44 Siblings, 4 Mothers: Deconstructing the FLDS Polygamy Cult ft.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

We haven’t filmed part 2 yet! So drop your questions for Calvin here to potentially be answered on the next episode! 🙌

[@sngray11]

What was the most difficult part in transitioning to life outside of the FLDS? And also, after realizing that everything that you were taught growing up wasn’t true, how did you find a way to form your own ideas and be able to trust other people again?

[@dorizzp]

I was wondering, children born are roughly 50-50% male and female, so if a man gets multiple wives in a community, and a woman can only have 1 husband, what happens to all the other males that are in “surplus”? Doing the math, there has to be quite a few men who’d remain single, and in a community where your salvation depends on you having not just one but multiple wives and as many children as possible, those men would be doomed I guess? How do they react to this situation? What do the women think of these men, especially if they are their brothers or sons?

[@evermore331]

How did you pace yourself while questioning and deconstructing? Did it happen all at once? If so, how did you retain your sense of self through that process?

[@lady8jane]

Did Calvin ever tell his professor what her story ultimately started inside of him?

[@beepbopboop3221]

Calvin, what is your favorite food there in NY? Are there any foods that your Moms' cooked in Utah that you miss?

[@emptyset2013]

Him having that “crack” moment in his philosophy class is such a huge reason why cults and cult-like groups don’t encourage their members to go to college. Alternative viewpoints and philosophy threaten the indoctrination. Great video!!!

[@shannap.lawnerd125]

Agreed 1000%. Ty.

[@JeantheSecond]

College students changing their political, religious, or sexual identity is a stereotype that is true, but not for the reason that people who accuse college professors of brainwashing students think. Students meet a larger variety of people in college, the brain makes leaps in development among 18-22 year olds, college teaches students how to research and think critically, college is the first time many students are away from home. There are so many reasons college students start questioning their beliefs and it’s not about the personal beliefs professors have. The only professor I had try to indoctrinate me was a professor who pushed his Christian beliefs.

[@904daniela]

Unfortunately, "other viewpoints" are no longer encouraged in higher education.

[@shannap.lawnerd125]

@@JeantheSecond SAME!! I grew up (& currently reside) in the Bible Belt, & the most I've been made to feel "less than" or "Other" was by the folks who called themselves Christians. Stay safe out there, be blessed!!

[@texasoutlook60]

@Jean the Second & Shanna I really hate to hear that but unfortunately being a Christian doesn't make one a Saint. We're humans just like the rest of the world, ha!

[@believer773]

With a childhood like his, Calvin could really have ended up in a different place. Glad he turned to be so adjusted and happy

[@sngray11]

It was refreshing to hear a male’s perspective on growing up in this cult. Thank you Shelise for having Calvin on to share some of his story with all of us. 💗

[@charm8167]

Look up what cult means in the dictionary definition because all religions are cult no matter what culture or religion you are following.

[@annawallace3383]

The analogy about the cave people actually blew my mind. I grew up in a devoutly southern baptist family. I went to college and it completely shifted my world view. When I've shared my contradictory beliefs with family, they say I went to college and was "indoctrinated" by the liberals. The irony of being accused of being indoctrinated me by the people who truly indoctrinated me is too sad.

[@fabigrossi2976]

That's why education is viewed as unnecessary or even dangerous to the more "conservative" people.

[@alyssatew9748]

I took AP world history in high school. It was more like world religions though and when I learned how so many different religions started and were formed I started questioning things. I grew up very southern Babtist and that classed turned my whole world view as a 14 year old.

[@ardenpeters4386]

one of my sons turned AGAINST US after college. NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION. COLLEGE BRAINWASHES YOUNG MINDS😢

[@beepboopbeep4801]

It's baffling to see the cognitive dissonance those people have. It's sad.

[@billhart3728]

Haha yeah I feel that. It’s too funny when they say that to you after you just agreed, just didn’t agree loud enough

[@lorrainedewaal3838]

He made me really ponder and reevaluate my life and personal philosophies. I’m 71, left the moron church at 55 and haven’t looked back. This young man has “it” together! I’ve listened to many people and read every self-help book there is-and he has insight and wisdom beyond his years and experiences. It was such valuable information thank you so much! ❤

[@s.c.2424]

To leave a church at 55 is amazing. I always hear of younger ppl leaving, but never older. That must have been very hard. Good for you!!

