Curb Regulators & Free Sprung Balances

The best watches have free sprung balances, but making adjustments is more difficult. With curb regulators, adjustment is relatively easy but not for the perfectionist! What’s in your watch?

[@natemillsap7279]

I very much appreciate the straight-to-the-point videos. Great effort and result!

[@watchartsci]

Hey Nate! Thanks man! Cheers, Bill

[@richarddavis7548]

Great video Bill! Tremendously informative - I never really understood what is meant to be “free sprung”. Thanks!

[@watchartsci]

Hi Richard, thanks man! It's really funny in that there doesn't seem to be something that is the opposite of "free sprung" ... like "un-sprung" or "restricted sprung." Just "regulator". Cheers, Bill

[@everyones.shadow]

I appreciate all this work, Bill. Thanks.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Jeremy, you know I'm having fun! Thanks anyway...kindest regards, Bill

[@adammaisano7962]

Just found you, love your content! It’s really appreciated.

[@watchartsci]

Hey Adam, thanks man! Take care, Bill

[@blueshirtbuddah1665]

Very interesting as always Bill, thanks!

[@watchartsci]

You noticed Bruce that I included our traveling RLD! Did you and Richard ever touch base? Cheers, Bill

[@blueshirtbuddah1665]

Yes we did Bill. I’ll be shipping it on Saturday

[@officialwodega]

Newcomer to watch trading and the mechanics behind it. Was watching a video on a replica Patek Phillipe and wanted to find out more about curb regulators. Really informative video and I subscribed at the intro. Looking forward to watching you everyday and learning!!!!

[@watchartsci]

Evan, join us in our making our 'Breguet Nouveau' watch ... a watchmaking project for beginners. Take care, Bill

[@romanjeremy5156]

thank you bill I learned something today

[@watchartsci]

Hey Roman, thanks man! Cheers, Bill

[@nssomething8370]

Great video Bill.

[@watchartsci]

As always, NSsomething, the pleasure was mine! Kindest regards, Bill

[@WatchesAndPhotography]

Very cool! Just getting into the mechanical watch world and this was pretty straightforward and easy to understand the difference between the two.

[@watchartsci]

Welcome to the madness of watch collection User! Take care, Bill

[@WatchesAndPhotography]

@@watchartsci Thanks Bill, glad I landed on your channel. Subscribed. Noobie question, my Seiko is running fast. +25 seconds per day, would you consider that poor performance by todays standards? My Hamilton Khaki field mechanical with ETA movement runs +4 seconds per day which I am perfectly happy with.

[@watchartsci]

@@WatchesAndPhotography Most would consider +25 seconds time for adjustment. Could be a bit of magnetization ... check out this video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/gmW0e39vlK-ZldE With a Seiko running on a balance system with a curb regular, it could be a simple adjustment... here's a discussion that might help: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a5iQkmOLrZecn9E Take care, Bill

[@WatchesAndPhotography]

@@watchartsci thanks again Bill. Appreciate the replies and the quality and quantity of information you’ve been making available for everyone to access.

[@SevGW]

great video! and legendary FPJ hat!

[@watchartsci]

Thanks Severin! I wear the hat in the hopes that some will believe I know what I'm talking about. Take care and be safe, Bill😷

[@Thomaz-xi9pw]

Very informative video! Thanks a lot:)

[@watchartsci]

The pleasure is all mine Thomaz! Take care, Bill

[@The_Great_Hejaz]

Thanks sir that was informative

[@watchartsci]

أنا سعيد أنه كان مفيدًا لك، ابن الحجاز العظيم. اعتن بنفسك يا بيل

[@jimwdds]

I love my H Moser Endeavour Perpetual Calendar which uses an interchangable escapement module like most Mosers which saves a lot of time in servicing the watch.

[@watchartsci]

Have you had it serviced yet Jim? Experience with HMC service and price? With two Mosers now, I have to plan! Cheers, Bill

[@jimwdds]

@@watchartsci No, It's only a two months old. However, I like the idea that Moser provides factory tuned replacement escapement modules when the watch is serviced. I assume these modules are tuned by a specialist with thus the most experience at this specific task for the best uniformity of performance as well as saving time in reassembly.

