Creating Dramatic/Tragic D&D Villains

[@jgr7487]

DM: makes a flawed & vulnerable villain Party: finds it adorable & ends up allying with the "bad guy"

[@ZipperonDisney]

knowing player...yeah, that's what's gonna happen...

[@jgr7487]

@@ZipperonDisney knowing players, it's expected that some will just accept the BBEG's treasure & let'em leave.

[@anthonynorman7545]

My brother's table decided to turn on the militia they were scouting on the behalf of because the villain (a literal embodiment of evil with no grey area) didn't attack them on sight and asked them nicely to murder their allies. No magic, no items, no rolls. They slaughtered them, and wound up with an oathbreaker paladin and the evil cleric subclass in the party. You never know what players will do.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@Natasel I see where you're coming from, but the villain, who has slaughtered thousands (ritual reduced power currently), simply said "I know you're here to kill me. I don't want to die. Please kill the people following after you." That's a crazy low bar.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@Natasel that's part of the ludicrousness; the villain didn't offer any rewards! The party of 4/5 good characters killed the militia of the town that had hired them (well the evil one was forced to because he was in jail for theft) after the villain's goons attacked because the incarnate of evil said "please."

[@BobWorldBuilder]

The villain's pride could also be displayed if they ASSUME they've slayed the party: bring a building down around them, burn down the town they're in, or otherwise play out a tpk - but the party "wakes up" in the ruins, an infirmary, or by some divine influence. Basically, let that BBEG wipe the floor with them, but the party lives to tell the tale and seek revenge - maybe them get a reputation like "the boy who lived" and now their very existence in a blemish on the villain's reputation!

[@ZipperonDisney]

Awesome idea Bob! Thanks for sharing :)

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

Bob World Builder very nice

[@maniacbanana9431]

I think unstoppable villains have their place and don't take away from the tension. All of the tension in the original Terminator comes from how completely unstoppable this robot is.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Good point! Especially if you're starting out at lower levels

[@denniscastello504]

The palantírs in the Lord of the Rings were known to always show the truth, they could not be made to lie or show false images, yet every character that used one during the course of the story (Denethor, Saruman, and Sauron) drew the wrong conclusions from what they saw and it led to their downfall. This has always stuck with me, and I think it ties in nicely to your topic here, as villains are blinded by own greed or fears and can be mislead (the way Aragorn misled Sauron) or they can misinterpret or misunderstand what the PCs are doing. Personally I've never been a fan of those super genius villains who seem to know everything that's going on and outsmart the heroes at every turn. Instead, I love it when Villains make mistakes or make plans based on faulty assumptions. And it creates a great moment when the PCs finally realize that the villain has made a mistake -- their staff is too short and they're digging in the wrong place!

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thanks for bringing up the planatirs! That is another great example! And the Indy things too - having the baddies make a mistake, and the heroes realize it, creates some dramatic tension as the heroes now how a fleeting opportunity to act before the villain realizes their error

[@ZipperonDisney]

Yes, that is Belichick's hand I used for an example of a greedy villain with jeweled rings on every finger

[@BeyondTheScreenRPG]

Send the villain to a cursed treasure? Brilliant! I love your descriptions.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thank you! I really dug your inspiration vid!

[@BeyondTheScreenRPG]

@@ZipperonDisney Thank you 😁 I'm glad you liked it! I have a feeling you are really going to enjoy the next video which will be uploaded in a week. It's about describing scenes and I feel like it's my best one so far.

[@axbx7139]

Yet another way to make "villain doesn't kill heroes" okay: Villain commands to kill heroes to one of his men and leave, underestimating the heroes' abilities. PCs defeat minion and then seek revenge Very simple, but it's something that happens in real life

[@ZipperonDisney]

Good example! Thanks for sharing :)

[@Bloob4242]

I really love your videos & appreciate the time and thought that you must put into them. Thank you!

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thanks for watching! I try really, really hard not to put out crap :)

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

Bloob4242 absolutely

[@fbobmosdal]

Parasitology, Lovecraft, and Biochemistry: your players are so screwed.

[@ZipperonDisney]

And 'No worse Enemy' is about the Marine Corps infantry!

[@colsenthissell1012]

One of my friends is a college student taking Parasite Ecology... He is also a DM. I pity his players

[@dyslegein]

Our hero's lay wounded on the floor... the villain stepping by the bodies of his foes selects a character, (the 'leader,' the 'heart,' or just a beloved npc). They prop them up in full view of everyone and sink their blade into their guts... the villain then waltzes over to our heroes bloodied sword and hand and speaks plain as anything. 'Tell everyone what you saw here today... tell them_' Tell them crushing rebellion is so tedious? Tell them their deaths serve our dark God? Tell them a new power is growing in the world?

