Cultish: Revisting The Church of Christ

[@ApologiaStudios]

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[@kenroc546]

Where is the link about COC and ICOC?

[@RufijiTZ01]

You have come to the right place to hear supposed experts bash any theology they disagree with. This channel allows you to indulge in your fleshly desires to sew discontent and speak with disdain towards any you may disagree with. Why listen to Jesus and consider loving those with whom you disagree? Listen to this and mock alongside the Pharisees.

[@taylormyer8887]

I think a really constructive debate should be had between y'all/ Apologia Studios and Aaron Gallagher with the Gospel Broadcasting Network. You offered to fly someone out who is part of the CoC, and Aaron is, so why haven't you taken him up on the offer? This would allow people to hear compelling evidence from both sides and encourage believers to undergo a deeper study and form opinions based on their study. This debate needs to be had!

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@taylormyer8887 On Radio Free Geneva, Dr. James R. White, from Apologia, challenged them to a debate over a year ago, but Aaron admitted that his knowledge base was not up to par for such a challenge.

[@dsvet]

@@taylormyer8887 Aaron admitted that he could not debate strictly from the Greek as James White wanted to. I would like to note that this person "christ rescued me" also challenged those at GBN and was given the green light by director Don Blackwell himself to debate at a venue of her choice. Leann Ferguson, aka christ rescued me, made up every excuse in the book not to debate them calling them cowards and said they ran away from her. She even went so far as to imply they were misogynistic and would not debate her because of her gender. She has since relegated herself to the comments section and looks like she found a home here which is sweet.

[@christopherclanton5961]

I came out of the church of christ years ago and they do teach those things. Thank you for addressing this in a spirit of love.

[@ryanhart3159]

Praise God!🙏❤️.

[@lindahutchens8612]

Christopher Clanton What does the church of Christ teach that is not scriptural?

[@bama101010]

What Was the Purpose of Water Baptism? Foe the Jews and their “gospel of the kingdom,” water baptism was a required expression of believing faith. We see in Luke 7:28-30 those that were baptized with the baptism of John, justified God, and those that chose not to be baptized, rejected the counsel of God. Luke 7:28-30 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. John’s baptism was a symbolic baptism. God tells us in Hebrews 9:22 that there is no “remission of sins” without the shedding of blood. At this time, Christ’s blood had not yet been shed. Jesus spoke in Matthew 26:28 about His blood being the blood of the New Testament which is shed for “many” for the “remission of sins.” Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. We see in Acts 2:38 that on Pentecost, Peter preaches repentance and baptism for the “remission of sins.” Christ’s blood had been shed, so “remission of sins” was available for those who by faith obeyed and were baptized. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. We see in Mark 16:16 where Jesus speaks of believing faith accompanied by obedience. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. In I Samuel 15:22 we are told “behold to obey is better than sacrifice.” Christ is the Lamb of God. He willingly sacrificed Himself upon the cross. Those under the “gospel of the kingdom” who believed in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, possessed obedient faith and were baptized.

[@elizabethpadilla2909]

I was raised in the church of Christ… my dad being a preacher.. I left at the age of 40, so around 30 years.. I struggled with my faith the entire time thinking I had to be perfect.. and felt shameful for not being able to get it right.. I kinda fell away completely from God..I actually got involved in New Age because I thought I finally found answers .. but after a few years Jesus brought me full circle and back to him.. but not the COC… I’m growing and I love the Lord and I’m so thankful for the forgiveness I’ve found.. I still find myself having to rethink what I was taught and definitely indoctrinated into…

[@bama101010]

What Was the Purpose of Water Baptism? Foe the Jews and their “gospel of the kingdom,” water baptism was a required expression of believing faith. We see in Luke 7:28-30 those that were baptized with the baptism of John, justified God, and those that chose not to be baptized, rejected the counsel of God. Luke 7:28-30 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. John’s baptism was a symbolic baptism. God tells us in Hebrews 9:22 that there is no “remission of sins” without the shedding of blood. At this time, Christ’s blood had not yet been shed. Jesus spoke in Matthew 26:28 about His blood being the blood of the New Testament which is shed for “many” for the “remission of sins.” Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. We see in Acts 2:38 that on Pentecost, Peter preaches repentance and baptism for the “remission of sins.” Christ’s blood had been shed, so “remission of sins” was available for those who by faith obeyed and were baptized. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. We see in Mark 16:16 where Jesus speaks of believing faith accompanied by obedience. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. In I Samuel 15:22 we are told “behold to obey is better than sacrifice.” Christ is the Lamb of God. He willingly sacrificed Himself upon the cross. Those under the “gospel of the kingdom” who believed in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, possessed obedient faith and were baptized.

[@Totes_ma_Goat]

I was raised COC, and instead of letting me leave when I was in my early 20s, the COC so kindly disfellowshipped me. Embarrassing myself and my family. The COC is horrible. It is, in my opinion, a borderline cult. Depending on who the elders are, it plays a big hand in each church. The COC always claims no one started the COC, but of course, it was a man who started it. Caliven.

[@amandabradshaw1301]

I’m a former COC member who was raised in this denomination. It’s all I knew for the first 34 years of my life, and I finally left last June. My thoughts on this podcast are quite mixed. I do appreciate these men addressing the alarming COC teachings and really applaud Trey for bringing up the wacky history we have that most COC kids never learn. The fact we came from the same movement during the Second Great Awakening alongside Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses left me stunned. Especially since I had been told my entire life the COC is the “one true church that can trace its roots to the first century.” Then learning a prominent Mormon figure, Sidney Rigdon, was preaching with Alexander Campbell and then left to follow Joseph Smith shook my foundation even more. If you’re a former or current COC member, perhaps look into the scuffle the Campbells had with the Mormons over the name Church of Christ. The original Mormons went by that name, but later rebranded to the now LDS due to fighting with Campbell and his followers over the name. What I find upsetting, however, is the format in which you took to have this episode. I understand wanting to address comments made, however, Trey comes off as a complete jerk. I think it would have been far more beneficial to find COC published material (The Scriptural Sword, Apologetics Press) and address it’s theology head on. Instead we hear more verse-slinging and telling each other “no, you’re wrong. It’s my interpretation of scripture that’s right.” It’s this sort of mudslinging I grew up listening to that completely turned me off from the COC. I’m also wondering where you men draw the line at labeling a group a cult. Sounds like if a group doesn’t believe in strict Calvinistic theology (which has its own host of problems) you label them a cult. Quite broad criteria there.

[@robertknight3354]

To answer both of your issues. If you want more than what you see here then go to the first COC episode. Between the 2 I don't understand what you'd complain on. #2 a cult is an offshoot of traditional biblical Christianity where the difference is a few things. It has to put authority in the church order itself OVER the Bible in terms of truth and doctrine. A cult leader or leadership trumps the scripture. Another is ongoing revelation. Personal doctrinal revelation. Most cults also contain works of salvation. That way you can be fully dependent upon the cult itself. --You need it's personal revelation to know truth. --You need it's infallible knowledge of truth to understand what the usually "corrupted" Bible says. --You need to attend their church to continue in the prescribed works needed for salvation like baptism. These are Cultic variations and what separates it from a legitimate church. All other legitimate churches can have differences however a biblical church starts with scripture being infallible word of God and yes many different churches teach some differences and yet are all legitimate in the sense it is a Bible teaching church. Even a lukewarm church is legitimate compared to a cult. COC is a cult. They meet the criteria. It's history also shows you obviously.

[@Sherlock423]

Pink author of "Kingdom of the Cults" is the standard definition of cults used by traditional Christianity and Calvinists. Pink says, anything deviant from orthodox Christian doctrine. It is a circular definituon. Argument.. The Webster dictionary says a cult is a collective associated group. Like football fans, boy scouts, any church denomination, or hyper focused religious group with a uniform ideology and association. Meaning the definition of cult is contextual and different secular to religious and then Mormons define cult differently again. So does the Moonies. Contextual. Especially for Calvinists, contextual.

[@Sherlock423]

One general statement among traditional Christians of a cult is they teach a workspace salvation that supersedes or comes alongside salvation through messiah's atonement. This is based on the discussions in Galatians and Ephesians where Paul explicitly identifies them as being different and a deviation from the plan of redemption. I will also note that the Mormons use the plan of redemption as compared to the plan of salvation. Biblically it's the same thing. But each denomination has their own vocabulary that they use so Mormons don't refer to being saved they refer to being redeemed.

[@Sherlock423]

Keep in mind by the definition provided by Pink, and the 15 1600s the Anabaptist which has become the standard Baptist would be considered a cult in that time period. But by the 1700s the Anabaptist became the Baptist and labeled the Anabaptist as deviant and approximately from the 1700s the Baptist especially Calvinist have a long history of identifying opposing denominations as being colts or just not completely understanding the truth of scripture. This is my interpretation based on the popular Calvinist authors and teachers from the 1700s. Compared to the current Baptist Calvinist that hold to the reformed Baptist position especially hypercalvanism. And my own personal opinion hyper Calvinism is a cult. So all of my answer demonstrates the definition of cult is contextual and you have to identify what perspective is the person coming from who is defining it as a cult and why do they define it as a cult. Because sometimes it's just a denominational cultural difference. For example native Hawaiians who practice Christianity were said that they are worshiping demons if they use their traditional instruments so they were taught not to. but some native Hawaiians use their traditional instruments to honor the Lord sincerely today. And the Mormons have a big church down there and Christianity has a long history of Hawaiian native oppression that is being reversed in more recent years. In the same fashion that the crow tribe was used by general Custer to take out other native tribes and the crowd tribe was one of the most vicious native American tribes in North America. Now the crow tribe is also one of the strongest Christian religious tribes. Not going into preference of denomination just simply talking about tribes that have Christianity as part of their native religious preferences. Even though they were severely punished for practicing their culture by Christians later on they embraced it voluntarily. So definition of a cult is based on perspective and context and preference and bias of the person defining it.

[@Sherlock423]

If you're talking to Calvinist look at the Baptist confessional of Faith 1586. I believe that's the right year but I could be wrong. There is a Baptist confessional of faith from the 161,700s that reform Calvinist Baptist usually refer back to and that is generally, my experience, how they define Orthodox Christianity and any deviance from it as being a cult.

[@Lynne.E.Davies]

I was with Church of Christ for about 5 years. Gradually, I found the false doctrines harder and harder to tolerate. I found myself getting more and more angry about them, but the final straw was when the preacher was doing a series on Ephesians, and I was looking forward to hearing what he would have to say about Eph 2:8-9 - salvation by grace through faith, and not by works. He didn't even blink, and skipped right past these two verses I knew that day that I would have to leave and find a biblical church with sound doctrine. It was hard to leave, because I left people I loved behind, but I am very glad I did what I had to do. I am happy to say that I have been at a sound church for the past 5 years, and it is wonderful.

[@kramsdrawde8159]

Praise GOD the LORD has given you real discernment through his spirit...

[@GrahamVarnell]

Good for you! 👊

[@markgupton1313]

Keep in mind, the only time faith and works are used together in Scripture is to condemn the doctrine.

[@me73941]

​@@markgupton1313 That's not true. "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" James 2:20 "Ye see then how that by works man is justified, and not by faith only" James 2:24 In fact, the only time "faith only" is mentioned in Scripture, it is condemned.

[@me73941]

Some people are afraid of Ephesians 2:8-9, but there's no reason at all to be. What is Paul actually saying here? Paul is saying that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ and not by works of the old law of Moses that was taken out of the way and nailed to the cross by Christ. This verse is commonly misused to mean something that Paul is not actually saying. An exactly parallel verse is Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." Paul does not mean by "works" in Ephesians 2:8-9 to mean any physical action. Paul is referring specifically to works of the law of Moses.

[@MegaNetty1]

Hello, I'm a new Christian as of 5 years ago. My journey to get to the truth of Gods word has been extremely exhausting in a good way. I went to MANY Baptists and Protestant churches. Researched the Calvinists, Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's, New age Christianity, etc... quite a bit. As I stayed in the word of God every day and praying for truth, I was then left on my own with no fellowship, but still looking for truth. I kept studying The Word of God and stayed in prayer for guidance because I knew the truth was there and I had faith that God would lead me to that because of how hard I was seeking out of my love for Christ and what He did for me. Then I finally was lead to a Church of Christ. I have been there for nearly a year now and I am so grateful that I have the truth. I believe a lot of people are in odds with the truth because it doesn't seem fair. But, Jesus said most are not going to make it to heaven in Matthew 7:13-14 and to strive to get into heaven ...Strive in the Greek is "struggle" or "agonzie". Wow! The scritpures/passages that the COC teaches are all right there in Gods word. However, when I was going from church to church on my journey, I was hearing incomplete teachings. Like the Baptists, they were picking and choosing to fit their system of belief and leaving out soooooooo much of Gods word. They teach Gods word, but don't connect the dots. What they were teaching, the verses, did not stand alone. I knew it was dangerous, so I kept looking. The Protestants were teaching a very easy way, I believe it is refered to as hyper-grace. "Don't worry come as you are, Jesus has your back kind of thing" REMEMBER Christ said it is hard to get to heaven and most will not make it MATTHEW 7 and Luke 13:24-and many other verses. There are approx. 80 verses warning the "CHRISTIAN" not to lose what they have and to stay faithful unto death. And, that right there alone tells you Calvinism is just so wrong. I believe Calvinsits are making people twice as fit for hell as they are. The Church of Christ is the church in Acts. The 1st. century church. I can't find Alexader Campbell in the bible. He started nothing. He was just a man with a sign post you could say. Leading people back to the original word of God, that's all. I only have one (so far) issue with the COC that I will be working on soon. I believe the word "fornication" in Matthew is talking about no divorce except for the "betrothed" that is the audience for the exception for divorce, only betrothed people. So that means NO remarriage unless your spouse is dead. Again, remember Jesus said most are not going to make it to heaven and I believe all who have divorced and remarried while their spouse is living will go to hell unless they repent. Another huge reason most will not make it is because they believe in the most dangerous, deadly doctrine there is: Once saved always saved. That is from Satnas dark forces. The Bible is crystal clear you can walk away from your inheritance forfeiting your salvation with your free will. It is all there in Gods word IF you read all His words and don't pick and choose. Once second after you die it will be too late. There is only one true gospel and Lord God, Jesus Christ. If we don't DO His will and obey Him LIKE HE SAYS TO, we don't get in. God bless

[@lindahutchens8612]

Jeannette Anderson Welcome sister; the churches of Christ salute you (Romans 16:16).

