The State of Power Creep in PVZ2

[@Adonisius]

The problem is that PVZ devs have run out of ideas for plants. They're no longer creating new plants, most of the newer plants they add are just more powerful versions of previous vanilla plants. They're just recycling a plants general purpose and reskinning it with a amped abilities.

[@larrymantic2635]

Hell, the literally introduced Scaredy-Shroom, who’s just the PVZ1 version unfortunately.

[@SayShelo]

Well if they went tropical plants and fruits then they'd have even more choices

[@aloe7794]

@@SayShelo It's less so about the general ideas for the plants and more so about what they can offer as a strategy The entire thing is, is Scaredy Shroom really that different than the Peashooter? The game just won't be fun anymore if they keep reinventing the wheel just so they can put a new seedium in the Arena as a reward. It kind of feels like they're just trying to milk a dead cow at this point with PvZ2 as a whole

[@Squeakybro]

They need to take notes from pvz2 china

[@foxizm]

and the reskins are even not looking great

[@kartoffua4998]

There is a reason why almost every pvz2 mod removes or completely reworks the leveling mechanic

[@Mr.Brothybear]

like what kind of Mods?

[@shinhikaru]

​@@Mr.BrothybearReflourished where they removed the Leveling System and Altverz making it a more balanced, simpler, and also only premium plants that can be leveled up and that premium plant cost coins to begin with.

[@shinhikaru]

@levichicwown9760 that's why Reflourished also balanced the plants as well. They nerfed the overpowered plants while buffing the underpowered plants, not only that they don't add all the plants from vanilla PvZ2 and also both importing and reworking PvZ2C plants like Cattail, Fanilla, and Void Orchid.

[@jdg6192]

​@levichicwown9760 Rockpuncher's health is nerfed to the ground and it's equal to it's normal counterpart in reflourished

[@F0UR3V3R]

@@shinhikaru From what I remember of Eclise, it also has levels. The levels make the plants sidegraded, not necessarily upgraded.

[@MysteryMusic512]

My biggest problem isn’t that the new plants destroy vanilla, basically all premiums can do that, but that new enemies are built around being even stronger than the new plants to “counter them” making them stupidly powerful to the point where hard mode in Penny’s Pursuit is laughably bad. They should just nerf the plants instead of building awful levels around them.

[@MysteryMusic512]

Also, I don’t think the devs are even taking vanilla levels and such into much consideration anymore, rather designing the plants around being meta in the arena mode, which causes obvious issues.

[@chermal7311]

Honestly, I can agree with you there. When it comes to zombies they really fall a bit in that area. @@MysteryMusic512

[@sonicrunn3r895]

I REALLYYYY hate how Penny's Pursuit handles difficulty. Instead of giving you more dangerous threats, it makes it so zombies are basically next to indestructible except to instas. Sometimes even tanking multiple instas (making primal potato mine and other instas the only viable strategy basically). The ONLY way they managed to counter Pokra was by breaking the balance of the entire game.

[@poodcake]

They got rid of spring bean plant food and blover combination and replaced it with Reinforcemint and blover witch is the same thing except you have to grind for hours to get Reinforcemint see what I mean pay to win

[@kendukin9725]

@@poodcake hilarious that theyd keep the glitch in tact with literally every method except the one involving the otherwise useless plant. You can also grind Stalia to level 5 when it deals knockback and essentially turn it to a free cherrybomb but stronger. Basically required without emptying your wallet for Penny's Pursuit. Even with boosted zen garden plants, even the medium difficulty can be absurd. It's so bad.

[@astralguardian5930]

I think the PvZ2 Leveling really brings to mind a Syndrome quote "If everyone is super, then no one is."

[@memeboi69-k3v]

So true

[@greatparmesan9761]

I was thinking that too, in fact I ended up looking for it after this video!

[@ALongAndLowTide]

Just like feminism "if everyone's super, noone will be"

[@dan_the_swag_man6937]

​@@ALongAndLowTideThe fuck does that mean?

[@NeostormXLMAX]

Except leveling is pay to win, since getting levels is almost impossible as a f2p since you need tons of duplicate seed packets

[@eatmayo24]

On the levels where you prepare a defense before the level, you can just put a primal potato mine on every tile and it’ll win a lot of those levels

[@minhducnguyen9276]

Much to my surprise, there are sometimes less zombies on those levels than I expected. Primal potato mines only probably can be viable.

[@DLN_0.5]

Yes, but you get Primal Potato Mine near the end of Jurassic Marsh, the next world has water and underground plants can't be planted on Lily Pads, and then Modern Day has no Last Stand levels. I get your point, but i don't think PPM is the problem

[@majorfender6054]

I just did this for a beat EXTRA HARD x levels quest, was not dissapointed 😂

[@OhCrapI_He]

Primal Potato Mine is laughably powerful

[@lmva]

the reveal of the overpowered effects of levelled up plants was masterfully done, really got me emotionally invested

[@nouvellelune8699]

Not even a minute into the video and what's basically its entire point is shown stunningly well...

[@chopperbrosadvance9760]

To be fair it's not a hard point to get across, the video could be "this plant bad, this plant good and cheaper" and it could end there

[@szymon200000]

@@chopperbrosadvance9760yeah, and loss all nuance

[@damienearl8302]

@@chopperbrosadvance9760 Yeah, but I wouldn't really call that an effective and engaging way to get the point across

[@thatoneguy9582]

local youtuber commenter discovers what an intro is

[@iontopia2425]

😊​@@szymon200000

[@ItzAstrea]

Pvz2 players: I cant wait for my somewhat balanced pvz2 game! Arena plants:

[@SleepyNinja27]

"are you sure about that?"

