Saito FG 60 R3 checking internals after the run

[@remkojerphanion4686]

That was indeed interesting. The Saito is such a beautiful piece of engineering, and I like the way you captured it in super sharp video quality.

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you for so nice comment ! Definitely, it is important for the people, who will, probably, try to look inside the engine, to have a clear picture and exact work consequence during dismantling \ assembling routine.

[@roymills415]

Excellent video. Clearly number three not firing. Any updates on its performance? I’m sure you are looking at cylinders temperatures to see how they compare. I’m running a Moki 250 and the same problem happens with the cylinder number three not firing. Seems to run when it wants to after the engine warms up. Great info thanks! How often do you check valve tapper gap?

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your comments and questions ! This was one of the first videos about completely new Saito FG60R3. A few serious flaws were found: uneven fuel distribution in between cylinders, as well, as working temps were different. One cylinder, which runs too cool, was overflooded. Engines also shows a lot of vibrations, it was absolutely unacceptable to be mounted on the plane. There is at least, 3 more videos about this problem, you can found it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3rHXo2riM2Ifa8 here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b5rSY4KDnLeFfq8 and here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nJqki3uNa6p1pJo So, there is necessary to replace fuel distribution manifold, as well, to achieve normal engine's operation. Regarding valve clearance check - practically, before every test run, to be sure, that this will not influence on the other engine's flaws 😀

[@roymills415]

I’m hooked! Love the way you play with the hall sensor just to see the results, we say “ballsy”. I will look at the rest and let you know what I think. On the fence with this motor but your findings are making me lean towards DA twin for the next project. We shouldn’t have to re-engineer these things to run correctly, great work!

[@crazyengines88]

@@roymills415 Thank you Sir, I truly appreciate your praise! The thing is, I like to get to the bottom of things, so until I get answers, and understanding of what's happening, I can't stop. Of course, many of these explorations may not be of interest to my audience, so you need to know when to stop, take a break, and then bring it to the end. Still, investing another $500 in an engine, as a replacement fuel manifold, that already cost $1,000 is somehow indecent. I will definitely look for an alternative way, perhaps I will do it myself, with the help of a specialist turner. Thanks and wish you a nice day!

[@roymills415]

So couple things, I find your observations super helpful even if they are not directly relevant to issues I might be having. So much of the theory transfer’s between glow and gas, mechanical electrical and design characteristics. Hate to rehash some obvious points , sorry if you covered elsewhere, as to vibration have you confirmed prop balance? Not just blades at 3:00 and 9:00 but have you truly balanced the hub? Uneven fuel distribution at intakes, crankcase: several of the Moki experts have suggested a internal plenum style vane that is tunable: iE picture the blades of a motor boat propellor, the basic idea is to speed up or slow down the fuel mixture to each cylinder based on the angle of it respective “blade” seems folks have had mixed results with this modification. I’m on around fix-number 7 on the Moki still trying to get #3 to fire. I know you appreciate the work to fine tune these awesome round engines to get max performance out of them. How about rotating the offending cylinder to the top position to aid in breaking in? I’m also running an iridium style spark plug on #3 to try to coax it into life! Sorry for the long reply, I know you said you might have “shelved” the R3 for another day. Much Respect, Roy

[@crazyengines88]

@@roymills415 Thank you very much, dear Roy, for comments and thanks for the detailed description, I am one myself, so no problem. First: The propeller was checked for balance several times, all these launches were within a year, and I used 2 different propellers, including reinforced plastic. Vibration in such a volume was not associated with propeller imbalance, this is a clear consequence of the incorrect geometry of the crank mechanism, when the flash in cylinder No. 1 occurs on time, in cylinder No. 2 with a delay, and in cylinder No. 3 earlier than in TDC. As a result, with spark ignition, the flash occurs desynchronously with the position of the piston. This gives a significant vibration. I specifically switched the engine to glow fuel in order to allow the engine itself (with the help of the natural advance of the glow plugs) to determine the moment of the flash. And here it is the moment of truth - on the glow plugs, the engine began to vibrate less. The propeller has nothing to do with it. There is more to explore in these perfect Saito engines 🙂 But my struggle isn't ended/ There is a lot of interesting things are waiting for..., I hope