[@dsvet]

Examining the Church of Christ | Answering The Error | Part 1kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWbGdKKcirZ0iJo Examining the Church of Christ: Part Two | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/lauzd2SNjZpmgsU Examining the Church of Christ: Part 3 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fWiUiYdrg6yiZ9E Examining the Church of Christ Part 4 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/q2ndlWNnnZJribs Examining the Church of Christ Part 5 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fZ7GZGN9fb52isk Examining the Church of Christ: Part 6 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/mYHOcmuYobmhmac

[@amberedwards1252]

Amen! You are correct! We all need to continue to study to rightly divide the word. 2 Tim 2:15

[@christrescuedme2182]

According to your take, freewill doesn't sound so free after all. Wow...."freewill to reject God and choose sin" (cringe). No thanks.

[@dsvet]

@@christrescuedme2182 lol did you have to change your account? Total depravity is cringe in that a loving God who the foundation of His throne is justice and righteousness condemns man supposedly born in sin for no crime of his own and hasn't transgressed the law in any way, shape or form other than being conceived and born. Total depravity = unjust cringe. However with our freewill we can choose to live a life of sin or choose to obey and follow Christ.

[@chuckbrown2318]

I grew up in the COC and finally left four years ago. The conservative or Non-Institutional churches spend a majority of their preaching time condemning other churches.

[@Oklahoma75]

Life long CoC member. I escaped 15 years ago. Thought I was an atheist because of the impossible doctrines of the church. Got very angry, called Christian’s hypocrites, called God sky daddy, laughed at believers. But, God didn’t give up. Sparing details, God and Jesus were faithful to me. About 7 years ago my journey culminated with putting it all down and surrendering myself to Christ. No back up plan, no plan b, I just realized I always believed that Jesus died according to scripture, he was buried and rose on the 3rd day according to scripture. Jesus is the Son of the Living God. There is no other name in which we are saved. We can’t earn it, we can’t get it done by works, baptism, communion, singing. It’s 💯 faith in Jesus. Period. End of story. Now, there is gravy to that type of faith. A changed life, deeds that we do, attempts to be like Christ. But we still fail. The great mystery is that true faith saves once and forever. I have a changed life. I see the beauty in creation. I’m no longer scared to die because some sin I committed that I didn’t ask forgiveness for or answer the altar call for. I go to a church with My wife. I study by myself and with others. I earnestly pray for Jesus to come take us home every day with NO FEAR. No church saves, Jesus saves.

[@HOSPlTALLER]

Glad your finding Christ, keep praying, keep seeking - it's a walk that starts with earnest steps. Just you and him and maybe along the way you'll meet some true brothers, sisters, friends - but just stay focused on him and you'll be guided faithfully. May the Lord bless you and keep you. Btw, your profile pic is horrendous :)

[@jssclrnshw]

The non-denominational churches of Christ do not teach that people earn their salvation through works.

[@evona9747]

Amen

[@HabibtiRo]

I grew up in a church of Christ and almost all of this rang true to me. In 6th grade I started attending private Baptist school and quickly got into debates with teachers and classmates about baptism. My well intended mother would send me equipped with Acts 2:38 amongst other verses to use as evidence that baptism = salvation. Friends would retort with basically all of Romans but I didn’t want to hear it lol I remember being 11 and wanting so badly to be baptized because I loved Jesus but my parents didn’t think I was ready to truly “deny myself and take up my cross”. I spent 2 years terrified that if I got hit by a car I would die and go to hell because I wasn’t baptized. in high school I started staying at a friends house every Saturday night I could just to go to church with her family. I knew something was missing, that the Jesus I was being taught at CoC couldn’t truly be. Praise God that during high school, then college, I finally found a Bible teaching church and came to know the Lord for myself (and ironically enough am now a worship Pastor that plays both guitar and piano 😂) But it’s taken decades to unravel and heal from the guilt, striving, works based faith my world had been built on. My precious parents are still faithful members of a CoC unfortunately, and equally terrible, both of my brothers have since renounced their faith. The pressure they received from youth pastors etc growing up was just more than they could bear and they have yet to learn who Jesus truly is.

[@StEpHeNno22]

Wow, sorry to hear about your family, but your story is amazing, thanks for sharing! 🙂

[@oleeshanorris5343]

Anybody in need of good church home in the DFW metroplex try Highland Hills United methodist church

[@b0robaby377]

That's great you did the right thing . I hope you will get you a hiscox standard manual for Baptist churches and you'll see what we as Baptist churches teach about baptism.

[@WITHLOVEJILLIAN]

This is SOOOOO important to talk about. Thank you guys for speaking the truth of Scripture boldly!

[@TheApologeticDog]

wh00p wh00p

[@GabrielPerez-js3xh]

I've been a member of a Church of Christ all my life, and this episode as well as the original episode examining the CoC grossly misrepresents the beliefs of CoCs. It makes it really hard for me to take seriously the other episodes from Cultish about things on which I am uninformed (such as Scientology, 7th Day Adventism, etc.), when I hear them lie about Churches of Christ.

[@christrescuedme2182]

The CoC's official literature bears witness to the fact that CoC's are not being misrepresented. But sadly, those who are still captives, don't realize what they are really being taught to believe, and the serious implications of those beliefs.

[@jacobgething2992]

The hosts genuinely make it sound like they’ve interacted with a minimal number of CoC members and referred to Wikipedia for their information.

[@iKeto_gal]

Can you then reply to some of the comments from ex members of your church when they talk about some of the issues they had with coc? Because then if you refute with scripture we can hear your perspective

[@nfcboys1984]

One question: Do only COC go to Heaven? Mic 🎤 drop…..

[@HOSPlTALLER]

@@nfcboys1984 That is the claim, they are the 1 true Church, Jesus was lying when he told the apostles that he would build his Church upon the Rock of Peter and the gates of Hell would not overcome it. They don't trust that the Holy Spirit would preserve Jesus' Holy bride and keep it from widespread universal error. No, they believe the Apostles did a terrible job and the disciples they taught didn't hold onto the faith properly so the Church fell and had to be restored... in the 19th Century! They can't tell you exactly when it fell, if they go too early they call into question the validity of the Bible, if they go too late then they have to accept several hundred years of the early Church Fathers and all the additional information that brings out (hint the early Church was nothing like the CoC) ...quite the dilemma.

[@theblondebirdgirl392]

A lot of these teachings are pretty common in the Church of Christ, I will admit. The primary reason that my husband & I chose the Church of Christ however was because of the sound leadership (Elders & deacons) & the commitment to partaking in communion every Sunday, which we believe is scriptural. The church we belong to definitely subscribes to a certain foundational doctrine, but other views & interpretations are respected! THAT is the beauty of the Church of Christ (& what makes it definitely not a cult) is that there is no overarching authority that oversees every church & dictates what is being preached/taught. Each church has its own personality, I have found. Churches in the South tend to be more Spirit-filled & Spirit lead, while Churches in the North are a bit more closed off to that. I also know for a fact that there is a younger generation of Church of Christ-goers that do NOT believe we are the one & only true church, are fine with instruments in worship, as well as other teachings that might stray from your typical idea of a conservative Church of Christ. It's different everywhere you go. You just can't put a blanket statement over all Churches of Christ & say "because you have this name on your building, that means you subscribe to all of these beliefs & you are a cult" lol anyway

[@christrescuedme2182]

Yet, all CoC's, as a whole, still have the same cultic and heretical soteriology.

[@torysetliff]

I definitely wouldn’t label the CoC, as a whole, a cult. There are certainly individual congregations that would qualify as such, though. I’ve been in the CoC my whole life (35 years) and your entire comment really resonated with me. My generation and younger has almost zero tolerance for the “We’re the only one’s attitude.” There is a movement within the CoC. But it’s slow, because we’re trying to not freak the older generation out and cause a split. But, we will steadily keep moving toward cross denominational Christian unity, because we want our children to have a faith based on Christ and Christ alone.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@torysetliff Sadly, many seem to be absolutely clueless when it comes to the damnable heresies that truly make up a Christian cult, such as: Baptismal Regeneration, Open Theism, Pelagianism, Deism, Sinless Perfectionism, etc., all of which are found in the CoC. The restoration movement also gave rise to other cults, such as LDS, JW's, SDA's, Oneness Pentecostalism, etc., which speaks volumes.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@torysetliff It is very concerning that the CoC is becoming even more ecumenical in order to infiltrate other denominations. But, that was Campbell's goal from the start. Here in Kentucky, Campbellism has infected our towns, churches and families, under the guise of “Church of Christ” (a misnomer) for over two centuries.

[@johnclocke]

Nailed it. You're spot on. Although they bring up some interesting, and some good points, there's an arrogance and ignorance in what these guys are saying. Especially with the "cult" talk. Every church of Christ I have ever been to is different. My home church is different now than it was 20 years ago. Except for the fundamental beliefs. The "we are the only ones going to heaven" idea is something that I have NEVER heard in church, or from people in any COC. It is an absurd idea put on the church from outsiders who don't seem to respect that people interpret parts of the Bible differently, and choose to worship differently. Basically, it feels to me like our rigid adherence to some basic beliefs and not bending to the ways of the world makes it easy to single out the COC. I laughed at the "Christ has been building his church for 2000 years", comment, which I took to be used as justification for changing beliefs and worship practices to fit society. Apparently there are plenty of bad experiences with COC congregations (maybe those specific congregations are cultish?). It's a bit shameful to lump them all together, especially when there is no centralized "leadership" and the doctrine they speak of is a very few key principles from our simple interpretation of (not cherry picked) scripture, not a list of rules and creeds created by governing bodies. Not even going to get into the "works" argument again.

[@johnyork-fj4lo]

It’s rich listening to Calvinists talk about the importance of context

[@wartster7445]

“You do your best, God will make up the rest” is a perversion of the gospel of Christ. God begins and finishes the work in us - we are powerless to do so ourselves. Praise Him for His faithfulness.

[@lindahutchens8612]

What must we Do (Acts 2:37) & the answer (Acts 2:38).

[@TheBillyDWilliams]

(Former Christian Church [related to CoC] pastor here) Part of the difficulty with this is that the CoC has no authoritative body determining its beliefs. The hosts of this show (and the last) are arguing like they would with an established group with a thorough confession. However, those confessions vary church by church. So of course some of the things in the previous video were accurate... and inaccurate at the same time, because there is no central list of Church of Christ beliefs. This kind of hyper-individualist evangelicalism can only be debated one-on-one, via clear definition of terms. The downside of these episodes is that there has been no neutral and agreed definition of terms. The Apologia guys are taking their Reformed Baptist understandings of certain terms ("saved", "works", and "faith" specifically) as a given, and the CoC members are taking their own understandings of those terms as a given, because that's what they've been taught to do. As a result, these videos come off as arrogant and condescending (I'm sure not intentionally), which Reformed Baptists already have a reputation for. Especially since it's responding to people who can't respond in turn. This isn't going to win anyone, and may just entrench people in their belief systems. One on one conversations > broadcasting to the entire internet.

[@xray342radio]

But the vast majority of the a capella Churches of Christ hold up these beliefs: denial of original sin, baptism being necessary for salvation, and performance-based assurance if salvation. Even without a formally written creed.

[@christylighthouse]

@@xray342radio This is both instrumental and acapella CoC churches. I remember when I was in my late 20's and the concept of original sin literally shook me to my core. I never grew up with that at all and all of the other beliefs you and the podcast mentioned were accurate beliefs I was taught since I was a child.

[@TheBillyDWilliams]

​@@xray342radio very true, but not all. Hence the multitudes of comments coming in saying that the last video misrepresented people's CoC experience, which led to the need for this video.

[@TheBillyDWilliams]

@@christylighthouse And (to show the validity of my original comment) I taught original sin as a Christian Church pastor. Two very different experiences of the same movement. It's a mess 😆Each individual person in the CoC/CC can have a pretty wide variety of experience/teaching, so these sorts of videos may end up doing more harm than good.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@TheBillyDWilliams All of the CoC's official literature bears witness to the fact that they are not misrepresenting them. They all hold to the same soteriology, which is works-based salvation.

[@anmcvey311]

I was introduced to Church of Christ by a friend in college. She gave me a book called "Muscle and a Shovel," which basically is a Church of Christ propoganda book that makes the claim that all the Christian denominations are preaching heresy. Using proof texts, the book appeals to your emotions by "proving" that what you've always been taught in the church is wrong: salvation is not by faith alone, baptism is required, musical instruments are evil, denominations are of the devil, you have to be in the one true Church of Christ to be saved, etc. This is an actual quote from the book: "If you're a member of a denomination, whether it be Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Mormon-- anything that Jesus Christ did not establish and buy with His blood, there's no question you're headed toward eternal destruction." I wasn't very studied in Scripture at this point of my life, but I had a sincere desire to grow in my faith and read the Bible more on my own. I'd been raised Lutheran but had never truly "made my faith my own." I started attending Church of Christ with this friend. I introduced it to my then boyfriend as well (now husband), who had been raised Lutheran. We were both caught up in it and were re-baptized at 20 years old because our baptism as an infant didn't count. We attended Church of Christ for two years, and we loved the people in the congregation we attended. It was one of the most welcoming churches we'd been to. We were discipled by an older couple who showed us so much love and care. We truly felt like we were doing the "right thing," but as time moved on, I started to struggle with the teaching. I felt that the sermons tended to focus more on me and what I must do to please God, rather than the finished work of Christ. After we were baptized, the preacher talked to us and said, "You do realize that now you are expected to live faithfully to receive the crown of life." It felt so dependent on me to uphold my end of the deal. Truthfully, I became self-righteous. I felt like I knew more than any other denomination. I felt like I needed to "save" people I knew out of other Christian denominations. I eventually realized that Church of Christ turned me into a little Pharisee. And I wanted nothing more to do with it. A few years ago, we left Church of Christ and started attending a baptist church in the area. I was amazed by how much Christ was preached and exalted. He was the main focus. Church was clearly about worshipping Him, not a checkbox of obedience. I am grateful for my time at Church of Christ because it's part of my faith journey, and it taught me a lot about myself and my inclination toward self-righteousness. I do believe that most of the people I knew at Church of Christ were genuine. They loved God and wanted to see that He was obeyed rightly. They were on fire for living holy lives, dedicated to studying and living out the Word of God. However, they drew the line of salvation in the wrong place. Faith is what saves us, and true faith produces works because we abide in Christ. Fruit is a result of salvation. Unfortunately, Church of Christ placed works on the wrong side of the equation, which either results in self-righteousness or insecurity because the focus is taken off of Christ and placed on yourself. I still struggle with legalism and works-based thinking because of this. It has been quite the journey learning to rely on Christ, rest in His grace, and trust in Him for the fruit of salvation.

