Cultural analysis of idle games

[@hellranger_fl2752]

as a cookie clicker “uber tryhard” it hurts when i see cookie clicker being called an idle game.

[@SamyliXD]

yea

[@hellranger_fl2752]

@SamyliXD all the cc pros showing up to say cc isn’t a idle game:

[@linuslucke3838]

Hi there

[@hellranger_fl2752]

@linuslucke3838 hello linus

[@linuslucke3838]

@hellranger_fl2752 while I do agree with your statement, having played some of the other games mentioned in this vid, I can tell you they aren't idle games either. In almost no (successfull) incremental game, you actually progress at a reasonable speed doing nothing for long periods of time due to the exponantial nature of incrementals Why people came up with the term idle games for these, idk

[@an_asp]

I think a lot of authors, including the author of this video, provide a remarkably poor description of the intrinsic and extrinsic rewards that drive the incremental and idle genres. You've clearly played a lot of these games to the point of having made your own, so it's kind of weird to hear this perspective. There's this narrative that the primary motivator for players of these games is "number go up, generate dopamine", but I think this couldn't be further from the truth. As you say, there's something that distinguishes incremental games from staring at a stopwatch. I'm not sure numbers going up is a particularly strong motivator for players in these games, certainly not for myself. Instead, I would characterize the primary reward system in these games as a mix of the extrinsic reward of unfolding game mechanics, and the intrinsic reward of optimization as a form of fun. Many classic and foundational incremental games, such as Candy Box and A Dark Room, highlight this with their relative numerical tameness. The core gameplay loop in these and most other incremental games is: 1) The player is given a set of actions they can take, often with little explanation. 2) The player explores the space of possible actions to understand how they work. 3) The player must work out a medium-term strategy of how to optimize their interaction with these systems in order to maximize their resource collection (inefficient use of these systems will cost precious time, or may prevent progress altogether if the player can't overcome an exponential scaling mechanic). 4) At some point, by performing the right sequence of actions or by collecting enough resources, new mechanics are added to the game, often containing radically different gameplay which must now be understood and optimized in tandem with the previous mechanics. You then loop back around. The joy in playing one of these games comes from exploring the mechanics of the game and solving the puzzle of optimization, which is a largely intrinsic reward, informed by the extrinsic reward the game dangles in front of you of unlocking a new gameplay system if you progress far enough (and sometimes new narrative elements as well). Seeing the numbers go up is primarily exciting because it provides feedback on your skill at the optimization puzzle ("Look at it go! I must have gotten it right!") and builds anticipation towards the next stage of gameplay ("Soon I'll get to see what happens when I press this big scary button!"). As another way to illustrate the way that I'm thinking about incremental games, I would argue that their closest sibling genre of games is the factory-builder. That cycle of exploration, optimization, and unfolding game mechanics is almost identical between incremental games and factory games, with the only real difference being a matter of how granular the player's interaction with the world is (and I've played quite a few incremental games that straddle the line; I think you could definitely argue for a much broader-reaching definition of "incremental game" that subsumes them all). Also, to be clear, I enjoyed the video overall! This was just a weird sticking point I couldn't get out of my head until I wrote it down. I wonder if there would be any difference in conclusions if one were to do the same analysis of the themes present in the genre from this alternative perspective.

[@user-sl6gn1ss8p]

I definitely agree with you, but I think there's something to be said about how different games straddle this line and the power that a more "extrinsic-focused" one can still have. But yeah, great writeup. Are there any games would you say do the discovery/optimization loop particularly well?

[@ciboria1]

Thank you for finally putting words on why I love them when they pull off therecipe well, and especially on the Puzzle element of how to optimize it this loop Also...It is a factory, in my phone

[@alexpinegamedesign]

