Crawler Canyon Presents: a Baseline Motor Test: $90 35T vs. $50 35T vs. $14 35T

  Рет қаралды 4,720

Crawler Canyon

Crawler Canyon

Күн бұрын

Пікірлер: 42
@FaithSaraG
@FaithSaraG 2 жыл бұрын
Thanks for testing a motor more expensive than I'd ever buy. Glad to know I'm not missing much. I'm down to one brushed truck anyway, those dang outrunners are addictive.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
That's me with Fusions. But even at that, it's not like I have a ton of unused systems lying around. I just keep building more rigs to eat up more electronics.
@mitsuman5555
@mitsuman5555 2 жыл бұрын
Motor bin tour? Brief thoughts on each?
@fejwe
@fejwe 2 жыл бұрын
Great review. I'm obsessed with Fusions on my "main" trucks, but I have an SCX10 ii F100 I have mainly for visiting friends and my kid. I've have been looking for a different motor for it (non-Holmes, knowing about your customer service experience with them). That Injora is definitely finding a home in my Axial.
@Molekulasti
@Molekulasti 2 жыл бұрын
I have an OG Fusion 1800 kv and I just can't convince myself to like it. It seems that FOC removes everything I like about little trail trucks. It's just... too perfect? Too digital? Like modern recordings compared to tape? I'm a brushed motor type of guy, definetly. I love the sound of them, the fact that they bog down when in a bind and I know it's time to find a better line.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
You would NOT like the Fusion Pro. It's like putting it in easy mode. The power is so linear, I can do a whole line with the throttle held at a single position. I guess I'm more of a digital guy, because I'd own a dozen of them if I could.
@Molekulasti
@Molekulasti 2 жыл бұрын
No no, I get the appeal. It's a fantastic thing that. I've always looked for beauty in imperfection. That's my jam.
@meirdeaph
@meirdeaph 2 жыл бұрын
That was great they all did better than i first thought
@eddiegoodridge9765
@eddiegoodridge9765 Күн бұрын
Team Brood Racing builds all the handwound motors in house. Certain parts are made by Sagami, like the endbell and the unwound armature. Endbells come unassembled and we configure them as needed for the motor they are going on. We have our endbell as well, but I stopped producing them simply because they ended up costing 5 times what a Sagami did. We still make our own endbell parts that are using on some motors, typically as options or on custom motors. Magnets for all motors are made by a magnet company, nobody manufactures their own magnets. Doomsday uses TDK FB9 series magnets, which are what all the top modified racing motors used to use back in the day. The can is 100% our design and machined by our machinist. That can is ours and belongs to us and anyone selling them is getting them from us. The big difference in that can is unlike the other motors in your video which are stamped cans, the Doomsday is CNC machined from 1080 steel, which has the best magnetic properties for can material. Stamped cans work for the price point, but they are almost always off in internal diameter from side to side and top to bottom. This causes the motors to have a weird airgap (the space between the armature and the magnets). It can cause a host of noticeable problems, if its off by more than a certain amount. Cogging, inconsistent brake, inconsistent startup, running hot, among other things can all happen. (more on this in a few) A CNC can doesn't have this issue, as stuff that has any runout over a certain amount is tossed in the junk bin. We are able to double check this as well with more accuracy, as we glue in all the magnets by hand. Getting a measurement is much easier with no magnets in the way. Since we glue in our magnets, we are able to match them before installation. Makes a difference in how consistent the motor is. Now, we do sell multiple other cans the are our designs, drawn by us, prototypes were done in some cases by our machinist or myself, as I went to school and have a degree in machining technology. These cans all go through the same stuff as a Doomsday. We also sell the Sagami OEM teardown under a few names. These motors come basically just like a Doomsday, even to the point we do not have them install the magnets so we can check the can and fix it if possible or toss it in the junk bin. Our version from sagami is technically the same teardown as the Tekin you have there except ours has the FB9 magnets in both dual and quad magnets and our can in chrome plated. Holmes Hobbies sells the same teardown as his Torquemaster PRO and Crawlmaster PRO lines. Its an