[@lindahutchens8612]

James 2:24 says NOT by faith only.

[@lchamp04]

The proof of your faith is your works. Works don't make you justified.

[@HOSPlTALLER]

@angelmpoetry, I was in the ICOC, very similar experience to you - left 20 years ago (or should I say kicked for not agreeing with their unbiblical teaching), happy they did that as I may not have left of my own accord... but it took a very long time for me to be moved again by the Holy Spirit,. A lot of prayer from my wife to our glorious Triune God helped a lot and eventually God laid me low, took my pride and nearly my life - enough to wake me from my jaded attitude.

[@LoganWhaley-SGCL]

I’m a year late, but just wanted to say this is an amazing testimony! I thank God for how he revealed himself and these things to you and that you are now in a better place!

[@Jfchild]

Anyone who couldn’t see that Trey was thoroughly handled by Aaron using the word of God in the 6 hour discussion so far is biased IMO. Trey did not understand basic logic, sentence structure, grammar, tenses etc. He did not answer questions in hermeneutical consideration. Four guys can sit and dog the church of Christ, but that doesn’t mean what they say is true. Maybe GBN and these guys can set up a public debate forum so the errors supplied by these guys can be held next to biblical truth.

[@tdfish311]

@theapologeticdog would love to set up a debate with Aaron! I don't think Aaron wants to though....

[@Jfchild]

@@tdfish311 Since this comment y’all have had multiple debates, and honestly does he really need to at this point? You usually don’t even quote scripture in your opening statements. Take it seriously next time if you truly believe your doctrine. I get second hand embarrassment watching.

[@tdfish311]

@@Jfchild haha! Well, I saw it as a conversation which is how it was originally set up. I didn’t prepare for any of them and just shot from the hip. But you’re right, I didn’t just quote a lot of Scripture… I would bring the Scripture up on the screen so everyone could see it and it’s context. Watch the last two “Answering Aaron’s Errors” where we discuss how he doesn’t believe Jesus is fully God (and other things). That should be a deal breaker for you but…unfortunately you may not see it as a big issue.

[@Jfchild]

@@tdfish311 I have watched them. Can you give me a time stamp? A deal breaker for you should be when you couldn’t answer Acts 22:16. Tell me again, were Paul’s sins forgiven before or after he was baptized in that verse? Maybe I’m just not elect, lost, and can’t read plain English? My real question for you is why do you even care about any of this?! According to you, if someone is not elect, nothing you say can change their eternal fate. Which goes against Jesus telling his disciples to preach the gospel to EVERYONE (mark 16:15-16).Your doctrine is hogwash and you know it. If you really believe what you teach stop debating, discussing, and doing what you’re doing because it’s pointless.

[@tdfish311]

@@Jfchild kzbin.info/www/bejne/fp-bZ5JnfrGhkJo .... time stamp at 30:15. You have to ignore a lot of Scripture to say Paul was not justified (seen as if he had never sinned in the eyes of God) before he was baptized.

[@connihudson1578]

I grew up in the coc, what my mama called, "a sound congregation." Every thing you are saying about the coc beliefs is true. And it was crushing to me. When I was 31, after walking in the world as a depressed, fearful person, someone shared the truth of grace with me. The Holy Spirit openned my eyes and I was saved. Now, I'm 71. I teach the Word but still have to re-visit some of these issues. It was so ingrained! Thank you so much for this post, i can hardly wait to hear the 1st message.

[@connihudson1578]

We were also taught you had to be at church every Sunday so you could take communion. If not, you were in sin and danger of losing salvation.

[@tdfish311]

Praise God Conni!

[@vernonsteinkamp1088]

I am in the same situation as you and the same age. I finally settled in Pauline Right Division, Acts 9. kzbin.info/www/bejne/fYPFaWuwfrComcU

[@tdfish311]

Praise God Conni.

[@dsvet]

Examining the Church of Christ | Answering The Error | Part 1kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWbGdKKcirZ0iJo Examining the Church of Christ: Part Two | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/lauzd2SNjZpmgsU Examining the Church of Christ: Part 3 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fWiUiYdrg6yiZ9E Examining the Church of Christ Part 4 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/q2ndlWNnnZJribs Examining the Church of Christ Part 5 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fZ7GZGN9fb52isk Examining the Church of Christ: Part 6 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/mYHOcmuYobmhmac

[@allisongilmore9992]

Ex COC member, dad was the preacher. Based on experiences/conversations I would say I was a part of a more extreme sect of the COC. I was kicked out at 17 for telling my family I disagreed with their beliefs. I was told not to come back home or talk to my family unless I was coming back to the religion. I received a letter signed by all (10) members of the church announcing my expulsion of my membership and will be shunned until I “turn back”. Of course, there’s so many more things I could dive into. This was all spot on. It’s nice to hear truth to combat the unfortunate teachings of this denomination. The part where once you make a point and they have nothing to say so they change the subject is too real. 😵‍💫

[@christrescuedme2182]

Sadly, your experience is much more common than you may think, but the CoC's false guilt trips and secret code of silence keeps many from speaking out about it. Has anything improved with your family since you left?

[@alika1628]

Church of Christ member here, would like to express my thanks on speaking about these things, but I also would like to express that the COC’s as a whole are not unified in full doctrine there are remnants of sound doctrine within the COC, some have gone radically into left field and it breaks my heart. But thank you again for talking on these things, Jesus is Lord.

[@HOSPlTALLER]

Sound doctrine is a must, it's hard to find even that but keep praying, looking, investigating. Learn as much as you can, study Church history - both the CoC and start reading the early Church Fathers - more happened to the true early Church than is recorded in the book of Acts or even the NT. Read (or listen) to the Didache to learn how the real first century Christians were instructed to live (its only a 20min listen or 2000 word manual. But above all never stop praying to our Triune God, ask for his mercy and guidance.

[@ChristisLord2023]

This is my first time watching anything on this topic. It was prompted by a visit by two members. Thanks to Apologia and A&O ministries I have a fair understanding of what scripture tells us so I was able to teach the women who came to the door about reading in context. We discussed baptism, salvation, and falling away and I was able to recognize where their theology was confused. One of them was very staunch and didn't want to back down from what she thought but the other seemed surprised by what I was showing that scripture says. Praying for them both, I don't know what God's plan is but it seemed like one was truly open to learning. I now have other things I can bring into the conversation if I see them around the neighborhood again. Thank you guys for what you do.

[@s.c.i.7506]

Each congregation of the Church of Christ is independent, so they do vary.

[@christrescuedme2182]

They are speaking of the Stone/Campbell "restoration" CoC's, who all go by the CoC"s official literature, some of which is put out by "The Gospel Advocate." Beware if you EVER see that publishing co. name on any of the reading materials they provide!!

[@s.c.i.7506]

@@christrescuedme2182 That is simply incorrect. I have attended several different CoC in my lifetime and all of them were different with no teaching from any organizations or publishers. I no longer attend the CoC but I know how it operates.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@s.c.i.7506 There were never Sunday school curriculums or gospel tracts offered?

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@s.c.i.7506 Yes, or no?

[@evona9747]

I was wondering if i was a member of the Nairobi Christian church. They discipled me and counted the costs, we preached and went out to reach to people. My question is was i or am i saved cause i confessed Christ as Lord, repented and was baptised. This was before i reached my 20's . After i left and backslided huge. But now in my early 50 God has not and never stopped pursuing me. He has been so patient with me and gently nudging me.

[@jacknelson4073]

I came out of the ICOC after a really bad experience (this is in Melbourne Australia) I have since had some interactions with CoC people although I attend a Presbyterian church now. It seems that a large number of traditionally CoC churches have since distanced themselves from traditional CoC beliefs re: baptism, born perfect etc. However, there is a core of CoC folk that still hold to those old teachings. This may explain some of the messages that came through. Hope this is helpful and thankyou for the amazing work you guys do. God bless

[@jacknelson4073]

P.s. this is a really, really good rundown of the CoC views in my own experience. You guys have done your research

[@xray342radio]

Yes, the ICOC is a wreck. Lawsuits have been filed against them involving sexual abuse of minors, with more to come. Yes, there are congregations in the Churches of Christ that are becoming more evangelical, like their (Independent) Christian Church cousins and take more acceptable, yet minority stands on some issues, such as baptism being the normal point in time one is saved and not being strictly necessary.

[@lotusjumpingspider8761]

@@xray342radio haha nice to see you here xray. Big fan of your work debunking that cult

[@61loneviking]

It sounds to me that unless you’re a five point Tulip Calvinist, then these panel members have no use for your theology. I’m Lutheran (LCMS) with a lot of exposure to the CofC. My dad and his family are CofC. One of my cousins was a preacher for many years. Baptismal regeneration, A Capella music, you can turn away from Christianity-all very similar to Lutheran beliefs. So, I guess I’m a heretic too. And I think I’m done watching this channel unless things change.

[@nickrussell8029]

I used to love watching these videos in the series. I thought I was learning about different denominations and beliefs and groups. Then I listen to one that I know personally and was astounded at how blatantly misguided their “expert” was. Really disappointing. I now have to question every word I ever heard from these men. It’s clear to see they have doctrines, like many groups, if your not one of them your a cult, and they too like to explain away clear versus that contradicts their view. I was able to get past that and try to learn and gain knowledge where I could. Sadly it seems they are no better then the groups they condemn and you cant believe their evidence.

[@61loneviking]

@@nickrussell8029 Well said! That’s how I feel after watching this one.

[@nickrussell8029]

They actually called me out at least twice in this video twice I haven’t made it all the way through and likely won’t. it seems woefully misinformed of the teaching. I spent my entire life in CoC the claims they are making are not accurate or at best poorly represented. I prefer to say a misconception as not to assume a hostile motive. It’s sad that Christian’s in different denominations attack one another. Most groups tend to believe they are the only ones that have it right and everyone else is doomed. The saddest part is 99 plus percent of what each denomination believes is identical. We all seem to believe that faith is key, and faith is an active thing, faith compels obedience. Yet doctrinal terms and definitions seem to put people into a bubble they think they have to defend. I have many friends who are pastors and missionaries from various denominations and have worked along side, studied and discussed with them. I want to know what they believe and why to test what I believe. I can admit the CoC is not perfect, just like each denomination there are flaws inserted by humans. Maybe if people had more humility they would come to a better understanding and be less accusatory and more accurate. Sadly I don’t see that happening people tend to like their factions more then they love other Christians.

[@andreashannon3928]

Yes thank you! I feel it is so disingenuous how they paint these different concepts about baptism, sin etc. As if there hasn't been debate and different thoughtful Christian opinions for a long time. As if only their definitions are the true ones

[@jacobhisaw5530]

I appreciate this comment! I’m a minister in churches of Christ and found the video to be misguided. I don’t like how neither one of the main Cultish guys really knew what they were talking about. Like to claim that baptismal regeneration isn’t an orthodox view really just shows how little you know about church history/orthodoxy. To claim that the church of Christ is a cult is a VERY big claim, and it’s one that I’d expect lots of evidence for. Needless to say, this episode wasn’t that. That being said, all my experiences with the men on the panel have been nothing but pleasant. None of what I said should be taken as an insult.

[@josephstark9641]

I try leaving the church of Christ but everytime I try to leave, I get rebuked by the people in the congregation, even by my own brother. Whenever I’m not at church they want a full explained answer as to why I was not at church.

[@nfcboys1984]

You can do it Joseph. My wife is a former COC and her dad is a 40 year preacher in the COC. The damage that this bad theology has done to my wife is immeasurable. Please please walk away! I know how painful this is and will be but Gods grace and protection is with you dear brother.

[@christrescuedme2182]

I was in the CoC for over 30+years until the Lord saved me and led me into green pastures.

[@RealFredbaby]

you can just leave if you've already tried and they keep trying to get a full explanation. if you want to do it politely, write a letter and sign it, send it. however you don't need to refute their points after that, just start attending somewhere else

[@joncothranphotography9375]

Wow Brothers! My daughter has recently joined The Church of Christ and you have confirmed everything that I have seen and felt. She is trying to convince me that I need to join this cult. Thanks!

[@christrescuedme2182]

"Christ Rescued Me from the Church of Christ"...by Lee Anne Ferguson

[@joncothranphotography9375]

@@christrescuedme2182 I'll remember that when she gets ready. She just won't hear it currently.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@joncothranphotography9375 Naturally, she would be reluctant due to being under severe cultic CoC conditioning. The book would be more for you, in that it would equip you with all the biblical tools that you would need in order to break through the CoC's heretical language barriers. I was in the CoC for over 30+years, until the Lord saved me. He then gave me the ability to break through the CoC’s secretive, sacramental system, in order to launch a full-scale invasion of truth, to help lead others out of legalistic bondage into freedom in Christ and true obedient faith, which comes only by God’s grace. May God bless your efforts to reach your daughter with the truth before it is too late.

[@lindahutchens8612]

Church of Christ (Romans 16:16) is NOT a cult; it is the church the Lord purchased with His own blood; Acts 20:28. Read Acts 2:36-47 regarding the first gospel sermon (Acts 2:36-38) and note what we shall do. Also read Acts 8:35-39 and note what must be done when Jesus is preached.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@lindahutchens8612 Really? Then you should be able to reconcile the CoC"s "new terms" of salvation with Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages (e.g., Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:29-30; 10:16 and Gal. 3:6-8).. We are STILL waiting patiently....

