CPS admit Lucy Letby evidence was wrong. But will it make any difference?

Does admittedly flawed evidence get you an appeal?
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[@SimonDover]

I have been saying this since the very beginning. This whole thing stinks.

[@phd-1c]

saying what? He has just explained that she had an amazing defence team, and they chose to run with their arguments. And failed, because the circumstantial evidence was so strong. Please see the full court transcripts and narration by crime scene court room 2, who was present at the whole of the first trial. Yes, her defence team will probably try to appeal on this, and rightly so. The system always needs challenging :)

[@SimonDover]

@@phd-1c Lucy Letby was convicted primarily on the evidence of her colleagues who testified that the deaths were unexplained, and their feeling was that Letby was involved. This was backed up by the door card evidence. Now debunked. And Lucy's own feelings of remorse and guilt over the deaths of babies in her care, and her colleagues attitude towards her, viewed from the perspective of the accumulation of other evidence. Feelings seen commonly in maternity ward nurses over patients deaths. Many experts have suggested the deaths bear the pattern more of incompetence and neglect by hospital staff, rather than murder. The very staff that accuse Letby. I have absolutely no idea what happened in that maternity ward, but I say again. The whole thing stinks to high heaven and requires a thorough independent inquiry.

[@normankennith7919]

like the sewage leak in the neo natal unit! a revelation that has been hushed up because it proved lucy was not responsible for the babies deaths!!

[@paulsmith982]

You have to wonder what else the CPS got wrong in that case, if anything.

[@bradleyday5829]

Well we could start with the basics first, like the dodgy attendance chart which proved nothing more than working alot of shifts

[@deliciouslyk3437]

@@bradleyday5829 from experience nurses are often asked to cover staff shortages but as soon as something happens they're accused of being overworked and banned from doing overtime. Seen it happen. Another thing I heard daily rosters are now computerised so anyone can alter them.

[@Locutus]

Believe it or not, CPS is not perfect. They will always make mistakes. Sometimes people will be wrongly convicted. It's a rare occurrence that this happens, but to pretend it doesn't happen and therefore you have to question every decision they make as faulty, is faulty logic. Indeed it's not right it happens and when it does happen, those responsible should be held to account.

[@tonyedwards9441]

The missing point is that at the retrial the Jury already knew that she had been convicted of multiple murders. To pretend that this was not a factor would be to totally ignore human nature.

[@handpaper6871]

It's worse; they were explicitly told that they could consider the previous convictions.

[@kathy6545]

@@handpaper6871Yes, that was disgusting on the part of the judge.

[@SloverOfTeuth]

@@tonyedwards9441 What was the alternative: to find 12 people who were unaware of her conviction? Maybe from an old people's home?

[@davinacleal7716]

So what she killed those babies beforehand! It’s not the cps fault that baby k needed justice! And justice was served for that child!

[@Tommcdonald818]

@@tonyedwards9441 They should have been told to consider only the evidence heard at the re-trial.If it was to be decided on what went on at the first trial then what was the point of the re-trial?

[@barrieshepherd7694]

The fact that the CPS can get things wrong is one of the best arguments against the death penalty that there is.

[@anonymes2884]

That depends on how you weigh convicting the innocent against executing the guilty I suppose. (personally I don't disagree with you FWIW, it's just that pro death penalty people can and do contend that tragic as it is, the occasional mistake is outweighed by the benefits as they see them. They'd have to right ? Because obviously the claim that _any_ system designed and run by people _never_ makes a mistake is utterly idiotic, which means if you're pro death penalty you _must_ be willing to accept _some_ number of mistakes)

[@paulrichards6894]

@@anonymes2884 the occasional mistake says its not worth it

[@annecunningham1151]

I worked with someone whose husband was Governor of a high security prison. He was very anti the death penalty. If you get it wrong and kill an innocent person that’s murder.

[@dh2032]

They don't admit any mistakes, all have metathoraly and literally too,

[@archieblair8728]

No so. When we had the death penalty, jury verdicts had to be unanimous to convict. (now it is a simple majority). But getting it wrong is not an argument either. Governments send people to their deaths all the time. Usually very young working class men. Ask Tony Blair.

[@Foxy64]

I found it disturbing that someone can be given 15 whole life terms without one single shred of physical evidence , all circumstantial , and they couldnt find one single person , past or present , that had a bad word to say about her

[@davewalkden7248]

I suspect that the written confession may have played its part in the verdict...

[@DepakoteMeister]

@@davewalkden7248 Written confession? When?

[@davewalkden7248]

@@DepakoteMeister Her diary.

[@DepakoteMeister]

@@davewalkden7248 You mean were she wrote down what the police accused her of? Hardly a confession.

[@Tommcdonald818]

@@DepakoteMeister A "confession" that states "I haven't done anything wrong." Must be unique.

[@deliciouslyk3437]

I feel that nurses often take the can for medical mistakes.

[@RhiannonRaven]

and parents wrongly convicted of non accidental injury of their children. Imagine something goes wrong in a difficult birth and the doctors are at fault. Do we really believe the doctors would hold their hands up and lose their reputations and professional career when they can just blame it on the semi literate parents? Police and social services would not question the medical opinion in such a scenario.

[@amasworld7126]

they are usually involved in the coverup, hence letbys guilty conscience despite being not guilty of murder..

[@amasworld7126]

@@RhiannonRaven this is what happened to us - Adaora Maduako - our story is in the news you can google it

[@jonjones6583]

surely you don’t expect any doctors to be responsible? Nurses are not as clever as doctors, therefore nurses should be held responsible!

[@deliciouslyk3437]

@@jonjones6583 if nurses were stupid they'd be taking the can for every mistake the medics make. Nursing is the only profession where protocols pass responsibility for problems caused by over administration of medication from the medics to the nurse.

[@99xstallerthanmost]

I really cannot believe that her defense counsel were competent!

[@DepakoteMeister]

Really? They mentioned the statistics were wrong? They mentioned that the toxicolology reports clearly stated they could not be used for suspected insulin poisining cases?

