Crossrail is Not a Tube Line

[@stephenholt4670]

The "orange lines" need to be given better identifiers though. The Overground network has become far too large and unwieldy to be considered as one.

[@PinkThorn242]

So bring back the North London Line name and so on?

[@TheAnimystro]

Yes, they all need names and possibly different colours. The tube line colours can be reused on the maps for them, as they will have the striped line instead of the solid line, as Geoff mentions

[@therealGLAD]

Give them numbers

[@MerleTrains]

or *genius idea* make a own overground map, where every overground line has different solid colours, while the tube appears in a striped red line. why red? because red is the colour of the underground mode.

[@stephenholt4670]

In my opinion, it's time to ditch the traditional "tube map" altogether and move over to a streamlined version of the rail and tube map including all Oyster-eligible services across the network. The current tube map shows Blackfriars and St Pancras, for example, but not the Thameslink line running between them. And it shows London Bridge and Peckham Rye, but no indication that a Southern train links the two directly. With cunning use of dashed lines, hollow lines and so on, to differentiate modes, this map could be the catch-all we want.

[@audigex]

Just taking a minute to appreciate the fact that the 105 80 161 background is the Crossrail purple... and it's RGB code

[@andrewatherton316]

I knew I'd find the answer somewhere here!

[@sabersz]

Cheers for this, I'm absolutely going to find something, anything to use this colour in lol

[@lucas1984]

You can make all the logical and technical arguments that you want, but I do think that in the end it's about how it feels to the average user and how the public are going to end up using it. TfL are blurring these lines on purpose. They want the DLR, the Overground, and now the Elizabeth Line to feel like they're part of the the Underground/tube network because it will mostly be used in similar ways (shortish journeys into and inside central London, seamlessly integrated with the rest of the network) and because it's the most successful brand here. When people think of the tube versus the rest of the railway network they see the latter as much less efficient, less frequent, less staffed, less user friendly etc.

[@RichardGadsden]

I wish all trains with door-opening buttons worked like the trams in Manchester, where you can push the button before the door is released, and then the door automatically opens when the driver releases the doors. That way, I can put my bags down, push the button, pick them back up again and be ready to step off the instant the doors open. On most NR trains, I have to push the button and grab my bags as quickly as possible before stepping off the train.

[@garethaethwy]

Trains in Hamburg and Vienna do that already I'm pretty sure. I think it's a BRILLIANT idea...

[@OntarioTrafficMan]

The Bombardier trams here in Toronto do that as well. It would be ridiculous to not have that feature, as there would be an unnecessary delay between when the conductor releases the doors and when the doors actually open.

[@nllewellin]

God, try using the Overground, door open buttons take an age to light up adding to the already horrendous dwell times at stations because someone specified only two sets of doors per carriage.

[@Albatross-365]

I've never understood why some tube trains have door buttons which are redundant.

[@RichardGadsden]

Because the buttons weren't redundant when the train was built.

[@Tobberz]

Hey, anyone else think that the Overground should be divided up into different lines on maps? Like line A, B, C or something. Maybe in slightly different shades of orange.

[@mudchute4dlr]

No

[@TransportForLuka]

More like on the in carriage maps

[@danielspencer6174]

You are right elizabeth line is not tube underground. Most of it is overground east and west it only few stations in underground in Central London. It run overhead power line not 4 rail deep underground small tube tunnel subservce as most stations are underground.

[@mudchute4dlr]

@@danielspencer6174 no, 8/10 central core is underground

[@neilcrawford8303]

Geoff. In addition to the points raised. TfL Rail and London Overground are part of the national rail network, and therefore it is valid to travel on them with an All Lines Rover ticket. As should be the case with Crossrail, when it opens. The All Line Rover isn't valid on the tube.

[@LongStripeyScarf]

I want to agree with you. However, I was one of the 66 drivers in the tunnel during construction over the last 2 years and they barely fit! Now that the overhead wires are in, we’re nearly scraping the roof!Additionally, they wanted to run freight at night and they’ve discovered they can’t because even a Class 90 won’t fit and 9ft 6” boxes certainly don’t fit. So now it’s passenger only. Agreed, that doesn’t mean that it’s not a proper railway, but it’s not serving a full railway function. As a driver, I find it hard to see it as anything other than an underground line after spending 2 years down there!

[@patl709]

Locomotionlotion the fact that they can’t run the freight trains that they planned to run doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in the project. That’s ignoring the major cost overruns and completion time delays.

[@Moleman978]

"Underground trains do not have TOPS numbers" - this is not strictly true, any Underground rolling stock that operates partly on the National Rail network is classified under TOPS as the Class 499 (for example, Met S Stock shares track with Chiltern). This doesn't go for or against the argument really, just a fun fact!

[@boxcasa8975]

Yay a youtuber

[@tomo8910vids]

I think you have to define 'tube' before anything else. TfL might define it as a subset of underground railways in London, but many Londoners might just use it as slang for underground railway. I think it's pedantic to expect everyone to call the Elizabeth line not a tube because it's a metro and it's in London, London's metro is called the tube. It's just one of those small, inconsequential misnomers like people using WiFi and internet interchangeably.

[@SDCentralTSV]

But the Elizabeth Line is not a metro. No one ever called it one.

What is the legal situation in the UK? Here in Germany, there is a clear distinction between railroads and trams (which includes underground systems) with different laws applying to each. In some cases these laws are even contradictory. Basically "trams" are lighter and are required to have stronger brakes, but signals are optional, unless you're in a tunnel or want to go faster than 70 km/h, while for "real rail" signals are always required and the trains a typically heavier, longer and faster. So, for Germans, Crossrail would definitely be Rail and probable marketed a "S-Bahn", while the Underground would legally be a high-end tram.