[@omgdin]

Nah just arena mode in general there's nothing balanced

[@foxinabox5103]

​​@@omgdinbuckethead tanking an insta moment Oh wait nvm, thats penny pursuit

[@RevenantNeverDies]

i dont like arena its too hard for me to beat anyone with more plants than me and that means i have to pay for cool plants like the mint plants. i like the design of the mint plants but too hard to get and they not balance@@marioplex5841

[@razorback9999able]

PvZ2 gameplay integrity: I have to go now, my planet needs me

[@lilythebluespheresfan2897]

The Bloomerang - Laser Bean example is hilarious because I remember back then trailers and teasers showed off so much about this cool new plant, Bloomerang. Additionaly funnier considering Far Future was also in development with the original devs that released the first three worlds.

[@onepieceazz]

Poor bloomerang

[@Kribyking]

I’d say like 25% of dark ages was also developed by the original team too. At least that world didn’t have power creep…

[@samyl9579]

​@@Kribyking Sun-Shroom.

[@usernametaken017]

@@Kribyking Puff shroom outclasses every single vanilla cheap attacker fym "no powercreep"

[@Kribyking]

Oh damn… guess dark ages did power creep…

[@oak3ns]

I like how the only thing that can power creep harder than Pokra is a better, higher level Pokra

[@abadminecraftplayer]

The only thing that beats pokra is pokra

[@purplevanilla]

​@@abadminecraftplayernightcap>>

[@Proximitytwo]

Now we have ice-shroom 💀🔥💯

[@tarakmandal3614]

@@Proximitytwo it’s not even good

[@tarakmandal3614]

@@purplevanilla nightcap does less damage doesn’t have infinite pierce less attack speed less dps u get it

[@RGC_animation]

I find it funny that the literal introduction level to leveling where the game shows you how 1 lvl. 20 Peashooter can beat many lvl. 1 Repeater already shows how dumb the leveling system is.

[@Ben-fp2yc]

it was lvl 10 i think

[@Stickxcs]

@@Ben-fp2ycyour right it’s level 10

[@hyper1-k6f]

Maxed Pea costs 25 sun does 110 dmg So for 100 sun aka the amount lv 1 pea costs So for 100 sun you can get 20 dps from lv 1 pea 440 dps from maxed AND LETS IGNORE MASTARY

[@YanceyX223]

​@@Ben-fp2yc It was level 20 initially, then they changed it to 10 in a newer level

[@DR_OF_DEATH]

They are more powerful than a maxed out pea pod

[@f2progamer80]

The final portion of the video was strangely cathartic. Hearing someone who knows PvZ well absolutely shred apart the leveling system is a great experience. Also, I don’t know much about early PvZ2 since I was just a clueless child playing the Chinese version that still contained multi path maps over international back then, so thank you for giving light on the early meta’s development.

[@SyrisDuhVyris]

Yea i got back into this game like 2 years ago and it took me just recently (such as playing penny's pursuit and arena) to find out how the leveling system is what destroyed this game. Now it's genuinely so easy to cheat for unlocking every plant and upgrade them to max level (which i've done), and even when ignoring every microtransaction by doing so, the game still manages to be boring due to it's lack of difficulty. I currently play the refloureshed version and am curious about the Chinese version, as i've seen none of it.

[@lisatroiani6119]

@@SyrisDuhVyris the chinese versions leveling system is much better, as its cap isn’t 20, it’s 5, and all (or at least most) the upgrades feel substantial because of that. they even have a preview window where you can see the changes it makes to the plants!

[@adamxue6096]

@@lisatroiani6119 If only the chinese version isn't riddled with its own sleuth of massive issues... Like, what in the world is costume plant food abilities, and then you have artifacts... Also, a lot of grade 5 chinese plants gets so obscenely powerful compared to 0 grade, that it still doesn't actually solve the issue with levelling in general. Not to say a lot of plants is automatically less viable because they don't have their grade 5s yet. And some of the abilities they gain are... very questionable at best. But yes, I do think the chinese version had a better concept for what levelling should be more like, the execution however is a bit all over the place. In general strictly gaining levelling should still just not be a thing, PvZ still isn't good for that, and would be way better if it was a tradeoff system, like some mods increasing costs after "levelling"

[@lisatroiani6119]

@@adamxue6096 tbf, it’s been a while since i’ve played the chinese version

[@adamxue6096]

@@lisatroiani6119 Very understandable

[@cosmikdymond]

Creeps spends 30 minutes explaining why all his vanilla clips have "lvl 1" next to all seed packets

[@teriso1793]

Because its more fun

[@Peashooterrealtrust]

Cause overlevel plants are just completely unbalance.

[@countsudoku6305]

because leveling system is just disgusting

[@doritos4956]

Because I wipe my butt after taking a crap and put it in a code and it would still be better than the level system

[@nobodyimportant281]

Because leveling up marked up the downfall of PVZ2

[@Rainstar1234]

cant believe creeps20 made a video about power creeps20 that is insane

[@vgkharryd]

No way someone also made a joke about it

[@MysteryMusic512]

@@vgkharrydno way it’s a very obvious joke to make

[@vgkharryd]

@@MysteryMusic512 no way that was a very common response

[@vgkharryd]

@@T.-._. no way that’s the community’s common opinion

[@vgkharryd]

@@T.-._. no way

[@minefrac1]

I think the Risk of Rain 2 music during the leveling section was a really accurate choice. While the different Survivors in RoR2 are different enough to still keep their identities further on into a run, there really comes a point where it doesn't matter a whole lot which one you chose. They'll all be absurdly powerful far enough into the run, sometimes to the point where you can just AFK. But I feel the reason that that's okay in RoR2 is the simple fact that it's a roguelite. Those absurd stats and items only last until you die, and the game is balanced around being quick and maybe skipping some items each stage by having the enemies become stronger over time, whereas PvZ2's leveling is permanent, and the main game isn't well-balanced around leveling plants.