[@natewilson111]

Nothing better than a Saturday morning with cup of coffee, a view of the rainy backyard, and a discussion on FLDS crazy polygamy 😁

[@fighterck6241]

😊

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Haha love to hear it!

[@andreakokko5246]

It would blow the FLDS mind to find out Jesus was most likely dark skinned 😬😳😳

[@CultstoConsciousness]

SUCH A GREAT POINT

[@intensepassion3382]

And?

[@mab6122]

Same with any fundamentalist Christians… they don’t want to hear he was a Middle-Eastern Jew 😂 I’ve been told “he was a Christian!” NOPE, that came quite a bit later… read your Bible… 😅 “King of Jews” 😊

[@knitsandlit4886]

A joke that I love pulling out on them is, “what’s something that Christians think is in the Bible, but actually isn’t?” Answer: White people 🎉

[@katherinekelly5380]

@@knitsandlit4886👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 excellent point !

[@ianmayhew8539]

Oof. When he was talking about his relationship with his siblings, I felt that in my soul. I have 8 siblings (mainstream LDS; only me and one other are out) and that's exactly how I feel. Lots of shallow relationships and no real deep ones. To this day I have trouble making deep friendships because I just don't know how

[@keymind117]

Did it seem like the people in your church were hyperfixated on status? Like a lack of genuine interest in others other than to appeal to them in a certain way.

[@whitneysawyer483]

Basically fake relationships

[@Lucifersfursona]

“He’s not dead, he’s just in the other room” I got chills, that’s so genuinely scary.

[@paulan7218]

Yeah that’s about equal to the Mormon belief that if you don’t understand something, you should just put it on the shelf

[@darcymoon2109]

I dunno, I mean, the dead part is creepy. But I can see how it could be a comfort to someone to think - they aren’t gone, they’re just in the other room. Double meaning to either pretend they are alive and literally in the other room, or a way of saying they are in whatever comes next.

[@darcymoon2109]

@@paulan7218 Better to put it on the shelf until you get more info than to misunderstand something in ignorance. I am not mormon haha!

[@amanda7263]

I grew up Mormon, left the church at 15 and got my degree in philosophy, so I get it! 👏🏼👏🏼

[@sidstovell2177]

Wonderful!!

[@meredithgidley4067]

Wow, Calvin could have a future as a motivational speaker. His story moved me, can’t wait for part 2!

[@officialcalvinwayman]

Oo la la! Maybe I'll take this to heart ;)

[@archiesinclair6252]

Distresses almost as much as it interests. These stories remind me of something a young woman said in college. It pissed all the other girls off royally. But she was right. There'd been some talk about that book "the Lord of the flies". What would happen if the kids weren't rescued?...and if there were also girls? Her answer......"we would end up in the harem's of the biggest nastiest hunters. It's horrible and crap - but it's what would happen. There are no 'inalienable rights' we just have what people have fought for. And someone always wants to take it away...."

[@powderandpaint14]

Don't forget the societies that have existed in the world that were matriarchies though! Sometimes women hold the power.

[@archiesinclair6252]

@@powderandpaint14 that's correct. Always 'equality' has a hard time....still waiting for someone to do something about D.A.D jobs (dirty and dangerous lol). Thanks for the good response.

[@newgabe09]

@@powderandpaint14 Extremely rare. I visited a 'matrilineal' society where the women still hold the land/house rights. The men still controlled business/actual money and social behaviour apart from where people ate.

[@fairyspunfibers9098]

@Archie Sinclair That girl was spot-on in her answer. That is EXACTLY what would have happened. How was it that those foolish girls in the class thought it could/would be any other way? Yeah, they didn't know much about Real Life, did they?

[@archiesinclair6252]

@@fairyspunfibers9098 wishful thinking??...and the fallacy that if you know about something you must subscribe?? Who knows lol.....a more sensible thing would have been to point out the influence older matriarchal female's eventually sometimes have. Often exercised through grown up son's/grandson's etc etc. Thanks for the response.

[@shannap.lawnerd125]

JUST finished this, what an incredibly powerful testimony from this young man... I have seldom seen someone SO YOUNG who is SOOOOO self aware!!! VERY excited for part two, thank you both for this!!! See you soon!! 💪🏼🤓⚖

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you Shanna! I agree! Very introspective.