[@tonhueb429]

Except for Hamburg and Berlin where S-Bahn and U-Bahn are pretty much the same thing (excuse me if i dont know the legal difference). Similar types of trains and independent from the national rail network, except the S-Bahn reaches a bit farther out into the suburbs. Somehow i think of the London Underground as a mixture of both, perhaps a bit more S-Bahn-like, whereas Crossrail seems very Regionalexpress to me.

[@T4D1004]

As Valentin already explained all Underground systems ("U-Bahn") in Germany are operated as trams or light rail, whereas the suburban services (S-Bahn) are all operated as railway oder "heavy rail". Crossrail in german terms would be a hybrid between S-Bahn (stopping at local stops) an regional services (RB/RE) when stretching further away from London. But from my point of view S-Bahn fits better as the trains mainly do local stops.

[@dda40x]

Hamburg and Berlin's S-Bahn networks are legally speaking mainline trains as well (they are governed by the EBO as opposed to the BOStrab), they just use technology closer to subways because that was available and cheaper when they were built. There are a few cases where "real" trains and S-Bahn trains share tracks in Berlin (e.g. Birkenwerder), and in Hamburg, S-Bahn trains continue as normal trains to Stade. Applying german terminology to London will only lead to headaches. :D It seems easy in abstract, but then it falls apart when you look at the details. E.g. Overground, Thameslink and Crossrail are like the circle line, north-south-tunnel and Stadtbahn (east-west-line) that form the core of the S-Bahn in Berlin, if you don't look closely. If you do look closely you'll see that they all reach out far wider than most S-Bahn lines and do fulfil regional train duties as well. Underground equals U-Bahn sounds right, but really at least the Metropolitan line is more like an S-Bahn, connecting the outer suburbs to the main stations in the city. It's fun but confusing. In my opinion the authorities are doing the right thing by showing all these systems equally on their maps, because the differences don't really matter to the average rider.

[@gsnedders_legacy]

There is such a thing as a "light railway", which is defined in the Light Railways Act 1896, but these are few and far between. (The Act deliberately gives only a very vague definition, to allow ministers the flexibility to decide if it is reasonable.) The only notable examples are the Heart of Wales line and the Docklands Light Railway. There's also the Tramways Act 1870 which covers trams exclusively. Basically, almost everything runs under the normal Acts covering railways, unless the Act authorising that specific railway grants them an exception.

[@IndigoJo]

Geoffrey Sneddon How is the Heart of Wales line a light railway? It's a National Rail line which takes normal trains (mostly DMUs).

[@erik_griswold]

One can use a Britrail Pass on London Overground and on TfL Rail, and it will also be valid on Elizabeth Line. Not valid on the Tube or Sub-surface lines.

[@nihalrg]

TfL Rail is the Elizabeth line though...

[@jamesdavison1786]

Chaz Baz it’s only for foreigners

[@lesliewaring5568]

@@jamesdavison1786 , Not quite true that Britrail Pass is for 'foreigners'. It has to be bought outside UK and you have to be non-Resident in UK. Otherwise anyone can get one, I verify it with my British passport and enjoy travelling on most UK trains

[@jamesdavison1786]

Leslie Waring oh right thanks for clearing that up

[@lesliewaring5568]

Thanks for clarifying that. I spend most of my travel time in London on TFL and Overground, and will probably use my Britrail Pass on that, instead of Oyster Card as at present. My usual local station is Kew Gardens, which has Overground and District Line services, will I be able to use my Britrail Pass there when using Overground services to e.g. Euston vía Willesden Junction? Also, when I arrive at LHR, my first instinct is to avoid London by taking the ex-Heathrow Connect connection to the vile Hayes and Harlington and thence to Reading and Cross Country for the North. It Will be great if I can use my Britrail Pass for the whole trip.

[@AshHill07]

I love how much those Thameslink Class 700 doors confuse people coming out of london. The amount of times I've had to push past people to press the door open button once outside of London, because everyone else is just staring at the doors wondering why they won't open ...

[@uwlodar]

I think the distinction between the tube and crossrail (and seeing crossrail as a mode) will be way more apparent if crossrail 2 ever happens. Right now theres only 1 line, so people don’t see it as a distinct ‘network’

[@kaseryn]

It's so obviously the way forward to catch the system up on the overcrowding. Prob end up with a bunch of deeper, faster lines with lots of capacity hitting major stations and hubs that can take the lions share of voume then the rest of the network is more available for end connections. Don't see many other options in a modern city. The double decker trains used in Sydney would be awesome but i don't spose they want to rebore the central line.

[@LisaSimpsonRules]

Let's wait before the Elizabeth Line is finally finished and running. Don't ask too soon for the second part when you haven't got the first one delivered.

[@LondonRider12]

Surely Thameslink would also be considered part of the "Crossrail" network. 🤔

[@neilio84uk]

Also, Network Rail will be in the infrastructure maintainer, even in the central tunnel section.

[@muhammadafzal3371]

You've forgotten that every London Underground train has Underground written on the train but Crossrail (Elizabeth Line) Has Elizabeth line on the trains

[@lcmortensen]

For the sake of sanity, tube trains are considered Class 499 when they are running on NR lines - e.g. Bakerloo Line trains on the Watford DC line and District Line trains on the branch to Richmond.

[@ronylouis0]

example: Crossrail is like French RER. Or S-Bahn.