[@joforrest1]

She was a scapegoat for an incompetent NHS ... I worked in the NHS for over 20 years as an RGN it is a very toxic place

[@joforrest1]

@Simply_Me100 Of course it can, I left because I was sickened by what I was seeing, clearly it doesn't bother you

[@joforrest1]

​@Simply_Me100Yeah what ever, clearly you are adamant you are right and want the last word, feel free, I have better things to do with my time.. You know how the saying goes 'never argue with stupid people as they will bring you down to their level and then beat you with experience' So I am out as it sounds to me like after 30 years in the NHS you are probably part of the problem .. Over 20 years in the NHS does not show a lack of commitment... What a ridiculous thing to say ... Ciao

[@Zaquria]

@Simply_Me100 You have just proven her point.

[@SteveJones-gz4vd]

Yet you took the wages and said nothing at the time ??

[@Mikados_Advark12]

Don’t be so silly

[@Matty12333]

This is one of those cases where you don't know for sure if she is guilty or not guilty. I think the evidence needs to be looked at again

[@alexbowman7582]

Ever heard the term “beyond all reasonable doubt”?

[@notcrediblesolipsism3851]

And what about _miscarriage of justice?_ Like OP i don't know for sure abd I'm pretty sure you don't either.

[@bugsy742]

@@alexbowman7582😂 you act like no one has ever been wrongfully convicted! 😅 1336 convicted people in 2019 in the U.K. alone had their convictions overturned!

[@ruthbashford3176]

I am convinced Lucy Letby is innocent. The babies Lucy was supposed to have murdered had post mortems and were found to have died from natural causes. Unless you prefer to believe a long retired, discredited paediatrician who fantasized about air embolism and insulin poisoning.

[@deepzepp4176]

@@bugsy742Where did you find that stat? Genuinely interested.

[@KeithCambs]

It's worth reading two special reports in recent editions of Private Eye as to why this might be an unsafe conviction.

[@momeara7482]

And the letter which challenges the omissions in the Eye's reporting.

[@ruthbashford3176]

@@momeara7482 Where can I find that letter?

[@wingnut71]

"Beyond reasonable doubt". Somehow i dont think this conviction meets that requirement really.

[@user-sf7kl9uh7k]

The deaths stopped once she was removed from the unit.

[@wingnut71]

@@user-sf7kl9uh7k Are you saying no baby has died in that unit since she left? I find that hard to believe. If they suspected her they should have made an effort to get some indisputable evidence using hidden cameras. Or by making her the only person who had access. From what I understand this was not done. Even if the deaths have stopped it could still have been another person who has halted their activity just because of all the publicity. The point is, the evidence is circumstantial only. You are not supposed to lock people up for life based solely on this type of evidence. It's supposed to be the beyond reasonable doubt standard and that is not what was applied in this case.

[@MichaelJay-rr2vz]

​Guilty as sin @@user-sf7kl9uh7k

[@eddiefurey]

No they didn't, have you watched the documenr?

[@wingnut71]

@@eddiefurey No, I haven't. Just going from what information i caught on the news etc.

[@davidpearson243]

My wife (NHS nurse for 38 years) and myself are very uncomfortable about this conviction I’m not a conspiracy theorist not a fan of Peter Hithin,David Davis or Nadine Dorris but when Dr Philip Hammond thinks there is something wrong with I’m worried !!!!!!

[@Leon-lt5gv]

@@davidpearson243 they will say anything to earn money on social media ' no matter how stupid

[@mickkidston7344]

tell me you're a fan of mad nad and like people that kill babies without telling me you're a fan of mad nad and like people killing babies , success

[@amasworld7126]

You cant work for the NHS for 38 years and be a righteous person.

[@deepzepp4176]

You don’t have to be a conspiracy theorist - whatever that actually is - to like Peter Hitchens.

[@Stephen-lx9nm]

Nhs is a joke

[@russelsellick316]

She's been framed.

[@seanharvey8051]

Yes. I'm moving from 'she has been thrown under the bus' to 'evidence has been manipulated to frame her'

[@Mikados_Advark12]

Rubbish

[@paulgibbons2320]

I hope the truth is made clear for this woman. If it is dark or light. An injustice like this would be unbearable. Let us know beyond doubt and human falibility.

[@jonahlloyd3149]

If Ms Letby got a "very good defense team" I would hate to see a mediocre or poor defense team!

[@ScruffyTubbles]

Until you are involved you won't be aware of how bad the system now is. In particular 'franchising' has led to siphoning off of cash to build empires and back offices.

[@NapoleonGelignite]

A conviction based purely on statistics is always going to be unsafe.

[@magenta6754]

especially cherry picked ones

[@SloverOfTeuth]

Fortunately it wasn't based purely on statistics. And if the statistics were faulty, why didn't the defence challenge them?

[@bugsy742]

@@SloverOfTeuthconsidering you lambast anyone who feels something has gone wrong somewhere it seems like you have a personal problem with Letby - did you watch the video at all, in any way whatsoever? 😅

[@ruthbashford3176]

@@SloverOfTeuth No it wasn't based purely on statistics, it was based on some very dodgy medical evidence which has been so thoroughly discredited its almost as if Evans plucked it out of the air.

[@EbenBransome]

Not necessarily, but in cases like this the statistics need to be held to the standard of proof that NICE would apply to a drug trial. And all too frequently NICE discover that the trials show that the drug is ineffective but the statistics were cherry picked. Lawyers in particular do not understand statistics, and nor do physicians. They are not part of the training. They don't have the several years necessary to get a degree or its equivalent.

[@swanseamale47]

I think the problem here is there's doubt. Justice has to be seen to be done. As it stands, we can't be sure a miscarriage of justice hasn't happened. While there's doubt it should air on the side of caution.

[@manoo422]

The 'establishment' dont like admitting their mistakes...

[@nighttrain1236]

Perhaps there is only doubt for people who don't understand statistics?

[@buzzer4626]

Err

[@LPCLASSICAL]

get a campaign going then - her appeals have been denied and she was also found guilty in the latest trials.

[@manoo422]

@@nighttrain1236 ...and you think its reasonable that someone goes to jail for life based on 'statistics' without EVIDENCE!!......There's something wrong with you!!!