[@jgr7487]

Villain: "I could kill you guys now, but you aren't worth my time and effort." Party: "mk" Villain: "but you are worth [lieutenant]'s. Kill them!" Party: "ohhh crepe!"

[@ZipperonDisney]

Love it!!

[@Andrew-ih2gz]

Bbeg:"Luckily for you, Gorthak seems to be a bit peckish. Please do give him a show. He doesn't get out of his cage much these days." Bbeg: *Releases the Kraken*

[@OffbrandGandalf]

"Sinful qualities are an impediment to long-term gains." Yep. That's my excuse at the gym.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Donuts are concentrated, manifest evil. And sweating is exorcism!

[@ameier5570]

Actually the easiest way to make a good villain is to remember that every villain is the hero of his own story. A good villain has a goal that makes perfect sense for him and rationalised it to a degree that he is at least "not the bad guy". Greedy? I earned that money for the service i did for the people. Arogant? All i did i did for good, its not my fault the people don't see the truth and have to be brought in line. Ruthless? I do what has to be done to reach a greater good.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Great comment 😎 Thanks for those examples too

[@Camcak3s]

Another good one is the anti-villain. Someone like a paladin willing to do whatever it takes to save everyone. A orphanage full of children and puppies? I'm trying to save ALL of them. Killing one orphanage won't be too bad. THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS for anti-villains.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Ooooo I like this! And their downfall comes when their former companions realize that the anti-villain is too far down the path of evil and turn from them

[@satellitesam2198]

@Natasel maybe there's a sickness spreading through one orphange and rather than look for a cure, this villain says to burn it to the ground so it doesn't spread.

[@moogamooga2100]

Terrific advice!! Very advanced and EXACTLY what I was looking for.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Glad you found it useful!

[@CogsofCogitation]

Curse of Strahd exhibits this well. Instead of just a 7 deadly sin type of flaw, Strahd's love for a woman is his downfall. He will do anything to have her, but the fates have willed it impossible due to his dark corrupted nature. Instead of this just being a flaw for the players to abuse, it's also a flaw in his character that makes the players feel for the villain as we all have had that special someone that we clung onto too hard.

[@ZipperonDisney]

And it's a trait they can manipulate Strahd with

[@an8strengthkobold360]

The way I had the "I don't need to kill you" worl because my villian doesn't want or need to kill the players. They aren't a threat to him, they're an experiment. Killing them would end the experiment leaving him with nothing.

[@GrimBrotherIV]

How am I just now finding this channel!? Fantastic stuff, mate. About to binge the backlog.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Glad the algorithm smiled upon you! You might also like my Science vs Magic vid 😁

[@stalebread2997]

Finding your channel was the best thing that could happen to me! Kehaha, time to claim the #1 DM Crown in my friend group!

[@ZipperonDisney]

Good luck!

[@DungeonDad]

Sweet video man! Keep up the awesome work.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thanks! I've been a following of your channel since the beginning! It's awesome to see how much it's grown

[@wisecounsle9136]

this is such a mind blowing video. please just keep pumping out this thought inspireing content

[@ZipperonDisney]

I'm so glad you liked it!! I've had this vid half done for months and finally decided to push it out :)

[@brandonvaughan4236]

Great video. Can't wait for the project announcement.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Awesome! Teaser: imgur.com/gallery/RhXOiA6

[@brandonvaughan4236]

@@ZipperonDisney I was hoping this was the direction you were going in. :)

[@MrAszak]

Hey, just wanted to let you know I'm really enjoying your videos, hope you keep it up! Looking forward to the project.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thank you!!

[@Maninawig]

There is one magical item that I think works best for either the flawless BBEK or why the BBEG lets the paladin live... the Crown of Wilderness. With this item, even the flawless hero of destiny can instantly be turned to the dark side, leaving them (be is PC or villain) to betray their friends and sit upon the cursed thrown while never losing that Heroe's plot armour that your party normally uses to win....

[@alatar221]

Awesome Video! Looking forward to seeing more videos from you

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thank you!Be on the look out, I post polls sometimes to ask about what the next topic should be.

[@The482075]

What if the player characters are busy taking care of the villain's enemies? The villain hasn't engaged the player characters because the player characters are taking out useful enemies. Doing so makes the villain stronger since there is less competition. However, the villain is arrogant enough to think that they can broker some sort of truce with the player characters. The villain is an adept puppet master who thinks that they can manipulate anyone. The player characters are not so easy to manipulate. They have left the player character's crusade unchecked and now the player characters have become powerful too.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Great idea! I love where your head's at!

[@anthonynorman7545]

Probably my favorite type of villain to DM. You never know if the party will take the pay day/truce.

[@le1897]

This is fantastic, thank you !

[@ZipperonDisney]

So glad you liked it!