[@wierdalien1]

ronylouis good comparison

[@jordidebont9547]

Does not make the argument clearer for some, as Paris métro has also doors you have to open yourself on some lines and automatic doors on ther lines. But yeah the comparison is very good in principle, because the RER is a train service, and therefore runs on the left track like in the UK, but the Métro runs on the right track, as it at least used to be a tramway.

[@norbitonflyer5625]

The metro was never a tramway, but was deliberately built to be different from the main lines so that it couldn't be requisitioned from the municipality by the government for main line use.

[@jordidebont9547]

Oh that's new to me, where I'm from (the Netherlands) Metro systems used to follow regulations for trams in order to save overhead costs. Sometimes the difference between metro is very vague like line 51 in Amsterdam.

[@sihollett]

ronylouis: true, but so is a lot of the Underground. London doesn't have a sharp distinction between Metro/RER or U-/S-Bahn.

[@EdMcF1]

Just wondering if it'll be called the George Line after the chap who'll be King when it's finished.

[@GNTel313]

I'm with you on this one Geoff. Crossrail is NOT a tube line. It's a National Rail line. Great explanation of the reasons why it's not a tube line.... and while I'm here, I think I'm amongst the majority of people who believe it should be known as Crossrail and not the Elizabeth line. It don't sound right ..... and anyways, her maj has already got the Victoria and Jubilee lines to her name 😉

[@rosiefay7283]

Yes, Crossrail's part of National Rail. But it isn't a line. It has the Elizabeth Line but that doesn't make it a line. When Crossrail's north/south line opens, Crossrail will have two lines...

[@GNTel313]

@@B9TL205 Crossrail is a mash up of ex national rail lines and new build lines. Its NOT a tube line and so it should remain named as "Crossrail".

[@grzegorzbrzeczyszczykiewic7482]

The Metropolitan line is a special case: Between Harrow-on-the-Hill and Amersham, Chiltern trains run on LU track, following LU rules and signalling, and they are listed in the LUL Working Timetable. This line is *not* included in NR's Sectional Appendix. On all other sections of the network where LU and NR trains share tracks (such as Richmond - Gunnersbury, Queen's Park - Harrow & Wealdstone), it is LU trains running on Network Rail, following NR rules and signalling, and the LU trains are listed in the NR WTT. These lines are included in NR's Sectional Appendix.

[@folksinger2100]

Agree with Geoff, many European cities and capitals have underground stations served by big outdoor mainline loading gauge train units

[@carlatkins2228]

Just so that you are aware TOPS doesn't just give information about the number of a piece of rolling stock, but it will also tell you where it was last reported to the system, it's brake type (not so important now), it's maximum permissible speed, the last dates of the mechanical exams (Graded A-G), and any other details such as multiple working capability.And regarding Custom House and (North) Woolwich, they used to be part of the North London (Heavy) Rail line.

[@gareth-stuartogg7887]

Majority of scotrail locomotives also open automatically during rush hours at larger stations, only the older stock the dmu etc, don't. The hst125's aren't in the same catagory because they still have the fun open on the outside doors 😀

[@burnsyrail7616]

Another reason that Crossrail isnt an Underground line is the fact that the Class 345s are designated as National Rail trains they are part of the Aventra family like the 710s on the Overground, the 720s on Greater Anglia and soon to be operating for C2C, the 701s due to enter service on South Western Railway and the 730s due to enter service on West Midlands Railway. Its a similar case with the Class 378s on the Overground they are part of the Electrostar family of units so they are designated as National Rail trains. Tube trains are not designated as National Rail trains they have totally different specifications.

[@cidersocialism6714]

According to Wikipedia, 'Class 499' is a TOPS classification given to all London Underground trains running on the national rail network, regardless of LU stock

[@thomassmith67]

Don’t know how but everyone of your videos I watch I find interesting and I love it

[@Wuz314159]

Are you laughing with Geoff or laughing at Geoff on the majority of the videos?

[@BenTheMiner]

Same here, I'm a New Yorker! Funny, right?

[@BenTheMiner]

Uh, yeah, Brooklyn. As an NYC MTA enthusiast, I think Manhattan is the best.

[@BenTheMiner]

Yeah, the B and Q are my favorite lines (probably bc I live along it, lol)

[@EVILBUNNY28]

Thomas Gaming same! And I don’t even live in London!

[@j616s]

Why can't people just accept that forms of rail travel exist on a spectrum? ;)

[@adriansheffield5046]

Lol. Because the people who can't accept this are on a spectrum all of their own.

[@moritzl7065]

Touché

[@ConstantinSPurcea]

The numbers on the monitor are individual Red Green & Blue values to create the colour of Elizabeth Line. For those who are wondering.

[@footynutguy]

Damn, here I was all set to have an argument and, unfortunately, I agree with everything you said. Ah well, better luck next time. The only thing I could say that some people, Americans, think that everything you can use an Oyster card on is part of the tube network.

[@jackdougill5647]

We need you to do secrets of crossrail (Elizabeth Line) on Londonist now

[@nihalrg]

There's something weird though. On the map showing National Rail lines, London Overground, Tramlink and Crossrail (currently branded TfL Rail) are shown as tube lines.

[@outwood1]

Interestingly there are actually 26 stations (at this moment) in the Office of Road and Rail statistics listed where the station facility owner is London Underground

[@charliesands776]

Who cares? London has new trains that cut my journey in half so I'm happy

[@charliesands776]

The best part is I won't have to go between Liverpool Street and Ealing Broadway on the central line anymore.

[@wierdalien1]

Charlie Sands yeah but most people will do the same as you relieving pressure on the central line

[@galactic_nerd-sk4747]

@@charliesands776 Can you not go on the H&C or Circle instead from Paddington?

