Starcraft II: Raynor Backwater Marshall Revisited

Starcraft II Co-Op Mission: Part & Parcel
Raynor's Backwater Marshall doubles the health of all his bio units, at the cost of removing the MULE calldown from his Orbital Commands. To maximize this, I produced a bio army that stays mostly together to increase their chances of survival.
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[@GMunozS]

Kudos to your ally, who was building the ultimate overlord army and couldn't show it off because the cutscene popped too early

[@jj4008]

This format of revisited prestige is perfect - playing solo, so that we can see the true power of it.

[@MusicHavenSG]

Only started prestiging on Backwater Marshall today. Much more tanky marines and marauders and firebats, and I've been more than willing to take that for less income which I feel is not really that pronounced. By the time you maxed your pure infantry armies out which you can still do pretty quick, I find myself flooded with resources and enough for a 2nd big push if I happen to lose a big army.

[@Amoeby]

That's weird. How many rax do you have with P0? I have around 12-18 so I can replenish any loss instantly. Moreover, having less hp and dying is actually a good thing because new units arrive with 60% speed buff. So P0 is superior to P1. So as long as you have enough rax and keep muling you shouldn't have too much resources.

[@Tdvtdvtdv]

​@@Amoebyunits living is always better than units dying.

[@nelsonariza4075]

​@@TdvtdvtdvZagarra and stukov big disagree

[@Tdvtdvtdv]

@@nelsonariza4075 well suicide units deal damage when they die

[@christophec6201]

Raynor Backwater Marshall is great (with more medics). Only issues: 1) Disruptors and Reavers composition as enemy. 2) The void slivers on Scythe of Amon can destroy your army if you don't micro it.

[@Leonhart_93]

I have seen a discussion on the forums and a lot of people claimed that P1 Raynor is weaker than P0 because of the MULES. Lol, I know the minerals feel scarcer, but you are actually using the same income as with any other commander with P1. Those really beefy and rather cheap units can't be a disadvantage.

[@Max-sz9ez]

I honestly think they have a point. Yes once you have a maxed out army backwater is stronger no doubt about that, but mules just give you so much momentum and allow you to get rolling much more quickly. Which will in turn facilitate earlier pushes into the enemy and you can keep the momentum rolling by constantly reinforcing with your endless bank (that you have thanks to 3 or 4 orbital mules) and make it rain men upon the enemy. I just feel like that while the extra hp is nice it is often not really needed whereas mules just give you such an immense boost and synergise so extremely well with the instant reinforcements provided by droppods. That said maybe it is just a question of personal preference idk. Edit: What I mean is that he has like 100 supply and 1 /1 at the 10 minute mark whereas you could already be at roughly 160 -170 supply and possibly 2/2 with prestige 0 just because mules are ridiculous

[@Leonhart_93]

@@Max-sz9ez Not really, the 10 minute mark is definitely not enough time to get a 60-70 supply difference, which is at least 3000 minerals. Mules take a while to kick in, and the first few mules will have to cover the cost of the extra orbitals. And of course more units will die in that time frame in comparison to P1, so you will definitely have to spend more to get them back. Also the upgrades are definitely the same with both prestiges since Raynor has the cheap upgrades mastery and gas is always the limiting factor. Either way, I know P1 Raynor is very strong because 137 hp marines for 50 minerals or 460 hp firebats is clearly a more broken cost efficiency than most commanders have. And those other commanders have no problem ramping up without any mules. And above all I don't like the zerg playstyle. More expensive units for twice the hp is a trade I will pretty much always take.

[@Max-sz9ez]

@@Leonhart_93 I am not sure about the supply difference, but there definitely is a notable one. Gonna test it this evening and get back to you after that. P1 raynor isn't weak at all, but I think it is just a case of personal preference. Once you get up this bulky army it is amazing and extremely cost efficient. I think part of the reason why many people (including me) are a little ambivalent about this prestige is, that we are just so used to mules jumpstarting our economy and putting us ahead, since we are so used to them from playing raynor and /or multiplayer terran for such a long time, that without them everything just feels extremely slow. In the end it probably comes down to preference, whether you want to play a zerg style human wave assault or want to have a single bulky army, that you don't easily lose.

[@Leonhart_93]

@@Max-sz9ez Another way to put it, imagine people would be given a choice between mules or 2x hp bio in pro and ladder games. Do you think they would choose 2x hp bio? My guess is that they totally would and it would be called stupidly OP since bio couldn't be hard countered anymore by storm/bane/colossus/tank. And 20 marines in the fist 5 mins would clear the floor with anything the opponent might have.

