Saito FG 60R3 applying the cure

[@donaldvantongeren8385]

Hi, I had the same problems. Made the ring myself with readjusted timing, but also adjustable in ignition timing. The ring can be rotated and than locked. Please check the timing of the engine, Saito delivers them with ridiculous timing! Mine had 40 degrees on cilinder 1 now adjusted to 32 degrees. If your engine has the same timing this is the cause of the vibration. Higher rpm’s won’t show as much because of momentum. My engine has also been transferred to a negative pressure case, the carburator feeds through the crankcase, leading to absolute even cilinder temperatures. I know, a lot of modifications, but worth it. Take a look at Morris Mini Motors, they sell the adjustable timing. Good luck, don’t give up it’s such a sweet engine!

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your comments and advices ! Much appreciated ! I think, that I'll relax a little bit for Saito's 3 Cylinder radials, most of them sharing the same design flaws and later, will try to rework all of them, being equipped with your advices ! Thanks a lot and have a nice day !

[@mpojr]

Than Saito needs to do what you did And correct the problem

[@crazyengines88]

@@mpojr Thank you very much for your advice ! Definitely, I'll continue my holy struggle with this FG 60R3 and for sure, will correct its behavior and reduce vibration level. The only source I'll need - it's the time. This is the most limited recourse. Thank you and have a nice day !

[@lectro88]

I saw the same problems with my FG60R3 that I bought in mid 2023. Bought the CH ignition hub and I found it was a tremendous improvement. I have not thermal checked cylinders yet but will in the next run. I notice cylinder 3 is dumping raw oil and 1 and 2 not so much. For now I am only running low rpm's and 16;1 red armor oil. Bench testing... I hand start my engine with no problems now, before it would kick back and would knock off without reason. Not Sure but it could be CH has a patten on their hub, (just a wild guess) At any rate the hub was a big help to me,. in my opinion. and I am happy with the improvements I saw. Now if this main rod timing will fix anything is next move. It is B$#!t to pay this much money for these engines and continue to have to spend fairly large amounts to tweak them further. Again this is my opinion,. be careful over revving these,. they are like a grenade once you pull that pin. Cheers

[@crazyengines88]

Hi and thank you very much for your comment ! Definitely, absolutely agreed with your especially with the additional (over a half price of a new engine !!!) price you have to pay to fix the simple engineering mistake. This is BS#, for sure. Due to the heavy workload this time, I can't find, unfortunately, enough time for FG60R3 engine, right now more thoughts about single cylinder Supercharging in automotive style. Thanks again for your feedback, please, keep the heads up. With best and kind regards...

[@jamesboatbuild]

So I have this engine and run a xoar prop 23x8 very little vibration. After horizon hobby replaced carb because #2 cylinder was not firing all cylinder's temp are 10 deg.+/- between temperature.

[@crazyengines88]

Hi and sorry for the late reply, I was in the business trip without normal access to my KZbin account. I think, that FG60R3 really needs to be reworked, seriously. One reason, that engine's mechanical geometry has few engineering flaws (different firing angles), non correct firing angles, as well, and for sure, the key problem - is in the uneven fuel distribution, which leads to different cylinder performance. It was clear in thermal video parts. From the common perception, engine has really nice appearance, and very nice, realistic sound. Only the problem, that if you want to fix all this problems, you should spent, at leas, two days of DIY rework, and at least $500-800 for the new, upgraded parts. I'm still not sure is it worth this ? Thank you and have a nice day !

[@albleyenberg4957]

much thanks, i'm working on a 33r3 and it's got uneven cylinder temps. tearing my hair out

[@crazyengines88]

Thanks for reply ! I think, that 33R3 inherits all the shortcomings of the most 3 cylinder Saito radial engines. I still have plans to fix this issue with a different cylinders temps. Just need more time. Thank you and have a nice day !

[@remkojerphanion4686]

I'm surprised that a Saito engine would have such problems. I always thought that Saito was a premium brand, but perhaps that is not the case?