[@MervynPartin]

2 years later than your comment, it is rather ironic that the trains are still not carrying any passengers through the tunnel, thanks to appalling project management. Further irony in that with the current Covid 19 problems, you would be advised not to travel anyway. Hopefully, this has not jeopardised your employment in these troubled times

[@Topboy53]

@@charliesands776 *Stratford

[@tonyb83]

Thanks for the explanation. It's a pity the operators have not made it clear because it adds to the confusion.

[@jamesloader2326]

This really matters to him!

[@MattGreenland1]

I think of crossrail like thames link. It's a tune when it's on the tube bit of the network and a train outside it. Yes, it magically transforms.

[@kingcharles8031]

Crossrail connecting to the two main parts of National Rail its an railway cross London go out to towns outside of London Great Western main line - Elizabeth line - Great Eastern main line

[@suburbia2050]

It does but it was also needed to relieve the Central Line and the core section has tube-like frequencies for turn up and go usage. I think most people will think of it as the tube.

[@JBDTV]

For the 95% of people who just want to get from a to b, they couldn't give a t*ss whether it's a tube line, tram line or ski route.

[@mimori8]

no fun in that

[@snubbedpeer]

Is it a middle ground line then? In Norway I am glad that no doors in trains, underground or buses open automatically, you have to press a button. Just think if they did open automatically, in winter the whole carriage would be freezing cold in a very short time!

[@suburbia2050]

The central core section was built to relieve the Central Line, high frequency (every 2.5 minutes at peak) while the line extends into regions outside of London (Reading) so yes its a hybrid.

[@gsnedders_legacy]

When it comes to automatic opening doors: there's also the Class 314s in Strathclyde/Inverclyde. They must be some of the few trains on the UK network with no door open/close buttons accessible by passengers.

[@SkateGeneva]

Thanks for the RGB of the line !

[@david_rocky_road]

“When its put on the tube map in December 2018”… less than a week to go now!!!

[@MarcDuffyTV]

Revisiting your videos Geoff as I’m unfortunately laid up, but I’ve two questions from this vid… If the Elizabeth Line stations are to be classified National Rail stations by the ORR, with TfL merely a TOC for instance, then are National Rail tickets to be valid on this mode? That to say, I could purchase an orange paper ticket from my local station to ride Crossrail? And two, the Elizabeth Line has a roundel though should it also have a National Rail double arrow too outside its stations? Maybe another video could explain these? Cheers 🙂

[@SDCentralTSV]

Hi, I’m not Geoff Marshall but 1. Yes, National Rail tickets will be valid on this mode. 2. No, these stations won’t have National Rail roundels outside their stations For all intents and purposes, Crossrail / the Elizabeth Line will be treated and classified exactly how the London Overground is - a “National Rail service” that is owned by TfL.

[@jamaln9056]

I currently catch the TfL Rail from Acton to Paddington and it's by far my favourite way to get into the city. Can't wait for the stops further in the city to open up.

[@thatguyshawzy]

No toilets? *i think it’s a tube line*

[@passeficknayshenallflaiugh9411]

The Overground has no toilets

[@thatguyshawzy]

I know, it’s a joke?... Jeez.

[@ejyxx5534]

R/woooooooosh

[@therealvbw]

@@thatguyshawzy Just pointing it out?

[@therealvbw]

@@ejyxx5534 r/woooosh* and I think it's time to stop

[@Lynxfan2]

Another reason why Crossrail is not a Tube line is the fact that the interiors do feature high backed seats to the 2+2 layout. None of the lines operated by London Underground feature any trains with high backed seats. Regarding the passenger entry/exit doors opening automatically without pressing a button, yes that is correct that happens on Merseyrail Electrics services (operated by Classes 507 + 508) in and around Liverpool & Merseyside, however also the ScotRail Class 314 EMU trains (similar to Classes 507 + 508) operating services in and around Glasgow & Strathclyde do not have passenger door controls. As well as the Metropolitan line operating alongside Chiltern Railways between Harrow on The Hill and Amersham, the Bakerloo line (Ok fine, I accept that is a Tube line) also operates alongside London Overground between Queens Park and Harrow & Wealdstone. Kind regards, Peter Skuce

[@GeorgeMaier]

This is the most common critique I got on my Zone 9 video - but I’m staying out of the rail/tube line debate!

[@jameslynch2611]

One other fairly obvious reason why it isn't a tube line, which Geoff does touch on in a few of his points, is the fact that the Crossrail trains have a completely different livery to the standard red white and blue livery of the London Underground. You would think that if TfL were classing this as a Tube line it would have the same livery as all the other lines, but it is completely different, with white doors, a predominantly purple base and black window shutters

[@yosmosonic]

It isn’t an Underground line if it isn’t timetabled at 55 Broadway! ;)

[@Garysip]

I would have argued that a big argument for it not being a tube line is down to the signalling and who owns the track, the met line is operated and signalled but the Underground, even parts of the Bakerloo north of queens park and the Richmond and Wimbledon branches are signalled by network rail but they are also network rail stations hence why they still have ticket offices (at least for now) my understanding is Crossraill will have no signalling done by or even near the Underground, coming from a signaller on the underground, wouldn't just stare and poke at it not knowing what to do

[@allthreeofus8913]

Close but no cigar. The signalling system is a Siemens CBTC signalling system that is installed in Metro operations all over the world. There isn't a mainline ECTS level three system available off the shelf that could be installed hence the 'underground' style signalling. Most modern LU signallers would pick this up in about 30 mins of observation. Most mainline signallers would take longer - not because it is more complicated than their computer based signalling but because of the frequency of service. It rather oddly has had marker boards installed on a moving block system as a sop for the mainline rulebook. It would make operating it a hell of a lot easier if it was treated as a tube line for rules and regs purposes since the national rule book is not fit for purpose on a metro operation, it is too cumbersome and process driven.