[@smallmeadow1]

This is such an insightful interview. An ancestor of mine was on the way to California from Virginia for the Gold Rush when he ran into Mormon missionaries. He became a polygamist with 4 wives and about 40 kids. My grandfather was in the first generation to be out of the church. I think his father might have been still practicing polygamy in the early 20th Century. I am truly interested in the impact of these experiences in later generations in terms of mental health.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Woah! How interesting!! Thanks for sharing that!

[@jameseglavin4]

So glad I found this channel, I really think it’s important and not just for survivors, those currently involved, or people who are just interested. The high control techniques cults use can be seen in other areas of life all the time, and if people were more aware of them, they would be better equipped to resist and dismantle these oppressive systems.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you, James! I’m happy it’s helpful to people of all types of backgrounds 😁 that’s very nice to hear. Welcome to C2C

[@jameseglavin4]

@@CultstoConsciousness keep up the great work ❤️

[@shirlzitting647]

@@jameseglavin4 kzbin.infoQvFTJvXdF8U?feature=shared

[@Vestianvon]

The cave story. While I was in a high demand religion I thought what I believed in was the outside world and the non-believers were in the cave seeing only the shadows of the greatness of the religion I was in. The cave story went backwards for me when I heard about it the first time. Later I made the decision to leave the religion, to "go to the cave" and "leave the outside world" and after that I realized it was the opposite. I was ready to leave "the great outside" because it didn't make sense to me anymore. I was fine going to the caves and be happy with the shadows but to my surprise it was the other way around and I couldn't be happier.

[@Luna_tia]

This interview is amazing!!! Calvin's perception shift in his philosophy class reminds me of my own journey out of my born-in religion of Catholicism. Very very powerful and I can't wait for part 2! 😄

[@jojowynne233]

Oh noooo! Another cliffhanger 😀 Calvin, thanks for sharing your story. You really have gained a lot of wisdom. The shadow puppet story was brilliant and of course would’ve had you thinking. I’m gobsmacked at the blatant racism in their teachings. That is absolutely despicable. I’m glad you have a good relationship with your siblings and a better one with your Dad. I’m so looking forward to Part 2. Shelise, you have become one of my favourite interviewers. Watching you interact with your guests is delightful. You obviously relate and come from a place of understanding. Just a small appreciation from me, and I’m also happy to see your subscriber numbers growing. ❤️

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you so much Jo Jo! It’s much appreciated! And so is your support and comments and views and thoughts 😁🙏

[@dcinkc58]

It was so awesome to hear Calvin relate his story about his birth of critical thinking because of Plato's "Allegory of the Cave." Looking forward to watching Part 2!

[@GrumpyVickyH]

Q1 as a young man did he feel the responsibility of plural marriage and fruitfulness was going to be awesome or too much burden for him? Q2 as a boy what did Calvin feel about the concept of his future priesthood, was it a birthright or privilege? Calvins story is fascinating as the male story is seldom discussed to my knowledge. Well done 👍🏼

[@ronnie-lynn]

Where I live in Canada there is Mr. Winston Blackmore, he has 150 children … Bountiful British Columbia. 🤯 I worked in the near by hospital. Babies born with genetic issues and the woman and girls just so uneducated about their health it broke my heart.

[@JPMJPM]

Is Bountiful heavily or 100% Mormon?

[@sidstovell2177]

BC is my soul home. Hope you're doing alright with the fires.

[@allisonsauder9038]

I’ve had my cave journey! I’m a relatively newly born liberal who is also a Christian. I have beliefs that run alongside but divergent from other Christians. I love your story of the cave. I’m out! Yet, I keep sticking my head in…sending notes…calling for my people.

[@loribethartist6353]

I’m a liberal Christian too (although I don’t support the evangelical nuts out there). It’s hard to find a place in today’s world 😢

[@shirlzitting647]

Huh? If you are liberal, you are not Christian. They are opposites. Maybe "Christian" in name only, but not in relation to the strict doctrine of Christ.

[@paulan7218]

Liberal Christian is an oxymoron

[@mischiefmanaged444]

That "crack" moment for me was at 12 years old when I read 'Jonathan Livingston Seagull' and it rang more true than what I was learning at church. (Church of the Brethren)

[@JPMJPM]

Wow.