[@bryanhodge3978]

Saving faith includes obedience.

[@nvrprfct9176]

order of operations. does saving faith proceed or precede obedience?

[@bryanhodge3978]

Hebrews 11:30; Hebrews 11:7. The issue is not does faith save but when does faith save.

[@hilarykasamani6994]

If its of faith its no longer of works

[@bryanhodge3978]

Agreed. Now define works.

[@nvrprfct9176]

@@bryanhodge3978 sorry, but you didn't quite answer my question: does saving faith proceed or precede obedience? also: you seem to be taking issue with the phrase "saving faith", but you are the one who used it; I'm just wanting clarification on your understanding of these terms.

[@immortalfool7627]

I appreciate your heart for trying to follow the scriptures. In my late teens I watched the seven hundred club , heard the gospel and learned of miracles from God. I believed and prayed the prayer of faith. I felt a warm joyful feeling come over me. The problem! I engaged in sexual immorality for the first time and shortly thereafter had an experience where demons were discovered in me! I heard myself say “You can’t have him he’s ours”. Now if all you need to be saved is to believe in Jesus and Christians can’t be possessed by demonic spirits something isn’t right here! I know this is a personal experience and you can’t really argue someone’s experience. Years later I was met by a member of International Church of Christ and subsequently got converted. Yes I was baptized in water. I’ve been saved both ways now. I concluded that praying and believing in Jesus is not complete salvation because Christians can’t be demonically possessed so that must be wrong.

[@rickbelden2319]

I came from the Church Of Christ growing up. Over the years I began to distance myself from them because of the attitude that I saw coming from many that claimed to be the true followers of Christ. As I examined the ministry of Jesus, specifically His encounters with the Pharisees, I began to see that many COC members were nothing more than modern day Pharisees. They will create rules and laws to follow that God never established for people “placing heavy burdens on people difficult to bear”. The gospel is rarely ever proclaimed in love but rather with condemnation from COC people. I do still hold to some teaching from COC, primarily that baptism is essential for salvation. I’ve studied that out myself and heard both sides of the argument and biblically there is a strong case for the requirement of baptism. I however take a nuanced approach to that even. Can someone be saved without being immersed? To that I would say maybe? God in His mercy may very well provide forgiveness aside from baptism but I’m not commanded to teach maybes and exceptions. Jesus clearly commanded “teaching them all I have commanded you, baptizing them in the name of the father, son and Holy Spirit”. We are commanded by JESUS Himself to teach and practice baptism. That command alone to me makes it essential. So when someone asks me “what must I do to be saved?” My response will always be “repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” just as Peter proclaimed at Pentecost. I have also come to accept anyone that proclaims faith in Jesus as a brother in Christ. I feel it does more harm than good when Gods people insist on fighting over these things. Also please know that not all COC congregations are cultish in their behavior. There are some out there that are very loving and kind and seek to serve. At least in the north. In my experience most of the more legalistic COC churches are in the south. Many of those churches are dying and won’t be around much longer because they really don’t evangelize to the lost. They’re more like country clubs at this point.

[@thenillion9341]

Kip McKean also started ICC-International Christian Church. We were doing “bible studies” but one time I realized that they were getting the study from a book by Kip. During a “bible study” they actually mentioned that they get called a cult. Me- thinking that they meant Christianity, I asked “Do you mean Christians or your church?” They replied “the church”. Even ICC knows that they get called a cult but still deny it. Quite alarming. They don’t investigate why and think that it’s the same persecution that’s talked about by Jesus.

[@brianyeager915]

This is an interesting show. When you quoted part of Moroni 10:32 as though it was Scripture (Book of Mormon; not Scripture), this is what came to my mind... "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works" (Titus 2:11-14). Seems to me you have a problem with the actual Scripture in light of your doctrines.

[@musicisalwaysthevibe]

It’s not a cult just people make mistakes not everybody is perfect, the preacher making mistakes is a sign that’s that preacher is a real person that messes up and sins.

[@christrescuedme2182]

It's not about perfection. It's about what the true gospel really is, Who Christ really is, and how He really saves. We are commanded to believe the gospel (Mk. 1:15), not a false version of it, which God places under a divine curse (Gal. 1:6-9).

[@Mrssmith2011]

I grew up in a church of Christ. My father was a family/youth minister for 24 years. We never went to any church that wasn’t church of Christ growing up. I went to a church of Christ private university, and it wasn’t until I had graduated college and was a grown adult that I left the church of Christ because they never talked about Jesus - it was always advice about how to live morally and boasting about people and missions. Everything that Trey has said is true and if it’s not said outright, it is always implied - “we are born perfect”: no body ever told me this, but I 1000% had this mentality as a child/teen/early adult. I remember passing a Baptist church on the way to church and when I asked my dad why we didn’t go there or have any friends there, he said, “We’ll, we just believe the Bible, and they believe some things that aren’t in the Bible.” - and that was it. This gives a righteous piety attitude to the congregants (I know it did me). I never put two and two together that the belief in baptism is salvation = works based faith. It’s very true, I still struggle with this as an adult who hasn’t attended a church of Christ in 15 years. Now my family and many friends are still church of Christ members. I will say that the community is very tight and hospitable if you can stand the judgment 😂. I’m so grateful for Tyler - thank you for what you are doing, brother!

[@christrescuedme2182]

Thanks for sharing Cara!! I understand what its like living in an area infested with CoC's. Imagine being an author who has published a book exposing the CoC. It's only a miracle of God's grace that I've not been stoned yet! Pray for me!!

[@johnsambo9379]

That's total crap. I grew up in the Church of Christ. It was so boring because all they ever did was talk about Jesus. You are full of it. Lol

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@johnsambo9379 Then why were you bored?

[@tdfish311]

Thanks for sharing, Cara.

[@Jfchild]

@@christrescuedme2182 do you have a link to your book? I would like to counter expose it.

[@ryankimbrough9597]

I went to a small church that was affiliated with the Church Of Christ and it planted seeds of doubt into my heart about my salvation. It seemed like you had to maintain your salvation through works. Also I became a Christian when I repented of my sins and asked Jesus to be Lord of my life and not when I was baptized later on. If I wasn't truly saved when I asked Jesus to became Lord of my life then how would I know if I was saved after I was Baptized by water. It made my spirit uneasy and I should have known something was wrong right away. I stopped going after about a month when I verified that the pastor believed you had to be baptized with water in order to be saved. Thanks for the podcast it helped clarify some things.

[@dsvet]

Examining the Church of Christ | Answering The Error | Part 1kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWbGdKKcirZ0iJo Examining the Church of Christ: Part Two | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/lauzd2SNjZpmgsU Examining the Church of Christ: Part 3 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fWiUiYdrg6yiZ9E Examining the Church of Christ Part 4 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/q2ndlWNnnZJribs Examining the Church of Christ Part 5 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fZ7GZGN9fb52isk Examining the Church of Christ: Part 6 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/mYHOcmuYobmhmac

[@michaelcarter9395]

Church of Christ nearly destroyed our family ... They picked my Brother's Wife, and ran his life, and turned him against us, and the concept of Family...

[@HOSPlTALLER]

Pray for him, give the Holy Ghost space to work - sooner or later his heart will turn towards God if that is truly who he seeks.

[@davidcawrowl3865]

I was swept up into the C of C /Crossroads movement in the 1970s as a student at Florida State and was part of a "church on fire". The fervor was quite remarkable; something I wish everyone could experience. Probably was as close to the fervor experienced by the apostles as humanly possible. Our minister would close his sermons by saying, "I can't say anything to you all because you are doing it already" -- he had no words of conviction to give -- since we were already living the consecrated life. When is the last time you have ever heard a minister say such a thing? Likely never I would presume. Anyway I moved back to my home state of Mississippi after a year, but I will never forget my Crossroad experience.

[@ddff5242]

Ok. So, I'm not a coc or baptist defender. I think that it's perfectly reasonable to land on either side of the coin on baptism. What makes me sad is that They act like it's just crazy to have any opinion outside of theirs. If interested in seeing trey debate a coc person here is a good one to watch. You will notice in this debate that trey has a very hard time answering acts 22 from aaron. He gets snarky and sarcastic and dodges the questions. Again, not a coc defender but it's hard not to see where they are coming from if you simply read scripture. I don't think it's some crazy twisted interpretation of scripture like they make it sound like in this cultish video. Of course, I'm not discounting the really bad experiences people have had that led them out of coc. I completely believe them too. I just think there is a little "throwing the baby out with the bathwater " happening here. Here is the link to the debate on baptism if you are interested in seeing a talk where both sides are represented and not one side speaking denomination speak without being challenged.... kzbin.info/www/bejne/m57be5qpr9Rkgs0 What's interesting is this cultish video was put up pretty close to after this debate happened. Notice how when they talk about coc people being scared to engage them they don't mention this debate with trey and aaron that literally just happened? Probably because they know that it doesn't look great for trey.

[@lindahutchens8612]

DD FF Aaron Gallagher of the church of Christ did an awesome job!!!!!

[@dsvet]

Examining the Church of Christ | Answering The Error | Part 1kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWbGdKKcirZ0iJo Examining the Church of Christ: Part Two | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/lauzd2SNjZpmgsU Examining the Church of Christ: Part 3 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fWiUiYdrg6yiZ9E Examining the Church of Christ Part 4 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/q2ndlWNnnZJribs Examining the Church of Christ Part 5 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fZ7GZGN9fb52isk Examining the Church of Christ: Part 6 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/mYHOcmuYobmhmac

[@tdfish311]

@@dsvet thanks for sharing these! I've had many reach out on the explanation of Acts 22 and Paul's conversion. It is hard to disregard all of the Scriptures mentioned to support Paul was considered a worshipper of God and righteous before he was baptized. If you accept the CoC explanation then you have to be okay with contradicting all of the Scriptures brought up. Thanks again for sharing.

[@dsvet]

@@tdfish311 You're welcome. On the contrary, Aaron's explanation harmonized perfectly with scripture whereas Trey's fell short. Even though Saul had been praying for 3 days, he was still in his sin and as Aaron said there are 3 levels of inspiration to drive this truth home. He needed to be immersed in water to have those sins washed away. Good discussion regardless..

[@tdfish311]

@@dsvet then maybe you can answer all the Scriptures that AG wouldn’t…How is Jesus hearing Paul’s prayers and answering them if this is true? John 9:31 (ESV): 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him. Proverbs 15:29 (ESV): 29 The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous. Again, how is Christ (The God Man) hearing Paul’s prayers? Isaiah 59:2 (ESV): a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear. Do you believe these scriptures contradict? If you say he wasn’t considered righteous before he was baptized then you’d have to admit they do (but it would be hard for you to). Here is how they don’t contradict… Because he believed and trusted in Christ. Romans 5:1 (ESV): since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. That all took place before he was baptized!

[@DavidSandyOfficial]

The Church of Christ can't rest in Christ if they're holding onto their dead works.

[@christrescuedme2182]

So glad you once again challenged the Robertsons to a cross-examination, for they are scared to death of Christians, especially those of the reformed camp, for we are the most spiritually equipped to refute their errors.

[@LtDeadeye]

He should challenge Aaron Gallagher of GBN.

[@theparishreformed]

@@LtDeadeye Already on it. Come check out our latest series with Aaron.

[@LtDeadeye]

@@theparishreformed Will do! Hi from DeGaulle Dr. Coc in New Orleans :)

[@dsvet]

Once Saved, Always Saved? Or Continual Obedience to God? Gallagher/FisherPart 6kzbin.info/www/bejne/g6jXqaiBprV5ntk

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@LtDeadeye How can the CoC ever reconcile Genesis 4:26 with its “new terms” of salvation (baptismal regeneration)? Even in Romans 10:13, Apostle Paul quoted Joel 2:32 to reveal that God’s people have been calling upon the name of the Lord in prayer since the get-go.

[@robertjackson8790]

I am in the Church of Christ and found a lot of this to be untrue

[@jamesaust3272]

If you're born again you would understand the Church of Christ. Strive to love God, and you will find salvation.

[@christrescuedme2182]

James, how is one born again?

[@kevinmarku2944]

John 3:3 Unless one is born of water and spirit "baptism" and the "holy spirit"@@christrescuedme2182

[@WITHLOVEJILLIAN]

I am so grateful for these episodes. The Restoration Movement needs to be exposed and ppl freed from the works based salvation they claim to not follow or believer, but absolutely do!

[@newhavenfishermen]

Is there such a thing as a no works salvation after being justified ? Once we are born again , can we return to the world?

[@WITHLOVEJILLIAN]

@@newhavenfishermen The COC believes in works to receive salvation. They say they don’t and they’ll argue that baptism isn’t a work but it is. In reality, in truth, once saved - justified - we will enter glory one day. Our salvation is secure and we can have full assurance. SOLI DEO GLORIA.

[@quralwilliams9716]

I almost fell into this cult a week ago but because of these 2 episodes on the CoC I dodged a bullet. Thank YOU GUYS SOOOOO MUCH

[@lindahutchens8612]

Church of Christ (Romans 16:16) is not a cult and it is my hope that you study the following scriptures regarding the church. The Bible reveals the one body (Ephesians 4:4) and that body is the church (Colossians 1:18). The church began on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:36-47). Jesus is the one Head of the one body(Colossians 1:18). Jesus is the Savior of the one body (Ephesians 5:23-25), the church that HE bought with HIS own blood (Acts 20:28). So if Christ is the Head of the one body, and the body is the church; how many churches are there? Answer: 1. Please return to the Lord's church and have someone study with you. He didn't die for all the different sectarian groups we have today teaching doctrines of men such as the Sinner's Prayer and asking Jesus into ones heart as their personal Savior; this is not taught in the word of God. Please read Acts 8:35-39 and note what is taught when Jesus is preached. The Bible reveals that upon our obedience to God's instructive faith (Acts 2:41) God adds the saved (Acts 2;47) to the ONE body of Christ (Ephesians 4:4), the church of Christ (Romans 16:16). It's the Bible that tells us there were about 3,000 people who heard these words first preached by Peter and gladly receiving it they were baptized (Acts 2:41). Those New Testament Christians continued in the apostle's doctrine; Acts 2:42-46. The met on the first day of the week to pray (Acts 2:42; 20:7), sing Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16), give of their means (I Corinthians 16:1-2), to partake of the Lord's supper and to be exhorted by preaching (Acts 20:7). Don't let Satan tell you that church of Christ is a cult. He did the same thing in the garden of Eden when he said "you surely shall not die and we all know how that turned out.