[@neevko267]

It also works from a lore perspective in RoR2, where the more powerful you become, the less "human" you are, the less your individuality comes into play, because now you're barely human in that pile of stuff you've accumulated around you

[@RevenantNeverDies]

guys hes talking about the unbalanced game about surviving a apocalypse with gardeing tools and sentient plants. wrong kind of apocalypse game

[@angel_of_rust]

only roguelikes make being broken a positive

[@tachikomagaming2451]

@@angel_of_rust its balanced by fact that the win condition shifts to being so powerful that game crashes

[@m4rcyonstation93]

Also ror2 is still pretty well balanced in the sense that if you go to mithrix immediately your character still feels totally unique

[@jinx3241]

27:07 I was walking while listening to this video and when I heard that Tile Turnip loses its scaling I fucking stood there with my jaw open bc that sounds so ridiculously overpowered omg

[@witchhazel415]

Yep, at max level the first 3 tiles are free and the rest only costs 200 sun. Max level Tile Turnip can effortlessly cover the whole board.

[@wyattchristensen608]

Fr bro same! My jaw dropped so hard. Like the increase in price essentially capped the amount you could have, like it’s just barely good enough to use… but without the cost increase, it’s the most broken thing ever.

[@lefishe5845]

Screw you!

[@TheRedStinger82]

I agree with this video entirely There's a reason why I hate plants like mega gatling pea

[@Muhammad_Nuruddin]

Mega gattling pea isn’t the main issue. It’s pea vine.

[@gumigumi6692]

i personally dont mind mega gatling because at least it looks like a pvz plant, so many of the new plants are just plain ugly af

[@TheRedStinger82]

@@Muhammad_Nuruddin what I hate the most about it, is the automatic plant food effect…

[@Ben-fp2yc]

@@TheRedStinger82 the thing i hate about it is rng, peavine is a peashooter that buffs peas on top of it for 25 more sun, torch wood is a peashooter plant, it is more broken than mega gatling pea

[@TheRedStinger82]

@@Ben-fp2yc I hate both equally. Peavine for the longest time was my least favorite plant in the game.

[@haospacman1084]

Before I switched to modded pvz 2, I was playing Vanilla with leveled plants. My friend who has not played pvz since the first game saw me decimate everything, grab the money bag at the end, and said that at this point the zombies should be getting the money bag

[@LordofdeLoquendo]

He was right.

[@jossuecabrera8611]

Im glad mods can do something very unique to each buff and nerf of a plant, making them offer something to the game instead of just making every new plant a direct upgrade of another plant that youd have to grind for. Also, i always imagined headbutter lettuce as the "kernel pult" of bonk choy. Never thought it was too powerful until now. (But then again, i never played with it) Also also, at least now we have rental plants to make the mainline game more fun to play. People seem to ignore this feature while i think its probably one of the best features. It allows you to play with plants you'd never play with otherwise and its entirely optional. Yes, it uses ads, but i think it makes it even better since it discourages players to just bring pokra to every level without grinding for it. It even allows me to buy banana launcher early, making the game a lot more fun.

[@Goallpeashooters]

This video came out at just the right time! I have just gotten back into pvz2, and I decided to grind for the current arena plant. When I watched ZackScott's video on the plant, I was shocked and dumbfounded at how something so OP had gotten in game. Thank you for the explanation!

[@LazrBG]

One plant that i'm honestly impressed that didn't got mentioned is Turkey-pult. This thing was so broken that it could crash the game and it was one of the only plants that got nerfed in the entire game and it still insanely broken to this day.

[@fresanegra77]

What happened with it? Haven't played pvz2 in a long time

[@LazrBG]

@@fresanegra77 Basically before it was nerfed the turkeys used to stack on top of zomboss, this used to do so much damage that it would drain zomboss whole life in seconds. Now the turkeys die after like 3 seconds after doing some damage to zomboss.

[@fresanegra77]

@@LazrBG damn, that's the definition of op and phone destroyer

[@SpicyInk]

What I like about leveling is that it allows plants who previously were underpowered or useless to be used a bit more but the issue with this is that this also applies to broken plants. One thing I apreciate atleast is that premium seed packets are a bit harder to get than base game but this doesn't completely fix things (and besides I think leveling should stop for every plant at max level 10 cuz stats after level 5 are just busted no matter the plant)

[@hyper1-k6f]

Pea goes from 20 dps for 100 To 110 dps for 25

[@660nj]

love the leveling slander 🔥🔥🔥

[@onepieceazz]

Lvling is trash

[@mr.jitterspam9552]

Isn't even interesting like in pvz2 Chinese, where every level has something different

[@thepizzaman6310]

Incredible choice of music for the levelling section. Accompanies your point that "levelling is the pinnacle of powercreep", and is my favorite ROR2 song, if not one of my favorites of all time.

[@blakksheep736]

What is it called?

[@BenjaminButonn]

Havent played pvz2 in 6th months, absolutly adore these vids nevertheless

[@teriso1793]

Let me correct smthing "Haven't played pvz2 in 6 months, absolutely love these videos nonetheless"

[@BenjaminButonn]

@@teriso1793 Okay kung fu panda

[@_V.Va_]

@@teriso1793Let me correct something. "Let me correct something."