[@djdingwall1]

Bring on part 2. Thank you Shelise and Calvin. ❤❤

[@carnespecter]

its a realization ive had being native american, its wild to me for white ppl to be so shocked by values common in mormonism and other regressive racist based beliefs when thats all ive ever been taught and treated. my mom very carefully told me abt how mormons hate people like us for our skin and culture and i have the experiences and other native friends who have faced this racism head on. the fact that it still shocks white ppl who think of themselves as being liberal is part of the problem that we struggle to snuff racism out in 2023

[@sibyllehartmann3417]

sharp as a whip person. I am hugely impressed! You are doing so much good for exposing all of this. Please talk again!

[@officialcalvinwayman]

❤

[@ViolAM3]

Yet, another FANTASTIC podcast/interview! I absolutely love your communication and interview styles, Shelise! Thank you to your guest for sharing his story and insights on cults.

[@ceb591]

Calvin has such great energy!

[@CultstoConsciousness]

He does!

[@melniee2551]

Every kid is happy when they get their own room, whether 44 sibling or 3 siblings.

[@chrisietalks]

Love the allegory of the cave. I remember you telling me this story and resonating with it sooooo hard! I tell this story often to others now when explaining what it's like to "wake up" from a cult.

[@officialcalvinwayman]

Hey! ✊

[@chrisietalks]

@@officialcalvinwayman hey !! 😘

[@franciebelcher4594]

This was an incredibly sad story. I am so glad he is doing better and I hope he lives happy long life

[@JulianaBittencourt24]

What an EXCELLENT conversation! On my way to part 2 now. ❤

[@heatheralbanese7919]

This is good because it is sooo confusing. I need to be constantly reminded about the differences.

[@shannap.lawnerd125]

Sorry I missed the live Shalise but catching up now!! Love what you are doing to help expose the MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF ABUSE within these cults & high control groups throughout the world!! 💪🏽🫶🏽😉⚖️ This is SO IMPORTANT!! 💯⚖️ Edited: Because punctuation matters! 🤓🤷🏻‍♀️

[@ChristineImagines]

I am struck by how similar Warren Jeff's rise to power is to David Miscavige (Scientology). It's one of the problems of having power consolidated in one, narcissistic individual who cannot bring themselves to develop a succession plan.

[@leeanncornett5246]

I was randomly searching vids about Warren Jeff's and it's like you read my mind bc this video was only minutes old when it popped up as the number one search result. Thanks girl! 😂

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Yaaaas! Thank you algorithm! Lol and thanks for watching!

[@officialcalvinwayman]

Woot woot

[@notyourboi4076]

I adore these longer episodes, thank you for putting them together for us

[@emilyishere9664]

Wow the story of the family dynamic just hit really hard! The dynamic was similar in my family. It’s not a polygamy family, but there was no social cohesion. Big families are not always great especially when it is religiously charged.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thanks for sharing that, Emily!🙏

[@chrisietalks]

Holy shit! What drove your family to allow you to go to college??? No one else wanted to go? I fully believe there are people, like you and me, on this planet who are put in these situations just to get out of them so we can be a light and lead others to freedom. Thanks for sharing your story, Calvin and thank you Shalise for your podcast!

[@officialcalvinwayman]

I totally feel that way-put in situations just to get out of them. To answer your first Q, it was a bit of a process for them to let me go. But telling them I wanted to go learn about business my grandfather thought that would be a good idea for someone in the Wayman community to have a business degree.

[@chrisietalks]

@@officialcalvinwayman ahhh so you appealed to their logical side, what would make you a better asset to he community. Nice thinking 😉

[@mikaylat2289]

@@officialcalvinwaymanas someone who is from Centennial it’s interesting to hear that you weren’t encouraged to go to college. My dad, older sister, and older brother went to college. It was pushed on us a lot to get an education. It’s crazy how different the Wayman group lived. I also learned to swim at a very young age! Just wild the differences in our childhoods.

[@officialcalvinwayman]

@@mikaylat2289 your story is just as valid too. That’s the tricky thing in all of this. Ultimately though it makes me happy to hear.

[@NancyCronk]

I have seen every video I could find on the internet about polygamous cults and have heard a lot about The Order, The AUB, Warren Jeff's followers (FLDS), etc. This is the first time I have heard of The Work. Fascinating stuff.

[@fountainsofgee2330]

What a great guest! This episode spoke to me in many different levels and I wasn't even raised religious.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

I love hearing that!!

[@sharonminer9350]

What a fascinating conversation!

[@jenniferviolette317]

I'm so proud of you both for standing up and taking back your individuality and power!