[@Angel33Demon666]

I don’t think the issue here is anyone calling it a ‘tube’ line. The issue is that both the Elizabeth line as well as the London Underground are urban rapid transit systems running on grade separated heavy rail. The purpose of this railway is extremely similar to that of the Underground, Overground, Thameslink, Merseyrail, as well as the Glasgow metro and Glasgow urban lines. I don’t think anyone reasonable is arguing that Elizabeth Line _is_ an Underground line, but merely that it serves a sufficiently similar purpose that puts it in the same category.

[@koverpy426]

Let me try: Limited-stopping suburban-regional heavy rail rapid transit with suburban-type vehicles vs Local-stopping suburban-urban heavy rail rapid transit with commuter-type vehicles. S-Bahn and U-Bahn, Metro and RER are different. True, mainline trains may run similar services or can even interconnect with metro lines, but that doesn't diminishes its distinctiveness. The purposes of Overground and Thameslink are not similar to the Tube. Metropolitan Line is an outlier, however the mere fact that it's not mainline means it's can be say a private suburban railway or metro, etc, which it has been made the latter. [edit] "Urban rapid transit" as in "Urban rail transit" simply means it provides services in urban areas. That includes light rail (LRT, trams, etc) as well. "Suburban rail" and "regional rail" refers to, for one thing, the destination and coverage of service.

[@Angel33Demon666]

Koverpy The overground isn’t limited stopping. You can’t really argue that Merseyrail is significantly distinct from a Metro service, which is exactly what the LU is. The Elizabeth line, while using mainline rolling stock is no doubt a Metro service. For further examples, look at various lines of the Tokyo metro, it provides through services onto commuter rail lines. The fact of the matter is that commuter lines are extremely similar in both purpose and infrastructure as Metro lines, especially in urban cores. The real difference here is intercity trains vs commuter trains.

[@jamied674]

Different people will call it what they want to and that is fine. It really doesn't matter in the great scheme of things. The world has bigger problems.

[@ianmurray250]

Like Thameslink then. What 'colour' & 'line' is that.

[@Angel33Demon666]

Ian Murray It doesn’t matter. Fundamentally, the Underground and Thameslink are extremely similar (at least in the central section), Thameslink travels further outward to Cambridge and Brighton, but regarding the central section, you can give Thameslink trains an Underground livery and they wouldn’t be too out of place.

[@thatchamtmd5033]

I can see an All The Stations video in my head...

[@lukpac]

Hi Geoff, we just visited from the US and spent a few days in London, and since then I've been studying up on the Underground and related services. I've got a question which is tangentially related to the Crossrail/Tube one: you've noted that over the years, some lines either became Underground lines, or moved from being Underground lines to other services, such as Overground. Other than a color on the map, what is the distinction? Rolling stock? Timetable (or lack thereof)? Some of the reasons in this video are somewhat arbitrary (i.e., Crossrail is not a Tube line because TfL says it is not a Tube line), so I'm curious where those distinctions lie. Also, as an aside, I'd be interested in seeing more videos on how the entire network fits together physically. I.e., Tube lines sharing tracks with other Tube lines, Tube lines sharing tracks with other rail services, etc.

[@jeremystanger1711]

The reasons seem arbitrary because the distinction is fairly arbitrary. But then the distinction between most things is pretty arbitrary. Why is a town not a city? The answer is because it's not a city.

[@Psevdonim123]

Are transport fans going to kill me if I say that crossrail is not a tube line but it acts like a tube line or they gonna spare me? AND yeah, late addition but still, S-Stock trains are actually using manual doors, they're opening automatically for a certain period of time and then they're closing, and you able to open them manually, and another thing, District and Bakerloo line trains have TOPS numbers (they're Class 499/2 for Bakerloo 1972 stock and Class 499/5 for District S7 stock)

[@SteveMorton]

And therefore Crossrail/E line will not be part of the tube challenge

[@RealCadde]

How can people argue that it would be a tube line? It clearly isn't just by looking at the bloody train itself.

[@AdamMcCarthy74]

Central section of Thameslink should be on the tube map if Crossrail is. Don't @ me!

[@highpath4776]

Central section of thameslink not on tube map supposedly to protect TfL revenue so nat rail does not abstract more travelcard percentage.

[@terminx7841]

Your in luck

[@QuarioQuario54321]

Fact: If the tube needs to use Mainlije Tracks, internally, it’s class 499. That’s also why some of those trams in Sheffield are 399 and T&W is 994. 9xx classes are mostly departmental trains.

[@fetchstixRHD]

I was thinking that, I was sure that Underground stock technically had TOPS numbers.

[@AutoGamerZ_]

105... 80... 161... What does that mean. It seems to be too obvious to be randomly there in the background for the entire video.

[@DavidShepheard]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/m5mUlYKEprdqisk

[@esd9782]

see at 3:36 you said underground trains don't have TOPS numbers but the Waterloo and city stock do because they used to be part of British rail.

[@wilsonator2008]

Hi Geoff, I've been an avid viewer of your videos for a few months now. I was wanting to ask your opinion on whether you'd agree with standing only carriages on trains, if certain discounts were available for these carriages? This will not only help train companies get more people on trains, save them money purchasing the train carriages themselves if they're not needing seats and tables installing and also save time on the cleaning of the trains if they only need to do a quick mop of that carriage and a degum if needed. Also, if people could get specific discounts in standing only carriages, I reckon it could also improve tourism on weekends to the seaside/city breaks as people will be more likely to want to go out to new places with friends and family. I'd be glad to hear back from you.