[@watchartsci]

What I'm hoping, Jim, is that a serviced module is all ready to go when I send in my Endeavour and the serviced/over-hauled module will be dropped in and I'll get it right back. I know that my double-hairspring will be another story, though...😬 Cheers, Bill

[@jimwdds]

@@watchartsci My understanding is that the modules are stocked at Moser's service provider in New York and Swiss service facilities.

[@melody3741]

Honestly I think it's totally fair for a watchmaker to use regular regulating levers because the less time you're paying people to spend the time to regulate the balance wheel manually, the more time you can put towards interesting engineering and beautiful finishing on the watch. To me, that's well worth it.

[@watchartsci]

Melody... you're so practical.... something serious watch collector are not! Take care Bill

[@richarda9961]

This is a great video bill but it brings up another question how do you regulate the free sprung balance with all the screws is it done statically outside of the watch very interesting

[@watchartsci]

Hi Richard ... well, you adjust the screws around the balance or on the four corners of the balance spokes. The process is far beyond my pretentious skills in watchmaking, but here's an article on how to make the adjustment (there are lots of such articles, but this one is to the point.) www.garrick.co.uk/a-free-sprung-balance-the-garrick-way/ Cheers, Bill

[@robertfeast7691]

Great video Bill. I wonder what the advantage is of a free sprung movement. I tend to believe simple is best. I guess that's why free sprung moments cost more to service as the time involved must be alot longer.

[@watchartsci]

Hi Robert, thanks man! Let me quote George Daniels rather than pretend that I fully comprehend the details. -"If the spring is biased a little towards the inner pin it will rest upon it increasingly as the balance amplitude decreases and the short arcs will be quickened. The results are not sufficiently precise for a precision timekeeper and if the regulator is moved [by accident ...e.g., by bumping] the effect is changed."- The two downsides of regulators are 1) Not as precise as adjusting with the weights on the balance, and 2) If the watch is banged a little, it may move the regulator and throw off the watch's isochronism. Kindest regards, Bill

[@robertfeast7691]

@@watchartsci Thanks Bill. Makes sense.👍

[@jasonxu8175]

Great video thanks Bill! I have question, I see PP Rolex etc have already adopted fsb, while cheaper brands use index regulator due to cost and service concerns. But why some high end brands still use regulators even in their top of the line models? for example, VC dual escapement model, Roger Dubuis four sprung escapement model, they are priced at over $200k, so certainly not a cost issue. Are there any other considerations for sticking to the regulator? love to hear your thoughts on this, thanks a lot! Jason

[@watchartsci]

Jason, Patek has to use free sprung balances because their hairsprings are now made of inflexible silicon. Rolex and VC choose to do so for the reasons you'll find in George Daniels' "Watchmaking"- or to make service for their watches more dependent on their own services. Take care, Bill

[@jasonxu8175]

@@watchartsci Thanks Bill, I would like your thoughts on why some high horology brands such as VC, RD, Piaget, Chopard, still use curb regulators on some of their expensive models if free sprung is so superior? Thanks again

[@andystuart4667]

With the FSB, if you unscrew the weights a little, will that will slow down wheel? Bill, some of these aspects you cover are my favorite. I think I've now avoided some possible confusion

[@watchartsci]

Hi Andy, screwing and unscrewing the adjustment weights on a balance wheel takes more knowledge than I have. I know enough not to try it because every weight has another 'mirrored' weight on the opposite side; so you need keep the balanced wheel balanced. You need both special tools and knowledge to do it right. Curb regulators, though, are pretty straight forward, but you need to know what you're doing. I've adjusted lots of watches with curb regulators, but they're all inexpensive ones used in making my own watches. Take care and stay safe, Bill 😷

[@domokun938]

What do you think about the swatch powermatic-80 and Hamilton H-10 having free sprung regulators at sub $500 prices?