[@jayandrew87]

How did you almost “fall into” it? These men are all Calvinist’s, (which is antithetical to the God of the Bible’s nature) and slander what they do not understand. It’s a gross inaccurate representation of the facts at best, and intentional libel by a disgruntled ex member at worst. kzbin.info/www/bejne/boLKq4dqmpuFjbsfeature=shared

[@homeschoolmom8804]

I was born and raised coC-4 generations strong. I left the church officially in 2020. I will say, the point about not being denominational has more to do with congregations being autonomous and not governed by a conference or other body. Now, they will “not be in fellowship” with congregations they disagree with.

[@OkieAllDay]

Will you call out Lutherans for their view on baptismal regeneration as well?

[@boblob2003]

Love how you guys pig-pile on each other's hearsay comments. Reminds me of the Sanhedrin. Good job!!!

[@roysjudy]

100,000 members of the Church of Christ could tell Trey that they don't believe something and he would still say "they must not know what they're talking about, I know what they believe.". Welcome back to the straw man factory.

[@lindahutchens8612]

Or Trey would say "you don't know my heart."

[@zacdredge3859]

Where is the link to the resource Trey mentions regarding the history of different branches of CoC?

[@brianyeager915]

Erring Christians addressed in James were told: "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded" (James 4:8). To infer it is not in man's freewill to change his own heart is to deny this simple passage.

[@christrescuedme2182]

It is God Who leads His people in paths of righteousness for His name sake (Ps. 23:3). The ability to truly “cleanse ourselves” is the fruit of the work God accomplishes in His people, for “the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 Jn. 1:7). “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works” (Eph. 2:10). So we can draw near in full assurance of faith with a clean conscience, for He is faithful (Heb. 10:22).

[@brianyeager915]

@@christrescuedme2182 I am not going to get caught up in the sin of striving about words to no profit (II Timothy 2:14-18). One of many problems with "Reformed Theology" is that man's part of salvation is removed. God has done His part (you guys seem to understand a little bit of that). Where you fail is in that God has given man His part too (Acts 2:40, Philippians 2:12, etc.). We could play your Scripture vs mine all day. That is fruitless. Man has been equipped unto every good work by the inspired word of God (II Timothy 3:15-17). To be doers (James 1:18-27). To be judged on what you have done or not done (John 5:28-29 and II Corinthians 5:10). Grace, faith, hope, works, etc. All of it. Observe ALL THINGS (Matthew 28:18-20). You're not saved by works alone (Ephesians 2:1-10). When you've done all you must do, you do not credit yourself with anything (Luke 17:7-10). You guys have these truths twisted and will answer for that (II Peter 3:15-17). My contact information is on my KZbin page. If you (or others) want to be student, call me up. I answer the phone.

[@brianyeager915]

@@christrescuedme2182 Howdy. He did what Ezekiel 18 teaches a person that was under the Law of Moses to do. Read the whole chapter as Calvinism is debunked therein. Again, my contact information is on my KZbin page if you are honestly seeking (cf. Hebrews 11:6) the truth. To have a real conversation, we'd be better off talking to one another and getting to know one another. With souls on the line, this is the right way to have a Bible discussion. Please, contact me.

[@christrescuedme2182]

Can you demonstrate an ability to reconcile the CoC's "new terms of salvation" with Hebrews 4:2, which reveals that the gospel in the Old Testament is the SAME GOSPEL of the New Testament?

[@jasminepotts9062]

I grew up in the church of Christ and went with my great grandma (who I lived with) three times a week. In my 12 years attending I was being physically and sexually abused by one of my criminal church-going family members. I tried reaching out to preacher and elders but wasn’t taken seriously bc I was young and my family had attended for a longer time than I had. I ended up in the hospital after numerous attempts on my own life and wasn’t accepted back by family and they had said the church I attended has shunned me too. Im not sure if they were telling the truth about that or not. But I haven’t gone back bc of my fear that I’d still be unaccepted. Needless to say I lost all respect for them and ended up hating that church and God in general. CPS ended up taking me and 3 years later I was introduced to a Baptist church by a group home staff who had helped me to be able to go to church. I healed my relationship with God but not the religion that turned its back on me. Now im 23 and want to try attending a church of Christ (definitely not the one I attended as a child). My new family supports me and will come with me to help make sure im ok mentally. I agree with most of the things church of Christ teaches but I feel like I was failed by the one I attended. Idk. I want to go but I’m still worried

[@christrescuedme2182]

Your story is heart-breaking, but sadly typical of so many cults. The CoC is definitely a cult. I was in it for over 30+years, and it never got better, only worse, until the Lord rescued and saved me. Feel free to reach out to me if you need help.

[@biblebeliever3195]

Have you received any help from police or anyone else? The sins done against you are very great. As the Scripture: Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Also as Per 1 Cor 6:9,10; Gal 5:19-21, Rev 21:8,27 etc. That the sexually immoral shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Thus in application, those who force such sexual acts on others, and corrupting children especially commit sins that will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord. 2 Thess 1:9. God hates the sins done to you and will punish with perfect justice. If they die impenitent they will face this everlasting destruction. Jonathan Edwards sermon sinners in the hands of an angry God is very good for comfort for justice. Thus it is known that Christ died for His sheep and bore all their sins on the cross, satisfying God's justice to His sheep. Having died, being buried and rose again the third day, the resurrection and the life. Those who believe on Him have their sins forgiven and He will in no wise cast out. One can cast all their cares upon Him for He cares for them and He promises to never leave or forsake you. See John chapter 10, 1 Cor 15, John 6:37, Hebrews 13:5 May God bring justice for you. May He bring sound believers to help you. May you find comfort in Christ and daily approach the throne of grace through Christ and find comfort in God and all His promises which are yes and amen. One moment in heaven and all the scars of life are forgotten as it were; as in His presence is fullness of joy, peace that surpasses all understanding. Eye has not seen, ear has not heard what God has prepared in store for those who love Him. See: Heb 4:16, 2 Cor 1:20, Psalm 16:11, Phil 4:7, 1 Cor 2:9

[@immortalfool7627]

I’m so sorry such a horrible thing happened to you! I’m glad CPS got involved. No one believed you!? Shockingly terrible. Stay in your Bible. Jesus himself said “…baptize them in the name of the father the son and the Holy Spirit”.

[@RufijiTZ01]

Are you asserting that any church affiliated with the Stone-Campbell Movement is participating in a cult? Additionally, you are clearly promoting a Calvinist theological orientation. Would you equally assert thoes that are Arminian are cultish as well?

[@christrescuedme2182]

Only if Arminians are consistent with their theology, but thankfully most are not.

[@RufijiTZ01]

@Christ Rescued Me! Just so I understand, any theological framework different than Calvanisim is a cult? In other words, if someone has a differing view they're bound for hell?

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@RufijiTZ01 Any religion that consistently denies that salvation is by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone is a false religion, period.

[@RufijiTZ01]

@Christ Rescued Me! I am a student so please forgive my ignorance. Is it only Calvinism that teaches the Biblical formula which you articulated? What about those that disagree with Calvin's idea of predestination? Is the notion of predestination an essential belief for salvation?

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@RufijiTZ01 No need to apologize friend. God's saving gifts of grace and faith in Christ alone as our only hope of heaven, are not mere ideas of Calvin, because they are actual biblical facts according to God's Word. But one can initially be saved without even knowing anything about predestination.

[@annaboshier6680]

I had three girls approach me on the street who asked me to watch a presentation for their theology project. She ended up taking me through some verses about Passover, and at the end said to be saved we had to take the Passover in order to receive salvation.

[@torysetliff]

This sounds a lot like the Church of God, or Mother God cult. Mike Winger has a couple of great videos on this group.

[@captnMorgan41424]

I wonder If y'all would condemn the early church/fathers as heretics for teaching baptismal regeneration or being baptized to receive the forgiveness of sins.

[@andreashannon3928]

Yes exactly!

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@andreashannon3928 Do you really want to look to the early "church fathers" as your authority? If so, you may want to take into consideration the fact that their language was very different from ours. Their way of expressing the essential doctrines of the gospel were far from perfect, but thankfully we are no longer living in the "dark ages" so to speak, for knowledge has increased (Dan. 12:4). Some of them referred to baptism as the "laver of regeneration" but even their overall definition of it was a far cry from that of the CoC's baptismal regeneration doctrine. And their writings were not even divinely protected like the Bible is, for they were not divinely inspired, which means God may have allowed their writings to be edited and translated by Jesuit infiltrators in order to confuse the issue. Because the more one looks into their writings, the more you find some very strange inconsistencies, like those of Martin Luther. However, we must also take into consideration the fact that he was still coming out of the deep darkness of Romanism, and hopefully he made it all the way out before he died. Thankfully, it seems that God did enable him to look beyond the Romanists sacramental salvation trappings enough to grasp the true gospel and look to Christ alone for His salvation.

[@bookchapterverse6830]

They label anyone as a "cult" if they do not conform to the manufactured "orthodoxy" that has a shorter history than most of the groups they target and mock.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@hawkeye2958 Amen!!

[@bookchapterverse6830]

@@hawkeye2958 , I think he was referencing what the cultish guys and especially Jeremiah refers to every time he claims some authoritative historicity in his argument. It's noteworthy that the cultish guy's theology and doctrine differs from that of what was practiced in the first and second century. I think that's significant. However, I agree with you: go with Scripture.

[@houstonevangelicalministries]

I’m still hung up on Hebrews 6:4-6, 10:26 and Colossians 1:22-23 on the losing salvation thing. I know y’all are big on election - either you belong to Christ or you never did. Not saying I DON’T believe in election, but I am trying to understand some things). But, how do you reconcile those verses previously mentioned? And how do you reconcile the fact that there exists the word, “apostasy,” and the warnings thereof? Thanks!

[@christrescuedme2182]

Hi, those are good questions. The CoC misinterprets verses, such as Hebrews 6:4-6, to mean that one can lose their salvation, causing people to then conclude that one can never get it back (v. 6), which is why so many CoC captives end up falling deep into despair and self-condemnation. The CoC creates a false contradiction between God’s promises and warnings. Although Scripture exhorts God’s people to hold fast to their faith, and warns them against falling away (Heb. 10:23, 26-29), it simultaneously promises that He is the only One Who can keep them from stumbling (Jer. 32:40). There is No contradiction. Because God’s promises and warnings are actually means that He uses to secure the perseverance of the saints. The fact that God often puts His warnings and promises within close proximity, proves that His sovereignty in salvation is compatible with our duty to obey (e.g. Jude 21, 24). Sadly, the CoC perpetuates an apostate fall from grace into legalism, which is a different gospel, and God has placed it, and those who promote it, under a divine curse (Gal. 1:6-9; 5:4). Colossians 2:23-24 actually presents the remedy to such apostasy. THE GOSPEL is all about what God has done in Christ to save sinners, which is spiritually grasped by God’s gift of saving faith that rests in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9).

[@tomhitchcock8195]

“Age of accountability “ is also a Southern Baptist teaching though it’s not in the BFand Message

[@christianjones4442]

1:03:55 Man this is a great explanation of the greek, I know that this is a verse heavily used by that type of theology and its a great help and truth to know in order to explain that to people under this theology ❤

[@dsvet]

Examining the Church of Christ | Answering The Error | Part 1kzbin.info/www/bejne/iWbGdKKcirZ0iJo Examining the Church of Christ: Part Two | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/lauzd2SNjZpmgsU Examining the Church of Christ: Part 3 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fWiUiYdrg6yiZ9E Examining the Church of Christ Part 4 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/q2ndlWNnnZJribs Examining the Church of Christ Part 5 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/fZ7GZGN9fb52isk Examining the Church of Christ: Part 6 | Answering The Errorkzbin.info/www/bejne/mYHOcmuYobmhmac

[@savannahsterrett7274]

You guys need to do more research on this topic. I’m afraid you came across in both podcasts as woefully myopic and under-informed about the way the church of christ varies from congregation to congregation. You talked to the same individual both times and it’s clear you were operating off of confirmation bias. These episodes seemed a bit self-serving and judgmental to me. You're smearing the character of an entire group by making assumptions and doing shallow research. I have a lot more I could say, but I’ll start with that... If you've run out of cults to cover, maybe you just need to put a pin in it and start a new project.

[@savannahsterrett7274]

One of the defining characteristics of the Church of Christ is that they have no central governing body that sets a statement of faith (like the SBC does for example) - there is no conference. The reason you will find sometimes 5 or more Churches of Christ in one town in heavily cultural areas is because they differ in core doctrinal beliefs (they are developed and settled out by each congregation - and usually only when forced). Since they have no authority above each individual congregation to settle disputes, they are prone to schisms (they will usually take their toys and go home/start another congregation rather than force an issue). This does create an accountability problem. The main ties that bind the Church of Christ as a group are cultural (a capella music, weekly communion, VBS, LTC, even the auditoriums smell the same across state lines...). The ones where people have particularly bad experiences (and they certainly do) are the usually smaller and more conservative/fundamentalist congregations. The group as a whole are largely conflict-avoidant and generally not very academically-minded (not dumb, just allergic to drama and confrontation). They therefore typically stay pretty high-level when it comes to doctrine, which is why your dogmatic assertions that they share a core set of beliefs and are just hiding it from folks is quite wrong. They literally avoid defining it as a group because they believe it causes conflict/disunity to get too specific. Also, because individual accountability between Christian and God is emphasized, you can literally have two people co-exisit in a church who have very different/conflicting beliefs. As long as they aren't "leading anyone else astray" or causing drama, people will ignore them. Again, it's that non-confrontational thing. One interesting thing to note (and this will probably surprise you - it is certainly a fair criticism) is that some Churches of Christ have become a place where progressive Christianity has taken quite a hold (the smaller congregations, especially in academic areas). I think their general distaste for defining terms of doctrine/statements of faith out of fear of conflict or "disunity" has unintentionally created a vacuum in which fundamentalism in both directions has sneakily found a comfortable home over time. In summary... it's complicated and you should cover it as such if you're going to approach this topic.