[@telx4u]

I have always had my doubts about this conviction in this case…

[@gizmo5601]

Before reading about the material flaws in the evidence I too had my doubts. It didn’t really make sense that this young nurse would do this. Between this case and many others eg subpostmasters I’ve lost my confidence in British justice. Hearing evidence from several of the KC barristers and solicitors in the Horizon enquiry was very unsettling. From grossly incompetent, to full of their self importance or outright evil in their bias to guilt without sufficient evidence. Justice, truth and presumption of innocence appeared to be completely alien concepts.

[@castlerock58]

@@gizmo5601 Normally, once you identify a serial killer and investigate them, it turns out that there life is abnormal. She seems to be a normal young woman from a loving family. The female serial killers, that have been identified, are not like that.

[@davidkruyer8048]

Lucy letby was a scapegoat goat to cover the hospitals failings

[@terrydonegan1622]

Yes absolutely

[@Redwarfa]

Which failings are those?

[@reklaw3603]

nice place to ponder over the mistrial of not guilty Lucy Letby. I am sure the trial was a complete farce, pinning the blame on the lesser of the workforce.

[@king77703]

Isn't that how it normally works?

[@reklaw3603]

@@king77703 it sure is, pity we let them walk over us. a real pity!

[@johnkeating4221]

I think the case for Lucy Letby's innocence involves far more than a door swipe, which of itself was used to sway the jury. If all these babies died in suspicious circumstances what was the hospital management doing all that time. Maybe the root of the problem lies with the hospital not Lucy Letby.

[@user-gm4bn7ql6u]

There was no evidence, just statistical analysis that was unproven, a very unsafe verdict!

[@user-gm4bn7ql6u]

@Simply_Me100 circumstantial evidence is a matter of unproven opinion, where as empirical evidence is based on proven fact ….here’s my bet, the case against Letby will be found to be unproven, there is already evidence coming out that shows there were issues in the ward itself that could have proven to be life threatening to critically ill babies

[@julianchamberlain5399]

​@@user-gm4bn7ql6umany of the victims were not critically ill until Letby came to work. She is clearly guilty.

[@ruthbashford3176]

@@julianchamberlain5399 The babies were in a neonatal unit, of course they were ill. And six of the babies Lucy was supposed to have murdered had post mortems and were found to have died from natural causes. One baby that didn't have a pm died from sepsis. Hardly surprising babies had sepsis considering raw sewage was leaking into the unit on a regular basis. And the care given to those babies was sub optimal.

[@user-gm4bn7ql6u]

@@julianchamberlain5399 I’ll treat your ridiculous statement with the contempt it deserves

[@julianchamberlain5399]

@@ruthbashford3176 None of what you say is true. Spreading lies like Alex Jones did.

[@Simon-zb6fp]

I am disturbed that only one witness had the courage to appear in Lucy Letby's defence and by contrast the prosecution had dozens of witnesses appearing for them over several months of the trial. I may be mistaken but it appeared to be a rather one sided trial.

[@cupofteawithpoetry]

I think at least one other witness was not called... The trial was so weighted towards the prosecution wasn't it.

[@Arcticnick]

I am concerned there may have been a conspiracy to implicate Lucy Letby. I did not follow the case but did hear a counter argument recently which I think sounds rather compelling. And certainly worthy of investigation.

[@DepakoteMeister]

@@Simon-zb6fp If you worked in the NHS and came to her defence, you'd lose your job one way or another.

[@russelsellick316]

Very one sided.

[@HoratioBlogs]

Scapegoat

[@TheBaron481]

An absolute disgrace of British/English justice.

[@michaelsrowland]

What do you expect?

[@janedoh123]

Cheaper for a murder trial than a malpractice case and medical negligence multiple cases

[@notenough1484]

0:25 I miss going out for walks like that. Thank you for the view. It’s much needed. Sylvia

[@KhruC]

The best comment so far!

[@thetruthwillwinoneday]

A lot of what the CPS does is questionable, especially lately.

[@helenporter7584]

Having read an enormous amount of material, I am of the humble opinion that poor Lucy was set up. It used to be innocent until proven guilty. Not anymore.

[@paulrichards6894]

not according to this guy....he seems completely convinced of her guilt..... I don't think he has read anything against that assumption

[@legion162]

@@helenporter7584 but she has been proven guilty, and until such a time as she's been cleared then she's still guilty

[@helenporter7584]

@@paulrichards6894 I’m not sure what he’s read, but probably has to tread carefully. Remember people are sacked for speaking out. (E.g. Covid truth telling doctors).

[@helenporter7584]

@@paulrichards6894 he asked us all what we think!

[@ruthbashford3176]

@@paulrichards6894 He's just ignorant of the facts in the case, bet he still thinks babies were poisoned with insulin.

[@R6AAO]

If she has evidence that suggests she wasn't the only trustee then it must be heard in court. The fact our judiciary can convict based on circumstantial evidence is doubtful because it's not hard to get a stupid jury.

[@StuartGilham]

There's more to it than you are suggesting but I'm not sure how admissible it will be. Part of her defense in the original trial was that she was used as a scapegoat for the consultant's incompetence. Little evidence of that was explained in the first trial due to the lack of medical experts for the defense. By the second trial the accusing consultant had changed his story three times. In the first trial he said he had a "precise memory" of looking at his watch "emblazoned" in his mind and "etched in my memories and nightmares forever" timing the "attack" at 03:50. The prosecution changed the time of the attack to 03:45 by the second trial to coincide with keycard data. The retrial weighed heavily on the "bad character" evidence from the first trial of being a serial killer. If the first jury had seen the chops and changes in the story of the consultant they might have seen bad character from him.

[@paulrichards6894]

i have a feeling she will be exonerated but sadly for her probably 10 years down the line

[@petersutton523]

Evidence of a seriously leaky drainage system immediately above the room where the children were was also withheld or ignored. The trial judge is massively complicit in this travesty and he must be investigated and, if proved culpable, arrested, or at the very least, removed from the bench.