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you, Jennifer! 🥰

[@claudialemos9741]

It´s incredible that "The cave" by Plato written around 380 BC had such an impact in his life. That´s why knowledge is so scary for some groups.

[@officialcalvinwayman]

Right?? Crazy to think.

[@fernandabritto5526]

I am binge watching all of the videos. I am so invested. Thank you for your content and congrats on having so great guests.

[@marceladire]

Thanks for exist! Some of us do not grow in a cult or extreme church... but some time families and culture keeps us prisoner, and makes us feel bad for being what we are, and your words gave me a smile that I need it! and the strength to BE!!

[@CultstoConsciousness]

❤️❤️❤️

[@kittydream_4717]

Him talking about that philosophy class is so interesting! Its so cool to hear about major turing pionts in people's life, it always sound so spiritual in its own way, on the fundamental level as people, it inspires me to reevaluate life in an exiting way!

[@MustAvoidScurvy]

Yes!! A part 2!!! Calvin is a really interesting, smart and passionate person! I love your channel Shelise, thank you for sharing with us all of this knowledge ❤

[@bonnielucas1941]

Great interview, Shalise! Calvin is a brilliant young man, so insightful! Thank you both! 💞🕊️💚

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you, Bonnie! ❤️

[@stephanieamy3721]

Thank you Shelise for another fantastic interview and thank you Calvin for being so open and honest. I'm really looking forward to part two. All these episodes are so eye-opening and heartbreaking at the same time Calvin I wish you all the best for the future in everything you do.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you, Stephanie! 🙌

[@grosskid5664]

Just got HUGE goose bumps when you said that!

[@rachelh9150]

A "spectrum of cultiness" and a group getting more and more "cultie" the further you go rings VERY TRUE to me. I spent almost 20 years in a cult and from what I understand it continues to get MORE cultish than it was when I left in 2014. Ug. So glad I left.

[@JPMJPM]

I was in a small cultie group for a while myself, and it led to my first husband leaving me and my getting reprimanded at work. I couldn’t see myself from an objective view.

[@Momof5grannytomany]

I love to listen to your podcast its awesome allot of people dont understand what the flds does to children n woman. To me allot of people have no clue what their doing to families.

[@kabs1734]

This kills me… the LDS is really big in the pacific… they are into everything and have huge congregations who give everything they have (which is very little)…. And they don’t realise their skin colour will count against them. .. just upsets me so much.

[@Noblebird02]

I don't understand this: why are so many lovely Pasifika people Mormon? It's so racist

[@PhoenixRoseYT]

While my mom may have many flaws that harmed me, I will always be eternally grateful that she wasn’t religious (she believed in God and was spiritual but never any church stuff) and always taught me to not just tolerate, but accept and respect people of all backgrounds. We also lived in an extremely diverse area, where people were from all over the world. She also encouraged me to leave the state we lived in once I graduated high school, and we both ended up doing so. We’ve lived all over the country (separately), and I think it’s helped me so much in life, personally and professionally. When I got to college I was already super comfortable being around all these different people and socially had a great time. Because of sociopolitical circumstances, I learned so much about racism and how to not just be accepting of all people, but how to be anti-racist and pro-equity. I was already fairly left to begin with, and graduated college as a super leftist 😂 now I attend graduate school in the deep south, and it’s pretty amazing how sequestered people are. They spend their whole lives here, never thinking about life beyond the cave. I’m looking forward to leaving the cave again and going back into the real world.

[@barbsilvey3276]

How do you not have a TV show yet!?!?!❤️

[@CultstoConsciousness]

🙈 goals! 😁

[@shannap.lawnerd125]

Barb! You are a legend yourself ma’am. 😎😉💯💪🏽⚖️💋

[@barbsilvey3276]

You are second on my list behind A-A Ron for must see SPTV!!!

[@Steve-the-Reiki-guy]

Really enjoyed this one! Love hearing Calvin share his experiences.

[@MICCZECH]

I'm happy all these exmos found each other, they need the support to heal for sure

[@latishapenner4966]

This episode is so interesting to hear. The one thing i got from it was the 'one true church'. I grew up Holdeman Mennonite and I was always told at a early age, we are the one true church. I've never heard another religion/cult (LOL) say that. WOW

[@latishapenner4966]

Has there ever been a woman you hasn't been able to have children? And how was she 'looked' at.