excellant teardown, as Sagami is a high quality motor maker from Japan who used to make teardowns for everyone except Trinity (they did in the early days), so Reedy, Orion, Checkpoint, LRP, Yokomo, etc. all made by Sagami. They all used the 3-slot arms we still use to this day. 5-slot was not legal for racing, so nobody sold them. We also sell a version of the other motor in your video. That is a chinese produced motor thats sold to everyone under the sun willing to buy the minimum quanity. I got them to make the first 5-slot 540 motors, which they immediatley made a 550 version as well. I got them to make the 550 3-slot too, which they turned around and sold under their retail brand and OEM to countless companies. They make all the version you see of it, Reedy, Jconcepts, Hobbywing, etc are all made by them, even my version (Intensity (3-slot 540), Ravage (5 -slot 540), Pulverizer (3-slot 540), and Demolition (5-slot 550) are the names I sell them under). Every company but mine literally just has them completely made by them or they sticker and/or package them here. Mine come to me assembled, but I pull each and everyone apart so I can assemble it optimally for the best performance. I cut the comms on our lathes, as they are cut on an automated machine there and almost always have a cone to them. I zap the magnets, as for whatever reason they often come at like 75% charged. I then reshim and space the armature correctly, I then install high performance quality brushes and toss the stock ones in a huge bin. I check the springs to make sure they are to the optimal tension and install. Motors are set at zero timing in the forward direction, unless requested for a reverse motor and/or timing. I then break the motor in using our method to get the brushes seated correctly while minimizing wear on the comm. I then test it on our meters before shipping it out. On a Ravage, I do all that for $29.99, the Reedy Radon 540 5-slot is basically the same base motor thats sold for $33.99 that comes as is direct from china. I realize that my price doubles the other motor, but besides installing a pair of $7 brushes, I have about 30+ minutes of work into each motor. If my time and skill is worth the $15 is up to you.
@eddiegoodridge9765
@eddiegoodridge9765 Күн бұрын
As for the handwounds Armatures for handwounds come as a blank. I looked into making an armature ourself, even made prototypes. While they were better than the sagami, they also were nearly 4 times the price for just a blank. All of the winding and final processing is done by us. Arms go through a pretty long process compared to a machine wound. We wind them by hand which allows us to use bigger wire, which is a higher quality wire using pure copper, while machine wounds from china typically use a lower grade, and they are pattern wound so each segment has the same electrical resistance which rarely happens on a machine wound. Arms are then welded (its technically brazing, but has always been called welding as the device made for it uses a spot welder) using Sil-Fos 15, which has 15% Silver and 80% copper 5% phosphorous that has a melting temp of over 1400 degrees. Machine wound motors use a basic compression weld with no type of solder or the like, which is often a major fail point for them. Our joint won't fail, as for it to melt the rest of the motor would have long melted down. Arms are resistance and inductance checked before moving on to the epoxy stage. Machine wounds at best will have a light brushed on epoxy to prevent the outside wire from moving, while handwounds are epoxy dipped using VPI (Vacuum Pressure Impregnation) which fills in any space between the wires to prevent heat pockets and to prevent wires from vibrating up against each other, which can cause a short. After that, the commutators are cut using diamond bit on our comm lathes and triple checked for roundness and no coning from run out. The slots are cleaned using a custom tool we had made. Then the arms are balanced by either drill balancing or epoxy balancing. The machine we use to balance cost over $10,000 new when we bought it in 2006. We double check the balance on our other balancer which was $9000 when we bought in 2004. At that point, our standard armature is done and ready to be installed in whichever can the customer bought. Once the arm goes through all of that process, and the can and endbell are completed, its assembled similar to the description of Ravage above, though I always take more time on handwounds to get them just right. They go through a slightly different break in process and I run them through