[@petersutton523]

Evidence of a seriously leaky drainage system immediately above the room where the children were was also withheld or ignored. The trial judge is massively complicit in this travesty and he must be investigated and, if proved culpable, arrested, or at the very least, removed from the bench.

[@StuartGilham]

@@petersutton523 The judge has retired along with the consultant Dr Gibbs who was shown in the trial to have left baby G in a trolley after a difficult procedure which may have contributed to her developing brain damage. I think it will be easier for some who have retired to escape a backlash over this.

[@paulrichards6894]

@@petersutton523 Michael Stone has been in prison for 26 years for a crime no one thinks he did so getting justice is not easy...in his case the evidence is awful.....2 bits of evidence that convicted him..........firstly a tourniquet found near the crime scene with no DNA linking it to stone....stone was, however, a drug addict and a supposed confession given by stone through a pipe between 2 cells by a man who was later convicted of murder..he lived 40 miles away and police know the times he was seen in his home town.....the window of opportunity was such someone worked out even a F1 driver couldn't have got there done the crime and got back in that time............yet he languishes in prison despite a certain levi belfield having confessed to the crime............

[@martinmessiah7130]

Jury’s will always go with the emotive choice there is no qualification or process for 12 juries that are battling with their own dysfunctional life.

[@johnsykes9623]

What a sad story this is. A lot of babies died, this is a tragedy.. As a dad, I can't imagine the trauma the loving parents went through. I remember thinking when this case first kicked off, I really hope the TRUTH comes out. What could by worse for the grieving parents than to convict a loving nurse also. Much blessings to all.

[@russelsellick316]

Some children had died at the time and these were ignored....why? All very very circumstantial.

[@ruthbashford3176]

@@russelsellick316 They were not included on the spreadsheet which has been debunked by eminent statisticians from The Royal Statistical Society.

[@johnenglish929]

They died, but not a single post mortem found EVIDENCE of murder. The post mortems raised no suspicions. There is NO EVIDENCE that a crime has been committed.

[@ruthbashford3176]

@@johnenglish929 We appear to have been asked to accept that the post mortem findings should be disregarded and replaced by interpretations of radiographs by individuals who had no involvement in the post mortems.

[@johnenglish929]

@@ruthbashford3176 Do you know if there were coroner’s inquests into any of these deaths (or into any of the other deaths at the hospital which occurred when she wasn’t on duty) ?

[@PedrSion]

The judge at the second trial kept telling the jury that because she was a convicted murderer it was highly likely that she was guilty. Shouldn’t the jury, in a case of this complexity, been made up of medical professionals ?

[@LPCLASSICAL]

yes if she had a proven propensity to kill - this could be taken into account by the jurors as evidence against her. But there was much more to the second trial than that.

[@Must_not_say_that]

That is an admission that the court system is not firt for purpose. The whole thing stinks to High Heaven. So you think the reputatkion of lawyers is more important than a life in prison? Such smart people. Let's not do all we can for the defendant, we have our reputation to consider. Such an excellent defence team, yeah. At the same level as the CPS.

[@joeobyrne9348]

"Don't attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence". Now that may be too harsh, but it's entirely possible that the defence team didn't understand the rebuttals to the "expert witnesses" or the prosecution and so didn't think a jury would either. I have no doubt they tried hard, but I just have this nagging feeling that they made decisions based on factors that work more in more normal trials.

[@SloverOfTeuth]

Human mistakes are a reality - the presence of one doesn't mean the court system isn't fit for purpose.

[@Must_not_say_that]

@@joeobyrne9348 You may indeed be right and that is entirely possible, thank you, but that simply shows they were a poor defence team and let Letby down badly. Such flawed evidence, that possibly could amount to trying to pervert the course of Justice, should certainly have been robustly challenged. No system is perfect but British justice once was admirable but now is repugnant.

[@russelsellick316]

In my opinion she was railroaded.

[@russelsellick316]

​@@SloverOfTeuth depends on who you are in two tier Starmer land...right?

[@stephendavies2925]

There needs to be a re-trial! There are serious questions that need to be examined

[@jopiez1]

@Simply_Me100a lot of

[@lulabellegnostic8402]

As a retired hospital Dr, i believed LL was innocent from the get go. I have seen so much covering up of malpractice by Drs who were in the pocket of managers or who had friends who were. If you stand up and question they turn on you. Even the GMC operate a quota system: the overwhelming number of upheld complaints they receive involve non white Drs, the majority of whom obtained their ‘degree’ overseas. The GMC’s DEI contribution is to go after white Drs to address the imbalance for their stats.They never go back and review their system of checking their method of validating academic and professional qualification as a root cause of ‘professional misconduct’.

[@lennymice2261]

If I may ask your professional opinion on something, what could have caused the sudden increased heart rate and simultaneous dramatic drop in blood glucose levels in baby F?

[@lulabellegnostic8402]

@@lennymice2261 prems and neonates are incredibly fragile metabolically. Any insult can trigger hypoglycaemia, tachycardia is a response to anything- a voice, a sound, a light because the startle response has not adapted.

[@lennymice2261]

@@lulabellegnostic8402 Ahh ok. So there was nothing particularly unusual about him suddenly getting both. It's been painted by some as if that was very surprising and rare. Thank you. Is there any reason why taking him off the feed bag and there being a return to normal glucose levels shortly afterwards might have any kind of causal relationship, or is it likely just a coincidental correlation?

[@malicant123]

If it transpires that this is a mistrial or that Letby is actually innocent then there must be serious consequences for those who messed up in the proceedings. I'm not talking about "lessons learned"; I mean firings, loss of pension and perhaps even criminal charges for incompetence.

[@Happyheretic2308]

Damn right.

[@StephenBoothUK]

I do wonder, not just about this case, if there is a possibility ever of argument for it not being possible for someone to get a fair trial as salacious coverage of the accusations against them mean that any potential jury would have to exercise inhuman mental gymnastics to restrict themselves to only the evidence presented and not be influenced by what they may have seen or heard, if only subconsciously.