[@silewis4762]

There is an argument to call it New Thames Link or Thames link 2....it does follow (roughly) the path of the Thames....it has similar characteristics of Thames link in that it starts and ends well out of London but does go through it (underground) joining up with tube stations...

[@Reason077]

The door alarm sound on these trains is *extremely* loud! So loud it made my ears ring and I wasn't even sitting near the doors. So loud I'd be worried for children's hearing if they were standing near the doors. All the other alarms and announcements are at normal volume (including the "door closing" sound) - hopefully TfL Rail can tweak this down a bit.

[@dominicfindlay]

Reason077 same as the newer electrostars probs inherited or there's some regulations about it

[@Reason077]

Dominic Findlay - There were no problems with the alarm sounds on the GWR Class 387 Electrostars which these trains replaced on the Paddington-Hayes route. These ones are far, far louder than in any Electrostar I've been in!

[@dominicfindlay]

Reason077 the c2c ones are loud. The 387 ones. Fenchurch street gets annoying. Unless these are even louder.

[@Reason077]

It would be interesting to get a sound level meter and actually test this... Geoff?! There must be safe volume limits for these things where people will be sitting and standing in close proximity.

[@TheSniper9752]

Reason077, Word.

[@RedPanda83815]

At the pub i work at, one of our customers is a guy who is one of the operators of the TBM's digging the tunnels for crossrail, he explained to me that crossrail is the mode, and the elizebeth line is the specific line within that mode. This is because they are planning more lines that will come under crossrail, one being north to south london and i forget the geography of the other one. He said they will all be crossrail and that they will have specific names for each line.

[@richardavsmith]

For me, one of the basic reasons not to confuse it wth the tube is that the service pattern, frequency and train length is so different: lots of skip stops, longer journeys, 24tph in the core but branch/station frequencies as low as 2tph and even at major stations near the centre as low as 12tph. Plus much longer trains than any tube. The stop spacing in the core is also much larger than on a tube line. So all told, any attempt to suggest it's a tube line risks disappointing prospective passengers. Also I suspect you'll be able to buy tickets to any station on it from any other national rail station in the UK, which is not true for tube-only stations in most cases.

[@Rorschach.]

"...as low as 12tph." As Geoff himself attests in one of his talking head segments of the ATS doc, that is a very 'London' perspective. Which is fair enough.

[@richardavsmith]

Rorschach Relative to a tube section in the core, it is, although it's the same frequency as the West side of the circle and the Hammersmith branch so not unheard of.

[@QuarioQuario54321]

Richard A V Smith There are major caveats. For one thing, Chesham gets frequencies that low and nowhere on the tube are frequencies that high. Met has skip stops during rush hour. Tube trains are longer than most mainline sets. By international standards(not every country), almost any national rail train in the UK would be classified as a subway car. And the E-word shares properties that are not with the tube but with other metros around the world. Most of China has platform screen doors, the only barriers between the train and the platform on the tube effectively go all the way but actually don’t. This includes the doors installed after NTfL enters service. Individual coaches are 75 feet in length, a very common length in North America and Asia. Hong Kong uses overhead lines. Just wait a few years.

[@norbitonflyer5625]

"Tube trains are longer than most mainline sets." Not in London - no Underground train has more than eight cars, but anything less than eight on non-TfL train services in London is quite unusual now - the main exception being the Northern City Line which used to be a Tube anyway.

[@sihollett]

Train length doesn't really matter much as long as users can get on - and if it does, is the W&C not a tube due to having much shorter trains than elsewhere? I guess the trains being so long might be a source of disappointment as it means more walking. ;) The greater ticketing opportunities, however, definitely won't! The RER fanboys trying to force a functional distinction in spite of obvious places where LU has the same feature as the Liz often bill it as a 'super tube' - better than the tube. If anything, confusing it for a tube line will likely leave you pleasantly surprised rather than disappointed.

[@flavoursofsound]

1927: are Jaffa Cakes a biscuit? 1935: is the cat dead or alive? 1988: is Die Hard a Christmas movie? 2015: is the dress blue & black or white & gold? 2019: is the Elizabeth Line a tube line?

[@AutoUnder]

Merseyrail train doors do open automatically, most of them are part of the Liverpool Underground

[@raymondflanagan9355]

They don't open automatically. A guard opens the control box at the door he is standing at and opens and closes them from there.

[@AutoUnder]

@@raymondflanagan9355 ah okay but they aren’t passenger operated

[@raymondflanagan9355]

Nope agreed, but not automatic either. Manual as in guard man ha ha. Sorry to nitpick.

[@kristofferhauskovandersen866]

I think some might, though not deliberately, use "taking the tube" as a synonym for a journey made using the TfL tube and rail single fare system. As a visitor in London I have in the past (*) often found myself saying that "we should find the tube instead of taking the bus" when the journey could not be made as a single bus ride -- and in that context I guess I would not distinguish between tube and rail. So not just "because it is on the tube map", but with the same effect.

[@kristofferhauskovandersen866]

*: I am aware that today you can hop between busses in London on a single fare, but you still pay two distinct fares to combine bus and tube. Right? In Copenhagen we have a single fare system across bus, tube, and rail -- which is great! Would be great to have in London too!

[@Wasserfeld.]

Two other things - Crossrail is privatised, unlike the tube but like all other National Rail routes (for now) and National Railcards are and will be valid.