[@oceans6517]

@@teriso1793you abbreviated wrong

[@purplevanilla]

​@@teriso1793whats the difference between nevertheless and nonetheless?

[@thatonegal32]

Start of the video: interesting and informative Middle of the video: Mental breakdown about pokra End of the video: Interesting and informative

[@aloe7794]

I absolutely had not expected the ending, but nothenless I agree with what you said about it It kind of makes me sad knowing what this game had become fully being aware of the fact that it used to be much different several years ago, when I played it as a child

[@aubreyathame]

showing bloomerang's jester interaction as "jank" is a sin frankly it's not taking damage from being hit by its boomerang...because it's a boomerang.. they're MEANT to come back

[@blacksuit4738]

Pokra is the designated "Man, fuck this level" button

[@lizzybach4254]

Omg, that was literally me during my first playthrough of the game.

[@DaNoob1485]

I really wish the devs add a feature to De-Level plants some day. Or just remove leveling from adventure mode all together and only keep it for Arena and Penny’s Pursuit. Would definitely replay levels more if either of those were the case. But sadly, with new plants such as Bamboo Spartan, a Plant with the damage of Pokra, DPS of Headbutter Lettuce, that can also survive 1 smash from a Gargantuar at level 1, AND will get stronger after said smash. As well as the up-coming Buffs to Tomb Tangler and Levitater that gives them both a 50% chance to insta kill zombies. (which makes Levitater in particular a cheap, decently fast recharge, stalling, arguably better version of Electric Blueberry) I highly doubt we’ll get to De-Level any time soon.

[@AidanDaGreat]

Yeah. And even besides that people must have spent so much cash on piñatas and such that getting rid of leveling will nullify their purchases.

[@flandechocolate9675]

I remember a few years ago when i downloaded the game, i immediatly wanted to buy the electric peashooter because it was pretty cheap, after that i swept trough the whole damn game with just one plant

[@jerungbiru55]

Same with me after buying caulipower

[@Aterrariacake]

Honestly after sundew’s release i just quit and played mods the game wasn’t fun anymore due to A. The power creep and how it made everything unfun and B. The game is dying is quality

[@mayonasepizza]

The greatest thing is that you can actually cheese yourself a pokra as a ftp using the shop that pops up from the rent a plant feature

[@Ben-fp2yc]

its just 100 seed packets so all you have to do that is get it 10 times

[@mayonasepizza]

@@Ben-fp2yc yup

[@shyamakpal]

Wait how do u do that? I just started the replaying the game and I have like none of the new plants

[@mayonasepizza]

@@shyamakpal when in a level, at the bottom right corner when selecting plants, you can rent a plant then you reset the level until desired one appears and you play the level with it, then it gives you an option to buy seed with coins, then just repeat until you get the needed seeds (This takes tens of thousands of coins)

[@Ben-fp2yc]

play a choose you seed or laststand level and next to the start level button, youll find a rent plant option, you'll get 3 options, premium, seedium and adventure, if you completed a category, you wont get anymore of that category. winning grants you 1 free seed packet or 2 tens that can be bought by gems or coins the more of one plant you choose the rarer it gets@@shyamakpal

[@SheLikesLoons]

the fact i watch Plants vs zombies 2 video essays by a small channel whilst not playing pvz2 in years and never even beating the game, and still enjoy the breakdown of the game says a lot of the content :3

[@nneykobar_hali]

The state of pover creep by creep majorly about creep... Magestic.

[@Otherface]

I always though that the level system was when the franchise started to go trought a downfall. No, not just pvz2, but pvz in general. There were some issues before, yes, but it was at that point when Popcap lose their mind. Even in future games we would see some broken stuff that barely got fixed (Toxic Brainz in Gw2, Fruit Cake in Heroes, Brainium Basher in Bfn, and so on). And something tells me it will come back to pvz3.

[@jdg6192]

Fruitcake can still backfire for zombies if they get dragon fruit

[@Otherface]

​​@@jdg6192the problem is that the current meta is way too fast for dragonfuit to appear, so most of the time you just lose while trying to reach it. Heck, most of the fruits aren't a threat to begin with. The worst you might give to your oponent are either Dragonftuit or Captain Cucumber, and the last one is kinda vulnerable to removal.

[@ToastedButters]

The issue with removing Fruitcake is that then many plants become very hard to remove (tricarrotops, wingnut, aloe), so zombies would pretty much have to run sneaky class for pogo. Fruitcake isn't even that good. Many plant decks, like Cyclecap, Pineclones, or Ringzilla make it do literally nothing.

[@catherinevo6060]

@@ToastedButters Some of those plants need small nerfs, and even then, stuff like aloe or pecan do not need nerfs, they were fine if not bad (looking at aloe) when fruitcake was not used before. You can nerf fruitcake so it is not absurd Crazy class 2 cost remove a plant, while buffing other really bad Zombie removal (80% of them) as compensation. (Surprising, I know!!!) How is fruitcake bad when it still see play in even the most recent Crazy class decks? I think it was a 3x in a deck that was being tested but I am not sure.

[@jdg6192]

​@catherinevo6060 fruitcake is almost balnced just make it 6 damage unlike plants who has shamrocket and doom-shroom who can wreck the zombie board with almost to no risks sure doom kills your plants but you can just build a three attack deck or play doom-shroom before placing plant minions

[@juliennouvot7342]

You know, I remember cheering about an interview where PVZ1's lead dev decided to not work on PVZ2 because he said that he couldn't imagine a way to adapt PVZ's model to microtransactions. Leveling makes his statement absolutely right.