[@amaiaormazabal1879]

And this is why philosophy is essential, so many people think it’s useless…

[@juliee593]

A really interesting episode! It's really visible how much Calvin has analysed his beliefs.

[@Suzanneyhearts]

I think he just confirmed to me that I would love to get another degree in philosophy! What a journey that story was. I am sketching and made a whole mind map of the things Calvin said.

[@jadedbelle4788]

Wow. This has given me a whole new perspective on a lot of things. So I work with some LDS followers here in Australia. One was the daughter of our manager. The daughter went on mission when she was around 20 for 18 months. Her mum would keep us updated on how she was doing. While on mission they are only allowed very limited contact with family. Like email once a month, one video/phone call once every 6 months or something. I made a comment that it must be hard for everyone with such little communication. The mum said yes but they are changing the rules so there is more communications allowed. I thought that was nice but now see that is probably a way for the church to make sure the missionaries stay on track through direction from home.

[@llddau]

But remember that LDS is not the same thing as FLDS.

[@LadyQuotes]

Plato has like, changed how I see the world. I still quote and reference him to this day.

[@Glitterwalrus]

Recently found your channel, great job! So many of the ideologies and philosophies sound like the Seventh Day Adventist culture I was raised in. Very reassuring to know I’m not the only one questioning what I was born into.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thanks and welcome to C2C!

[@billhart3728]

Thanks! I’m just hitting the tip jar. I’ve been enjoying the conversations

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Thank you, Bill! Much appreciated!

[@juliagulia6955]

I kind of feel like the Mormon church is racist presence as well. I live on the south side of Chicago and during one summer the missionaries came to my door oh, and I thought it would be great to do "Bible studies" with them. I was still a little naive at the time but I was well-versed in Mormon church history, The Book of Mormon, the Christian Bible. So one day I went over to the church and our chaperone was a black guy " I asked him how he got stuck in the LDS church. He laughed and said they gave him a week's wage when he was out of work and he had promised to attend. He told me he's just honoring his part of the bargain, but the people there are crazy and racist as f***". That summer learned so many interesting things. But with all the questions I asked it was evident that this would be the church for me if I wanted to give my power away, stuff my sexuality way down, change shitty diapers and be happy about it. So because I was 26 I would have to be lobotomized to join

[@jessilynneverlasting5079]

"The Battle that Rages for your Mind" pastor Carter Conlon great sermon❤✝️

[@suitov]

Calvin, your story of "the crack" (that appeared in your certainty/worldview) was wonderful. It felt totally true, it's a source of so so much hope that others will manage to leave the cave, and, as a bonus, it involved an awesome teacher (my mother's a teacher and I had a favourite teacher in secondary school; I have massive respect for them). Thanks for your story. If I could, I'd send your lecturer some flowers and a pretty shadow puppet.

[@Lemonade_Stand_]

If you're looking for another male perspective, Sam from Growing up in Polygamy (youtube) also grew up in the FLDS under Warren Jeffs and then converted to LDS where he met his wife and now theyve both left the religion completely.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Coming your way tomorrow!

[@mills5519]

I would love to hear an interview with one of the young men that were kicked out of the FLDS (Warren Jeff's) so that they couldn't vie for marriage to the young women. It has been almost 20 years since I talked to one of them, but the men that I talked too had fascinating stories.

[@mikaylat2289]

As someone who is from the same group as Calvin, we definitely grew up differently. He lived in Salt Lake, and I grew up in Centennial Park where the church was. We are all encouraged to go to college. My dad (who is 52 now) went to college. My husband has a double bachelors. It’s not uncommon at all. I learned to swim at a young age and didn’t have near as many restrictions. It’s interesting to hear his perspective because I’ve always been curious how the Wayman group lived.

[@YvonaLive4Love]

Wow fantastic interview!! One very interesting thing is how Calvin’s father stressed no favouritism amounts his wives compared to the “ Browns “ on the show Sister wives Kody Brown totally had his favourites so sorry to hear about his dad having cancer :( but good to hear positive things happened after that ❤

[@acatnamedm4529]

OMG the cliffhangers...well played, well played indeed.

[@squishy_cat2]

Unrelated but related. I am not from a polygamous family but I have 4 siblings and never have had my own room so it's a multichild family thing not just a ploy parent thing. Also just some parents for some reason don't understand that their kids require privacy. I once saw a woman in a plant group saying she would use a whole room just for plants and her kids could share a room and it triggered me to think she actively was taking the room from one of her kids.