the dyno as well the meters to make sure everything is just right. And one thing we do different than every other motor company, every single direct motor purchase is built to order. (I can't really do this with say motors for Amain, though their motors are built when they order them). I simply don't have motors prebuilt. When you put the order in, then I build it. Even the china machine wounds are done like this. Order a Ravage tomorrow from us, its getting built right then. We've always done it like this, even back in the racing days of brushed motors. I have over $75,000 in equipment alone for brushed motors. The shop has lots of cool tools that work for both brushed and brushless. We actually did produce our everything except armature motor (I made armature prototypes, just too expensive for basically just reinventing the wheel to even be close in price) for while. We had two versions the Nexus and Genesis. The Nexus was 5mm shorter. They used everything made by us except the arm (I guess technically the brushes, as they were laydowns that I cut down one all 5 sides and put new serrations on them. Motor was completely designed by myself and my CAD guy Nick. They were very trick motors that were a pain the butt to build. I even wound the springs by hand myself. The magnets at first were made by a magnet company for us out of cobalt. I ended up switching to a neo that we drew up and had made. Cobalt was just too heavy and the magnetics were not optimal even how I had them cut. We also do all types of custom motor builds. I've been Doomsday that were $175 a motor by the time they were loaded up with option parts and custom work. And thats not even close to the record amount for brushed motors I've built. Straight single crawler motor, which was for a 2.2s comp truck, $325 for the motor. It was loaded to the hilt with stuff. Most expensive pair of motors for a 2.2 Pro comp truck, $375 each. I think I have pics of them still. I built a custom drag motor that was $300 and custom motor for a gold tub RC10 that was $275. Our Stubby motors start at $175 for the standard version and our Ultimate Stubbies start at $225 and go up from there. Many of the custom parts used on these pricey motors are 100% designed and drawn by us and machined at our machinst. (same machinst that makes our option parts for racing buggies like our World Champion winning Slipper Plates) Sorry for the long winded response on a 2 year old video. In straight terms, the Doomsday isn't rebadged and isn't built by someone else. We do use some parts from Sagami, but that's more to keep costs down than anything. I put a lot of work into these motors so it stings a bit to hear that its believed they are rebadged and built somewhere else. I do appreciate the kind words on the motor and how you liked the performance. I get the issues with the price, I have them as low as I can. I didn't even raise the prices like everyone else did during covid. If you have any questions, just message me on the site or FB. Maybe I can figure out a way to send you some motors to test...
@brianmassey7563
@brianmassey7563 2 жыл бұрын
Good review and interesting. I noticed the behavior of the rig (assume it's the batt) on descending. A few nose-stands. I was wondering, when you have SOA and BOA, is the 60/40 weight distribution just as important? Sprung, unsprung, etc. Maybe a question to answer when you talk about the change.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
The nose stands are a result of slapping the battery on the servo and making no other changes. The rear is now oversprung and underdamped, because a quarter pound came off the the springs, weight moved forward, and I made no adjustment to compensate. It's all tunable-- it's just untuned. ATM.
@mark-mj5dl
@mark-mj5dl Жыл бұрын
I wonder if you slapped extra magnets on the outside of the can if that would increase the torque level of the motors.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon Жыл бұрын
Well, torque sleeves do work-- I've tried putting the sleeve from a 550 on a 540 and it did make a perceptible change in drag brake performance-- but it can only go so far. At the end of the day, it comes down to the size/strength/quality of the magnets. I'm not running any brushed motor that isn't a 540+, and all of those Surpass motors use neodymium magnets instead of ferrite magnets-- which is how a 5-slot 540 can hold like a 3-slot 550.
@mark-mj5dl
@mark-mj5dl Жыл бұрын
@@CrawlerCanyon Adding magnets on top of magnets increases the strength of the magnets so maybe I will do an experiment on this and see what happens.