[@youtubeuser6725]

Their plan was to release pvz3. After its flop, they probably didn't have a plan B so they're pressured trying to keep pvz 2 alive. Not necessarily an excuse but i guess an explanation on why pvz2 isn't fun anymore

[@cheddar1967]

after playing through pvz2 a few times using cheats to max level every plant (minus premiums) in the game, i totally agree. some plants just completely lose their purpose. yeah, peashooter costs 25 sun at max level, but why does it matter when a max level primal sunflower gives 250 sun per proc, and you can just place a max level mega gatling pea that one shots bucketheads for 200 sun? or use boom balloon flower that can place potato mine level explosives, stacked up to three per tile, every few seconds? ive done a lot of experimentation and it just devolves into "this plant will instakill everything better, faster and cheaper (although cost hardly matters with max level plants) than literally anything else. you can breeze through the game without breaking a sweat and even mess around because of how stupidly broken everything is. big wave beach, the hardest(?) world in the game can be beaten using only one row of primal sunflowers and two rows of mega gatling peas. torchwood is overkill, and pea vine is just turning off your brain. its sad.

[@ZIMOU2014]

i only use cheats to level plants cause i like seeing the cool projectiles they get when leveling up

[@rkade1486]

Never really played PVZ2, a couple years ago yeah, but now I just watch your videos and realize there's more insight into the game, still haven't picked it back up, so the suprize I got from Pokra in the beginning REALLY got me.

[@LiterallyAlive]

One interesting note, that the every gemiun plants wasn’t gemium until 6.2 update, expect Hurricale, Fire Peashoter and Homing Thistle, so yeaah

[@mr.productions327]

5.9 for shrinking violet, 6.0 for all of the other plants.

[@TheGreatPM1]

Simple solution since people constantly complain about the levelling system, just add a limit until you beat the game. Like Level 5 until you beat the final Zomboss

[@gsnakes8990]

I think the big problem of pvz 2 is the level mechanic especially in arena , you literally ALWAYS find one guy ruining the arena with pea vine + mega gatling pea + torchwood making millions of points , plus they make the game way too easy leading to most of the players being brainless

[@steponkusceponas4085]

This is exactly why I despise pvz2's arena: it's just a virtual dick measuring contest where skill stops mattering the moment you obtain some of the...less balanced options

[@peavuh]

the best plant for arena that i have is parsnip which has a strong pf and thats it and it managed to carry me a while but after pokra showed up i just quit arena

[@Smith-fg1qb]

I feel like the underlying issue that comes from people being brainless in arena is the zombies. The zombies are way too op in that mode, which is why very few strategies are even consistently good to use in arena

[@KarokeanHD]

zackscott's main strat be like:

[@someguy3267]

Hey Creeps I've got some bad news about the peak of Power Creep, Ice-shroom was brought back for nostalgia bait, and *some fucking how he managed to dethrone Pokra in damage and utility.*

[@daullee939]

Kid named Doom Shroom

[@negativeiquser5295]

Rule one of tower defense games: Never mix AoE, Freeze, and stun

[@characookie241]

Ice monkey from btd6:😐

[@negativeiquser5295]

@@characookie241 Fair, but most dangerous bloons resist it, plus it doesn't stack

[@RevenantNeverDies]

yeah but atleast they were smart enough to have a special interaction with fire and ice projectiles where if a ice pea hits somethign and thena fire attack hits it it cancels out

[@Ze_eT]

@@characookie241 It has the smallest range by far, said range being tied to AOE. Even just a humble Dart Monkey or Tack Shooter can outrange an Ice Monkey. In a game where every character has a range statistic and most towers have some sort of AOE or piercing that is directly aimed at the bloons, just having a small AOE that requires expensive upgrades to get to a proper permanent stun (which doesn't properly stun blimps) makes the ice tower pretty balanced.

[@everettw.9610]

One of the worst changes ever introduced was definitely leveling, and the dumb thing was it was just introduced terribly as well, considering that the system of leveling in the Chinese version power creeps20 much more similarly to base game world creep, and as a result feels much better, than the international version. That being said i do still level my plants because a) monkey brain like cool new power and b) it's part of what keeps me coming back regularly as I'm currently unable to use mods and the arena grind was never particularly interesting to me, which I have to assume is what Popcap intended. That being said, I wouldn't be doing my duty as a Clash Royale player if I didn't note just how absurd the leveling requirements are. Even getting from level 5 to level 6 (on a 20-lvl max plant) as a f2p player can take a month of solid playing, mostly due to the daily piñata limit and the lack of any other way to obtain seed packets. The introduction of leveling was so widely despised for being broken that it's often ignored for the other thing it is, which is a fairly shameless cash grab and desperate attempt to keep players going. Premium plants were often interesting but not necessary or even extremely powerful, as creeps noted. The game wasn't ever about collecting plants, so it wasn't that important, either. But with levelling, Popcap shifted the entire focus of the game for returning players - for many, if you've already completed the story (and can't access mods, as many can't), your main new option is to level up your plants. Which is next to impossible without spending an egregious sum of money. Honestly, even if leveling was still broken, if it was at least fun I could see it having its defenders. But even those who like leveling their plants hate the leveling update because it was a shameless cash grab that broke the game with poor planning and execution, and honestly probably hurt the game more than it helped. Also Creeps the way you pronounce Pokra causes me physical pain, it's literally a mix of Poke and Okra both of which are pronounced as "oh"

[@diegoizaguirre3452]

And for the fact the costumes do something more than esthetic and the levels beside the will use plant food sometimes have actual character, it’s still an unbalanced mess but it’s only corporate in the monitzation not the actual content.