[@christrescuedme2182]

Why do CoC's all seem to have the same soteriology?

[@tomhitchcock8195]

There’s plenty to question from scripture itself. Any church should welcome it. Revelation judges the seven churches of Asia

[@chrisgrantham2178]

Been listening to you guys for many years now and I love you guys so much. I live in Sarasota Florida area and we're having an apologetics conference this weekend in the area. I just ordered your T-shirt with the Kool-Aid.... Absolutely fantastic design. You guys are obviously my kind of people lol. I also sent this video to a friend of mine who escaped from the Church of Christ and hopefully he'll send it to his friends that are still in it.

[@paulamateer6115]

What is the conference?

[@chrisgrantham2178]

@@paulamateer6115 it was an Apologetics conference.

[@babablackiesheep]

I don't know of you guys have done some research into the IFB / quiver-ful stuff...buts it's terrifying. I grew up in it with a divorced mom which brought a lot of abuse. The amount of psychological abuse my mom endured was crazy. When we were starting to want to leave, we had deacons and trustees randomly showing up at our house to try to "rebuke " our sin for wanting to leave and "redeem" my mom from heading down the road to the devil. When I was 16, I basically emancipated myself away from the IFB church and the cult behaviors. The weeks before I had made my decision I was constantly being "called into the youth pastors office" to be yelled at, attempts at manipulate snd fear mongering to keep me there. I threw scripture at them and it only made it worse. I was publicly humiliated in front of the youth group. My "friends" were told to ostracize me. Inwas told after I left, the pastor had rebuked me and said I was thrown out for sin.

[@emilyflotilla931]

What a nightmare. I'm sorry you endured that. I hope you're well. You're very articulate, so it appears you've had some good education and dedication.

[@jackieferrarimusic]

Been a COC member most of my life. It’s definitely not a cult considering that every church is it’s own authoritative teachings. By that definition you could call any denominational group a cult. What I love most about the coc is that we take communion weekly, discuss baptism, and have deacons and elders all of which are talked about in scripture, yet so many churches and denominations just don’t do or have. I definitely don’t think coc people are the only ones going to heaven. There are people in every denomination who think they’re the only ones going to heaven. I love the work that you all do since I discovered your channel recently, and I think this stuff is good to talk about but I think the way it was presented could’ve been done differently and not overly simplistic.

[@christrescuedme2182]

How can the CoC ever reconcile Genesis 4:26 with its “new terms” of salvation (baptismal regeneration)? Even in Romans 10:13, Apostle Paul quoted Joel 2:32 to reveal that God’s people have been calling upon the name of the Lord in prayer since the get-go.

[@jackieferrarimusic]

​@@christrescuedme2182 Baptism was not a requirement under the old covenant because we are baptized into Christ. Christ had not come. the Bible reveals a progressive unfolding of God's will through different covenants and commands. This doesn't conflict with acts 2:38. It’s important to recognize that, within the New Testament, calling on the name of the Lord often includes the act of baptism as part of the process of salvation. For instance, in Acts 22:16, Ananias tells Paul to "rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name." Lastly, baptism is more than just a symbol; it is a necessary step in the process of salvation, as it is the moment when a believer's sins are forgiven and they receive the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38). This doesn’t negate the importance of faith or calling on the name of the Lord, but rather integrates baptism into the full experience of coming to Christ

[@christrescuedme2182]

Is that the sound of crickets?

[@rollingwithstones]

How are you determining the difference between a denomination that desires to follow the Biblical Jesus but is a cult because of bad theology and a true Christian denomination that has some erroneous teaching? In other words, how much Bible interpretation does a person, a church or a denomination have to get right before they are considered true Christians and part of the flock?? Don't get me wrong, I was involved with the Church of Christ during my young adult life and was forced to leave because I was labeled as a black sheep for believing in eternal security - but I never questioned the authenticity of their Christian faith based on that difference in theology. My current church believes in a triune baptism, so we dunk everyone three times. Most churches don't do that, so should I label every denomination that only dunks once for bad theology?

[@TheBillyDWilliams]

Cults = all churches who aren't Reformed apparently.

[@christrescuedme2182]

Simply put, true Christianity is the ONLY religion in the world that teaches salvation by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ ALONE. All other religions teach a salvation by man's works.

[@rollingwithstones]

@@christrescuedme2182 I totally agree with that but it doesn't answer my question. This panel claims that the Church of Christ is a cult with very few true Christians within their members because they believe in baptism for salvation, that salvation can be lost, don't believe in original sin and using electric guitars in worship. As you said, we are saved in Christ alone - so how much of the theology about Christianity does someone to have to get right to differentiate between a cult follower and a Christian with a poor Biblical understanding?? As I said before, I spent a few years in the Church of Christ and I left because of my contrasting belief in eternal security. There are many people who believe you can lose your salvation, but does that mean they're not Christians?

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@rollingwithstones Oh, I get it. No, just because someone doesn't have complete assurance of salvation doesn't mean they are not really saved. They may be saved and not really be sure because they've not come to a fuller understanding of what Christ actually accomplished on the cross. I believe there are some CoC's who are truly God's sheep who've been taken captive by wolves. The grace of God may enable a CoC member to live above their theology and see beyond the baptismal regeneration formula enough to grasp the gospel and be saved, (that may have also been the case with some of the "early church fathers"), but it cannot be said that the CoC teaches the way of salvation or that one should stay in a false religion once they’ve been saved. God convicts His people of such and separates them from those who promote it (2 Cor. 6:17). Jesus always rescues His sheep and leads them on their way out of such darkness. Even though there will probably always still be the remains of CoC indoctrination to struggle against. It has taken me literally years just to come this far out of such darkness, but only because Jesus is faithful to never leave His sheep. I’m living proof that He continues to rescue His sheep from all the messes they get themselves into, or are born into. As far as there being a minimal set of doctrines one must know in order to be saved, that's really worth pondering. A sinner may be initially saved simply by knowing in their heart that they are a terrible sinner and that Jesus is a great Savior. They may not know all the in's and out's of all the implications involved. But that's why God sends out His ambassadors, right? What a huge responsibility we have to try to help these poor sheep to come all the way into the embrace of Christ, and out of the hands of wicked and ravenous wolves! By God's grace, through MUCH prayer, I always try to adjust my approach with cultists by "testing the spirits" and discerning between those who are sincerely untaught and those who just outright reject the light that they have.

[@kingorangejulius1517]

I just got done talking to my grandparents (they are church of Christ) for 3 hours trying to explain to them how it’s faith alone. I showed them tons of scripture they even admitted I know more about the Bible than them… but they said they will never change their mind about how salvation is about obedience and not faith alone. I would answer their questions with scripture and they would throw their hands up and roll their eyes and it just baffles me. They claim only bible but when you show them the scripture it just isn’t good enough. They said to me after it was all said and done “you would’ve been an amazing Christian if you went to the true church”…. It’s so sad. Please pray for them.

[@nickrussell8029]

You still didn’t understand my comment about choosing sin over God. If you know the truth and chose a life of sin over God you have put sin in Gods place, and created an idol. You serve worldly desires and not God. You have replaced God and chose a worldly path. That is simply not Christian living. This is not to be confused with human sin nature we will all sin no matter how hard we may try. I’m sure you have heard the criticism of “license to sin” your defense of your view point is where that come from. If all it takes is faith and you cannot lose salvation after then there is nothing to stop a person from living a worldly existence and still claiming to serve God.

[@christrescuedme2182]

Can you demonstrate an ability to reconcile the CoC's "new terms of salvation" with Hebrews 4:2, which reveals that the gospel in the Old Testament is the SAME GOSPEL of the New Testament?

[@christrescuedme2182]

Is that a no?

[@nickrussell8029]

@@christrescuedme2182 Sorry I didn’t get a notice for the first comment. I guess you will have to define what you are referring to as the “new terms of salvation”. Are you referring to living under the old law vs living under Jesus?

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@nickrussell8029 No. According to the CoC's official literature, its "new terms of salvation" involves its baptismal regeneration formula, followed by its "second laws of pardon" doctrine.

[@nickrussell8029]

@@christrescuedme2182 I think it’s simple to explain. the Bible lays it out simple and clear. Through out multiple verses the Bible ties belief, repentance, confession and baptism as part of salvation. To discount one is to cut out or explain away verses as not true or necessary. That to me is the creation of a separate faith practice. Why would you choose one but discount the other, why is one more import then another. How can one say you are following the teachings of the Bible when you intentionally ignore or explain away parts that don’t aline with the denominational doctrine you subscribe to. Faith is not a one and done but a life long active endeavor. The old law required obedience just as the New Testament lays out. Sadly the modern Christian faith makes the claim faith is just a state of mind and that’s all that’s needed for salvation, but ignores obedience to anything beyond professing faith, ignores perseverance, ignores the need to turn from your old ways (repentance). I have had many discussions with the faith alone doctrine pastors and when pressed on it even they will say that saving faith requires obedience and that one can’t use the “license to sin” approach to faith. I ask you, if these things were not necessary why did the New Testament writers include them with faith? If it were not necessary why even include it at all. Is it just busy work? I think you may find a study of the practice of mikvah interesting and a parallel to baptism. It’s also a ritual washing and a way of purifying yourself. Ritual washing was done before entering the temple as a way of presenting yourself pure, as well as many other reasons lined out in the old law that would make a person unclean. I personally believe that, like mikvah, baptism is a way to present ourself pure before God. Take for example that brides would go to mikvah before their wedding as a way of presenting themself ritually pure to their husband. We are the of Christ. Many parts of the Bible are lost on modern Christian’s because we don’t understand many references or illusions used to cultural practices or locations and their cultural significance and symbolism. Add on top of that English reading Christian’s read a interpretation of the original text that isn’t always easy to convey the before mentioned cultural and symbolic references that were relevant to early readers. Simply consider the dozens of different Bible translations and styles that try to convey the message in various ways. Modern resources and notes are available but many don’t actually dig in for themselves to understand anything more then the surface level understanding.

[@oldtimey7599]

The original "5 finger exercise" formulated by Walter Scott of the American Restoration Movement wasn't 1. Hear, 2. Believe, 3. Confess, 4. Baptism, 5. Stay Faithful. It was 1. Faith, 2. Repentance, 3. Baptism, 4. Forgiveness of Sins, 5. Receive the Holy Spirit. It's straight from Acts 2:37-38. The Christian Church of the American Restoration Movement still believes in the original formula as described in the bible. The Church of Christ changed the 5 finger exercise because to 1. Hear, 2. Believe, 3. Confess, 4. Baptism, 5. Stay Faithful. They also believe that 1st Corinthians 13:8-10 means that the Holy Spirit went away when the New Testament was canonized. They developed that doctrine because they couldn't debate against the Pentecostals about Spiritual Gifts. They also tend to replace the Spirit with the New Testament. The Bible might be the word of God, but Jesus is the Word of God. Worship God, not the bible.

[@judithzoe204]

My family members always say they would be “terrified to assume they’re saved.” It’s very sad. They are unable to live in the joy of the gospel because it is gate kept from them. It’s extremely legalistic and almost parallels the attitude in Islam.

[@judithzoe204]

@@hawkeye2958 that’s weird you say that because I was talking about this with my mom and I literally asked her, then why do we sing about having blessed assurance? She was stumped by that and did concede that she didn’t know and wanted to think about it.

[@Fire_soul1796]

Where is that link for the history of the church of Christ and the ICOC?

[@christrescuedme2182]

"Campbellism: It's history and heresies...by Bob L. Ross is a good source too.

[@kellydoughty9081]

It may well be that the CoC are cultish, but so is Calvinism. There are many bible verses about keeping yourself, as well as God who keeps you. We must not ignore the verses about perseverance, enduring to the end. All I could think while listening was there is a beam in these brothers eyes. May God help us see the whole word of God without traditions of men and their doctrines. Amen.

[@christrescuedme2182]

True Christianity is the only religion in the world that believes in salvation by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Exactly how is that cultic?

[@jeremiahr615]

“Enduring to the end” refers to staying in faith, as the end result of faith is the salvation of our souls. There are several verses that clarify this. Peter states this and Paul does as well.

[@lotusjumpingspider8761]

@@christrescuedme2182 the only part of the Bible that mentions faith alone is in James where it says NOT. What is your answer to that? This is not a hostile question btw

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@lotusjumpingspider8761 Good question, because there are many who theorize that if a person cannot find the exact phrase “faith alone” for salvation in the Bible, then that must mean we are saved by faith PLUS our own works. But they don’t seem to realize how self-refuting that argument is. So let's apply that line of reasoning elsewhere and see how it turns out. For example, just because one cannot find the exact phrase "Christ alone" in Scripture, would it be reasonable to conclude that we should worship Christ PLUS other gods?

[@HOSPlTALLER]

@@christrescuedme2182 Faith is never alone, it is always accompanied by works of the Spirit, i.e. cooperating with the will of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 25: 31-46 Jesus expects you to live a life of service. "He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me." (note the word: "do")

[@harveyambrose1166]

Grew up in COC in the 1950s. I was never taught that I was born perfect, but I was taught that the doctrine of original sin was false. So, when COC members say they were never told they were perfect, they think they’re being truthful, being unable to see the contradiction.

[@bornagainbasics]

Y'all should do one on Baptist/Calvinist theology!

[@mccaski2]

Did you guys just compare Leighton Flowers to cultists, or are we talking a different Leighton? Hope so.

[@bookchapterverse6830]

I was wondering the same thing. It's hard to tell when their video is little more than yes men nodding at each other as they take on the difficult theology of internet comments.

[@tdfish311]

@@bookchapterverse6830 different Leighton.

[@kimberlylepore1889]

Because of the privilege and authority God has given me, I give each of you this warning: Don’t think you are better than you really are. Be honest in your evaluation of yourselves, measuring yourselves by the faith God has given us. Romans 12:3 NLT I thought it was really interesting that I would just happen to read this after listening to this episode. Thanks for taking the time to help others.