[@Max-sz9ez]

@@Leonhart_93 that is true however coop does present a different environment than ladder. I see your point tho. The prestige is by no means weak it just feels weird to play when you are so used to mules. Most importantly i think it fixes some of raynors weakness against aoe mutations so that is definitely a good thing and a maxed out bioball that doesn't care about aoe is really really scary, especially with the droppod reinforce. Just to let you know I just finished testing it (same map, solo, same difficulty) and I was at about 135 to 140 supply marine,medic at the 10 Minute mark in game. While not as big as a gap as I would have thought it is still there even though it is not as notable. I have to admit that the overall strength of the army is probably lower since the P0 bioball is very much a glasscannon whereas p1 can take a beating and not instantly evaporate. Thanks for the civil discussion tho 👏 My mind has been changed

[@thecaneater]

CtG, my dude, when you do specific Prestige videos, can you hover over the Prestige so we can see what it is (the bonus, and the trade-off)?? Not all of us have them all memorized.

[@WaltherMoraRivera]

Is ever on the description of the video

[@Greylegato]

Awesome content, thanks again.

[@petertakacs6922]

Great content as always! Let me ask the real questions here: Just how many overlords did Ancalagon make at the end? :P

[@Ricardo_Rick]

Yes

[@EmperorNefarious1]

We could estimate, 303 units - drones for mineral saturation (9 at main + 18 expand +1 drone for hatch.) = 275

[@andrewgreeb916]

Bunker shrike turret got 1 kill, not a very good upgrade in my opinion (unless you're doing WOL no units produced)

[@johnnyspliff4900]

Its the equivalent of 1 non-upgraded marine unless they changed it, that means range too so the marines in the bunker get the advantage but not the turret :(

[@obosranecc2938]

f@@johnnyspliff4900 this upgrade just fills 1 slot in leveling up path😢

[@kennethuy7705]

Just curious what is better for bio as a whole p0 or p1 raynor?

[@Leonhart_93]

Do you like the zerg playstyle where you throw many cheap weak units at the enemy at the cost of having to do a lot of base macromanagement? Then P0 is for you. But if you like having an army that you can reliably keep alive forever if you are careful, then P1 all the way.

[@hereticalbug3112]

@@Leonhart_93 p0 is not that zergy

[@Leonhart_93]

@@hereticalbug3112 The argument is that you supposedly run out of minerals with P1 can can't remax fast enough. But you need to lose lots of marines to be in that kind of spot.

[@hereticalbug3112]

@@Leonhart_93 i don’t run out of mineral as p1, i actually have a large army and flooding with mineral

[@Leonhart_93]

@@hereticalbug3112 Then what is the point of P0?

[@onion69420]

Aoe, mainly psi storms are my bane so p1 is a god send for me

[@cheenouthao9458]

p1 raynor is strong due to double hp for bio uints, but you dont have mules which sucks. mules have a huge impact on raynors economy and his army as a whole. mules allow you to reinforce your army without having to worry about running out of minerals. p1 is only for those who really like to play bio as raynor, but for personally i like to play just p0 for raynor as he has access to mules.

[@tssdr9419]

raynor dilawan

[@kamikazegargoyle]

first time i've ever seen a p1 raynor max out with 3/3. No, i'm not salty, why'd you ask?

[@andrewgreeb916]

Really, I've done that consistently

[@cbalinefourcba4615]

I mean, if you cant reach 3/3 playing p1, I doubt you can play other Prestige effectively because p1 is probably the easiest to macro already.

[@Leonhart_93]

I have seen several players do that with Artanis and then only build Zealots and Dragoons.... When I asked ones about, he said that "you don't really need the upgrades". Of course, these people have no idea of the massive impact they can make. Depending on the units the difference can be like 3x bigger with upgrades than without when the enemy has 3/3.

[@paladinoateista9173]

@@Leonhart_93 and the Raynkr upgrades are the best ones

[@Amoeby]

@@Leonhart_93 Artanis doesn't always need armor upgrades because his units have guardian shell and shield overcharge if needed. Though while massing dragoons and zealots only I prefer to get armour and shield upgrades too but only on 2 forges. One always researches attack upgrades and the second one swaps armour and shield so when the first forge is done with attack upgrades I could continue getting double upgrades. With that being said, if you want to add reavers or hts then attack upgrades only is preferable imo.

[@tylerberthelot3703]

460hp firebats are nice tho

[@LinJer.]

"What's up starcraft fans?"

[@JJLL195]

I have seen some do nothing but marine(not even medic). They cant play p1. I have seen some cant read the enemy comp. they cant play p1. I have seen some refuse to make any mech. They cant play p1. People got used to solving problem with mules they forgot how to actually think, yes p0 is stronger, doesnt change the fact that 1 banshee can wipe 200 supply of reavers. When you dont have mules, think, who would have thunk.