[@chrisw706]

We all understand the legal loopholes involved in overturning a conviction. However this is being looked into by a former cabinet minister and a doctor with a track record of investigating wrongful convictions. Add to this that we have reached a point where most of the individual pieces of evidence have now been shown to lack credibility and therefore the combined evidence no longer holds any weight. Regarding the so called strong defence, expert witnesses simply won't come forward to defend against charges of child abuse unless you can afford to pay a high fee to employ them from overseas. Legal aid wouldn't cover this while Letby's barrister may have a good reputation he didn't have the expertise behind him to pull apart the questionable scientific, statistical and psychological evidence put forward by the prosecution.

[@davidcarradice2866]

I think that this case will turn out to be the biggest injustice case in British history. It will take time, possibly years.

[@alisonb7882]

I agree, it’s all a matter of time

[@martinmessiah7130]

Bigger than the post office.

[@user-be2il8wu6s]

Have you read up on the Michael Stone case; the Chillenden murders? Another case that needs more public scrutiny imo.

[@user-yr5kl1iw3t]

I have always been uncomfortable about this conviction I’m not saying she is not guilty but a conviction must be based on fact evidence based this conviction was not

[@willowtree9291]

Absolutely. The evidence was circumstantial, and there were plenty of deaths on days when she was not on duty.

[@paulrichards6894]

i wouldnt fall off my chair if I found out she was guilty but there is surely not enough evidence to be sure

[@phill6859]

​@@willowtree9291most people are convicted on circumstantial evidence

[@yellard6785]

​@@paulrichards6894 I am inclined to that she was innocent but I would have to see all the evidence... And that dosent mean just sitting through the trial (s)... The UK legal system is both defence and prosecution hide stuff.. Thars because the object is not the truth but to win..However once one has taken that path there is no going back..

[@paulrichards6894]

@@yellard6785 i think there is a fair amount of doubt

[@duncanmiller3067]

I never thought she was responsible for this.

[@ruthbashford3176]

Ben Myers should have asked Dr Jayaram if he would have gone to the police if Letby had not filed a complaint for bullying which was upheld?

[@user-nq1vs4ss9x]

The UK does a great job of protecting public confidence in the system - as the system as the Birmingham Six discovered.

[@peterb2272]

CPS mis-labelled evidence put into the court at trial. Whaaaaaat? But, but, but... that's not possible. Right? Actually not news to me. My brother was accused of beating his wife. He said it was her assaulting him, but guess who the police and CPS believed? So he was arrested, charged, thrown out of his house with the clothes he stood up in and not allowed to see his kids. A year later came the trial with a lurid story from the wife of the assault she endured of being beaten nearly unconscious. The CPS presented their killer evidence, pictures of her injuries inflicted by him. Except, as my brother pointed out, they were pictures of his injuries on his back inflicted by her. Between the police taking the pictures and the CPS presenting them at trial, they had somehow been "mis-labelled". 🙄. The pictures of the injuries and their location proved that his story of being the victim of assault by her was true, and her story of being beaten almost senseless by him was a load of fabricated tosh. Strangely enough the Judge's deliberation and not guilty verdict was so fast we didn't get time to buy a coffee let alone drink it. An arrest, handcuffs, charged, jail, bail, thrown out of his house, forbidden from seeing his children for a year and a trial. All because the police had "believed the victim" (i.e. the woman), despite the only evidence of any assault being an injury on him, and the CPS mislabelling the evidence. She still tells everyone who she thinks will sympathise that he got found not guilty due to a "loophole in the law".

[@Princess_Schala]

His fault for getting married.

[@silviafarfan2523]

@@Princess_Schala that's a b0llocks remark. We might as well blame every victim of every wrong doing for simply living and breathing.

[@AniWatX]

Poor man. How do you recover from that ? Sure it must take a long time. Was she charged with assault ? Think I know what you’re going to say . Best wishes and hoping your brother is in a much better place now.

[@peterb2272]

@@AniWatX Charged with assault? Ha ha ha. After the evidence came to light in court, he went back to the police. They wouldn't even look into it because it "wasn't in the public interest".

[@AniWatX]

@@peterb2272 Talk about double standards. Well, her lying and wasting police time, that at least should be a chargeable offence. I know that charge didn’t happen either. Hope your brother is ok now.

[@stephaniet1022]

Those babies were very unwell. Life expectancy - not good. Also, I think Lucy has been blamed for medical incompetence.

[@JessicaJones2001-o7t]

Someone had to take the blame it was Lucy or the hospital,if the hospital took the blame numerous managers would have received their P45 so to save themselves they fed Lucy to the lions

[@63mckenzie]

Given the recent case of the guy who wrongfully served 17 years. I'd have thought any discrepancies would now automatically trigger a review of any conviction.

[@daveuk888]

Question for you: If there is general concern that there has been (admitted) errors, how do we ensure that other evidence is error-free?

[@legion162]

It's shocking that even now the CPS makes mistakes with evidence that can destroy peoples lives. In this case I don't think it made any difference, but in another case it might have been the only evidence. Even if ultimately being cleared, you will still have served prison time, lost friends and family that would be hard or impossible to rebuild relationships with.

[@alantheinquirer7658]

Any official body is not infallible. The more people involved, the more technical stuff ... it all adds both complexity and areas for error. Criminal action affects everyone. The important thing is that errors/faults are discovered, published and then corrected to protect others in the future.

[@petersutton523]

@@alantheinquirer7658 Yet halfwits still want to restore the death penalty. Just try “correcting” that.

[@legion162]

@@alantheinquirer7658 I'm in now way connected with the law, courts etc. But as an outsider looking in, I can't imagine anything more basic than ensuring evidence is labeled properly. This sort of thing has happened many times before, and it seems like they haven't learnt from their mistakes and have zero procedures in place to make sure that things are right. If they can mess up something as simple as this on a high profile case, what confidence can the average citizen have that they are going to get a fair trial

[@sarahsarah4271]

If this is correct about CPS then this organisation needs to be investigated. I’ve found CPS and police have made mistakes with my case. Unfortunately at one time we could get it thrown out for abuse of process but now your solicitors and barristers have been stripped of the power they once had and you have to still jump through the hoops.