@@an_asp Interesting discussion, though I disagree. I originally wanted to include a section about this in the video - Schreiber & Romero also claim the genre is about optimisation, as do some other authors - but decided it would steer too far from the central point, so here we go instead. Right off the bat, I have to clarify that - as I emphasised in the video - "number go up" is not the extrinsic reward in question. Extrinsic rewards in these games are created more generally by progress, and the reward created by seeing your cookie number go up is negligible compared to the extrinsic reward, say, of buying new buildings/upgrades. A stopwatch would make for a very poor extrinsic reward generator. I believe the intrinsic aspect of the genre is rather superficial, especially compared to other game genres. Optimisation is present, sure, but a vast majority of people play these games much more casually & as far as optimising production goes - if assumed to be a central feature, it does a poor job explaining most of the genre's design practices compared to extrinsic rewards. In fact, your example of factory building is apt here: Factorio is an example of what a game would actually look like if optimisation was made more important than extrinsic rewards. The optimisation process is far more compelling in Factorio, and the mechanics actually force the player to engage with this aspect rather than making it an optional cherry on top. I'm sure there are people who seriously optimise idle games and find the process intrinsically rewarding, but it would be hasty to assume this is a fundamental design incentive of the genre. Similarly, minmaxing RPG players might find it appalling that I claim RPG progression is " a primarily extrinsic motivator" - but they'd be projecting their play style on the design of the whole genre. Like in idle games, choosing progression paths in RPGs has an intrinsic component, but it's rarely the point. I ultimately chose not to talk about decision making in these games because I do not believe it constitutes a significant design factor. If we're looking for intrinsic aspects of idle games, we have to look no further than the curiosity involved in discovering new systems, flavour texts, and the like. Without these intrinsic factors, the extrinsic aspect of these games would quickly lose all appeal. It's admittedly a simplification to claim that idle games are purely extrinsic, but I can't think of any other genre where the extrinsic makes up for such a significant portion of the appeal, bar Zynga and the like. As you mention, there are games like Candy Box or Universal Paperclips that place heavier emphasis on this intrinsic discovery, but they are quite short and small compared to the genre's "canon". This is consistent with general characteristics of intrinsic/extrinsic design. In all fairness, most games I analyse in the video are from mid 2010s, when idle games exploded around CC. I recently started playing last year's Gnorp Apologue and it's much closer to what you're describing, though still very extrinsic. If idle games evolved in this direction, I think it would be a welcome change! Although I still insist that idle games are about as extrinsic as games come, I do hope this section of the video ages poorly and there comes a day when I can agree with your characterisation of the genre. Thanks for the thoughts and sorry for the long reply.

[@lukeszatmary1840]

I want to agree with an_asp's comment about optimization being an important element to enjoying these games as a fan of factorio/satisfactory/etc myself but... it just isn't really there 99% of the time. I do think exploring the mechanics are fun and that can be a reward, but they're generally called clickers because the mechanics in question are usually about clicking something that does a different kind of math to the big number. The optimization component is, in some games such as Antimatter Dimensions, straight up nixed in favor of a "max all" button which purchases your clickers in an optimized (or optimized enough) fashion. All that being said, I ultimately think you're right that these games are anti-capitalist in flavor (sometimes) but that their mechanical design prevents that satire from being total. They necessarily invoke tiny economies where time is exchanged for points and then points are exchanged for other things (which generally exchange time for points). My only real gripe with the argument is that I'm not sure I would call these rewards extrinsic. I agree with your take that the reward from buying upgrades is far greater than that from seeing the number go up, but I think that's inherent to the design and is an intrinsic reward as a consequence. I'm not even entirely sure I'm right about this; it feels like a semantic quibble in any case. I ultimately think the cultural element of your argument on where the games sit in society is much more important and it certainly makes Me think about these games in a different light! I tend to play them as something I can alt-tab over to at work on a break, so I can almost microdose game progress and now I'm starting to wonder if this is less like fun and more like idle consumption of a drug (ie: dopamine). The name would certainly indicate so...

[@xyntercept]

I would never guessed that you have less than 1000 subs by watching the video. This is really good Small correction: CC is not an idle game, it's an incremental game

[@Thecilveks]

God I fucking love cookies

[@Ryanisthere]

most artists are left leaning so it makes sense that alot of art like games would be political to some degree

[@Sunny_Haven]

This is a wonderful video! I so rarely see others talking about using gameplay to send a message, to the point where I completely forgot about that. I never realized that video games were even harder to make political because of that conflict with making the gameplay support the message. This is also just a well put-together video in general. I really enjoy the fact that you created your own idle game to use as an example (and it makes sense that you can do that considering you worked on an idle game!). Definitely subscribing :3

[@alexpinegamedesign]

@@Sunny_Haven Thanks! - though I can't take credit for the example idle game, which was coded in a few hours by the super smart CodedSakura, with me providing the images & text elements.

[@A-Spoto]

Well, Cookie Clicker is free to play, super popular, and has never introduced microtransactions, so I'd say it's definitely anti-capitalist.

[@Barvazonik]

Its not free on pc where the full game is

[@garlicbreadwarrior]

@@Barvazonikit is free though, the only difference between the free web version and the paid steam version is that the steam version comes with a soundtrack

[@tomsozolins486]

Well that’s crazy!

[@Leopoldcold]

What am I if I installed an auto clicker?

[@AdrianShephard-dc2vk]

felony

[@erykhollow4762]

Epic...

[@artursbumbieris6245]

😂😂😂Love that intro

[@StardvstVivi]

Another banger

[@Saiphel]

good!!!!

[@lePirateMan]

I would like to point out that incremental games and idle games are considered different genres in the incremental game community

[@SamyliXD]

such a random subject

[@BigBrain05]

The titel if this video is boring and bad same with thumbnail do more clickbate

[@alexpinegamedesign]

@@BigBrain05 no

[@VesperCromwell]

Then why did you click💀

[@user-sl6gn1ss8p]

@@alexpinegamedesign have you considered the extrinsic reward of number go up?

[@AdrianShephard-dc2vk]

2 year old