[@watchartsci]

Timothy, I looked at the Tissot with the Powermatic-80 ... that's a watch I want to find out more about ... and under $500 ... the ones I found were under $400! You've opened a new avenue to explore! Thank you!! Bill

[@domokun938]

@@watchartsci always a pleasure Bill. Look forward to your videos. I think the entry swatch brands are really pushing the value of their movements. 80 hours Power reserve, free sprung balance I believe and silicon hairsprings.

[@quintontse]

Hi Bill, why do you think vintage watches tend to have so many screws in the balance wheel whereas modern free sprung balances tend to only have 4 screws/weights?

[@watchartsci]

Quinton Tse, that's a good question. The ones with 4 weights on the spokes would seem to make it easier, but the several weights around the balance would allow for finder accuracy. I'm just not sure. Kindest regards, Bill

[@blainecole5452]

Only my Omega with calibre 3330 employs a free sprung balance. Alas, it has a solid case back. Now you have me wondering if Grand Seiko will ever produce a movement with free sprung balance.

[@watchartsci]

Yes Blaine, I should have mentioned that the Omega has a free sprung balance, but I didn't really know enough about it to say anything and wasn't sure if it was all models or only certain ones. Any insights on the? Thanks man, Bill

[@blainecole5452]

@@watchartsci That would require a good deal of research considering the number of calibres in the Omega catalog, But watch makers continue to innovate with free sprung balances, whereas the regulator balance appears to have reached a conclusion in its' development quillandpad.com/2017/12/11/schmidt-list-5-extraordinary-balance-wheels/

[@markn3586]

I think all the 8500 calibers and later coaxial calibers have a free sprung balance.

[@almclennan5975]

Great stuff Bill. By the way, I recall you are interested in constant force designs and the like. You might want to look at Armin Strom's gravity equal force (good, honest and transparent company). Certainly more affordable than a Gronefeld. Regards

[@everyones.shadow]

I'd be interested in Bill's thoughts too. Bill, if you haven't seen it already you can start with kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWjHaWCXf7Cge9U

[@watchartsci]

Al, Gröenfeld is at the top of my list (unless I can talk a friend into selling me one...), and I do like Amin Strom, but I'll have to learn more about gravity equal force ... sounds a bit like AS's retrograde....no? However, I cannot afford anything now after getting that H. Moser ... which has proven to be everything I had hoped! Cheers, Bill

[@leyay7540]

It just cuts out the strongest and weakest portion of the mainspring power supply. Probably practical but far less special nor complicated than a remontoir d'egalite.

[@almclennan5975]

@@leyay7540 sounds like the solution to the problem, but not complicated enough for some

[@cedarcanoe]

Bill, how come the bph speed of the balance wheel can be set EXACTLY to 21600, 28800 ? There never seems to be a deviation when put on a timegrapher. Thanks.

[@watchartsci]

Erik, I do not know. It must have to do with the character of the hairspring used. More research .... Cheers, Bill

[@nssomething8370]

@Cedar Canoe Are you talking about the bph that the timegrapher automatically detects? If so, the Timegrapher will detect the beat rate based on a reasonable range (i.e. it detects that your watch is running close to 28800) and then start giving you a reading against that number. Then the actual +/- indication will tell you how far off from that beat rate you are. It will also usually tell you about the amplitude and the beat error, i.e. how close the two oscillations are to eachother in actual time.

[@ihabkahnung]

strange phenomenon i encounter. after watching tons of vids and reading quite a few books my idiolect concerning watches is 70% english, 15% french and the rest is my mother tongue german. i dont even remember balance cock in germen right now.... funsies Bill.

[@watchartsci]

NoIdea, I would be very interested in finding the German for 'balance cock.' ... I'll look for it too! Cheers, Bill

[@melody3741]

Also, most people think of the entire field as watchmaking as the way that you do about free sprung balance regulating. Honestly, I would purchase a Rolex balance on its own and then just play around with it and make sure it's poised correctly and then try regulating it. I bet you that with some practice you can get it. I think it's a lot less complicated than you think it is.

[@watchartsci]

Melody, I don't think of Rolex balances much ... besides I can't see them ... except on the Prince. Take care Bill

[@leyay7540]

Technically the free-sprung structure is better, however well designed and finished regulators are more pleasing aesthetically.