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Good video and good ideas

[@ZipperonDisney]

Thanks! This vid is one of my favorites :)

[@tombombadil9529]

I really appreciate your unique perspective on gaming, but can’t get over the fact that you think Grateful Dead makes shit music. They may not be your cup o’ tea, but songs like West LA Fadeaway, Shakedown Street, France, Sugar Magnolia, and Bertha all have beautiful grooves and evoke vivid imagery. Kid Rock is shit music. Grateful Dead is legendary. GOD DAMMIT I JUST CANT GET OVER IT 😆 I know it’s petty, but that’s the only reason I haven’t subscribed. How can I trust a guy that wears tye dye on EVERY video, but ... Otherwise, your content is extremely well thought out and very useful. Thank you for your hard work. A+

[@ZipperonDisney]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love the Grateful Dead. Did you not see my pickin' Ripple on the banjo? They definitely have some great songs and Jerry was a fantastic performance guitarist. And check this: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qHSylWugodmHaLc (it was actually Further, but still...)

[@2000TalesRolePlaying]

Another great video

[@Frederic_S]

I can’t make my players exploit my villains weaknesses. They always are more willing to believe that the BBG is too powerful for them anyway so they don’t do any experiments on how they can defeat them other translating a MacGuffin over theBBEGs head. I will try to let a mentor NPC say something along those lines. Maybe they will try something other than stabbing the Dark Lord with the magic sword in the last session of the campaign for once.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Maybe have the mentor suggest the BBEG really is too powerful to defeat through conventional means, and suggest that they need to be tricked. Then have the mentor ask the party what they know about the BBEG's personality and behavior

[@Sparkle5fanboy]

Your confusing Greed with Glutonny. Greed is by definition lack of kindness and fills your ruthlessness out better.

[@anthonynorman7545]

I agree that a gluttonous villian would pursue coins too close to lava while a greedy one would not. How is hoarding or not parting with material possessions neccessarily equivalent to lacking kindness?

[@Sparkle5fanboy]

@@anthonynorman7545 Think of Ebenezer Scrooge. He was a Greedy man who valued money over the well-being and concern of others. A Gluttonous villain would dive after the coins while a Greedy Villain would stop and make his subordinates go and fetch the coins. Or Rather doesn't care how they get what they want and who they have to get rid of to do it thus Ruthlessness.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@Sparkle5fanboy I know that greed is wanting more stuff while gluttony is not resisting getting stuff. But why is greed neccessarily lacking kindness while gluttony is not? Don't both villains care about stuff more than people?

[@Sparkle5fanboy]

@@anthonynorman7545 gluttony is to never be satisfied with what you have. It very confusing and it took me a long time to realize that too. Greed is doing what you want for the sake of what you want which can mean hording treasure or even stealing it from others. Gluttony is getting hundreds of gifts and wanting more and more regardless of what they are. Greed is getting something specific like a girl taking another girls doll because of her love for dolls. Not sharing her own dolls. Or even taking the last doll that available in the store for herself. She wants all the dolls exorcise and wants them all for herself without caring about how she gets them or even giving the notion of Sharing.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@Sparkle5fanboy thanks for your effort. I still don't see it, but thank you for trying.

[@snapshot79]

Of course the villain needs to fail, if he wins the campaign ends. In my campaigns the villain is very strong but has a few weak spots which must be exploited to best him. One part of the story is to find out the weak spot, the next part is to get the means to exploit the weaknesd and finally overcome the villain. In one campaign we had a wizard villain who always teleported away once it gets dangerous for him. But the players found a legend about „the spear of time“. This spear can be thrown at the location somebody teleported from and it would follow the villain, hit him and teleport him back. You should have seen the satisfaction of the players when they finally caught the villain after so many failed attempts.

[@ZipperonDisney]

Excellent! Thanks for sharing :)

[@anthonynorman7545]

How does one distinguish pride from hubris in a villian? Pride was covered then hubris was mentioned in the list of other flaws.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@Natasel I think your definition of hubris is the definition of arrogance. Hubris is like having the gal to do something because one believes themselves to be special, gifted, talented , or etc. I don't see how hubris can be separated from pride when discussing a villain's flaw.

[@anthonynorman7545]

@Natasel right, but if he's lacking confidence then he's not being prideful nor having hubris. Doesn't hubris turn into desperation or brashness if one is not prideful?

[@tobiasholm2717]

4:49 Stalin could've used this advice

[@tombombadil9529]

I’m playing in an adult, all male cast, D&D group. As it turns out, our wives are the most reliable reoccurring villains. They are a cunning brood of killjoys.

[@MediumDon]

Ok boomer

[@dieselsstreamarchive]

"aravice" ....avarice?

[@ZipperonDisney]

d'oh! I think I let a "desilute" peasants slip in too...

[@anthonynorman7545]

@@ZipperonDisney 😬 yeah, but a great video nonetheless!