[@gwillaims]

Lee you kind of correct but not as franchise as other train operators its worked as a concession to TFL so fare revenue is collected and kept by TFL and they pay operator to provide service so they have more control than franchising

[@cjmillsnun]

Gary, that's the same model as Overground.

[@garethaethwy]

And Railcards are valid on Tube and Overground fares, if registered to an Oyster...

[@gwillaims]

correct just showing difference to east coast etc

[@Wasserfeld.]

Gareth Williams They don't take a discount off tube journies. Only reduce the travelcard cap as it's always done, presumably because travelcards was originally Network South East's idea

[@andymadden8183]

I noticed the description reads "The should be 'no', and here's why ...".

[@johnbouttell5827]

If Crossrail stops at underground stations, it will feel like part of the underground network.

[@maxwellday5096]

Rip Curl 69 No its the way they integrate. They will be used like Tibe Trains yet Nat Rail ones are used like nornal trains. Crossrail will be trated more like the tube.

[@DarthJedi2005remixes]

There are lots of stations where different modes intersect. Stratford is the big one that immediately springs to mind where you've got the Central line, Jubilee line, DLR, Overground, National Rail and TfL rail/Crossrail/Elizabeth line/whatever it's called when you read this all coming together under one roof. You certainly wouldn't call all of them tube lines, yet you can interchange between all of them just as easily as interchanging between tube lines at a "traditional" tube station like Oxford Circus.

[@reinerjung1613]

@John the key question "is it a tube line" can be interpreted in two ways (a) does the owner consider it to be a tube line and (b) does it run mainly underground. The latter implies that tube means underground and especially London underground. The first definition is easy to check and the owner of the line considers it not to be a tube line. This is like, one ones a restaurant which serves Chinese noodles and it therefore considered by the owner to be a Chinese restaurant. While you insist that it is Italian - you know - because of noodles. This should settle things, but maybe you are a more a tube == (mainly) underground train. Well Crossrail's net is 118 km, but only a few parts are underground. That from Paddington to Canary Wharf, around Woolwich, a short section after Custom House, and the Heathrow portion. So it is mostly overground. However, you may insist, but in the inner city it is below ground and therefore an underground. Well with this logic the Berlin U-Bahn is underground, but also S-Bahn (light rail) in Berlin and Munich. There are quite a few Stadtbahn (trams) in Germany all of them have underground portions. Some have even more parts underground than Crossrail. As you can see it is not an underground just because it goes underground. And if you dismiss all these examples, because they are from that evil continent where they drive on the wrong side, I want to reiterate the following. All tube lines (at least those I know of) user DC current from a current rail, while Crossrail uses and overhead wire with more or less typical (national rail) AC current just like half of France or large portions of Eastern Europe, Denmark etc.

[@SaturnCanuck]

So if a TfL Bus stops at a station does that make it a Tube as well

[@EliteXtasy]

John Bicycle It also stops at National Rail only stations.

[@tee.f.n]

It’s like when people call National rail “Overland” or “Overground”... really grinds my gears

[@hannah60000]

Yes! It’s not the overground, it’s national rail, network rail or the mainlines. I don’t think these distinctions are hard to understand. The overground is a TfL / London transportation concept.

[@stephenberesford1026]

So Geoff, I am assuming Crossrail won't be part of the tube challenge. But will you be able to use Crossrail to potentially break the record time?

[@norbitonflyer5625]

presumably yes, as other NR lines can be used (as can buses)

[@highpath4776]

I cannot see a significant gain in tube challenge routing by using the Elizabeth Line - the line is deeper and probably passenger connections tricky to undertake up and down escalators and tunnels

[@jonathancook4022]

Who could possibly argue against such wisdom? The question is, what is the Elizabeth line classed as - is it National Rail, a Metro or simply part of what will be a future network known as Crossrail or Crossrails?

[@cowscrazy]

I'm not from London and I'd totally think it was a Tube line . I'm pretty sure all tourists that don't watch your videos will think the same thing

[@EvanEscher]

Yeah I'm from the US and visited London last summer and thought the same, until I came back and started watching Geoff's videos.

[@ronylouis0]

except French. In paris we have RER.

[@norbitonflyer5625]

It's an S-bahn, where the Tube lines are U-bahnen.

[@sihollett]

cowscrazy - absolutely: almost none of this matters to people who aren't geeks. Norbiton Flyer - except the tube lines / parts of the tube that are S-bahn in nature: London has never had a distinction between the two functions.

[@moritzl7065]

I'm pretty sure the reason TfL called it a "line" is because to the regular public they don't care about the way it's electrified, TOPS, statistics and stuff. In the public eye, it's just another train that takes you through the city. London already has too many different modes of transport to confuse the poor tourist so I think TfL just wants to simplify it a bit. In the past I talked about how its service pattern, platform-edge doors and station architecture make it look like a tube line, but then again fundamentally it comes down to human's desperate need to categorise something that cannot simply be put into a box.

[@garylumley7610]

Should have called it "Wombling Free"...

[@MercenaryPen]

Surely they're saving "wombling free" for some hypothetical future in which overground trains are extended to Wimbledon?

[@norbitonflyer5625]

You are aware that Wimbledon has had overground (if not Overground) services for 180 years? (opened 21st May 1838)

[@MercenaryPen]

I forgot to capitalise- I meant Overground.

[@raakone]

Also, that branch of the District Line was technically "mainline" until 1994, even though in the last few decades, only Underground trains used it, the stations were identified as British Rail only and staffed by them!

[@emjayay]

Some subway lines in other places require passengers opening their door - a least Vienna U-Bahn for example. Earlier cars have a handle to move and newer ones have an electronic button.