[@normankennith7919]

now is the time for keir starmer to get involved whether he likes it or not!! seeing as he used to work for the 'cps' it is up to him to right the wrong! after all, tory david davis has got involved in trying to get lucy's 'guilty' verdict overturned"! i'm sure that between them they can bring about justice which will see lucy exonerated!!!

[@gmseed]

I've always view the Letby case as yet another NHS cover up.

[@richardfile4001]

Yet another miscarriage of justice. And it will take many years to put it right. Poor girl.

[@martinpook5707]

Judges HATE being wrong.

[@jaywalker3087]

I'm a Sacked AnE worker... Knowing what happened to me , I've always thought there was something Dodgy about this..... I was targeted by Management and they finally got me , for Trying To Raise Standards and Pointing Out Their Defficiances. Lucy is a Prime Example of Their Power !!!

[@stevenuttley]

This door swipe evidence is not something that will fly on its own. However, new statistical evidence will emerge in due course (it's being worked on) and that might well clear the permission hurdle at the Court of Appeal.

[@_Mentat]

Conviction by spreadsheet is unsatisfactory. That said, I have no opinion on whether LL is guilty or not.

[@normankennith7919]

conviction by 'spreadliesheets' are also unsatisfactory!!! LUCY IS INNOCENT!!

[@JohnSmith-vy4lh]

Some lawyer. This is an obvious case of an unsafe conviction. This is what you get when you can't afford a proper defence. They failed to subpoena witnesses and failed to properly examine the spreadsheet and all the other nurses spreadsheets. They failed to question the so called expert witness properly. An average barrister should of been able to rip his evidence to shreds. It looks very much like the hospital are using her as a scape goat to cover their own short comings. It's amazing what some people will do to cover their own backs. The post office scandal shows this perfectly. It's funny how bad actors stick up for each other.

[@George-ky4wf]

@@JohnSmith-vy4lh well said !

[@SloverOfTeuth]

She wasn't convicted by a spreadsheet. She was convicted by a jury who felt the CPS had proven her guilt beyond reasonable doubt. The whole point of the jury is to weigh the evidence, and the point of the defence is to point out possible weaknesses in that evidence to the jury. That trial has happened. A lot of people are saying this is an unsound conviction, but not presenting any hard evidence to support their claims.

[@JohnSmith-vy4lh]

@@SloverOfTeuth Yes , there's never any miscarriages of justice , ever. The jury can only rule on the information laid before them. If the information has been distorted or withheld, then the jury may not come to a right verdict. The police, CPS and the hospital all wanted a guilty verdict. We can all be pictured in a bad light under that one sided scrutiny. I'm not saying she is innocent or guilty, i'm saying the evidence in reality was not strong enough for a conviction. In all likelihood she probably is not guilt imho.

[@herbrand47]

CPS has a policy of convictions at any cost.

[@richards200]

I've never been convinced that she did it. I've seen how that hospital operates, I was born there, my daughter was born there and I worked there.

[@adespade119]

90,000 fatal medical errors per year in UK hospitals, I've no idea what she did, if anything. Are they just throwing her under the bus, because they got caught.

[@jtrevm]

Have you seen the latest EYE comment by MD on this? He raises the question of the number of experts witnesses called by the Defence cf Prosection. 6 v 0. He is very 'sceptical'.

[@jaysmith8199]

The prosecution had access to expert witnesses. They chose not to use them. Speaks volumes......

[@markkelly9621]

Are you saying the prosecution did not call any expert witnesses but the defence called six? The programme I watched on channel 5 suggested the defence didn't call any expert witnesses. Edit. Just quickly checking somewhere - there was in fact no defence expert evidence out into evidence before the Jury.

[@paulrichards6894]

@@markkelly9621 no one would come forward for fear of their job...i can understand it

[@markkelly9621]

@@paulrichards6894 That appears to be incorrect. I do understand that was one of the (weird) arguments made in a Channel 5 programme on the case The Defence DID instruct experts but they did not call them to give evidence before the Jury. Note, had the defence experts refused to give evidence, the Defence could have obtained summonses to compel them to testify. However, the Defence decided not to call the evidence.

[@Tommcdonald818]

Dr Jayaram's evidence was full of inconsistencies and contradicted by 3 nurses.Judge Goss's instruction to the jury did take into account circumstances outside the court -ie that she had already been convicted at the previous trial.Lucy Letby's defence team were absolutely appalling as anybody who followed the trial will be aware.You have said you will be looking at the comments so I would be interested in your reply.

[@normankennith7919]

the hospital & the court officials are as corrupt as hell & if/when lucy is found innocent, those people who gave evidence against her should be gaoled for a verylong time, no matter who they are!!!

[@minixtvbox]

So she needs new barristers

[@normankennith7919]

@@minixtvbox yes indeed! then they can sentence the corrupt hospital management, doctors & original court officials, to a long term in prison for perjury!!!

[@dimmuborgir4804]

Since this started I had a strange feeling about the whole debacle. It’s a setup.

[@gizmo5601]

I wouldn’t say a set up. More, a complete miscarriage of justice. Gossip and suspicion about Lucy led to a whole movement against her. From a stupidly flawed table of nurses on shift compared to some of the “suspicious” deaths, so called “experts” speculating in hindsight sight on causes of death that in the light of day are blatantly false. I feel really bad for Lucy. I only hope her case is reviewed with a critical eye. If she is completely innocent as many fear, what a terrible shame and another awful British miscarriage of justice.

[@paulannable3734]

Not everything is a fucking conspiracy

[@elliegreen4738]

@dimmuborgir Well said. In my opinion a set up to fool the masses and get them to accept the introduction of American style prison sentences and later on the return of the death penalty. The thousands of vicious comments from people after "she"* was sentenced showed that many Turkeys would vote for Christmas if asked. * LL Looked like a Transwoman and Crisis actor or may even an AI animation. Even the name Lucy Letby is suspicious and L =12=3 in Gematria, a Freemasonic code, so LL= 33 which is as you may know, is a special number to them.

[@Tommcdonald818]

Dr Richard Gill has estimated that negligence claims pending against doctors and the hospital were in the hundreds of millions so the motive is clear.