[@watchartsci]

Leya, check out pp. 340-341 in George Daniels "Watchmaking." Cheers, Bill

[@leyay7540]

@@watchartsci Have I misunderstood something?

[@watchartsci]

No, I don't think so Leya. Check this out ... the real enigma: www.lang-und-heyne.de/en/caliber/caliber-vi/ Cheers, Bill

[@leyay7540]

@@watchartsci Why do you think it's an enigma?

[@watchartsci]

Maybe you know, Leya: The watch has both adjustment weights and a regulator. Can one be adjusted without the other? The complaint about regulators is that they screwed up the isochronous timing and possibly the amplitude. So it would seem that if the regulator were used for adjustments, the weights may have to be adjusted to reset the isochronous timing and amplitude. That's the enigma. If you know, let me know and a good reference! Thanks, Bill

[@bubbab7792]

👍👍👍

[@watchartsci]

🤟🤟🤟

[@randyallen2771]

Very worthwhile 5 minutes.

[@watchartsci]

Randy, I'm only worth 5 minutes a day.... Cheers, Bill

[@tippykaffu4047]

Most high-end german brands use swan neck regulators like GO and Lange. This stuff is some beautiful regulators. And I think most modified ETAs in swatch group brands remove the regulators. For example, Hamilton's modified ETAs don't have regulators.

[@watchartsci]

Tippy ... do you remember the kind of curb regulator used by Glashütte Mühle? Let me know. cheers, Bill

[@tippykaffu4047]

@@watchartsci They use swan neck adjustment. Despite being invented by the british, I think swan neck adjust are mostly used by german brands.

[@watchartsci]

Tippy did you see this video? kzbin.info/www/bejne/imTOaISKnd-ro7s Funny thing about German watchmakers is that they give more credit to the English than the Swiss or fellow Germans for innovation in watchmaking. Cheers, Bill

[@tippykaffu4047]

@@watchartsci Yeah, that is pretty funny. Oh it is a woodpecker neck

[@nssomething8370]

Fun fact, the Autotractor family JLC movements use the A. Lange in house hairspring, but laser welded at both ends and free sprung, while A. Lange themselves will use it with a regulator.

[@springinfialta106]

Old Philosophical Riddle: What is the difference between a duck? WatchArtSci: What is the difference between a watch with a curb regulator?

[@watchartsci]

Hey Fialta...well, I guess my answer lies in my Bovet Mono-Rattrapante: How is a single rattrapante, two? George Daniels lays it out quite succinctly in "Watchmaking" ... index to "Curb Regulator." Cheers, Bill

[@springinfialta106]

@@watchartsci Mine was just a bit of a snarky comment regarding your not always completing the sentences you start. I try real hard to gain some insights from your comments, but your roundabout way of talking makes it difficult.

[@watchartsci]

@SpringInFlalta ... I wasn't even aware I was doing that. Keep on my case and don't let me get away with any incomplete.... what was I saying? Cheers, Bill

[@springinfialta106]

@@watchartsci Near the very beginning of the video you started a sentence "What's the difference between a watch with a curb regulator..." and then went off on a tangent about George Daniels. I eventually got it that you were comparing the curb regulator to the free sprung balance. I've got a technical background but I'm not that mechanically inclined so the innerworkings of watches, although fascinating, is often a bit befuddling. Thanks for being one of the few channels that attempts to describe the meat of the watch.

[@tommyb5141]

A six minute very informative video... brilliant! Thank you Bill. BTW scratched my itch re: your wife’s Dunhill by nabbing a 1/4 century club Eaton/Rolex....

[@watchartsci]

Hey Tommy, which Eaton/Rolex did you get? Tonneau or Round? Cool watches. Cheers, Bill

[@tommyb5141]

WatchArtSci Hello Bill.... 14k yellow gold tonneau circa 1937 refurbished.... a little beauty.❤️

[@tommyb5141]

Rectangular not tonneau

[@watchartsci]

Yes, rectangle...got it! Cheers, Bill