated with dementia, he cannot hide his extreme control and inability to accept the world as it is becoming versus the world as he insists it needs to be. Your videos have been a big help to me both as a clinician and the daughter of a man with NPD. (And then there was my ex-husband too!)

[@janeloraine6231]

So glad you touched on the point that clinicians argue narcissists have all 4 types running, Because I see fragments of each in a few of the narcissists I know well. It was confusing, but now cleared up - thank you! Thank you too, for owning your own misunderstanding of it. You are the quincetential decent, humble human being, and I appreciate you.

[@princesskileyrae]

Based. I'm a narc magnet & was dating one who is extremely grandiose to the extent of operating on a legitimately delusional level of beliefs while simultaneously being made the victim of *EVERY* "system" in place. He got a 3rd DUI & for some reason believes *everyone* involved in his alcohol treatment program has improperly labeled him. I didn't know about the DUI stuff when we met. As more & more came out; I stopped liking him. His behavior changed without my attention, & now almost every time I run into him; he starts sobbing about how much he's learning about himself & how sorry he is for the past & blah blah blah I I I me me me... they never change. Even when society punishes them for unacceptable behavior, it's not their fault. I straight up told the guy (54M) I don't like or respect him anymore. It's not fixable. His not being able to get over me is his problem. I recently got a brutal medical diagnosis & haven't even processed it yet, but the Narc still blows my phone up with pages of "I" statements about all the important things he's doing. Then he flips to vulnerable & injured. I don't have the energy to deal with that person & he both understand that & doesn't care. I'm so glad to see that she covered how much overlap happens. Nothing in science ever fits so neatly into a perfect category.

[@dany8822]

I am just learning about this "vulnerable" and "covert narcissism" in real life! I'm living close to a pair of people consisting of one overt narcissist and one covert/vulnerable narcissism. This framework is helping me sort through some intense gaslighting right now. I am in the process of moving out of these two's lives and it honestly feels like I've been freed. There is ego-demon stuff happening between these two, like a folie-a-deux dynamic.

[@StefanoCirene]

This is by far the best simplified explanation of the covert/overt dynamics of the narcissist. 👏

[@isabelkelly7717]

Off topic, I love that you present yourself with gray hair. You are so genuine and confident. We really do not need all the products that commercials/consumerism has conditioned us/society to believe. You are a beautiful Soul! You have helped me and others so much! Thank you Dr. Ramani❤🌏

[@kristinewaithaka2947]

Very true. I spent 7years of my life trying to understand the covert stuff in my ex narc and all my life trying to understand my narc mom and I can tell you for a fact that I am the one who ended up very badly hurt each time. Dr. Ramani your videos are gold. Thank you.

[@bereal6590]

Oh yes... same here. Vuln narcs will throw you under the bus if their shame is activated

[@msPranksterPixie]

That makes a lot of sense, and really helps me understand the picture better. I was lost on why I was seeing both sets of traits at different times, and this really clarifies. Also, I find it warming, and I trust you more, because you said "Oopsie I got this bit incorrect". I have a tonne of respect for that. Thank you Doctor R and team for making this video.

[@bigred4379]

Yes Shelly.👍🏽 clears it up for me also. Sometimes labels are thrown around so much that terminology gets lost in the confusion . And like you, I SO APPRECIATE Dr Ramani clearing this up for us.❤️🙏🏽

[@notamused3715]

Thank you for this Dr. Ramani. It's helped validate my suspicions about someone, who, seemingly having little to no grandiosity for a long while, I became more and more drained by until I became very ill. I suspect they were a vulnerable narcissist all along and I mistook that for humility, low confidence that needed boosting, and gave and gave emotional and practical support until I was all but depleted. Then, they started devaluing me. I believe now they were building up to discarding me, only I did it first. I really relieved I did and can feel my energy returning and mood lifting in waves, although I still crash and still have days of anxiety and grief. The main difference is now I am concerned about myself and my own wellbeing rather than being consumed with concern, worry and anxiety about THEIR wellbeing! It's like a huge weight is being lifted but there's some injuries from carrying that weight for so long that will take some time to heal. What does haunt me a bit though, is that I never saw them coming! Vulnerable narcissism badly needs to be brought into public awareness, so thanks and God bless to Dr. Ramani and all who work to educate us on this insidious disorder!

[@JS-uk4mn]

I would be very interested in seeing a video on the differences and similarities between narcissism and CPTSD.

[@jordannewham2058]

I feel like I never really understood or dealt with my narcissistic abuse caused by my parents, then boyfriends over 5 years. Your videos have been such a revelation for me, and have helped me to understand myself and the others around me a lot better. Thank you for putting so much good information out there. I can't afford to see a therapist, but at least I can be better educated. :)

[@danielledavidoski4076]

My former partner actually got angry with me once because I was doing too many chores. She never would do anything, just spent all of her time on her phone, not even working. And I was always running around working or doing dishes or cooking etc. and she claimed that the reason she didn’t do anything was because she didn’t feel like she could compete with me. She told me that I was trying to make her look bad basically. She was always so resentful towards me when she thought I was trying to outdo her in anyway.