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you for your comment ! I should say, that I was also very surprised and disappointed, but I've received here a lot of comments from different people with confirmation of existence of the such problem with this engine, and that wasn't only one or two notes. At least, two main problems are clarified: 1. Uneven cylinder firing (#2 fires early, #3 fires later). 2. Inlet manifold distributes fuel into cylinders not equally. I was found, that #1 cylinder works leaner, than also lean, but not too much, works #2 cylinder, and #3 cylinder gets the most fuel mix from carb through manifold, works very rich, throwing the unburned mixture into the exhaust. I should think, how to eliminate this vibration behavior, will take a bit of time. According to my understanding, it isn't possible to mount such working engine on the plane, on the first pass through 2.5K RPM, the vibration will tear off the motor frame due to vibration. I've very sturdy test bench, with additional old car accu battery, used as an anchor. With Saito FG 60R3 in that condition it's really shaking, like crazy...

[@remkojerphanion4686]

@@crazyengines88 Thanks for your reply!

[@YangGuici]

I will post a video to show what I did on my engine in next few weeks. I spent a long time on this problem

[@russcole5685]

Just subscribed to your channel to see your fix, master rod sound like the absolute fix, and a better induction plate/plenum, for better fuel mix distribution. Can't go wrong with a correctly time pick up ring and ignition unit. Morris mini motors has done a lot of work with these, but has never showed the master rod fix

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you, it would be great support for many !

[@aSpyIntheHaus]

Those cheeky rotters at Saito!! I can believe that!

[@crazyengines88]

Yes, you're right. I general, to spend over a grand $ for the engine and find out,, that you'll need to spend, at least, the halve of invested more, to get a working engine ? How it could happens, can't accept...

[@roki5941]

@@crazyengines88 I agree,,, SHAME on Saito,, they know about this since 10 years but don´t care. At least they could have offered an upgrade kit at reduced price.

[@crazyengines88]

@@roki5941 Absolutely agree with you ! I think, it could be a good value added business trick for them.

[@albleyenberg4957]

did you have a balanced prop

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you for your question ! Definitely, yes, I check this several times. Unfortunately, prop isn't a reason. Firstly, engine fires uneven, and that's the first reason, the second - engine utilizing very advanced ignition timings, to increase power, and the third = compression ration is very high, that's also leads to increased vibrations level. In addition to the all mentioned, engine has uneven fuel distribution, so #1 and #2 runs hotter ( leaner) and #3 run overreached. So, it wasn't so easy...

[@russcole5685]

Looks like a little localised heat on the drive flange might have helped to expand to for easier disassembly. You can see it pulling up a small bure. Nice result in the end though. Might still need a correct timed master rod

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your comment ! Yes, you're right, it was necessary to preheat the original flange by hair dryer, at least.

[@christopherszabo1768]

I have one with all the Morris Mini Motors Mods. Timing, Intake, Carb runs sweet as a nut.

[@crazyengines88]

Hi, thank you a lot for your comment ! That's great, that MMM's correction set well work for you. As for me, to pay an additional cost for approx. of 1/2 of the engine's price is unacceptable yet. I'll try to find some way, how to override such engines flaws. Adjusting an individual fuel mix flow could be a solution, not tested yet. So, we'll see, I'll continue to work with. Thank you and have a nice day !

[@christopherszabo1768]

Good luck and fair comment it is not cheap to modify

[@crazyengines88]

@@christopherszabo1768 Thank you for your comment ! Definitely, I l know that, but I will try to find a very special solution. Let's see it further. Thank you and have a nice day !

[@roki5941]

Please don´t give up !! 😢 I appreciate the conrod geometrical and valve timing error. I have not heard that anyone have made a new/ corrected main conrod.. other than bushing modification on early engines ? Will the engine be acceptable enough with an even fuel distribution plenum ? Reading more and more about the R3 series at various forums, it seems like people are very happy after the plenum modification. I am sure that evening out the fuel/air will help a lot. Messuring temperature at various rpm´s (low/mid/high) will confirm.

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your support ! I will not give up 🙂. This is the problem, which requesting a lot of time to work with. I decide to make a break for few weeks, to collect more determination and power to continue this struggle. Right now I need more time to the channel, for another interesting topics, and spending time for FG 60R3 experimental surgery just borrowing resources necessary for other topics in the channel, which were planned earlier. I also think, that should be a pause with endless struggle with FG60R3 for our subscribers. I'm really don't like to get a channel nickname " FG60R3 strugglers" 🙂. We'll return to it a bit later, I promise. Thank you for your support !