[@ThePronouncer]

“Revisiting” is spelled wrong 😬 I’m a former CoC minister turned A29 pastor. Been a long journey. Appreciate all the work you guys do.

[@bama101010]

What Was the Purpose of Water Baptism? Foe the Jews and their “gospel of the kingdom,” water baptism was a required expression of believing faith. We see in Luke 7:28-30 those that were baptized with the baptism of John, justified God, and those that chose not to be baptized, rejected the counsel of God. Luke 7:28-30 28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. 29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. John’s baptism was a symbolic baptism. God tells us in Hebrews 9:22 that there is no “remission of sins” without the shedding of blood. At this time, Christ’s blood had not yet been shed. Jesus spoke in Matthew 26:28 about His blood being the blood of the New Testament which is shed for “many” for the “remission of sins.” Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. We see in Acts 2:38 that on Pentecost, Peter preaches repentance and baptism for the “remission of sins.” Christ’s blood had been shed, so “remission of sins” was available for those who by faith obeyed and were baptized. Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. We see in Mark 16:16 where Jesus speaks of believing faith accompanied by obedience. Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. In I Samuel 15:22 we are told “behold to obey is better than sacrifice.” Christ is the Lamb of God. He willingly sacrificed Himself upon the cross. Those under the “gospel of the kingdom” who believed in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, possessed obedient faith and were baptized.

[@nfcboys1984]

What’s A29 brother? My father in law is a current COC preacher. 40 years. His children (including my wife are a mess), his wife died young do to the stress of being a COC preachers wife (it was brutal), and he things I’m going straight to hell and we’re in a “unbiblical” marriage. It just horrible. Glad you found your way out.

[@davidthomas283]

Here's a question, how does the COC view disabled people who can not speak?

[@ablank6888]

This entire video is discredited when you openingly admit CoC are autonomous with varied practices. Further, did the short beard guy with hat honestly criticize how others openly worship? Wow! You should just discuss beliefs with other members and pastors rather than a group panel criticizing and lumping millions of fellow believers together.

[@christrescuedme2182]

Really? Okay, so can you explain what gospel the thief on the cross obeyed according to Hebrews 4:2?

[@nparksntx]

Our homeschool co-op meets at a COC. From what I’ve gleaned about the individual church is that it’s not as strict as it used to be. We visited one service. I’m friends with several families at this one church so that’s been my only experience. Before I joined the co-op I was initial concerned but couldn’t find anything heretical with that particular church. Seemed like the main issue I had was the belief that you can lose your salvation.

[@AbundantlyBlessedMama]

Paris? We have been to that church and loved it.

[@MediocreComedian]

Yes, Church of Christ does teach all of those things. Our parents took us to church three times a week until I was seventeen. I left because I felt like I would never be good enough to go to heaven. I never felt I was in a cult, but I may be confused about your definition cult compared to how I think of a cult.

[@LtDeadeye]

I don’t think the Church is a cult. Here’s a theological definition: Heretical sect: A religious group that denies one or more of the fundamentals of biblical truth. A cult is a group that teaches doctrine that, if believed, will cause a person to remain unsaved. A cult claims to be part of a religion yet it denies central truths of that religion. Here’s an atheists opinion: Labeling a group a cult is a cowardly way of tolerating, condoning, appeasing or promoting favored (popular) religions while simultaneously disparaging minority religions. Who gets slapped with the cult smear depends on the length of membership rolls and political, economic, social influence count. - Guy Harrison, atheist. Here are some common agreed upon qualities of a cult: A religious group far outside the mainstream that have overly controlling leadership or dangerous practices. Pull people away from their families Practice Emotional manipulation Damage personalities Provide opposite of spiritual fulfillment Physically abuse its members Brainwashing Shunning those who leave Powerful leadership with no accountability for whom the group has excessively zealous and unquestioned commitment. Preoccupation with bringing in new members Preoccupation with making money Questioning, doubt or dissent are discouraged or even punished. Leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act and feel (permission from leaders to date, change jobs, get married, prescriptions of what clothes to wear, where to live, how to discipline children, etc.) Elitist, claiming a special exalted status for itself, it’s leadership and members. (Example…leader is considered the messiah or an avatar, the group has a special mission to save humanity). Has a polarized ‘us vs them’ mentality which creates conflict with the wider society. Ends justify the means mentality (for example: collecting money for bogus charities). Leader induces a feeling of guilt in members to control them. Members subservience to the group causes cutting ties with family, friends, and personal group goals and activities that were of interest before joining the group. Expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group. Encouraged to live and socialize only with other members of the group. Mind numbing techniques such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation session, debilitating work routines are used to suppress doubts about the group and its leader. A group that is unfamiliar, disliked or feared isn’t a cult. The Church of Christ isn’t a cult.

[@melissayoung9592]

My friend say faith is a work he is in the Church of Christ. We are dating and I am going to a Baptist church. He wants me to go to the Church of Christ I do not feel comfortable with this because he is pushing baptism really hard. Can you give me scripture to help me talk to him..

[@christrescuedme2182]

To obey the gospel is to believe the gospel (Rom. 10:16), which is all about what God has done in Christ to save sinners. The true gospel can only be laid hold of by God’s gift of saving faith that rests in Christ alone (Eph. 2:8-9), which disproves the CoC’s water gospel interpretation of its isolated proof-texts (Mt. 28:19, Mk. 16:16, Jn. 3:5, Acts 2:38; 22:16, Rom. 6:3-4, Gal. 3:27, Col. 2:12, Titus 3:5, 1 Pet. 3:21).

[@real.revJosva]

Church of Christ? Isn't that what the Duck Dynasty family belong to?

[@MiltonTheWise]

You are correct!

[@christrescuedme2182]

Yes, the CoC’s very own Duck Dynasty reps have been on the forefront of this cult for years. Its “duck, duck, goose” gurus continue to give spiritual advice on ecumenical and political platforms, while simultaneously preaching in CoC churches and universities across the nation, which has proved that there’s no “decoy” too outlandish to further its “quack-ology!”

[@heatherwilder8649]

Love y’all thank you so much for the content!

[@LtDeadeye]

Challenge Aaron Gallagher of Gospel Broadcasting Network (GBN). He’s very kind, intelligent and has a firm grasp of doctrine. I’m almost sure he’d be happy to host a debate.

[@GBNTV]

Hey TJ! Have you seen this debate between Trey and Aaron? It came about from the first episode of Cultish. Their second debate is premiering today at 3PM. Both of these can be found on GBN's KZbin page. Here is a link to the 1st. kzbin.info/www/bejne/m57be5qpr9Rkgs0

[@LtDeadeye]

@@GBNTV Thanks for the reply! I’ve seen it and Aaron did great.

[@tdfish311]

@@LtDeadeye you can watch me and Aaron Gallagher discuss all of these topics on his channel or The Parish Reformed KZbin channel. We have had 2 discussions so far and plan to discuss all the topics. And, I also think Aaron is a good dude.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@tdfish311 Trey, when is your next debate with Aaron?

[@tdfish311]

@@christrescuedme2182 it is suppose to be this coming Friday. Fingers crossed!

[@taragriffith25]

There’s so many ads in this episode 😔

[@Littlemac19]

So I will say this when I have watched cultish in the past I have appreciated the love and care that you have for other people. I really don't like that this gentleman is calling out people in a unkind manner and an incredibly defensive way. Whether you disagree or not you always be kind and loving and that was not... Just because Kip McKean came from the Church of Christ does NOT make them the same. My parents were in the ICOC and they had mentors that blackmailed them from leaving by having them tell their sins. My mother was pregnant with me and was incredibly sick and their mentors would make her come and lay in a room and puking for numbers. They were told that Kip McKean was the ONLY person to listen to in regards to preaching the bible. That is ABSOLUTELY not the same as the Church of Christ. I'm sorry. Not saying that the Church of Christ is a good church to go to because we have been in both for a long time. But I just will not agree that they are the same. I will also say that when I left the Church of Christ that I was in for 12 years. That was my family when I didn't have anyone did talk to my family again besides 2 families. It really broke my heart and made me really think what I was actually in. Its really unfortunate.

[@xray342radio]

I’m glad you left both! I was in the ICOC for 8 years and believe someone leaving must eventually deal with and overturn the mainline Church of Christ doctrine that were imported into the ICOC. Or in other words, the ICOC is the Church of Christ on steroids.

[@RufijiTZ01]

As I listened I could not believe how unloving and just cruel these guys were. Needless to say, I won't be listening to these guys again and I'll warn others away too. Mike Winger does a far better job.

[@Littlemac19]

@@RufijiTZ01 I am so glad that others saw the same thing as I did. I just sat there with my jaw dropped. I could not believe the behavior I was watching. I get the apologetic aspect of the church but I am pretty this is not the way you should do this. Incredibly unloving.

[@Sasha12345-v]

Never heard of this one 🙈 I have to watch the first video

[@christrescuedme2182]

Thanks again! That's yet another good point I need to remember when dealing with my CoC people....that they actually believe in baptismal justification. That is so sadly true.

[@pedromatos2631]

Doesn’t the Bible say that your sins are remitted at baptism?

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@pedromatos2631 There is most certainly a place for man’s appropriation when it comes to discipleship and sanctification, but NOT when it comes to justification. Although CoC operatives will often admit that Jesus' blood was literally "for" the remission of sins, they will then turn right around and say water baptism is literally “for” the remission of sins! But they cannot have their cake and eat it too. Forgiveness of sins comes directly from Jesus, His blood and His righteousness, applied solely by the Holy Spirit, in His timing, NOT through a performance-based system that is set up by man to restrict and replace direct access to Jesus which is only through the Holy Spirit's fruit of saving faith (Rom. 5:2; 8:35-39, Gal. 5:22, Eph. 2:18; 3:12). When Jesus said the wine was His blood for the remission of sins (Mt. 26:28), do CoC’s truly believe Jesus meant that consumption of the wine was for the literal remission of sins? Now, since both ordinances (the Lord's Supper and baptism) have the same overall purpose, one ordinance cannot actually effect regeneration and the other one not. Either they both actually regenerate a person, or they both only symbolize and demonstrate what actually remits one's sins. So which is it?

[@rq5659]

@@pedromatos2631 Doesn’t the Bible say that your sins are remitted at belief / faith. Acts 10:43 / Rom 3:25.

[@bookchapterverse6830]

@@rq5659 , absolutely says that, yes! And to what were they believing in Acts 10 43? The things that Jesus "ordered them to preach in Acts 10 42. What were those things? That's Acts 2 which includes verse 38, where sins are remitted. They could have no belief without that preaching; that belief includes baptism. All of these are inextricably intertwined. You cannot throw out baptism without using the same criteria to throw out faith, belief, or anything else. That's a wrong division of Scripture.

[@rq5659]

@@bookchapterverse6830 I haven’t “thrown out baptism”. Do you interpret acts 2:38 to believe that a person’s sins are not forgiven until they have been baptized in water?

[@Hyorikatsu]

This is what the church of Christ teaches about biblical conversion. Conversion: God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. To believe in Jesus means we trust and follow him as both Savior and Lord. When we commit to trust and follow Jesus, we express this faith by repenting from sin, confessing his name, and receiving baptism by immersion in water for the remission of sins. We uphold baptism as the normative means of entry into the life of discipleship. It marks our commitment to regularly die to ourselves and rise to live for Christ in the power of the Holy Spirit. We believe God sovereignly saves as he sees fit, but we are bound by Scripture to uphold this teaching about surrendering to Jesus in faith through repentance, confession, and baptism.

[@christrescuedme2182]

Actually, true faith is confidence in God’s divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake. True salvation is in the object of our faith (Jesus), not in faith itself. Though the CoC teaches the necessity of faith, anything less than the exclusivity of faith in Christ alone, Not in our works…is a false faith. Rob Zins said it well when he stated: “The failure to proclaim justification by faith alone is not simply a sin. It is out and out displacement of the Gospel of Christ with another gospel. Anyone who does this is anti-Christian and is not to be considered a brother or sister in Christ. Anyone who does this boldly and as a matter of doctrinal formulation is guilty, not of sin only, but in worshipping a false god and promulgating a pagan religion.”₈ Apostle Paul stressed so strongly that our justification begins with faith and ends with faith, that he used the double force of double prepositions…”from faith to faith” (Rom. 1:17, 3:22). For a faith generated by God is maintained by God. But the content of the CoC’s version of faith constitutes works (things that are seen), whereas the substance that makes up a Christians faith is Christ Himself…. the evidence of what is not seen (Rom. 8:24-25, Heb. 11:1).

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@shellbell2167 Romans 6 clearly speaks of baptism being a “likeness,” a reflection, a demonstration, of our eternal union with Christ through His substitutionary atonement (Mt. 20:28). Which is applied to our account by the Holy Spirit, through faith in Jesus’ blood (Rom. 3:25). Because God has ordained that Jesus’ imputed righteousness can only be apprehended by His free grace gift of faith. Not by the meritorious works of man (Rom. 4:24). Born-again believers are considered by God to be one in Christ, even in Jesus’ baptism of death (Mt. 20:21-23, Lk. 12:50, Mk. 10:38-39, Rom. 6:3-18, 2 Cor. 5:14, 15, 1 Pet. 3:21). God sees Jesus’ death as their death; He sees Jesus’ resurrection as their resurrection; He sees Jesus’ righteousness as their righteousness. This is why Romans 6 is all about a believer’s eternal union with Christ. And yet, the CoC system has always falsely claimed that Romans 6 is all about baptismal justification! Because, its false philosophical concept of salvation-by-man’s-appropriation is founded upon faulty Pelagian views of the Fall, that happen to be the very root of all the CoC’s heresies.

[@fireboycli]

In the Church of Christ I learned that 1. You can not be saved by works only grace, 2. We are all fallen, 3. And that a personal relationship with Jesus is the most important thing you can have. With each church being independent i can see how some doctrine might be different in some churches.

[@christrescuedme2182]

All CoC's use Bible terminology but will then re-define what those terms mean.

[@christrescuedme2182]

How do people get into a personal relationship with Jesus?

[@lotusjumpingspider8761]

Do you not believe in baptismal regeneration?

[@HOSPlTALLER]

@@lotusjumpingspider8761 I believe it along with all the ancient Churches (Coptic, Assyrian, Armenian, Orthodox, Catholic, etc.)