@offroad1911
@offroad1911 2 жыл бұрын
I’ve always used the Holmes Crawlmaster Expert 5 slot line of brushed motors which are in the middle price of his motors and I wonder how much better the Crawlmaster Magnum is for a price of $175 which to me sounds crazy for a brushed motor.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
The price of hand-wound motor has always been crazy, and it's only gotten worse. I have no genuine idea who the buyer is for a brushed motor of that price-- because I can tell you that you could spend your life trying to wear out enough $14 motors to match it, and never get there. The Magnum is gonna be smoother, and have more torque than a comparable motor at the same turn count, but IMO those kinds of motors are well beyond the point of diminishing returns. They definitely fall into the same sort of situation where someone chooses a Rolex over a Timex. It's better made, and there's a cachet to it-- but it's not necessarily going to tell time more accurately.
@davincox-vt1gs
@davincox-vt1gs 5 ай бұрын
Ahoy there! Have you tried the Reedy Radon box motors? I built a Enduro builders kit for my first 1/10 crawler and bought a Reedy (model# 27424) 540 16T 5 slot 1875kv brushed motor with a 1080WP and 18t pinion. Flysky GT3C radio. I’m curious if the rtr motors are different than the box/crate motors? People are amazed that it’s brushed and that it’s a Reedy cause it’s so smooth but has a ton of punch.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 5 ай бұрын
There's nothing wrong with the Radon motors other than the price. They're re-labeled Surpass 5-slots, and usually cost 30-40% more-- the "Reedy Tax." I never met a 5-slot motor that I liked (traded too much torque for too much smoothness, IMO) until I met the Rocket 540+ V2 motors, and never looked back. Anything I have that's brushed is running some flavor of Surpass 540+.
@davincox-vt1gs
@davincox-vt1gs 5 ай бұрын
@@CrawlerCanyon good to know! If I remember correctly my motor was about $25-$30 dollars from Tower. I keep thinking I’ll upgrade to a Holmes but this Radon keeps on truckin. I’ve learned more from your channel than any other channel and I truly love the commentary. I have much to learn so keep up the good work my friend.
@davincox-vt1gs
@davincox-vt1gs 5 ай бұрын
I’ll check out the Rocket motor you suggested.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 5 ай бұрын
@@davincox-vt1gs The Surpass Rocket 540+ and NHX Momentum are basically bargain versions of the Holmes Magnum. The NHX is the cheapest. amzn.to/3SMUm5r
@Evilslayer73
@Evilslayer73 5 ай бұрын
Hi do the injora is producing a lot of heat?
@standforjesus7427
@standforjesus7427 2 жыл бұрын
I was wondering how the injora would hold up against the pricey motors I have 2 of the injora's work great
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
I was pleasantly surprised by the $14 Injora. Definitely punches above it's weight. Not as smooth as the others, but I mean... so cheap.
@offroad1911
@offroad1911 2 жыл бұрын
For the price how which direction would you go between the Tekin 35t HD or the Tekin 16t 5 slot?
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
HD for sure, but that's my bias-- me and 5-slot don't get along. I haven't really liked a single one I've ever tried, and I've tried lots. The HD 35T is a great motor.
@garageworks5246
@garageworks5246 2 жыл бұрын
Awesome video
@jimbocreationsbu8203
@jimbocreationsbu8203 2 жыл бұрын
for $14 with a few les teeth on the pinion and heavier shock oil - best value of these 3 - can't go wrong -maybe with a bit of curve tuned on the remote
@JViello
@JViello Жыл бұрын
I think one of the differences that you inadvertently picked up on is break in. Once the brushes seat and make full contact, it changes behavior. The Injora is as Chinese factory fresh and stiff as a pair of payless shoes. Break in, and taking a minute to clean out the manufacturing gunk makes it as smooth as anything custom wound. Once it's transmitter/esc tweaked and geared right you can't tell the difference. I would pretty much guarantee the hand wound motor is prerun and broken in, and most likely the Tekin is at least run in on a bench. IMO paying anything over $20 for a brushed motor is ridiculous with all the great brushless out there.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon Жыл бұрын
The only exception I would make to that are the 540+ 5-slots, which are the closest brushed motors I've ever felt to the control and torque of brushless. Sure, much of that is negated by the fact that you can get a Rhino and an outrunner for the same money as a 1080 and a 540+, but hey... gotta have some variety.