[@gateofworlds4167]

honestly i find Primal Potato Mine to be one of the most powerful in arena. I end up using just him and all though he is weaken i'm still racking out hundreds of thousands points

[@KarokeanHD]

of course, he is the best free plants in the game and comparable to the other broken instant plants like teleportato mine, grapeshoot, puffball, etc...

[@scotterboi9]

What truly racks my brain is how people still think Iceberg Lettuce is an S Tier plant.

[@Ben-fp2yc]

they didnt get to frostbite caves yet

[@GDProxified]

People think that 0 sun plants = better plant (which is clearly not in a game that you can easily get a banana in wave 2-3)

[@GDProxified]

And people also think that freeze is better than stall, for some god dam reason

[@flandechocolate9675]

Maybe because it helps getting your initial row of sun producers without a zombie annoying you, still i think that would be easily B

[@scotterboi9]

​@@flandechocolate9675C at best

[@jeepmega629]

I got Pokra by playing the weekly challenge that gives you seeds for her, and I breezed by 10 levels in 3 different worlds (Ancient Egypt, Pirate Seas, and Modern Day) with her. I can’t imagine what she can do when leveled up.

[@SilkwormSamuelIsBack]

“So sit down and grab your popcorn.” Is it a coincidence that I was eating popcorn when he said that?

[@turkia6148]

The True Culprit part was the definition of 🔥✍

[@mr.lantern1111]

Man, that last part with the risk of rain music, listening to the sad downfall of the game through its obscene leveling mechanics, really got to me. It genuinely felt like we were lamenting the fact that nothing mattered anymore. All that’s left is just bigger and bigger numbers stretching into infinity.

[@frostycyan]

The worst part of leveling is that it takes AGES to ever max out every plant (let alone just one plant), with power mints being the most affordable one. And it gets even worse with the mastery cr*ps

[@Ben-fp2yc]

on my 3 months old f2p acc the highest level plant I got was puffshroom at level 7, but in just 2 days of afking pinata party by editing level code, i got a max level hocus crocus, i hate that the only way to get seed packets is to change game codeor spend thousands of gems just to max out 1 plant

[@bogdancoca681]

That con lentitud poderosa at the end gave me chills oh wow good job.

[@hiromuatakawa680]

PvZ 2 newer plants are so broken they make Doom Shroom look balanced...

[@aloe7794]

Hell, even doomshroom was sort of balanced because it was only available during the Night and its craters

[@hiromuatakawa680]

@@aloe7794 Well later on you got coffee bean so for 200 sun you cleared the map, which was great for long crowded levels like Survival Endless. I have played mods which increase it to 225 sun and it's still S tier

[@dangng7079]

@@hiromuatakawa680 try expansion doomshroom there is 325 and is almost unplayable because night lever is a pain in the ass because sunflower cost 100 and sunshromm cost 50 so you barely can save up anything before the zombie run you down (the 0 shroom ,i forgot his name ,got nerf to the ground ) , the mod is honestly amazing because you r force to use your sun effectively .

[@jdg6192]

Cough cough doom shroom in vs mode cough

[@hiromuatakawa680]

@@dangng7079 I did try expansion and I've gotten to world 6 with 1 loss, without ever using doom shroom. It is indeed very hard to use now cus it's so expensive

[@The-Scunge]

26:30 dude dropped the coldest, most raw review of power creep I’ve ever heard.

[@xrn769]

Funnily enough a lot of the early ancient egypt and pirate seas levels got way easier after leveling. I mean many objective levels are stupidly easy since they increased the amount of starting sun significantly.

[@normalchannel2185]

For the cherry bomb and winter point, plant food also hugely buffs that combo/stratergy. Not only can you use it to boost your sun production, you can also use it to A: apply a global slow even in the early game when you only have one or 2 melons B: Instantly recharge cherry bomb, which turns 300 sun and a plant food into something that can CLEAR THE BOARD of anything shy a garg, and even with gargs it takes them down to after imp throw phase

[@snowpea9431]

putting that risk of rain 2 track while talking about leveling really sold your point. The track gives this feeling of dread, which helped so much about your point. Leveling really did ruin pvz2 I remember playing pvz2 when I was around 4-5 years old with the old maps, so the entire pvz franchise was really a big part of my childhood. I can’t recall exactly what age I was when leveling was added, but it made the game no longer fun for me, so I stopped playing it after so long. After watching this video, all I can say is, bravo!

[@IceFlower22]

I have to say, i've been really enjoying your more highly edited videos, no matter if they come out less often :)

[@ClonedGamer001]

Actually the new Bamboo Spartan seems like it might be able to compete with Pokra. It looses the stun on hit for instead also being a defensive plant that gains even more damage when it reached half health.

[@Ben-fp2yc]

bamboo spartan is still pretty mid compared to her

[@ClonedGamer001]

@@Ben-fp2yc I mean, I haven't used it too too much yet but it definitely isn't a complete write-off. Before it looses its shield it definitely is worse overall but the 3X damage when it does is kind of nuts. Plus it has a hidden thing where it does a shit ton of extra damage to certain targets, including some pretty major threats like Zcorpions.