[@dimmuborgir4804]

@@gizmo5601 She was used as a scapegoat. I hope wheels start turning soon to seriously look at this whole case again. If not, another strike against humanity in keeping with this centuries already appalling record. These are the so-called ‘professional’ people we are supposed to trust. Same as the Police farce and what they have become…

[@gordonmitchell729]

I often thought that there were holes in the so called evidence given at the time of the trial. It was a feeling of inconsistency, but we ‘trust’ the system generally and now I wonder why?

[@davidmitchell3881]

The Royal Statistical Society has opinioned that some of the ststistical analysis was so bad that it is a textbook example of how not to do an analysts. Secondly the defense had a terrible time trying to find an expert to testify. The GMC has had a chilling effect on expert opinion

[@Withnail1969]

She will be released, it's a question of time.

[@connorwood8527]

In the prosecution's opening and closing statement they said that the door swipe times were the "smoking gun" that placed LL alone to harm the babies.DD has wrote to head Cheshire CPS for more detail on how timings effected case.

[@mikeellis4345]

Erroneous evidence?? That’s an immediate retrial. At the minimum.

[@mjowsey]

The investigation into this was MASSIVE the amount of "evidence" was huge. For some of this evidence to be utterly wrong is remarkable.

[@neilsmith9799]

Huge amount of evidence? You must be joking. Huge amount of presumption of guilt without any credible evidence. It has all been discredited.

[@mjowsey]

@@neilsmith9799 I think that you might be right. The fact that none of the babies were suspected of being harmed at the time of their death is strong evidence that something else was wrong and those tiny children weren't murdered at all. It's such a horrible case the agony of the bereaved parents is just multiplied by all this.

[@gazmack6196]

I truly hope that I live long enough to hear Lucy Letby being released and subsequently pardoned for the crimes she hasn’t committed.

[@andreaclarke4955]

Thank you Sir, for the excellent work and service you give us, your subscribers, we, I, watch you to learn, thank you for the teachings, God bless you ❤

[@craigshannon6011]

Pardoned for killing babies? She's guilty stop fighting for her

[@richardd9634]

@gazmack6196 On what basis do you think she's innocent?

[@craigshannon6011]

@richardd9634 Guy probably just wants to get in her pants, not my kind of women anyway. She was the only one constantly on shift when these babies were dying or getting ill, When she switched from night shift to day shift so did the instances to the babies, and each time she went on holiday it all conveniently stopped, she was even caught in the act by a doctor she liked.

[@mackabeats]

Sorry, but the evidence is truly overwhelming. She did it, she's guilty and she was found guilty again in a retrial. I just feel sorry for the parents she tormented and the babies she murdered.

[@mazybee9149]

The nhs has issues with maternity services across the UK. A number were found to be critical. Why did the defense not ask more questions about the leaking sewage and water in the units? That line of queries would raise doubts

[@andym.6141]

When will the powers that be recognise and acknowledge that computer data is not sacrosanct?

[@maryh4650]

Better ask the Post Office. I am SURE they STILL believe it should be.

[@britsticher8889]

Because very few people actually understand data. It's very useful but if you want a true insight you need someone who really knows the data in that field and most importantly its limitations.

[@juliawigger9796]

What's it going to be like with Ai?

[@stephen579]

I thought that if there was reasonable doubt that a person had committed a crime, then they could not be convicted.

[@MsColl90]

You have great faith in the British legal system.

[@poco9964]

Every tiral has at least one liar.

[@paulrichards6894]

the police usually

[@yorkiemike]

@@paulrichards6894 well, no, it's usually the person who get's convicted that is lying.

[@paulrichards6894]

@@yorkiemike i think the police do a fair bit of lying especially in murder cases where they are under pressure from the public and media of solving the crimes...look at barry George colin stagg and worse of all Michael stone...if they are under pressure they will lie to fit someone up

[@toml8142]

I work in hospitals and folk always hold doors open for others

[@helenporter7584]

Especially the consultants!

[@archivist17]

I've been waiting to hear what you may think about this.

[@commuterbranchline8132]

There has been something fishy about this one from the get go…..

[@wildweasel3001]

Don't let facts get in the way of a convient scape goat

[@raymondsawyer8626]

There seems to be a concern growing about the conviction of Lucy Letby

[@zaftra]

She was the only nurse present at all the deaths, and took home documents she shouldn't, cyber stalked the parents, what does it take.

[@ruthbashford3176]

That is not true, why are you spreading misinformation?

[@ashleymartin4512]

it should never be legal/lawful to convict a person of any crime on only curcumstantial evidence that cannot be relied upon if there is no actual evidence to prove they did it the law should say that they have to be found"not guilty"..........end of story..............

[@user-ef2px4xb8d]

The british legal system is not about seeking the truth. It is an adversarial system where whoever has the greatest resources wins. In this case the prosecution spent in the millions of pounds to convict letby. I take the view that Lucy had a terrible defence, which failed to bring in medical experts. Allowed the 'police doctor' to advance theories that had no bearing on the operation of a premature baby ward. The hospital had unsanitary conditions with sewage leaks. Paediatricians were passing from ward to ward tracking in whatever was on the floor in the corridors. In letby's evidence regarding several babies she accurately observes a mottled blue appearance turning into pink and purple patches on the babies skin. Why did paediatricians not recognise this as sepsis? Which paediatricians were not washing their hands? Why were the plumbing and maintenance records not obtained by the defence? Particularly when letby describes a sealing bung as missing on a major piece of equipment connected to a babies interior. Letby's colleagues wanted to appear in her defence. Hospital administrators told employees that to do so might harm their employment prospects. This is interference in the due process of the law in order to cover up gross incompetance on behalf of the management. This hospital had already been downgraded in care. Why was this not entered into the courts records? The police, the judges and hospital administrators all tend to be masons. What are the chances that Lucy letby was convicted behind closed doors in the masonic Lodge as well as the court? The hand in glove accommodations within free masonry and the criminal justice system has always left me with a considerable degree of concern particularly with the likes of Julian Assange and Tommy Robinson. We all have gut feelings that our courts, politicians and civil servants have been hijacked by common purpose (Julia Middleton matrix courses) and WEF young global leaders.. It is no accident that EU leaders prime ministers and presidents come from the goldman sachs banking system. Lucy letby was a scapegoat for a downgraded hospital with serious maintenance issues, serious pathogen transmission and paediatricians and managers trying to cover their own arses. With such a terrible defence of letby, I am left wondering whether there was coercion between the hospital managers, the police, the CPS and the defence solicitors in the prosecution of letby. If 1100 postmasters can be thrown under the bus and have their lives ruined by a ruthless CEO like Paula Vennels then what chance has a poor nurse like Lucy Letby got?