[@MrDrunion]

It researched this engine prior to buying it ( two weeks ago ). Didn't find any negative stuff. Now I find this video and comments. Just my luck. I have some of the symptoms described here. Some vibration, # 3 throwing oil and misfiring. I have been in RC for a long time and am now just able to afford this engine. I thought Saito was a quality product. I will check the timing on this propdrive and see how far off it is. It is hard to believe Saito would do this on purpose or the quality control is non existent. we shall see.

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your comment ! Definitely, I was very surprised finding this thing, timing mismatch and uneven fuel distribution. I decide to stop investing the money into this engine, because it will becomes half price more expensive, that stock price ( this is without my personal time investment). Let it be...

[@vulturedroid9804]

Saito should get this right out of the box.

[@crazyengines88]

Absolutely ! Such respected Company, with a dozens of years of history couldn't behaves so strange...

[@YangGuici]

the problem is on the conrod design, with this drive hub, the ignition timing is correct, but the valve timing still not correct. the No.3 cylinder has too late timing on the intake valve. and the firing order are not 120 degrees. the perfect solution is make a new conrod and use one magnet hub ;3 sensors with 3 ignitions. Because this Saito ignition has a very strange ignition procedure, check it with timing gun, you will see. I did all this on my Saito FG90R3, then runs correct. And this error is exacerbated on smaller engines.

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your explanation and comments ! I should think, should I invest even more to push this engine to work, as it should. Thank you !

[@roki5941]

Would it help to move the valve timing on cyl 3, one notch ? do you know how many degrees it is "off" ?

[@crazyengines88]

@@roki5941 Thank you for your comment ! I decide to make a little brake with this Saito, to free up the time for other channel projects. Will find and collect more details about this problems and possible way's for correction. Also, engine shows very high compression level, for starting, it needs very powerful "Mayatech" starter, and car 55 Ah accu battery. Probably, this compression level also add few cents to the whole basket of engine's problems.

[@danielhitchens4407]

Thats a great idea to run 3 separate single ignitions, at least if one dies it can be replaced..i had an radial ignition fail the other day ..probably been run about 8 300ml tanks of fuel on the ground..now one of the outputs is breaking up..will get it tested..i just purchased a rcexl unit of alliexpress anyway..and plucked an ignition of another plane i was setting up..fg19r3! Ive been flying my fa120r3 converted to gas today..its actually not a bad runner..has the morris magnet ring on it..i run it for atleast 2mins at a time at full throttle and mixed throttle over 10min flyts ..i ran 500ml of gas in the air today..as for running temps ,i dont digitally check it ..i hand check when landed then apox 2 min or so of being turned off, check again and can hold the cylinders long enough..so im pretty happy with how it runs.... I have yet to get my fg60r3 out and run it for its first time..got fg33r3 aswell ..it runs rather well..i set hall sensor up so its on 30° static on cylinder 1 stock magnet ring..machined out intake so it has same design as fg60r3..it has good power and revs hard ..so i have reduced servo max travel to limit rpm especially for the plane its in. Seagull models bucker jungmeister 20cc..

[@crazyengines88]

@@danielhitchens4407 Thank you very much for your comment and for the story ! I also think, that 3x separate 1 cylinder ignitions should runs better and reliable. It's also a question of a cost and and CNC machinery time. I decide to postponed solution finding for better times, when I'll get more time to investigate the problem and eliminate it step by step. B.t.w., implementing 3 x OS G5 glow plugs also should solve the problem, due to automated ignition. I'll try to provide the run with G5 glow plugs again, to check what will be the difference.

[@mitchilito99]

Hmmmm. . . . I have an FG60R3 in a Phoenix Waco that runs like a top. I've got 2 or 3 hours on it now. The secret of these engines it to set the high needle to 4.5 or 5 turns open then set the LOW NEEDLE for all further leaning/richening. It's crazy but that's what these Saito carbs need. By the way, I also put the CH prop flange on mine. Very necessary.

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your reply and for your advice ! I'll try it immediately, when will be able to found few hours on the bench. Thank you !

[@antoniomoura9347]

a little bit until it breaks due to hydraulic compression!

[@wagnerfratelli3500]

Você deve lembrar que o eixo de manivela, continua errado no seu projeto feito pela saito, contudo o Hub, foi apenas uma melhor maneira de tentar resolver diminuindo o seu problema no balanceamento, e não comentou de eu ter direcionado a você trocar o hub pelas dicas que eu apresentei aqui que lástima....Temos ainda uma CDI muito mal projetada neste FG 60R3, e que deveria ser igual sistema, ao distribuidor usado no motor Moki.