[@RevenantNeverDies]

are you kidding? a plant that gets more powerful the more danger its in is such a great idea for the harder levels because you have a chance to keep your defense up if a few buckets get by@@Ben-fp2yc

[@ClonedGamer001]

@levichicwown9760 It gets its damage bonus against both of those enemies, too. The statue that Medusa pushes and the staff Healer drops both are grid items and thus also take extra damage from it. And the zombies themselves are weak enough HP-wise that it can take them both out relatively quickly. Really the only issue is if both a Healer and a Medusa appear at the same time in the same lane.

[@papascorch5215]

You made my day playing con lentitud poderosa in the background

[@simplyandy1557]

A little fun fact about Gold Bloom, it isn't a native Premium plant like Grapeshot, for example. It was available for free as an Epic Quest reward in earlier versions before it was made into a Premium along with Aloe and that red electric berry (idk the name)

[@DillyBirdBK]

16:18 I am not sure if anyone has said this before as I am really late to making a comment, but Escape Root is an insanely broken plant when it comes to the endangered plant levels. Sure, only conditional, but you can move your endangered plants to the back of the board, making those levels infinitely easier.

[@vinegar...]

rad video, also amazing music choice for the leveling section

[@personmanftw1600]

For anyone curious the song is con lentitud poderosa by chris christodoulou

[@TheGloriousLobsterEmperor]

I love watching video essays for games I've never played.

[@diegoizaguirre3452]

25:21 The Chinese version while it has many issues is a creative powerhouse and did the power creep and leveling system better, sure it’s buggy, broken, unfinished, and montization issues, but what It does with that is inspiring.

[@musicexams5258]

the Chinese version was actually designed around leveling and say what you want about it, but at least there are interesting ideas in the Chinese version

[@diegoizaguirre3452]

@@musicexams5258execution may vary.

[@DaltonIzHere]

A note about the Numbers 2 analogy is that you could easily fix it if you made it so you can only use one 5 card in each deck. However, this only works in the case of Numbers 2, not for PVZ2. If PVZ2 had Plant Power categories, and limited these OP plants to one per deck, that would help, but it would still exist.

[@kriby-od6fo]

now that i have leveled all my favourite plants to ten i cant really go back

[@KyleRandomnes]

I won't lie... I came into the game when Pokra came into the game, for some reason it made me kinda fall in love with it. I went REALLY hard into the unlock as a F2P player. It got me though every level that I could use it. I really really enjoy it. I know it's broken. But it's still my favourite plant

[@gameingtothemax6266]

honestly leveling isn't bad on every plant, it's just bad on most ones, like tile turnip, it's not bad on tile turnip, in fact it allows for more interesting strategy with it making you able to place more tiles (that is more tiles period, cause eventually the cost gets to the point where it's over the maximum sun amount you can have) and it doesn't make the plant less interesting. leveling with zoybean and some other plants is pretty much the only way they're viable(at least for strategies centered around them)

[@hyper1-k6f]

My man a pea shooter Goes form 20 dps for 100 sun To 440 dps for 100 (lv 1 20 dps 100 cost) (max 110 dps 25 cost)

[@gameingtothemax6266]

@@hyper1-k6f okay? did I *say* it was good on peashooter?

[@m4rcyonstation93]

It is Horrid on tileturnip wdym

[@commanderdemonno9819]

alright i just want to say the "stat block revelation"'s timing with the music is incredible also good vidoe

[@jamesarcher9916]

One way I feel like they could help levelling being super bad is maybe adding the ability to change the level and challenge of zombies on levels and endless modes for more rewards and higher challenge that would warrant stronger plants

[@ezzzzyyy]

Bro did NOT give us an intro and mad respect to him for that

[@alphax4785]

The worst part about the leveling system is you can't turn it off to play the base game as it was balanced. No you have to play with your plants at arena / 3 chili penny's pursuit level.

[@spy-the-cuddlefish6459]

the risk of rain music made the conclusion way too emotional and i love it.

[@ISuperYoloI]

thyme warp being available in every world now is a sign that popcap is listening to the community... and their lack of competence to balance stuff

[@runningoncylinders3829]

This hit clicker game states. The zombie workarounds needed to be built better. And then leave out leveling from your deck. I wasn’t even playing when Pokra was added. That was a shocker to see vs Gargantuars.

[@inkl3rvyla493]

It's kind of funny to think about, but I once read someone who said that the leveling system was a "necessary" change, that was a long time ago by the way

[@LordofdeLoquendo]

That guy must be from PopCap.

[@rixrobin]

I absolutely love PvZ2 and have gotten back into it after completing it a few years ago, but i never looked up the meta because I wanted to figure out solutions on my own. This vid came in my recommended and I am super glad that I watched it. I’ve always been free to play (so no premiums or postgame plants or levels), and its interesting to see that I came to the same conclusion of cherry bombs and primal mines being extremely overpower and nearly always worth bringing. Also found that winter Mellon and magnifying grass to be very good towers. I dont have much experience with stallia but i wouldn’t say that it makes iceberg useless as i find iceberg more versatile: it stops gargantuan mid slam (primal potato arm and explode) before they thaw, use to make timing to group zombies up for aoe explosives or Celery stalker, and a good plant power ability freezing the screen (same for corn). Also in my experience celery stalker gives insane value for its price early game while still being good late game (iceberg also allows it to take out high hp zombies) Granted some premium or post game plants could blow these out of the water. My jaw actually dropped after seeing how those 2 pokra could solo anything. I decided to try online modes after coming back to the game after a few years, but the I couldn’t tell what the new plants or zombies did so I went back to doing the daily challenges, events, and various endless modes.

[@Just-H.]