[@peabody1976]

Does that mean DLR is National Rail, since you have to press the button to open the doors?

[@thefountainpendesk]

Corey Reid no It means it's not part of the underground

[@chiefpred9982]

Think of Crossrail like thameslink. It uses mainline-size trains, it runs on existing lines, but they just so happen to run underground

[@LaPingvino]

I think Crossrail is about as Tube as RER is Paris Metro: that is, it's a part of the network for the same prices with the same payment while inside the inner zones ;)

[@ModernHistory4U]

Surely if you can argue that the Met is similar to a national rail then you could argue the Eastern end on the District Line is also similar to a national rail section of track following the C2C route to Upminister?

[@alistairgilessmith9877]

What does the 105 80 161 on your computer screen mean ???

[@louis.davies]

Alistair Giles Smith RGB of the line colour.

[@mikecowen6507]

Alistair Giles Smith It's a question generator! Those following my recent comments will notice the continuing theme... Good one Geoff!

[@mikecowen6507]

Roblox Rail And the color on the screen...

[@damianknight8064]

convertingcolors.com/rgb-color-105_80_161.html

[@Reason077]

Is it, though? The TfL Colour standard (Issue 04) lists 147, 100, 204 as the RGB colour for the Elizabeth line.

[@nickyp28]

314s operating the Cathcart Circle in Glasgow have doors which open without having to press a button. These are being phased out soon though

[@LumoTransport]

When your watching this after Crossrail opened

[@Nick.Magnus]

The RER in Paris is not considered as part of the Metro, and The Liz Line/Crossrail can be seen as very much its equivalent. So indeed it shouldn't be considered as part of the tube.

[@Richard_is_cool]

So ur saying it's not the Elizabeth Line but the Purple Line gotit

[@HenrysAdventures]

Looking forward to my first trip on Crossrail!

[@lohphat]

Oh boy, here we go...

[@felisferia]

interestingly enough, because of the bakerloo and district lines sharing with the overground, any london underground rolling stock operating on national rail tracks have a TOPS code of 499.

[@lipkinasl]

You missed another reason: If it were an Underground line, then the London Underground timetables section would be writing the timetables for it. We aren't, so it isn't.

[@johnm2012]

The Elizabeth line is tube line for the same reason the Central line is a tube line and the District line isn't, namely because of the way the below ground section is constructed. It is not an Underground line, even though parts of it are underground, and because of that it is not a Tube line, despite being a tube line.

[@themustardclan]

Respect your points but I think you should view it as a colloquial thing. When most people say tube they aren't thinking of the technical definition, they're just referring to a London train that tfl runs. It's similar to people not thinking of tomato as a fruit - when most people imagine fruit they think of something sweet, not something with seeds; or that the Brazil nut isn't a nut---it's a seed

[@hannah60000]

That’s not true. Many Londoners tend to make the distinction. If you’ve grown up in London and witness the development the distinctions are clear, in my opinion. I’ve not heard anyone call the overground the tube - it’s like calling the DLR a underground line. It’s a no. Peace.

[@alexchung865]

The guy who was on the train at new cross probably still sees it as the east london line

[@hilaryc8648]

Aren't underground trains all red, white and blue.

[@maxwellday5096]

This isn't strictly the Underground. They will be purple permanently.

[@irenec4876]

Geoff Marshall, I agree with you about The Elizabeth line being a Crossrail line not an Underground Tube line! Love watching your videos, Thank You!

[@spinba11]

How will people press the door open buttons on the outside when the platforms have PED?

[@grahamcutress47]

spinba11 it's funny I thought the same thing, I guess where there aren't PRDs self opening will be the choice, but in the central areas they'll have to open

[@jur4x]

Maybe PRDs are linked with the train currently behind them? And have a button on them?

[@spinba11]

I’m guessing the doors will open automatically to keep things simple as I think most people will think it’s a tube line (I’m not one of them) and will expect them to open automatically in the underground sections

[@paulsengupta971]

I think for all modes, doors should open automatically when underground, on a button if overground and the cold air can get in. Of course you might want the cool air to come in when it's warm, but, well, y'know, air conditioning...

[@DS9TREK]

spinba11, I dunno, whenever I'm on the Tube I see at least one person bashing the button on a Tube train to get off quicker. I think some people really believe that works...

[@davidgandar7339]

Some people have no technical understanding, Simple way to understand the difference between tube and National Rail is that tube trains have four rails under them, and National Rail only two.

[@majorleaguetrainspotting6707]

Calling the Elizabeth Line a tube line is like calling a guided busway a railway line 😂

[@stephenholt4670]

Not really. A guided busway is not a railway because it has no rails. Whereas the Liz line has tracks like the tube, runs through tubes, and integrates fully with the tube network. It's not the tube, but it certainly quacks, walks and swims like it.

[@majorleaguetrainspotting6707]

Stephen Holt and it may so. But take away the rails of say the tub and cross rail and you have 2 very different machines

[@VisuaLpauL]

Parisians call their tyred lines Métro just like the ordinary railway lines. Not that different from guided busway

[@mosel2580]

Pavel Shevchuk a metro using tires needs a track while a bus using a busway can also use normal road

[@Alan-dd2bn]

You just called a tube line by calling it the 'Elizabeth Line'

[@adburltv]

on the rail version of the tube map (the one with the light blue heading rather than dark blue, and that includes Southern etc), the DLR and Overground are shown as solid colours, while "true" national rail lines are shown as "hollow" (two thin coloured lines with the white part in the middle). it will be interesting to see how Elizabeth Line is depicted on that map. I suspect it will also be solid on the rail version of the map.