[@taylormyer8887]

Where does the Bible say that baptism is a public expression of an inward change?

[@christrescuedme2182]

Our heart is the seat of our conscience, and it’s at enmity with God and desperately wicked until made anew by God (Jer. 17:9, Rom. 8:7, Heb. 8:10). Baptism is the outward response of a conscience that has been purified by faith in Christ (Acts 15:9), and what He has accomplished in the believer who identifies with Him in baptism. According to Scripture, all who savingly believe in Christ have already been baptized by the Holy Spirit into His death spiritually (1 Cor. 12:13). A symbol cannot literally purge a guilty conscience. It can only be an outward sign of what’s already occurred inwardly. There is no such thing as baptismal regeneration. Baptism, in no way, shape or form, effects what it signifies. Yet the CoC falsely claims that it does.

[@bookchapterverse6830]

The Bible never says that and it is therefore unbiblical. Search for what the Scriptures say about baptism. The Bible won't mislead you like the folks here are trying to do.

[@taylormyer8887]

The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Cor. 15. How do we then obey the gospel? Baptism is a reenactment of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord and savior, Romans 6:4. Baptism is what puts us into Christ, Galatians 3:27. Baptism is for the remission of sins, acts 2:38, acts 22:16. All of these verses harmonize perfectly together. To believe “faith alone” is to deny many scriptures, and the only place faith alone is is used is in James 2:24 which states that faith alone does not save. Do not confuse works in this passage with physical works. Look at context and the message being taught here. You must ask yourself if one can be saved without being put into Christ, because the verses clearly state that baptism is the point at which we are put into Christ. Please seriously consider taking a deep dive with all the verses listed, with how the Bible harmonizes and does not contradict. Look at what the Bible says when stating people are saved by faith. Challenge what you believe. Here are 3 links to a continuous debate by a CoC member and a reformed Baptist about baptism and other topics. I’d love to continue this conversation with you more! m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/m57be5qpr9Rkgs0 m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGPFe3iij9x-rpI m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXSukqCgl7B5ppI

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@bookchapterverse6830 Where does the Bible say there is more than one gospel? Yet, the CoC teaches that there is, for it flat-out denies what Hebrews 4:2 clearly reveals. No wonder you are still unable to reconcile the CoC's disproven hyper-dispensational theories (concerning the thief on the cross and how he was REALLY saved), with Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages (e.g., Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:29-30; 10:16 and Galatians 3:6-8).

[@bookchapterverse6830]

@@christrescuedme2182 , no, silly, they don't teach more than one gospel. There is but one gospel. 🤣🤣🤣

[@lewisbeeman]

Listening to these guys is like listening to the young Turks

[@classyrubiesthrty1278]

Thank you ❤

[@dylan3456]

Instead of talking about them why don’t you talk to them?

[@christrescuedme2182]

Have you not seen the debates going on?

[@DRMLiveJazz]

Trey Fisher did and is having hours of conversations with a minister on GBN. Trey is getting blistered and exposed while painting himself into corners. It's painful to watch when he's not surrounded by yes men.

[@garettscott7085]

I graduated from Harding University (COC school) and grew up Church of Christ. Nearly every one of these doctrinal differences are brushed over as preferences. My family and I have gone to baptist, non-denominational, and COC interchangeably. I know it’s important to have the right ideas and doctrine guiding you, just giving some perspective on how the vast majority of people in the pews view the doctrine. Typically (as with many people) people who go to these churches are there because family and friends are there and most COC’s don’t fixate on the conflicting doctrine. (Not saying it’s right just an observation)

[@bradleymarshall5489]

I also attended Harding and even preached at COCs, I think the problem I have with this video and similar ones is there really is no categorizing all of COC since each church does its own thing. I don't doubt that there are still many COC who fit what they describe but to put all of COC under the broad umbrella of "cult" in the same category as Mormonism like they are doing is extremely dishonest when many COC are Bible believing Christians who affirm salvation by faith alone.

[@bryanhodge3978]

It seems to me that you need to me that you need to clearly define what is meant by cult and also what is meant by denomination. People use these terms in different ways. All good debaters define their terms.

[@geraldharvey8979]

Did you take down my first post?

[@fulfilleddynamics]

Children are born “innocent” NOT “perfect”. Since it is not possible for an infant to believe or repent should an infant die, he is considered innocent. Likewise, is the case with someone born mentally challenged and unable to respond to the gospel of Christ. God is righteous and does not hold infants accountable (as in total depravity teaches).

[@christrescuedme2182]

Although they are innocent of volitional sin (Jer. 2:34), they have inherent sin, or else no babies would ever die. “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord (Rom. 6:23). But if the CoC is right, and babies are born without sin, then that would mean Heaven is full of those whom Jesus never died for....because He only died for sinners! So the implications of CoC theology is that Heaven is full of humans who have never been saved from sin, redeemed by Christ or sanctified by the Holy Spirit! (Also see: Mt. 21:16). Once again, the CoC is trapped in a hopeless contradiction. This is how ridiculous the CoC system gets when it fights tooth and nail for the “neutral,” not so fallen, “freewill” of man. But thankfully, no one, including infants, can get to Heaven apart from Jesus’ blood. He died to save His people from sin, which would surely include babies. Thank God they qualify for the Savior! Thank God they qualify for Heaven! Despite the CoC’s heretical doctrines that imply babies are disqualified.

[@bookchapterverse6830]

You are correct. They are born innocent, not perfect.

[@christian.comedy.channel.2]

Please may I point out that I live in Plymouth in the UK and I evangelise British cults including the Kip Mckean groups the ICC (International Christian Church) and ICoC (International Church of Christ) - ususally over the telephone. I now have about 40 discussions with British ICC and ICoC leaders, including four discussions with Michael Williamson the UK leader of the ICC, uploaded to KZbin. In my second discussion with the highly aggressive williamson he threatens to report me to the Police. YOu can find these videos in my Kip McKean-ICC-ICoC playlist.

[@UnclePengy]

To be very clear, the Church of Christ you are discussing is a branch of what was called the "Stone/Campbell movement" or "Restoration movement." The branches are NOT monolithic in their beliefs. The Church of Christ (Acapella) that you are discussing is the more ultra-conservative (for lack of a better word) branch, that does tend to be more legalistic and have some of the doctrines you discuss (And I understand there was an offshoot of this branch, the International or Boston Church of Christ, that went even farther with it.) The Christian Churches/Churches of Christ branch, the branch I grew up in, is a conservative branch that is really very little different from, say, Baptists in their beliefs and practices, though they remain independent and do differ from church to church, but not that much (I've been members of churches in Washington, California and Arizona and the practices and beliefs are essentially the same). And I have to say that a lot of the things you talk about going on in the Church of Christ are completely alien to me. Be aware that many of these churches call themselves Church of Christ, but do not believe the things you are discussing. The third branch is the Disciples of Christ, which tends to be a more liberal branch, and I'm not familiar with them so I won't speak to what I don't know. Quite frankly I'm also not familiar that well with the CoC branch you are discussing either, so I won't speak to them either. (They sound a bit scary to me, quite frankly.) From how I've read the history, the "Restoration" that the Campbells wanted to procure was Sola Scriptura, not the "we're the only ones with the truth" brand of restoration that groups like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses preached. They basically thought that the "reformation" didn't go far enough and wanted to go to the New Testament only for their faith and practice. For which "New Testament church" is another word we've used in the past. As far as what the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ branch (the one I'm most familiar with) believes, we absolutely believe in salvation by grace through faith, not by works. We believe that works follow faith. Works (including baptism) are an evidence of rebirth, not a legal requirement to obtain rebirth, and they have no saving efficacy whatsoever, but flow out from a reborn heart out of love for God. We also don't teach anything even remotely like innate human goodness, in fact quite the opposite. Although I have heard the "age of accountability" discussed and believe God to be just (which I recently heard pastor Mike Winger also state). And our beliefs on baptism are essentially the same (although I know some who would argue that point, to be honest). We consider other Christian churches of other denominations to also be Christians, and I've never, EVER heard of anyone being shunned. I've been in counter-cult ministries since childhood, and like I said, these things are completely alien to me in the 60 years I've been associated with the Christian Churches/Churches of Christ branch, and I share your concern about their teachings, which are clearly divergent from orthodoxy. I actually got into counter-cult ministry because of the awareness of how the Restoration movement was tangentially related to the Mormon church back in the beginning of both movements: as a kid, I grew up as a Christian in a Mormon household (next door to a Jehovah's witness! Long story!). I'll tell you what: I recently hooked up with a local church and have been considering starting a KZbin channel of my own, partly focusing on autistic issues in the church but also on the cults and Christian education. Some of my heroes online are Greg Koukl, Tim Barnett (Mr. B), Melissa Dougherty, Mike Winger and Dr. Frank Turek, and I wanted in my own small way to follow in their rather large footsteps. I want to be very open and accountable with the channel I'm considering starting, which is why I made sure I was going to be accountable to a church home first, but I would also welcome your input on anything I put up, and I will send you a link when I get it going so you can feel free to rake me over the coals.

[@UnclePengy]

Oh, and you guys at Cultish/Apologia feel free to ask me any questions you might have of me, if you want to feel the need to feel me out/vet me.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@UnclePengy You may want to first watch Dr. James White's evaluation concerning Dr. Frank Turek before "following in his footsteps," as you say. Mike Winger is a nice guy, but he is still not sound in his doctrine either. Melissa seems more open to being taught the truth though. Anyway, I wanted to ask why you said that you grew up in a Christian church branch of Churches of Christ, but then later you said that you grew up in a Mormon household.

[@UnclePengy]

@@christrescuedme2182 Well, I did say that was going to be a long story. My mom and dad were both Christians; my mom's faith was amazing. But she passed away when I was 13 from cervical cancer after a horrific battle (where her calm grace was an inspiration to many), and my dad I would say wasn't quite as strong, and was lonely. And so as things would have it he married the Mormon lady down the street and move my brother and I into this Mormon home. For a young teenager this was a trial by fire, and my "adapt or die" instinct kicked in. Being autistic and book learning being my special interest, I immediately started getting ahold of every book I could find on the subject of cults, and spent hours in prayerful study, and I ended up taking about a year of Bible study at what was then Pacific Christian college, which is now called Hope international University I believe, in Fullerton California. (I had to drop out due to an injury which left me in a wheelchair for several months, and my life took a different path from there, which is neither here nor there.)

[@UnclePengy]

@@christrescuedme2182 As far as Turek goes, I just marvel at people like him being able to "give an answer" on their feet so quickly. This is an amazing skill that I simply was not blessed with; my tongue is slow like Moses', and while I may have the knowledge to answer someone, the right words are not always readily available. My brain just doesn't work that way. Frustratingly, the other side of the autism coin. "Blessed with suck", someone once said. But a blessing nonetheless, so I'll take what I get and be thankful, and make it work. :)

[@UnclePengy]

@@christrescuedme2182 Oh, and one more thing: Manners! Thank you for responding to me. (I always forget "the pleasantries." At 62 years of age, I'm still learning to be human!)

[@yucciraveneye8266]

Shalom Beloved Family MLMR

[@Mrssmith2011]

I was also told that we aren’t a denomination because we have no central authority - each church governs it’s self. And to (at least my father) a denomination was a group that had a hierarchy that dictated creeds to its affiliate churches.

[@christylighthouse]

Sounds like my dad and your dad were very similar! I too grew up in the CoC and my father was an elder in the church for years. He always said we weren't a denomination because they didn't want some office dictating what to do or not to do in the church. It always confused me as a teen/young adult when there were so many churches that were similar (other CoC churches).

[@chuckbrown2318]

I was told that as well but when preachers call out other preachers for “error” and even produce listings of “sound congregations” to attend, it seemed each church was scared to step out of line of the whole COC doctrine.

[@swordmasterpublications]

As a member of the church of Christ and an apologist, I may have to do a video response to this down the road. For now, I will comment in-line with time stamps as I have time. Just found this video so I'm a few months behind here. :)

[@christrescuedme2182]

As a CoC member, can you explain what gospel the thief on the cross obeyed according to Hebrews 4:2?

[@swordmasterpublications]

@@christrescuedme2182 I answered this on one of my own videos, but I can copy and past that here. There is only one "good news" that of the Messiah/Christ that would save the world from their sins. The thief on the cross heard that gospel preached in prophetic form via the law of Moses. It pointed forward to the Christ, the cross, and the church, which is the body of the saved. However, the thief could not obey that gospel nor was he amenable to it since Christ had not yet died. To obey the gospel is to submit to immersion into water into the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (1 Cor 15:1-4; Romans 6:3-18). That was not available yet and neither was the body of the saved, which was founded the following Sunday. The thief is a unique situation. He lived under the law of Moses. He's hanging there next to the Messiah and while at first he speaks poorly to Jesus, he later repents and makes the only appeal he can. Jesus, who had the power to forgive sins while on the Earth (Matt 9:6) declares him forgiven before He dies and the NT goes into effect. The thief is not a valid or useful example of salvation under the New Testament.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@swordmasterpublications So how can you reconcile that with Hebrews 4:2 and its parallel passages that reveal the opposite of what you stated ((e.g., Isa.53:1, Jn. 12:38, Rom. 3:29-30; 10:16 and Gal. 3:6-8)?

[@swordmasterpublications]

@@christrescuedme2182 You're going to have to explain how you think those verses mean the opposite of what I stated. I have no idea what you mean.

[@christrescuedme2182]

@@swordmasterpublications All of those verses reveal what the true gospel really is, and how it is to be obeyed. According to Isaiah, John and Paul, the “report” of Isaiah 53 was nothing less than the pure and unadulterated gospel of Jesus Christ, with nothing added to it. Notice that Isaiah, John and Paul never equated water baptism with obeying the gospel (Rom. 10:16), because the gospel of Jesus Christ does NOT include man’s own contributions. The sum and substance of the entire gospel is simply Christ and Him crucified (1 Cor. 2:2), nothing more, nothing less. These truths not only confirm the fact that the true gospel was preached long before Pentecost, but they also further disprove the CoC’s theory of water baptism being a part of the gospel message.