Love the videos and can't wait for the next Stream Never stop being amazing✌️

[@NAFProjects]

Love the title card for "Infodump time!" It's literally me

[@UnstoppableChiller]

I feel like popcap should start watching these videos so they get a better understanding of what they are really doing

[@hanchen267]

"Winter Melon is the most expensive plant in PVZ2." Tile Turnip: "Am I a joke to you?!"

[@JoseViktor4099]

Btw, you just explained how did I broke my PvZ2. I saw a method of how to multiply currencies on the game. I though "what could be wrong? Seems fun" So, I had hundreds of millions of coins and gems. Using that, I could level any plant I would want, opening piñatas. And so I did , opening for a couple of minutes. Once with that, I could easily beat adventure mode. You must imagine how was the situation 1. Plant peashoters 2. Win I didn't realized yet that I was making my game unfun. When I beat adventure mode, I went through arena, and saw the arena plants. And I wanted them. All. So I spend my millions of coins on Piñatas. I spend to many hours that at that point, I chose to use an autoclicker instead. PvZ2 was going on that open, in only opening Piñatas. Btw, by doing this hack, you become basically unable to use Pennys Pirstuit because a bug of having infinite time left. PvZ2 was unfun to me. So I dont play PvZ2 anymore. I (even when I know it was part my fault) seen the worst of PvZ2 vanilla.

[@jdg6192]

You should play reflourished mod its basically fixes vanilla's problems

[@JoseViktor4099]

@@jdg6192 Of course, I was refering to Vanilla. Thanks for the answer, as this was the solution I recomend. Mods like Altverz, Reflourished, and even the infamous Eclise are the main reason of why I still like keeping an eye of PvZ2 content. Vanilla is basically dead for me, yet the videos talking about it are very interesting.

[@Simbala-bq5vy]

​@@jdg6192Idk reflourished looks so idk when I looked at the costume they looked all weird

[@ej2u545]

6:22 bro I think I just s*** myself when I saw those imps flight awards to the snapdragons

[@blacklight683]

This is why i literally went stright to later worlds got a the good plants then went back💀yes i beaten the later worlds(first levels) with cabbage sunflower and wallnut good the good plants then went back to beat the game in order

[@eyadikramy7674]

Amazing video bro the quality makes me happy this video was so long ❤

[@therealno_one]

Wow I can’t believe creeps is in the game now

[@PopeyeThe824th]

The risk of rain music while talking about the leveling was amazing

[@alfacinha9609]

0:39 I love her so much

[@fatricecat]

Power Creep would honestly be a good name for a plant. Creeper Vines are already an actual type of real-life plant. Just put it in.

[@roosethemoose6647]

Another example of the insanity of levelling is puff shroom. At level 20, it's a 0 cost straight shooter with a 2.5 second cd that can 2 shot basics and gets a lifespan increase to around 2 minutes. 2 or 3 puffs start soloing bucketheads. Even at lower levels, puff's nerfs from pvz1 to pvz2 (the reduced range, dmg, and adding a lifespan) become basically irrelevant, since by like level 6 it already has 20% faster recharge, 2.66x hp, 2.25x damage, and a 25% longer lifespan. And level 6 is cheap. REALLY cheap. Only a total of 163 packets to never need another early game plant for any other world, since even then 3 can take a conehead. 163 packets won't take that long bc by grinding ads like a degenerate for coins i was able to buy enough packets to get lvl 17 puff before i quit. Tl;dr levelling destroys everything

[@blurstreams]

I appreciate you and the fact that you're making these in-depth PvZ videos, but the fact that you spent the whole thing pronouncing Pokra like "pock-ra" instead of "poke-ra" is driving me insane. Love these, keep it up!

[@ashtmslf2315]

I'm like 90% sure Pokra is pronounced "Poke-Ra", Given how she's an Okra plant that Pokes zombies

[@princequincy5421]

the music right before the end hits so GOOD

[@auraliant_t9884]

9:10 BRO MISSED THE OCTO ZOMBIE 💀💀💀💀💀

[@lilharm]

when levels are built in a power-crept game, there’s two options - build it around the baseline, which makes the level too easy and unfun for anyone with a powercrept option - build it around the powercreep, which makes the level impossible without that powercreep (essentially requiring players to buy those powercreep options/waste time grinding it) - secret third option: give all units a value based on it’s strength, then the higher strength you have, the harder/more enemies you have to face

[@musicexams5258]

the third option sounds like what Pavonis Interactive did with Long War 2, a mod for XCOM 2 Where the bigger and stronger squad you bring, the longer it takes to infiltrate a mission, and the less infiltrated a mission is, the more enemies you must face

[@DJ_Wolfy5]

Actually Imp pear is the best plant in the game. It is often the best arena strategy, beats every level in PP (besides zomboss).

[@Ben-fp2yc]

How

[@Peashooterrealtrust]

​@Ben-fp2yc it's not, it can only transforms zombies into imps if the zombie eats plants and the most dangerous zombies don't eat your plants.

[@Ben-fp2yc]

i know, 2 columns of pokra can almost solo a garg at level 1, imp pear might be a 0 cost, but 5 secs of recharge isnt good enough there arent enough imps to make the stall viable, if you are going to grind your sanity for a seedium, you can just buy shrinking violet that not only erases all imps in a 3by 3 every 15 seconds, it shrink zombies to which is much better than impifying them as they arent faster or hungrier, plant food just works on whole board instead of just 5@@Peashooterrealtrust

[@togarashi6437]

Mostly in Arena. Imp Pear defines Boosterama.

[@DJ_Wolfy5]

Plant food, use it's plant food.

[@ludacus1]

God, the fucking Risk of Rain 2 music fucking hit hard behind the leveling speech. Props to you for that decision.