[@lorireid2860]

My Baptist grandmother believes that having black skin is the mark of Cain for killing his brother. I was a blasphemous child when I suggested that the mark of Cain might be having white skin.

[@theresaconklin317]

Hope she is not too disappointed when she finds out Jesus is brown😊

[@jannetee4861]

Sooo good your conversation!!! Enjoying it! I grew up free and my mum, a bookseller would feed me all information, I sucked it up. I have always been interested in philosophy and studied sciences. Still- I ended up in a marriage with a pathological narcissist/sociopath and it took me over a decade to finally understand. And this understanding gets you to unravel yourself and your own programming- even without cultural, or religious/cultish weird shxx intertwined. Super fascinating. 2 points: I wonder how intelligence plays into unraveling your own psyche. Are some people just destined to be stuck because they cannot look behind the curtain? Secondly- if Calvin wants to get a psychologist into a conversation- make sure you get one that has cracked his/her own puzzle, otherwise you have a learned record playing. I had a wonderful therapist and she was shaking her head over some colleagues that weren’t capable of understanding that they weren’t applying the help they were offering to themselves. Keep up these beautiful, honest, open, funny and respectful conversations!! 👍👍🍀🍀

[@JPMJPM]

I’m just curious: Are you religious or an atheist? (I’m not judging, just wondering.) Thank you!

[@jannetee4861]

@@JPMJPM I probably call myself an atheist scientist fascinated by the grey areas where science (processed by human brains) slips into the unknown/not-understandable-yet-stuff. Religion to me means to follow words, beliefs and a god figure, stories regurgitated by other humans without questioning, so that's not me.

[@JPMJPM]

@@jannetee4861 I thought you might be. So am I.

[@kaylakunz8112]

The allegory of the cave story in my philosophy class when I was 18 was my first step to leaving Mormonism too haha.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Yaaaas Kayla! Love that!

[@sidstovell2177]

Great!!

[@fairyspunfibers9098]

Thank you, Calvin, for your amazing interview! Thank you, Shelise, for being such a good interviewer. Heading over to Part 2! ❤

[@professorg7387]

THE RACISM IS MIND-BLOWING 🤯 We used to here the slur ‘fence-sitter” in our small Midwest town growing up. Now, we finally understand how racist and disgusting it is to say! But swear words are something that is encoded during a very early phase in child development. So, that’s just NOT good. 😢

[@kellyreilly-robinson2130]

What’s important is you realized and changed

[@JPMJPM]

You understood “fence-sitter” to be a racist term? Until today I’d never heard that (but I am not Mormon). Do mainstream Mormons believe the fence-sitter story? Just curious.

[@djdingwall1]

Bring it on...YAAS!! Mind blowing stuff!

[@carolyngwee5987]

Wonderful fantastic potcast. I really love it. Such good knowledge.

[@MichaelYoder1961]

This was a great interview, Shelise! Thanks to you and Calvin. We hear a lot from women who escaped the FLDS, but little from men. Would be interesting to hear from a gay man who escaped (if you could find one willing to be interviewed). I'm sure that LGBT people were there, but silent.

[@Avyre]

I know this comment is a bit late relative to the video release, but I was so wondering if the Allegory of the Cave was going to come up, and lo, it did! I remember being so put upon when I learned it in class (also a kind of philosophy/sociology class) because we just. kept. talking about it. but it's been nearly 15 years since that class and I still catch myself going "It's very Allegory of the Cave". It's been a really great tool for myself to use as a touchstone of perspective, and it's great to see that it's had a similar affect for Calvin.

[@karissameyers147]

This is such great content and such an interesting discussion. Also you look so much like Paget Brewster (who is so delightful and gorgeous).

[@womensarmycorpsveteran2904]

I’m an ex-Mormon & the story he told about people of Color is exactly what I was taught. I clearly remember being taught that Gods chosen people were “white and delightsome”. We also had to memorise Joseph Smiths testimony where he was praying and he said “an angel of light appeared unto him” it has long since been changed because the bible states that Satan appears as an angel of light. I left my family because of serious abuse, lies, etc. and the church because they treated the situation as if I were the one causing the problems. I had run away 7 times to my maternal grandmother and finally after all those runaways, time in the county jail at 17 years old and then 3 months in juvenile detention, they finally let me live with my grandma. (My real parents were killed in a car accident when I was 10. The first research I did into the church was looking up “angel of light” in my grandma’s bible. What a shocker. Edit: I also remember when they changed to allowing people of Color to hold the priesthood. I was told by someone not in good standing with the church that they had to give them the priesthood because the missionary’s were going to countries and islands where there weren’t any white people.