@JViello
@JViello Жыл бұрын
@@CrawlerCanyon I would agree with that. However Hobbywings FOC has made brushed set ups and even some brushless seem archaic with the dreaded "rubber band effect". I still can't get fully comprehend I paid $70 for a 1200kv ES. (The latest units are 58mm long unlike the older ones and fit right into the VS410 with no modifications!)
@Shakermt
@Shakermt 2 жыл бұрын
I'd say the Brood is fusion crisp, the Tekin is milder than the brood and the Injora has more punch but better drag brake than the Tekin. I think for the money I'd go for the Injora and a curve in the radio. Or just go fusion :)
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
That Injora is tough to beat at fourteen bucks, I must admit.
@Andy_Yates
@Andy_Yates 2 жыл бұрын
Sounds like you're hitting diminishing returns with each, but incrementally better refinement with each price increase. The performance of the Team Brood motor looked awesome on video. This is similar to guitars. Is the $5k custom shop guitar 5x better than the $1k production line guitar? Probably not, but the finish details and refinement will be better (assuming no ringers, and average examples of both). The people that buy custom shop things either want the prestige, want the best in refinement, or are at a skill level high enough where that last 5% is noticeable. People going to regional or national comps probably will want that refinement and predictability of a hand wound. Alternatively, if you're spending hundreds on the best chassis, transmission, axles, and radio, a builder is probably going to get a motor that is commensurate with the other parts. Otherwise, and here comes the social perception and pressures thing, people are going to be like, why'd you cheap out on the motor 🙃
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
The same goes for bikes. People pay through the nose for "boutique" stuff, when they could spend the same or less for custom, and get a frame made for their body. People are willing to pay a whole lotta money for prestige. I always remember an interview with a violinist from YEARS back (it may have been Anne Akiko Meyers) talking about owning a Stradivarius-- which spends 99% of it's time in a vault/humidor. When she would tour, she played a carbon fiber bodied violin, because it sounded EXACTLY the same, whether she was playing it on the top of mountain or on a beach. So I appreciate that kind of utilitarianism. I'll use that as the excuse to not buy things like $175 brushed motors, and buy $150 Fusion Pros instead. Works the same, all the time.
@Andy_Yates
@Andy_Yates 2 жыл бұрын
@@CrawlerCanyon Oh yeah my most expensive brushed is a Crawlmaster Expert at 45 or 50 bucks. Then I started getting into brushless options. I have a new Fusion Pro going into my new Phoenix build. I'm really looking forward to the torquey, quiet attitude of the Pro. I'm also looking forward to your impressions of the SE. I have to think there will be more similarities than differences on driving impressions
@dezfan
@dezfan 2 жыл бұрын
Hmmmm, I have a Yeah Racing Hackmoto V2 35T sitting in my electronics drawer. 🤔
@Steve_J81
@Steve_J81 2 жыл бұрын
I sent you a message on instagram, I would have done it here on youtube but I didn’t see an option.
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
KZbin figures we don't need the ability to talk to people directly, so they did away with direct/private messaging a few years ago. Because... reasons, I guess?
@Steve_J81
@Steve_J81 2 жыл бұрын
@@CrawlerCanyon I was wondering because doing a google search shows I can. 🤷‍♂️
@CrawlerCanyon
@CrawlerCanyon 2 жыл бұрын
@@Steve_J81 according to the internets, KZbin added direct messaging in 2017, and then took it away in 2019. All of the like "help articles" date back to 2019 or so.
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