[@ms.anonymousinformer242]

Your were out of balance in masculinity and she was out of balance in femininity.

[@liliyapetrova8351]

​@@Scybertine oh come on! This was insane and homophobic statement. 👎

[@brigittezigon8106]

This is a classic example of narcissistic behaviour... That you were doing everything, but that was turned against you. It's using you and blaming you for it. A perfect example.

[@infnity_in_trinity6034]

I love the cat jumping on your lap @ the end. =)

[@lisanielsen7213]

This explains so much. I was nearly destroyed in my early 20's by a relationship with a young man who seemed to flip from vulnerable to grandiose. I could never figure out where that sweet, pitiful boy went.

[@emilym.2830]

There was a debate on Reddit that Covert narcissists know they are narcissistic but consciously hide it, but that directly goes against one of thr key parts of narcissism, which is a lack of self awareness. I would like a video talking about this.

[@cannonballlight4939]

Being unaware is not a part of narcissism. Ppl with pds are likely to lack insight to their own behaviour but for some it is more obvious.

[@teal1010]

When they "gaslight" you, they know it! They don't "care"!

[@linros187]

I have nothing but love and gratitude for you Dr Ramani. The world is a way better place for you being in it, your contribution to our health and well being is immeasurable. Your work and videos have been life changing for me.I 100% agree that Narcissism is the issue of our time (sadly) Once you have educated yourself on this subject you start becoming aware of this fact. I have been deeply impacted by Narcissism, as a scapegoated Highly Sensitive person from a family with a Narcissistic parent, and then subsequent relationships and friendships. All I can say is thank you from the bottom of my heart!

[@anak5183]

I have found that listening is the key to understanding the covert side because, in my experience, they always give a lot of clues to what is driving them. I ask them to tell me their story then I ask questions to draw out motivations. Almost all will be shocked at the things they feel comfortable revealing to me.

[@irenenielsen427]

TY for this Gem :) As I listened, I could see all 4 examples in my ex. and myself at times.

[@katlyons7838]

I am new to this narcissist theory and this was an extremely helpful video. I am at the "trying to make sense of what he did to me" stage, and this shifted me forward some in my journey. Thank you!

[@imnotu00]

What a wonderfully clear and simple explanation. It doesn’t seem so hard once explained by a naturally gifted teacher. Thank You

[@queenolivia2406]

Thank you so much for explaining this. I can now see that the guy I was recently seeing was an overt vulnerable and covert grandiose narcissist.... the complete opposite of my ex husband who was overt grandiose and covert vulnerable. I mistook these seemingly opposite characteristics for this guy being “different” to my ex and therefore good (he seemed so sensitive and empathetic at first), which left me feeling confused when his actions didn’t match his words. I understand now. Also please take a day off! We can all wait

[@2000saipu]

I know a covert narcissist who can be charming and caring in superficial relationships, grandiose at times, hiding his shyness and insecurity as disinterest and aloofness

[@moniquejackson7741]

You are a Capable instructor, Dr. Ramani. I would love to be a student in one of your classrooms. I think I got it. :)

[@CClausen85]

Freaking love it! This is the same kind of complexity that arose out of Myers Briggs personality test work, once they identify introvert versus extrovert, and intuitive vs sensing, that now you've got so many combinations the model loses its simplicity. As someone who has been studying this vigorously in an attempt to heal from it, I've been vocalizing and journaling all my thoughts and motivations to see where the needs for grandiosity and validation come from, all while trying to reprogram the inner belief that I don't *need* anything, I'm whole, human, and I don't need a good reason to feel good about myself.

[@pointsettaqueen]

After listening to your videos, it gave me the courage to tell my grown son. He has accused me of making it all up because my mother was very much a better grandmother than she was a mother. He has only shown me anger and dismissed my experiences. I am crushed. He only saw her as loving and giving., and believes none of what my experiences were. My heart is broken.

[@rickyz89]

I feel Dr. Ramani is absolutely the best source for accurate analysis....the issue with all psychology is communication of internal behaviours that don't pass through a language in our brain. I feel that we are missing the chance to really understand that there are so many traits of people, intro, extro, stubborn etc...and narcissism is something different altogether: it's an ego pattern that shows depending on all other traits.... We shall strip the narcissism word from all other meaning that we attribute to other tendencies...and the bone is an addictive blower up sense of self importance (with the word "importance" not being accurate, as I believe it's connected to our survival instincts and many times is invisible to the individual)