[@crazyengines88]

Boa tarde amigo, e temo que você tenha toda a razão, ainda há muito a ser modificado neste motor. Acho que um sistema de ignição 3-CDI definitivamente poderia funcionar melhor. É preciso verificar, mas ainda não é amanhã, ainda há planos. Obrigado pela ajuda!

[@aSpyIntheHaus]

FG 19 the same?

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you for your comment ! I can't confirm exactly, but there is a few thoughts: Saito FG 19R3 mechanically is practically the similar or the same, as Saito FA 120R3 engine. My experience with FA 120R3 yet is too small, to confirm, that there is a design flaw, too. My Saito FA 120R3 right now is dismantled (wasn't find a time to assemble it), but your question was pushed me to assemble it and to run it, to check, will vibration appears on smaller "brother". But as far, as I remember, it wasn't. On glow ignition engine works "softer", due to the fact, that ignition moment in each cylinder directly depends on glow plug, and ignition advancing is automatic.

[@goodboyringo9716]

I have been checking these engine out and think that Saito should stop selling them with so many problems. I also would like you to check your engine's cam timing (not ignition timing ) on each cylinder , you may be one tooth off on one of these cylinders causing this vibration. There is a video showing the timing if you type in .....Saito FA170R3 customer rebuild part 4 They all time the same way. The timing part will be half way thur the video.

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your comment, definitely< absolutely agree with you ! I also think, that selling the products with such a set of shortcomings it is simply unacceptable. Amazing behavior from such a reputable company. Come on, words won't help matters. Firstly, thank you very much for the advices, I will definitely check the timings, and secondly, sooner or later I hope to “bring” all my radial Seito engines to the normal operation. Thank you again for your advice and comments, I sincerely appreciate your help, and wish you a good day!

[@goodboyringo9716]

@@crazyengines88 ... Thank you for taking my advise. CH ignition has a great fix for the timing. Just a ring on the front crankshaft that has the three magnets embedded. It changes the firing from Saito 45. degree to around 30 degree and the engine will fire better. The old ring will need a puller to remove it. There is another fix dealing with the rear plate , I guess it doesn't deliver the fuel correctly but you can just change it out. Morris mini motors sells it. Yes it is very bad that Saito doesn't fix these problems , I wanted a FG90r3 but I would buy one because of this crap. I'd say buy these two parts and fix the engine now that you have it.

[@crazyengines88]

@@goodboyringo9716 Thank you very much for your advice ! In this video: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3rHXo2riM2Ifa8 I'm trying to solve the problem with Saito FG60R3 uneven firing with CHIgnition flange with reallocated magnets. unfortunately, this doesn't helps so much, engine still have unacceptable vibration level. Changing ignition to the glow , based on OS G5 type glow plugs makes more positive changes in engine's behavior, especially on idle. For me such changes becomes clear confirmation with engine's timing. So, something wrong with cam gear timing, I think. Thank you very much and have a nice day !

[@mpojr]

Satio engines are and have always Been tricky to set up and that is why After 40 years of rc l have come to Realize its hard to beat os max

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your comments ! Absolutely agreed with you ! Thank you and have a nice day !

[@antoniomoura9347]

Too late for my engine FG 60R3! The third cylinder broke!

[@crazyengines88]

Hi, what's a pity, Sir. Probably, it could be repaired ? And what kind of problem appeared ? Something with cylinder surface ?

[@antoniomoura9347]

@@crazyengines88 Design error in most of these engines (maldistribution of ignition) Now 450 Euros

[@crazyengines88]

@@antoniomoura9347 Understand. Definitely, I've no plans to install this on any plane, don't want to invest more money, it becomes amazingly overpriced.

[@antoniomoura9347]

@@crazyengines88 Repair cost as equivalent of 1/3 of the cost of the engine

[@crazyengines88]

Hi, it's a very pity news, sorry. What exactly was broken ? Cylinder surface ? Or valve seats ?

[@ikhalid1]

Also talk to them on phone and discuss

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you for your comment ! Have a nice day !

[@martintruszkowski1825]

That engine is set way to rich on the low setting makes it run bad lean it off! My fg90 runs on all 3 cylinders with the timing mod.

[@crazyengines88]

Thank you very much for your comment and for advise given, will take it into account.