[@lectro88]

Thank you for your Video's I have this same engine and as I mentioned in other places I changed the Timing Hub or Flywheel to the CH ignition version and myself found positive improvements in ease of starting and smoother running in general. I am a "Tinkerer"... one who likes to explore and make improvements when practical. I "Love" this engine, I crank it on the bench to hear it run "Twisted Sick". So to you and anyone else,. here is my question, after this general statement. We all know this engine has it's flaws "out of the box" . First thing I noticed and I must admit I tore my engine down before I started it the first time and did not like the "Cir Clips" on the 2 connecting rod pins. These seem to me that they could be thrown off at higher rpms. Does anyone else agree with me that a real snap ring... the snake eye type that take a set of snap ring pliers to install and remove correctly., Would be better served in this application. The cir clip is nice for ease of removal and installation if a quick manner. But would not a real set of properly sized snap rings give a better since of security that would require a valued effort to remove. I have not installed this yet in a plane, but I wanted to ask the question. Thanks in advance.

[@crazyengines88]

Hi and thank you very much for your comment ! I think, that I'm also a person, like you identified yourself. 😊Definitely, absolutely agree with you about FG60R3 engine flaws. This flaws were stopped me to continue with it, because I don't think, that is possible to fly with engine with such behavior. Unfortunately, I've no time to search deeply for circlips tools, for mounting and dismounting it's from the engine. Usually, I use small thin flat tip screwdriver to work with, of course, it's takes an attention and consumes a lot of time, especially if circlip suddenly jumped up from engine to the floor of your workshop. 😃 Thank you very much for your comment, I like it very much, Have a nice day !

[@LeonardoCostaUSA]

That's cool my friend!!

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your evaluation ! Have a nice day !

[@vulturedroid9804]

What % of oil in the fuel? Cheers

[@crazyengines88]

Hi, and thank you for your question ! As far, as I can remember, it was 15:1 gas \ oil mix. Oil - Power Model 2T-S fully synth oil (UK made). This oil was an official Saito Mfg. recommendation. So rich (15:1) mix was used due to N.I.B, engine condition.

[@roki5941]

Is there any theory on why the no 3 is clean compaired to 1 & 2 ? Is there any diference in ignition timing between the cylinders,, I have read somewhere that Saito does not compensate the mechanical conrod difference in their timing ? Or is it the older intake manifold design that makes the no 3 piston so clean ?

[@crazyengines88]

Great question ! I'm still thinking about that. Thank you for heads up ! I've several checks during test runs, 3rd cylinder works, as all. But I've one question more - why first cylinder runs hotter, that others ? On most engines (Saito FG 60 R3, Saito FA 180 R3, Saito FA 120 R3). Any glue about that ? I think, the dog is rummaging around here somewhere.

[@roki5941]

@@crazyengines88 Well,, what I know is that saito need to change their timing and take in to account that the conrod geometry varies. I also have read a lot about the uneven fuel distribution. Some people have also rotated the engine during break-in and the engine still exhibits big differences in temperature between the cylinders. My FA170R3 have the old intake manifold and is very hard to tune. That is one of the reasons I am so interested in learning more about the latest designs of the intake manifold. (I don´t like to spend to much for the commersial modifications.) kzbin.info/www/bejne/mHeWiHqupK-UpbM kzbin.info/www/bejne/e3yTnH-QbamXl7s

[@roki5941]

Here is my engine with spark ignition and on methanol fuel. I was not happy with the load-up of fuel that resulted in transition hesitation and a 30 degree difference between cyl 1 & 2-3. kzbin.info/www/bejne/i5_ChoKFecaqr6s

[@crazyengines88]

@@roki5941 Yes, clear, thank you a lot for the links. I'll take your topics into consideration for the future videos, it's interesting, definitely ! I've Saito FA 180 R3, also, would like to run it more, probably, will rotate it, to define, what is going on. Interesting, very interesting !

[@crazyengines88]

Differences in manifold design will be exposed (if any). To go deeper I'll need a bit better weather - right now is ~ -9 degrees Celsius, and windy. Not sure, that I can survive within 3-5 hours for test 😛