[@SpringStarFangirl]

_snickering_ white Chosen People yeah right. We're still around, Smithy, and we sure as fuck ain't white. /lh (This isn't directed at you, by the way, I was just very amused by your comment.)

[@swkrissie]

Ex Mormon here; what the church was called then...My second great grandfather had 5 wives and 44 children. Jesse Nathanial Smith born December 2, 1834, (first cousin to Joseph Smith). Even though I asked about polygamy in the LDS religion, my parents denied our family participated. Several other GGF and Great uncles had plural wives, and went into hiding from the US government when it was outlawed. They did toe the line once the government backed off, but all the wives lived together in AZ once they left Utah.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Woah! That’s wild. Thanks for sharing that!

[@marciplouzek5966]

I was born and raised Mormon, in Utah, and I have NEVER heard "the devil controls the water" thing from another Mormon. In fact, 4 of the Mormon families in my neighborhood went to swimming lessons together every weekend in the summers in the '80s. 🤷🏼‍♀️

[@paulan7218]

The devil controls the water thing is not a Mormon belief. It’s a fundamentalist Mormon belief.

[@katherinekelly5380]

The first time I went to the Wildlife Park in San Diego, I was amazed to see none of the animals were in cages They were in enclosures so the lions couldn’t eat all the prey animals but there didn’t seem to be any barriers between the enclosure - it was mind blowing. The guide explained psychological barriers were used to keep the animals in their section, one example was this gazelle that could jump 10 feet but wouldn’t jump if it couldn’t see where it would land. So around its enclosure the land was angled at a steep enough angle that the gazelles wouldn’t jump - never underestimate a strong psychological barrier !

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Woaaaaah that’s crazy!

[@womenfluencer]

I feel like for the first time, I’m not crazy and I am not alone. I have ventured outside the cave and am questioning so much about my upbringing. I don’t know what thoughts are mine vs indoctrination. I never had a choice. I was born into the religion and my father was the evangelist and teacher. There was so much pressure on me to be the perfect Christian so that I didn’t bring negative perception of my dad. For the first time, you’ve explained exactly how I feel. It is terrifying. I keep thinking of the verse that says if you fall away, God gives you a powerful delusion and you can never go back. But I have seen the tree and I’m so afraid. I know that I can never go back.

[@CultstoConsciousness]

You’re not alone! Your feelings are valid! You can work through it and find the peace you are looking for outside the cave ❤️

[@jeannerountree952]

It sounds like his father had found out he had prostate cancer, which is a slow growing cancer and therefore if left untreated can spread. My husband who is 58 just had surgery to remove his prostate and with that comes quite a bit of side effects for which we are not worried about. At this time in our life with me, being the same age as my husband we are more concerned for his health than for what we do in the bedroom.

[@katwitanruna]

A spectrum of cultiness. I like it.

[@crystalmanuel4863]

Calvin is brilliant! I’ve never heard de-conversion explained so well.

[@officialcalvinwayman]

🙏

[@nafeesahtynetta]

Thank you guys for doing this.

[@jenshahhater]

enjoying all of this content 😊

[@CultstoConsciousness]

Glad to hear it, Lola! 😁

[@misterdiffiCULT1]

Hahaha, I remember playing the whole Lucifer and God war thing with a globe I had as a kid when i was like 4. So when he illustrated a similar story, I suddenly remembered this. So much fun. The shadows on the wall thing, though, dude...

[@abigailregan4118]

thanks for including more Q’s from the comments!! i’m not feeling very original to ask one tonight but i thoroughly enjoyed this convo. hope a follow up comes soon! i wanna hear more about sibling/family relationships, how did betrayal or solidarity function in this kind of family? would the kids snitch on each other and stuff or were unnecessary divisions between family seen as an potential offense to the church?

[@jodrichy]

Honestly this is how I feel in modern day society in a lot of ways. They control my basic human needs and I really don't have a choice because you ultimately need money.

[@caitlinhouse5808]

Wow, amazing insight. I love when people share a pivotal moment in their experience!