Crimea: Talking about Russian greatcoats

[@thekrausecollection15mmmin53]

I think as far as my army that I built is concerned I use the figures that I had. They were in greatcoats. I painted them having red colors because most of the images I saw had them that way. The first regiment in the brigade had red epaulettes and the second one white. the Yeager battalions I had with different colors. I did my best, but I think that in all it was a good representation thank you for your research. Always very nice to see.

[@ZenMiniPainting]

Honestly, I think I am overthinking things here. Certainly at smaller scales it matters less since detail is lost at distance. But these 28mm figures are making me do this!!! I must ask though. What colour did you paint the cross belts on your Jägers?

[@RalphAstley]

Whatever I am painting I always get bogged down with these kinds of doubts to the point where I feel paralysed and unable to put brush to figure. One thing I would be fairly confident of is that the collars on the greatcoats are standing upwards in most of the illustrations you show and are folded down on others and there is no absence of a collar with the tunic collar showing through. I'm also confident that collars are always red and fairly happy that shoulder straps are red in the first regiment in the division and white in the second. From there on I descend into uncertainty, recognising that this was a period of transition in uniform regulation in the Russian Army and that different units would be equipped in different fashion so for instance the six infantry corps of the Regular Army might have a different appearance to the army of the Caucasus. Also the exigencies of service in the field will rapidly encroach on conformity with regulation. Careless use of terminology (such as the blurring of terms such as shoulder straps, shoulder patches and shoulder boards which were all separate entities) by certain authors then adds to the confusion, leaving the wargamer with little option but to decide on a system and then stick to it, comforting themselves that no-one other than the most extreme rivet counter will notice small discrepancies on the tabletop. My own feeling is that the shoulder patches (that I have never had to consider for my 18mm figures) were on the upper side of the greatcoat collars and therefore not in view when the collar was turned up, likewise the red colour on the collar of the greatcoats was on the underside and therefore only apparent when the collar was turned up. Then you have the issue of which regiments had black leather items and which white, this in turn determining the style of drum hoops (see plate F in the 1991 Osprey). I believed this to be a question of place in the line but now am not so sure. I agree that the regiments only carried one flag. Figure manufacturers that supply two standard bearers are probably following their practice from their Napoleonic ranges. But then again I have never been able to discover why certain regiments had distinctive flags and others the generic green and white one. Perhaps the former carried two flags? It all goes to show there is no greater certainty than doubt.

[@ZenMiniPainting]

Hi Ralph, Thank you for your thoughtful comments, always a delight to receive them. 1. Uniforms in the field don't last long: Totally agree that this whole "dilemma" is entirely in my head. I think I am set on doing parade ground uniforms, since it has a sort of picture book quality. There is also a degree of abstraction that takes place, in that, from battle to battle uniforms could vary dramatically, I think @WarwickGeorge points out that the Russians didn't wear their greatcoats at Balaclava because it was too hot. I suppose if we were ultra strict with ourselves we would need every battalion in every order of dress, and I don't see myself doing that! 2. Collars: I think it appears that we have consensus on the collar reverses on the greatcoats having a coloured piece of cloth sewn to it, this would tie in to the red colours we see on regular line regiments. So the collar patch colours become a moot point. Now, it appears that, from thew Osprey plates, and their descriptions, that the Jaegers had dark green collar linings. Re the Bytrusk/Moscow Regiments and their Caucasian issued uniforms, I think that will be a separate discussion, but one that will be had when we get to tackling those regiments. Might make for a nice break in painting monotony, though Foundry haven't a command pack for those troops. In summary for collards we would say, Line = Red; Jaeger = Dark Green. 3. White and Black Leather: The only factor appears to be Line vs Jaeger status. Line = white; Jaeger = Black. This is supported by the newer Ospreys and "other" reading, but the older sources appear to have this rather bizarre 4th Regiment in the Division rule. So I am not quite sure how that emerged. Suffice to say, Black leather for Jaegers appears logical and aligns with the tastes of the time. 4. Flags: Based on the number of Ensigns per Battalion, 1 seems to be confirmed. I think you have it right, the command pack rule seems to be from habit than need. In terms of battalion colours/flags, I can't really find much on this. I see that Great War have several difference Russian flavours, but they all appear to be Green, with minor variations. I suppose we shall need to circle back around to this topic again at a later point!

[@RalphAstley]

@@ZenMiniPainting On the subject of flags I obtain mine from Maverick Models and looking at their site now I realise that apart from a single standard infantry flag all the other variants they retail (and there are many) are for different troop types (carabiniers, jaegars and each guard regiment had a specific flag so maybe the latter require two bearers)

[@ZenMiniPainting]

It appears that Great War (North Star) provide much the same. Although, I am intrigued by Maverick models, they have Sardinian, French, and Ottoman standards, so I might give them a whirl. I might put in a small order with them to see how I like them.

[@ZenMiniPainting]

I dipped into George McClellan's " The Armies of Europe, Comprising Descriptions in Detail of the Military Systems of England, France, Russia, Prussia, Austria, and Sardinia" which I managed to get my paws on. This is what he has to say on the greatcoats: "The same overcoat is worn by all arms of service; ft is of a brownish-gray color; very long, reaching to within three or four inches of the bottom of the pants; double-breasted, standing collar, without cape; it is made very loose by means of large plaits in the back, which can be gathered up by a strap and button; the buttons, shoulder-straps, cuff and collar facings, are the same as those of the uniform coat."

[@JackOpulski]

It's weird that some of the best references are paintings. The colors there are considerably altered by the lighting and mood chosen by the artists.

[@ZenMiniPainting]

Totally agree. I also found that even eye witness sketches are unreliable. There is a sketch done right after the Alma that exaggerates the elevations on the British flank. Artistic flair most likely to make the assault seem more valiant.