[@George-ky4wf]

BRAVO! WELL SAID, EXACTLY THAT!!!

[@musicsoothesthesoul2021]

👏👏👏 Absolutely👌! 🙏

[@flygrace]

Whatever the truth, the trial was unfair in that the prosecution had months to put their case before the defence had any chance to refute any of the charges. They were complicated charges too, too much to expect the jury to retain months later when the defence was finally able to address them.

[@voonyboy]

Other than circumstantial is there any other evidence? Did we just take away someone's life because of probability? Thank god there's no death penalty here. I am very nervous about this outcome. I always thought that the system of law was based around letting some guilty people go in order that zero innocent people ever got jailed.

[@womble321]

Tbh I think the person responsible is walking around free.

[@neilsmith9799]

You shouldn't have to think that. There were no murders, just natural causes or possible lack of competence.

[@Liberty_Freedom_Brotherhood]

God? Neonatal babies do not have a good survival rate

[@MsRiverdee]

I have always thought she was innocent, I sincerely hope that David Davis does his homework and looks into this case as he promised he would.

[@RB-sm3eu]

Absolutely tragic situation for the families She was convicted on a long and thorough investigation If, she was wrongly convicted, and I don’t means I think she was, but if she was, what a hugely catastrophic life changing life events So many heart felt feelings for all those families involved Xxx

[@southerncomfortuk]

Several people in the comments refer to the volume of expert witnesses’ testimony. Since the tragic case of Birmingham solicitor Sally Clark and the court’s acceptance of the statistics from expert witness Dr. Roy Meadows, it seems apparent that expert witness opinion can also be flawed in some cases.

[@andrewgilbertson5356]

Mistrial ?

[@Happyheretic2308]

Alan, her "defence team" was appallingly bad. They may as well have been paid by the other side.

[@jillwildsmith]

Lucy is Innocent!

[@Multiverse82]

No she isn’t!! 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

[@Swansong321]

Ffs!🙄

[@ruthbashford3176]

@@Multiverse82 Yes she is!

[@Locutus]

She was tried twice and each time she was found guilty by a different jury.

[@user-ct7vy8id2s]

I know she didn't do it. I think the way she was treated she started to feel like she may have done it. But i really don't think she did it and it needs sorting out.

[@neuralwarp]

I wonder if you would discuss the Prosecutor's Fallacy, as it pertains to this case?

[@wba1charlesbeadle790]

It’s gradually edging against the conviction for Lucy Letby. The Thirlwell Inquiry will be big and revealing. The babies simply died from sepsis, not any foul play

[@normankennith7919]

i doubt if the presence of raw sewage in the neo natal unit & intensive care room for nearly a year would have helped, EITHER! LUCY IS 100% INNOCENT!!!

[@SpencerLao]

You're forgetting that a piosoner has been proven to have been operating at the countess of Chester.

[@ruthbashford3176]

@@SpencerLao That's not true as there is actually no evidence that any baby was poisoned with insulin by Lucy Letby or anyone else. The laboratory that performed the blood tests warned the CoCH that if exogenous insulin was suspected the samples should be referred to a more specialist laboratory for forensic testing. This did not happen as the babies recovered. Ms Letby's barrister was certainly negligent in regards to agreeing to the "insulin poisoning" as fact but her entire defence seemed to be woefully inadequate as a whole on so many levels, shocking really!

[@normankennith7919]

@@SpencerLao maybe! but it isn't lucy letby! it is the sewage leak in the neo natal unit which most certainly led to the babies dying!! raw sewage & new born, frail babies were never meant to be in the same room but this is what happened in the countess of chester hospital! the leak lasted from june 2015 to spring 2016, the same period that lucy was supposed to have killed 7 babies! now i might be wrong but i doubt if you wash your dinner plates in the toilet after having just done a crap!! of course, one should remember where there is shitty water, there are flies which would have flown around in the neo natal unit & intensive care room! needless to say, this revelation was covered up by the corrupt judge who said it was irrelevant! LUCY IS INNOCENT!!

[@SpencerLao]

@@normankennith7919 and you're smothering one fact with another... let me repeat my point.... a piosoner has been proven to have been at work at the Countess of Chester Hospital.

[@HoratioBlogs]

Who does "cab rank" rule really benefit? It's great for the defendant if the next barrister is line happens to be really good, but what happens if they are allotted someone that is mediocre, low energy, or just plain crap? God help anyone who is the subject of a trial. It's a lottery - the barrister, the jury, the judge.

[@HoratioBlogs]

Scapegoat?

[@user-ku2xs1md2o]

So, when someone was in they were out, when out they were in. It is not only this, the rest of the supposed 'evidence' is falling apart. Are you on damage control knowing what is coming? You think she had a good defence team? Says it all.

[@connorwood8527]

The Thirwell enquiry will be very informative on what went on at the unit .I have read justice Therwell is very thorough.

[@nigelnicholson7439]

Thanks for your videos, I find them informative and entertaining. You also put a very human face on the legal system.

[@ep1929]

What explanation do you people have for the "I did this, I am evil" letter? How do you explain Lucy's "excitement" when a baby had a collapse? How do you explain scores of confidential hospital documents at her home? How do you explain babies that were doing well suddenly collapsing when Lucy was around? Why did the collapses stop when Lucy was taken off the ward? I have listened the court transcripts twice or more, it appeared any awkward questions presented to Lucy were met with her saying she couldn't remember or can't recall. I'm sorry, but there are too many variables that point to Lucy's guilt.

[@David-jb5dv]

Love the landscape.